IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2012-08-15

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th1ahi menesis, replaceafill, aelkner.16:30
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:31
th1aHow's it going aelkner?16:32
aelkneri fixed the empty cell A bug in importers yesterday16:33
aelkneralso, i changed the negative test in linked_sections.txt that took 30 seconds to a faster test16:34
aelknerboth changes are pushed to trunk16:34
aelknerso now i've turned to the flexible scoresystem feature we discussed last week16:35
aelknerunfortunately, cando's gradebook makes a lot of assumptions about the scoresystem16:37
aelknerit actually has a scoresystem attribute in the Skill object that is used in cando's gradebook views16:37
aelknerSkills objects live outside of schoolyears, or courses or sections for that matter16:38
th1aWE'RE FUCKED!16:40
th1aNobody ever listened to my explanation of how this all had to work.16:40
aelknerwhere's a blackboard to hit when we need one16:40
th1aSo, what's the upshot of this?16:40
th1aSo maybe I'm looking at this wrong.16:41
th1aYou don't really want to define this stuff by course, etc. anyhow.16:41
th1aThe score system should be attached to the skill.16:41
aelkneryeah, i was thinking that16:41
th1aThat's the way it should work anyhow.16:41
replaceafillif i may16:41
aelknerit's live core gradebook activities16:41
th1aThat's much more correct.16:41
aelknerreplaceafill, go ahead16:42
replaceafillthat scoresystem attr, which to me is a hack, comes from the gradebook16:42
replaceafillit's not cando's fault16:42
replaceafillbut i remember 2009 :D16:42
replaceafilldiscussing this with you two and ignas :D16:42
aelknerplease remind us of that discussion16:42
replaceafilland i remember we also concluded activities should carry their own scorsystems16:42
aelknerthey already do16:43
replaceafilland skills "simulate" activities16:43
replaceafillin the gradebook16:43
aelkneronly simulate, that's the problem16:43
aelknerwait, sorry, first i interrupt, second i'm contradicting myself16:43
aelknerplease continue16:44
replaceafillno, that's all :)16:44
aelkneroh, so th1a's point about skills having scoresystems is well taken16:44
aelknerif we keep our simulation logic16:44
aelknerand we assume a skill is forever tied to a scoresystem16:45
aelknerthen we are ok16:45
th1aYes, that is perfectly fine.16:45
th1aAssociating with courses was the wrong idea anyhow.16:45
aelknerwe just need to change the property to find the scoresystem differently16:45
aelknerinstead of hard-coded lookup in global container16:45
aelknerwe need to persist the scoresystem with the skill when we save it16:46
aelknerand the scoresystem that would be saved with the skill would be whatever the admin user16:46
aelknerhas selected as the cando scoresystem at the time, agreed?16:46
th1aI think it should be explicit.16:47
th1aWe don't need to push this to VA.16:47
th1aBut it should be in the october release.16:47
replaceafillimho it's ICourseSkill who should have the scoresystem attr16:48
replaceafillnot ISkill16:48
th1aWhat is ICourseSkill?16:48
aelknerclass CourseSkill(SpecificationDecoratorBase):16:48
replaceafillit's the intermediate object that allows us to bypass the required/optional attr16:49
replaceafillit's what courseskillsets contain16:49
th1aThis doesn't need to have anything to do with courses.16:50
th1aIn fact, it probably shouldn't, we really DON'T want the same skill scored two different ways.16:50
th1aWe REALLY DON'T.16:50
aelknerthat's true16:50
th1aI had forgotten about that possibility.16:50
aelknerit's the same ru;le we have for core gradebook activities16:51
aelknerit can't make sense to have the same activity scored two ways16:51
aelknerthat's why i sad we need to presist the scoresystem with the skill16:51
aelknerjust as we do with the core activities, same logic16:51
aelknerdoes that make sense?16:52
th1aIt does to me.16:52
th1aI just think it should be mostly explicitly set.16:52
aelknerwhen i said that above, you said, "I think it should be explicit"16:53
aelknerwhat did you mean16:53
th1aJust add a column to the importer for score system.16:53
th1aAnd add a field to the ttw form when you create a skill.16:53
aelknerok, so you agreed with everything except the 'use the current cando scoresystem' part, right?16:53
th1aAnd really I'd rather just have that form remember what score system you used last time and use that as the default rather than have  a separate "set cando score system" setting buried somewhere.16:54
aelkneroh, so no global view for setting the cando score system?16:55
aelknerok, so remembering what was used last time:16:56
aelknerthat would probably need to be an annotation of the person object16:56
aelknerremembered for the user, not for the app16:57
aelknerotherwise, if one user chooses a scoresystem and that becomes the app default16:57
aelknerthen the next user will be effected by that16:57
aelknerperhaps that's ok, it's your call16:57
aelknerit's probably only one user creating these skills anyway16:58
aelknerwhat do you think?16:58
th1aJust annotating the person is fine.16:58
aelknerok, as far as virginia goes, there's no issue, default behavior will prevail16:59
aelknerif a skill has no scoresystem, i.e., set to None16:59
aelknerit will default to standard cando score system17:00
aelknerthis way we need no evolution script17:00
aelknerand va still works17:00
th1aJust don't drop a change on them now.17:00
aelknerthat's the idea17:01
aelknerbtw, we're not so fucked as you may have thought because this is way simpler17:01
aelknersafer that skills have scoresystems forever17:01
th1aNo we are not fucked at all.  ;-)17:02
aelknersimpler in that we don't add unnecessary views to the system for managing what is currnet17:02
aelknerit's quite clean actually17:02
aelknerbtw, we don't have a scoresystems import sheet17:02
aelknerbut i guess we can assume the user will use the right id in that column17:03
th1aAgh.  Yes, you'll have to make one.17:03
th1aI guess.17:03
aelknerthat's a separate step though17:03
aelknerfor now, we can still have the column and accept the scoresystem id and throw not found error17:04
aelknerbtw, can the user leave it blank to default to standard cando sore system17:04
aelknerthat would be the case for most users, won't it?17:04
aelknerit would be friendly to not require entry when the answer is obvious17:05
th1aThere won't be a standard CanDo score system.17:05
th1aI would say that you should write a evolution script for VA that just assigns the right score system whenever we push this change to them,17:06
th1arather than make the whole thing make guesses forever.17:07
aelknerand you're thinking that setting the cell and copying it down the whole sheet is easy enough in excel, right?17:08
th1aYes... but we can just give VA a simple evolution script that sets it, right?17:09
aelknerin any event, we generate the Skills sheet for them, so it's just a matter of changing get_verso.py17:09
th1aOr that.17:09
th1aBut this will probably be pushed on them later in the fall.17:09
th1aEIther way.17:09
aelknerwe have to be careful about this17:10
th1aBut yes, consider a score system importer part of this task.17:10
aelknersaying that we can push it in the fall gets in the way of when we want to quickly deliver bug fixes17:10
th1aThat's what I'm saying, the whole thing shouldn't be pushed to VA at the beginning of the year.17:10
th1aWe just don't need to merge this to them right away.17:10
th1aThis whole thing is not really for them at all.17:11
th1aBut autism will probably need it, etc.17:11
th1aExactly when VA CTE gets it can be decided later.17:11
th1aWe're going to be continuing to work on CanDo stuff that isn't necessarily immediately pushed to the newly deployed VA instances.17:12
aelknerso this will be the first case in a while where i will develop code but not merge to trunk17:12
th1aYes, you should be working on that assumption.17:12
aelkneri will need to push this to a separate branch which we will keep arond for later merging17:12
aelkneri'll only make the changes that are needed in schooltool.cando17:14
aelknerand push to special branch17:14
aelknerwhen we want to push this to virginia, i think that's the time to worry about any evolve script17:14
aelknerif we decide we need it at that point17:14
aelknerother option is to have them reimport after rerunning get_Verso.py17:15
aelknerok, so i'm adding an annotation to Person called RECENT_CANDO_SCORESYSTEM17:16
aelknerif it's missing, then the skill add view will just have the dropdown say 'nothing selected' or whatever17:16
aelknerreplaceafill, is there a better name for the annotation since we all have to look at it as developers17:17
replaceafilli suck at picking names aelkner :)17:17
th1aI have no beef with it.17:17
replaceafillCURRENT_... maybe?17:17
replaceafillinstead of recent17:17
replaceafillwe use current already somewhere17:18
aelknercurrent worksheet17:18
aelknerand section17:18
aelknerthat would be consistent then17:18
aelknersee, you don't suck at it like you say you do :)17:18
aelknerok, i'm done then17:19
th1aThanks aelkner.17:20
replaceafilli cleaned the chart report code a little17:22
replaceafilli'm experimenting with selenium to write a test for it17:22
replaceafillthank God svg is markup :)17:22
replaceafilli'm moving stuff like colors to the python side17:23
replaceafillth1a, any thoughts on the autism report?17:23
replaceafillare we going to start with grading?17:24
th1aI guess we should.17:24
replaceafillah ok, i'm ready when you are17:24
th1aWell, basically it needs to become a gradebook view.17:25
th1aScores should move from the left to the right btw.17:25
replaceafillwe're going to copy their current form?17:25
th1aThe basic concept will be one row per skillset.17:26
replaceafillyou mean the old report17:26
th1aOne column per skill17:26
th1aThe cells will be labeled internally with gray-ed out skill labels.17:26
th1aWhich will be replaced when you score them.17:27
th1a(with the scores)17:27
th1aSo the skill columns won't really be columns.17:27
th1a(they will for autism)17:27
th1aFor starters just do17:27
th1aone row per skillset.17:27
th1aa cell per skill in the skillset to the right.17:28
th1aAs a grid.17:28
th1a(not spaced out like a form)17:28
th1aOK.  Cool.  I'm expecting a call from dwelsh.17:29
th1aTalk to you later.17:29
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:29
aelknerth1a, when can welsh have the section importer fix i pushed?18:05
aelkneri should have asked at the meeting when menesis was there18:05
aelknermenesis, ayt18:05
aelknerth1a, welsh was also asking about the cell A fix i just pushed to trunk18:08
aelknercan that be delivered to them soon as well?18:08
th1aWe didn't hear from menesis.18:16
th1aI'll send him an email.18:16
th1aaelkner:  You could let him test it on a demo instance.18:20
replaceafillth1a, i'm sync'ing the old autism branch with our new stuff btw18:21
replaceafillth1a, do you remember when are we going to have the rest of the autism skills?18:32
replaceafilli remember dwelsh saying that18:32
replaceafillok, pass/fail score system in place18:34
* replaceafill goes see th1a's previous explanation about the new view18:34
th1ahe's working on them right now.18:35
replaceafillah ok18:35
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th1aWe have some though, right?18:35
th1aAlso, remember we are switching the structure so that the skill = the context (1:1, etc)18:35
replaceafilli just need to adjust the spreadsheet to the new format18:35
replaceafillthat's the part i'm having trouble understanding18:36
replaceafillbut let me read the log again18:36
replaceafill(slowly) :)18:36
aelknerth1a, welsh doesn't need to test it, we went over it together18:37
aelknerhe just needs it delivered18:37
aelknerthat includes the empty cell A fix i mentioned18:37
aelknerand the section importer fix18:37
aelknerhow son can he have both of those?18:37
aelkneryou said menesis is working on them now, as in released today?18:38
menesisreplaceafill: where do I find a link to Virginia Section Report?18:39
replaceafillmenesis, skills gradebook18:39
replaceafillthe old one is called VA Section Report18:39
replaceafillthe new one is called Section Summary18:40
menesisaelkner: I am working on virginia release at the moment18:40
aelknerwill the cell A fix be part of that?18:40
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menesisand where is the skills gradebook?..18:41
replaceafillmenesis, CanDo tab18:42
replaceafillif the section's course has skills assigned, you'll see it18:42
replaceafillotherwise you'll only see the Projects one18:42
replaceafillpasswd: teacher18:43
menesisI don't see those reports in my instance18:45
menesisbut I don't have any skills in the gradebook18:45
replaceafillcheck the url18:45
replaceafillit should say Project something something18:45
menesisI get permission error when I try to add Skill18:46
menesiswhen I click on any skill in the "XXX Browse and Select Skill XXX" view18:46
replaceafillah yes, that's unfinished18:46
menesiswhy are there XXX in some titles?18:46
th1aTo keep us from forgetting...18:47
th1aYes, we do need to fix those.18:47
menesisI see that it works in test instance18:47
th1aThe priority here is getting the packaging pipeline running and the importer fixes out.18:48
th1aAnd letting them see a draft of the reports.18:48
th1aXXX's are ok.18:48
th1aAh, thanks.18:49
th1aWe've been spending a lot of time on it.18:49
menesisaelkner: importer fixes are in schooltool 2.2.1 that I should also do after virginia (today)18:50
menesisok I package whatever is finished18:51
aelknermenesis, does that mean welsh gets the cell A fix when he updates his instance?18:52
th1aOnce the package is built.18:52
aelkneroh, and that's not under our control, is that what you're saying?18:53
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aelkneri'll let dave post his priorities18:53
th1aaelkner:  menesis pushes the package to LP, lp builds it.18:54
th1aThere is a little delay.18:54
th1aEverything is fine.18:55
th1aDon't get Dave worked up.18:55
aelknerso dwelsh needs to know what to wait for before he does the apt-get update,18:55
dwelshDave is very happy with all the great work this team is doing:)18:55
th1ahi dwelsh.18:55
dwelshmain priority today is the two Alan fixes to the importers18:58
dwelshThe "Cell A" fix and the Section Importer fix18:58
dwelshgetting these into the package so we can download them18:58
dwelshand then get all the Arlington data imported18:59
dwelshThe other systems will follow us18:59
dwelshThen Glenda Lewis and I have created a shared document with our bug fix and minor feature priorities19:00
dwelshWe will keep this very up-to-date, so th1a can triage it.19:01
dwelshbut again, overall, you guys are doing an awesome job19:01
dwelshAnd the many CanDo users in Virginia are very excited about this new ST/CanDo version.19:01
dwelshOne last point... the Arlington teacher training on this version is two weeks from today.19:02
dwelshSo making sure all the data gets in this week remains highest priority19:02
dwelshMaking sure all basic functionality works in preparation for training will be top priority next week.19:03
dwelshMy sincere thank you to the whole team!!!19:03
th1aaelkner is working on plumbing necessary to autism -- for using two different score systems in CanDo -- but if there are fires to put out in the meantime he's the first call.19:06
dwelshwill do19:06
aelkneri'll put out any fires that welsh alerts me to19:07
dwelshdwelsh goes to lunch now; then finishes autism data (tasklists #2 & #3)19:07
dwelshwill send that this afternoon, in prep for autism meeting tomorrow, 2pm EST19:08
dwelsham meeting Glenda Lewis (CanDo trainer for all Virginia users besides Arlington) today at 3pm19:09
dwelshI'll make sure she works in the "Bugs & Fixes" document19:09
replaceafillth1a, zyt?19:13
replaceafillas manager19:13
replaceafillthat's the june version19:13
replaceafillof the imported skills19:14
replaceafillat that time we set the "contexts" as skillsets19:14
replaceafillG, N, 1:1, S19:14
replaceafilland all of them have the same number of skills19:14
replaceafilltoday, we're going to invert that, right?19:14
replaceafillso the old skill becomes a skillset19:15
replaceafilland the old skillset becomes a skill19:15
replaceafillor is this a "i didn't mean that at all" situation? :)19:16
th1aContexts are now skills.19:16
replaceafillgot it19:16
th1aI discussed this with them in VA.19:16
th1aWe just haven't gotten back to it.19:16
replaceafillwe don't have document structure for the autism center btw19:19
replaceafillwe're just using skillsets/skills for the moment19:19
th1aThere's not much of a structure.19:21
th1aThat may be it.19:21
replaceafilli wonder how the skills assignment view is going to react19:21
replaceafillwe'll see in a moment19:21
replaceafillth1a, i decide to write a script to create the autism xls20:01
replaceafillsince dwelsh will come with more20:01
replaceafillcopy/paste was kind of slow :/20:01
dwelshwhat format do you want the "more" in?20:01
replaceafillextra :D20:01
dwelshI used the old xls import format from CanDo 201120:01
replaceafilldwelsh, sure20:01
th1aextra what?20:01
replaceafillth1a, there are more skills than the one we have20:02
th1aOh, I didn't notice dwelsh was talking.20:02
th1aI thought replaceafill was talking to himself.20:02
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repIaceafillhm... what should I have for lunch?20:03
repIaceafillPerhaps some grilled pizza.20:04
replaceafilldamn you!20:04
repIaceafillI'm going to take jelkner for some Friday.20:04
replaceafilli'll come back to providence some day!20:04
repIaceafillHe's coming to visit.20:04
dwelshthe autism tasklist has groups, competencies and contexts.20:11
dwelshThat's an extra layer from standards VA CTE20:11
dwelsh(which only has groups and competencies in the tasklist20:11
*** repIaceafill is now known as th1a20:12
th1aIt is less layers but I won't quibble.20:12
dwelshone issue I want to raise tomorrow is whether to give each context just a check box20:13
dwelshor whether to give it a true scale, say 0-3 or 0-4.20:13
dwelshI learn towards a true scale, but it's whatever they want20:13
th1aIt doesn't make any difference from my end.20:14
th1aI think it is unnecessary complexity, particularly at the beginning, but it isn't really my problem.20:14
dwelshLet's let Celmer and his specialists hash it out20:15
dwelshThey know the kids; know the cases.20:15
replaceafillth1a, we need to give the autism center a dummy document structure20:38
replaceafillwe have a problem20:38
th1aDocument > group > comp > context ?20:38
replaceafillwith no nodes, it's not possible to assign skills to a course20:38
replaceafillit's also not possible to "navigate" the skillsets20:39
th1aDo these groups dwelsh refers to exist?20:39
th1aIsn't document a node?20:39
replaceafilli think he was talking "competency group"20:39
replaceafillas in skillset20:39
th1aDo they exist?20:39
th1aIs there anything above comp?20:40
replaceafillwell, i've created them as we agreed20:40
th1aand below doc?20:40
replaceafillhold on20:40
replaceafilllet me show you the spreadsheet20:40
dwelshyes, there is something above comp20:40
dwelshex. tasklist = basic skills20:40
dwelshgroup = Joint attention skills20:40
dwelshcomp = follows eye gaze20:41
dwelshcontext = 1:1, N, G, etc.20:41
replaceafillthis is what i've created so far:20:42
replaceafillth1a, is that what we're aiming for?20:42
dwelshwe're missing the competency group names20:44
th1aYes, we're missing those.20:44
th1aAlso, just for reference, I think every "course" here will have all the skills anyhow, right?20:45
dwelshI'm looking at that now.20:45
dwelshThe skills are slightly different in each course20:45
dwelshthe groups basically are the same20:45
dwelshthe groups ARE the same20:45
th1aOK, so dwelsh has to get replaceafill the info about tasklists and groups, which he does not have at all?20:47
replaceafilli have some20:47
replaceafillthe groups are in the docx i think20:47
dwelshI just resent the tasklist #1 -- Basic/Foundational Skills20:49
th1aWhat's the bike thing?20:50
th1aunder program area?20:50
replaceafillor the xls with their form20:53
replaceafillbut how are we going to insert them?20:53
replaceafillas nodes?20:53
dwelshjust left over from another tasklist20:53
replaceafillthere are 9 groups20:53
dwelshso the program area is now cluster20:53
dwelshand it should be "Autism"20:54
th1aIf there is only one program area we don't need it at all.20:54
replaceafillthe groups are in the first sheet in that version20:54
dwelshwell, it may be on a server with all the other clusters20:54
replaceafill(that's the old version)20:54
th1aIt is a different document.20:55
th1aSo those skillsets are just bumped up to being nodes.20:55
replaceafillhhmm i haven't received my email...20:56
replaceafillso "Greeting Skills" become a node20:56
replaceafillwith 9 skillsets associated20:57
replaceafilluser will have to assign several nodes to a course20:57
replaceafill9 assignments per course20:58
th1aI think we have doc > course > comp-group > skillset(comp) > skill(context)20:58
th1aWe'll probably twiddle the skill assignment a bit.20:58
replaceafilllet me create the layers/nodes to see if i got it right20:59
* th1a needs to get the kids settled.21:10
th1aLet me know when you have something replaceafill.21:30
replaceafillth1a, kk21:30
replaceafilladding layers/nodes right now21:30
replaceafilli think copy/paste was faster for this :)21:31
dwelshI just sent the two additional task lists.21:45
replaceafillthanks dwelsh21:47
replaceafilli'll update my xls with those21:47
th1aI'd think these are all required.21:50
replaceafillthey're optional21:51
replaceafilllet me think21:51
replaceafilli thought "they can mark it or not"21:51
replaceafilli'll go get lunch and start with the actual view in ~30mins21:52
replaceafilldwelsh, in the autism_complist2_emergent_skills_8-15-2012.xls file21:56
replaceafillshould the course be Emergent Skills?21:57
dwelshyes, the course is  "Emergent Skills"21:58
replaceafilland Functional Skills for the last one?21:58
dwelshI'll fix on my end too.21:59
dwelshThe 3rd course should be "Functional Skills"21:59
replaceafillgot it21:59
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* replaceafill is back22:38
replaceafillok, updating the skills xls again22:38
th1areplaceafill:  We really don't need to get these imports complete or perfect.23:21
replaceafillalmost done th1a23:22
replaceafillit's easier with dwelsh xls23:22 should build the spreadsheets from dicts ;)23:29
th1aWe're not exactly on schedule here replaceafill.23:47
replaceafillworking on the view th1a23:47
th1aI'm going to have to go make dinner in 15-30 minutes.23:48
replaceafilli'll send you something for you to review tonight23:48
th1aWhen do you have to break for dinner?23:48
replaceafillwhen i get hungry :)23:49
replaceafillin like 4 hours?23:49
th1aWell, I'm going out at 8:00, which is in 3 hours.23:49
replaceafilli have to go to the grocery store too23:49
th1aSo if I'm cooking and eating for the next hour and a half, then I can rejoin you.23:49
replaceafilli think i have it clear23:50
replaceafill(what you want)23:50
replaceafillbut i'll be here23:50
th1aAll right.23:50
th1aI'm going to go make dinner then and I'll be back in about an hour an a half to check in.23:50
th1aWe have until 2:00 and just need a demo at that point.23:50
replaceafilli'm not worried :)23:50
th1aI don't know.  ;-)23:51
replaceafillwe just need the gradebook, right?23:51
replaceafillwe're good23:51
th1aJust need to make sure it isn't a "Oh, no, that's not what I meant at all moment." all23:51
replaceafillno, i think i got it23:51
replaceafill(hope so) :D23:51
th1aCatch you in a bit.23:52
replaceafillsee u23:52

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