IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2011-07-20

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aksth1a: ping06:22
th1ahi aks.06:27
aksth1a: just to inform you that we conducted second training on SchoolTool for three of our pilot schools06:28
th1aHow did it go?06:28
aksth1a: it was a two days training (first day for admins, and second day for teachers)06:28
aksth1a: it went well, now we're planning a monitoring visit to the school to see how the school is working with SchoolTool06:28
th1aAny particular issues crop up in the training?06:31
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th1ahi aelkner, replaceafill, menesis.16:31
replaceafillgood morning16:31
aelknernote the + icons don't appear when not logged in as manager16:32
aelknerafter logging in and hitting the +, the add new term comes up16:32
aelkneronly cancel works, but i wanted your comments about the title/subtitle16:33
aelkneri was thinking about putting the start and end dates after the year title, but the font is so bug16:34
aelknerit would probably look awkward16:34
th1aWell, they should be hints for start and end date.16:34
th1aBut I suppose that is impossible.16:35
aelknernot impossible16:35
aelknerwe can set the hints to anything we want16:35
aelknereven dynamic hints are possible in updateWidgets, right replaceafill?16:35
replaceafillyou're already doing that16:36
aelknerin add school year, yes16:36
aelknernot yet in add term16:36
th1aSo we could do "The year starts %s." % year_start16:36
aelknerfor the start date hint?16:37
aelknerand "The year end %s." for the end date hint16:38
aelknerok, will do16:38
aelknerotherwise, any other comments?16:38
aelknerabout the placement of the + buttons in /terms?16:38
th1areplaceafill:  Do they look a little close to the text?16:39
replaceafillthey do16:39
replaceafillwhat if we float them to the right?16:40
replaceafilltoo much?16:40
aelknertoo far to the right may make them difficult to find for the less observant user16:41
th1aWe have lots of other examples of this kind of thing.16:41
th1aI'm just saying are they closer than our other edit, etc. icons?16:41
th1aDo we have a standard style for that?16:41
replaceafillusually the + buttons go in their own column in tables16:42
replaceafillwhy dont we put them in the Last day column?16:42
replaceafillcolspan=2 for the year title16:42
replaceafillbutton on last column16:42
th1aWhat about the edits?16:43
th1aBut yes, you're right, they can just go in their own column.16:43
th1aThen they get a header too, which gives a little more explanation.16:43
menesisI wanted to ask why schoolyear first/last day are not in the same columns as terms'16:43
menesisbut then there is nowhere to put the +16:44
th1aOh, that would make sense too!16:44
th1aWe have room.16:44
menesisas it is, the + is not very clear what it would add16:44
th1aFour columns.16:44
th1aPut the year dates in their columns.16:45
th1aFourth column is "Add Term"16:45
aelknernot Add New Term?16:45
aelknerthat's the mouseove i chose for the button16:45
th1aNo... that's redundant.16:46
aelknerso change the mouseover and the title of the add term form?16:47
aelkneri mean subtitle16:48
replaceafillaelkner why are the + buttons input['submit']s instead of <a> elements?16:49
th1aOh... I guess we need delete buttons too.16:50
th1aThat'll go in the term view.16:50
aelknerreplaceafill, i got the idea for rendering the + buttons from the relationship view16:51
aelknerthat uses <input type="image"...>16:52
th1aThe columns look weirdly aligned.16:52
th1aOr maybe it is some kind of optical illusion.16:52
th1aI guess it is.16:52
replaceafillaelkner making them <input type="image"> makes you need a form + logic to handle the redirect16:53
replaceafillthat's ok for the relationship views because you modify the state of the app16:53
replaceafillbut these are just redirects16:53
replaceafillan <a> would be simpler16:53
replaceafilldont you think?16:53
th1a<a> is more correct.16:54
aelkneri just wanted to get it to work, and i coulnd't find an example of an icon link in schooltool16:54
aelknergranted, i didn't look that hard :)16:54
replaceafillit's the same thing as the pencil links16:55
aelknerah, the pencils, thanks16:55
replaceafilljust change the pencil resource for the + resource :)16:55
aelknerok, i can do that later, after the design discussion is over16:55
aelknerth1a, anything else needs changing?16:56
aelknerok, that's it for me then16:57
th1aWell, I can't really make a practice term easily atm, so no at the moment.16:57
th1aTerm view is next?16:57
th1aWith delete view?16:57
th1aDelete action, that is.16:57
aelknersure, after add works, i'll do index.html for when the user clicks on a term in /terms16:58
aelknerthere i'll have the edit pencil and the delete action16:58
th1aSo you're set.16:59
th1areplaceafill, what about you?17:00
th1aI'm thinking about you and I diving into interventions.17:00
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th1aActually, I meant journal.17:00
replaceafillth1a sure17:00
th1aWell, except we probably can't create sections yet.17:01
th1aSo I guess there's no getting around that.17:01
th1aSo... courses and sections.17:01
replaceafillwould it work if i load existing sections?17:01
th1aEh, might as well just do them now.17:01
replaceafillare we going to create a /courses view?17:02
replaceafillto list all the years?17:03
replaceafilllike /term does17:03
replaceafiller, /terms17:03
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th1aWell, I think this will be our multi-page example.17:03
th1aWith the tertiary navigation.17:04
replaceafillah! one page per year17:04
th1aSo lets try that.17:05
replaceafillwe will need a filter widget right17:05
replaceafilllike /persons17:05
replaceafillin case you have many courses17:05
th1aOh... I suppose.17:06
th1aIt is kind of marginal.17:06
th1aI guess yes.17:06
replaceafillwhere is going to be the 'Add Course' action?17:07
replaceafilli guess that's it for that view, correct?17:08
replaceafillor am i forgetting something?17:09
* replaceafill goes to check the current courses view17:09
th1aI guess we haven't really been dealing with the import views.17:10
th1aNot that they're hard.17:10
replaceafilldelete from the course or in the courses table?17:10
th1aFrom the course.17:10
replaceafillwith a scary message :)17:10
replaceafilloh, courses have leaders too17:11
replaceafillall right, i'll work on /courses next17:12
th1aI think I'm going to try a quick screencast today to show off what we've been doing.17:14
th1aOK, that's it.17:15
th1aHow hot is it going to be today where you are, replaceafill?17:15
replaceafillit's rainy season here, not too hot17:16
th1aProbably hotter here.17:16
th1aAnd hotter still in Philly.17:16
replaceafill29 C top i guess17:16
th1aWe'll beat that!17:17
th1aStay cool.17:17
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:17
aelknerreplaceafill, a question17:37
aelknerwhy do we set the alt attribute in the img elements for edit icons?17:37
aelknerisn't that for when js is not enabled?17:37
replaceafillin case the image resource is not available17:38
replaceafillthe browser displays that text when it cannot find the image17:38
aelknerwhy would the image not be available?17:38
replaceafillsame for <img ...> tags17:38
aelknerwoldn't that be a bug anyway?17:38
replaceafillin case you insert a typo in the library or name...17:38
replaceafillit would17:39
th1aYou can turn images off in a browser.17:39
replaceafillah, that too17:39
th1aOr if the user is deaf.17:39
aelknerah, that's a reason17:39
th1aOr if you're at a terminal.17:39
aelknerwell, terminals couldn't use the app, no js, no app17:40
th1aWe should probably have some kind of accessibility audit at some point...17:40
replaceafillth1a +117:40
aelknerwe depend on js most forcefully, right?17:40
aelkneri suppose if there were js event converters for voice commands17:41
aelknerbut this is all a theoretical discussion of a UI that we have never considered17:41
aelkneranyway, i'll leave the alt in there as at least a comment17:42
aelknerth1a, so 'Add Term' is the image alt, how about the mouseover title?17:44
aelkner'Add a new term to this year'?17:44
aelknerAdd a new term to 2011?17:44
th1aDoes it need to be different?17:50
th1a"Add a new term to 2011" is probably best for both.17:50
th1aAlso, I believe alt is required by the HTML spec.17:53
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replaceafillit's required for images17:55
replaceafillnot for input buttons17:55
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replaceafillaelkner is changing to <a> anyway :)17:55
aelknerok, i'll make the alt "Add a new term to 2011" as well17:56
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replaceafillth1a zyt?19:04
replaceafilldo we want all those columns in the table19:05
replaceafilland is the title ok?19:05
replaceafillor do we want "Courses, 2011"19:05
replaceafillCourse being the title, and the year title the subtitle19:05
th1aI'd say ONLY course ID.19:06
replaceafilltitle, course id19:06
replaceafillsearch by both?19:07
th1aSort by both would be nice.19:07
replaceafillah, ok19:07
th1aI like the year in the title.19:08
th1aLike it is.19:08
replaceafillunfortunately these courses dont have ids :(19:10
replaceafillwill fix the add/edit forms in a moment19:10
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replaceafillth1a zyt?20:01
replaceafillcan you please fill the XXX? :)20:01
replaceafilland also, should 'Add' take you back to the /courses page?20:02
replaceafillor to the newly created course?20:02
replaceafill(i think we're redirecting back to containers, right?)20:02
th1aCourses: Add Course20:02
th1aI think we're going back to containers.20:03
th1aWhat do we do in person?20:03
* replaceafill goes to add a person :)20:03
th1aYeah... That's going to view the person.20:04
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* replaceafill goes to check resources...20:04
th1aI guess we're pretty consistently going to the view view.20:04
th1aYou know what we should be doing here though.20:05
replaceafilladd resource, equipment, location goes back to container20:05
th1aWe should be doing "add another" actions.20:05
th1aOn at least some of them.20:05
th1aMaybe not years.20:05
th1aTry that.20:05
replaceafillwe should in courses20:05
th1aKeep the Add20:06
th1a- Course20:06
th1aIn the sidebar.20:06
replaceafill- Courses?20:06
replaceafilli mean two Add links: Course and Courses20:06
th1aI'm saying, in the index view of a course.20:07
th1aYou still have Add: Course in the sidebar.20:07
th1aIt is a little less direct than in Persons.20:07
th1aBut adding people is an extreme case.20:07
replaceafilllet me see if i get it right: you want an action for adding a new course inside the course view?20:08
replaceafill(sorry if i misunderstood)20:09
th1aDoes that not make sense?20:10
replaceafillnot much to me, it makes more sense "Add multiple" in the /courses view20:10
th1aI mean, it is a little illogical, but useful.20:10
th1aIt is just that a lot of times you are adding a bunch at once.20:10
replaceafillbut isnt "Add multple" better for that?20:11
th1aWe could do what we do in Person now.20:11
* replaceafill goes to see person20:11
replaceafillth1a what do you mean by "what we do in Person now"?20:12
th1aSubmit | Submit and add | Cancel20:13
replaceafillth1a but that's in People20:13
replaceafillnot on Person20:13
th1aThat's what I meant.20:13
th1aAdd person.20:14
replaceafillSubmit and add = 'Add multiple' :)20:14
replaceafilli wasn't clear, sorry20:14
replaceafilland it makes sense in the container :)20:14
th1aPeople don't think that way anyhow.20:15
th1aThey don't know they're in the container.20:15
replaceafillthey will know they're looking at "Courses for 2012"20:15
th1aPeople don't care.20:15
th1aLet's try the add action in the course index.20:15
th1aIt is just a shortcut.20:16
th1aWhat we do in People is extreme because you don't really get enough confirmation.20:16
th1aBut if you're typing through 1000 students, that's probably ok (although we need a bit more).20:16
replaceafillsorry to be so dumb, but by "course index" you mean /courses, right?20:17
* replaceafill sees th1a sighing20:17
th1aNo... I mean course index, not courses index20:18
replaceafilllast question20:18
replaceafillwhat hints should we keep?20:18
replaceafillor improve?20:18
replaceafilltitle hint, gone20:18
replaceafilldescription hint, gone20:18
th1aSpell locally right.20:18
replaceafillwill do20:19
replaceafillkeep the last three?20:19
th1aOr just "Local course identifier."20:19
replaceafillah ok20:19
th1aLet's just get rid of the Course ID hint.20:20
th1aAnd change "Government ID" to "Alternate ID"20:20
th1aHint:  "Additional identifier for government tracking or other purposes."20:21
th1aHint:  "Additional identifier for outside tracking or other purposes."20:21
th1aIs that an int?20:21
replaceafillno, still an int20:21
replaceafillthere's a bug i remember20:22
replaceafillrelated to that20:22
th1aThis value must be an integer.20:22
th1a^ that20:22
replaceafillall right20:22
replaceafillthanks th1a20:22
th1aThank you replaceafill.20:22
replaceafillaelkner are you there?21:06
aelknerreplaceafill, tsup?21:24
replaceafillaelkner never mind, i found it :)21:24
aelknerany time i can help :)21:25
replaceafillaelkner do you know of a reason why we use updateWidgets to set labels and title instead of changing the titles and descriptions in the schemas?21:32
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aelknerreplaceafill, i'm operating from the assumption that we don't want to break the old skin tests21:51
aelkneri know we already have broken so many, but i don't think we want to do so intentionally21:52
th1aWe want a clean implementation first and foremost.21:52
aelknerwell, what's the deal with the old skin?21:52
replaceafilli think we should discuss it when yvl gets back21:53
aelknerdo we care about it being broken, or not?21:53
aelknergood idea21:53
th1aWe'll need tests on the new skin to pass eventually.21:53
th1aWe don't care about the old skin.21:53
aelknerwell, that's different, then21:53
aelknerth1a, so to be sure, are we officially abandoning support for the old skin and its tests?21:54
aelkneror can we wait until yvl gets back to make this decision?21:55
th1aDo we need the old skin tests for some reason?21:55
th1aWill they do something the new skin tests won't, other than testing deprecated views?21:56
aelknerlook, if we don't care about the old skin, then why create flourish in the first place21:56
aelknerwe could have more easily and quickly changed the old skin in place21:56
aelkneranyway, it seems like an open subject21:57
aelkneragain, let's wait for yvl21:57
replaceafillth1a sorry to interrupt, but i need your opinion
replaceafillaelkner +121:57
th1aLet me put it this way:  we should not compromise the implementation of the new skin to support old skin tests.21:57
th1aNo, look, this is not up in the air.21:57
th1aDo the new skin as well as possible.21:58
aelknerwe haven't been, the question was only how21:58
th1aDo not not do something in the new skin that would be better for the sake of old skin tests.21:58
th1areplaceafill: Can you move that second column over.  ;-)21:58
replaceafillah! ok21:59
aelknerth1a, just so you know, if old skin tests are broken, then old skin is no longer supported ny us21:59
aelknertests cover reality21:59
aelknerok, granted, if they only test for labels, ni issue21:59
replaceafillth1a is the title: subtitle ok?21:59
aelknerbut program exceptions, something else22:00
th1areplaceafill:  Yes.22:00
aelknerenough said22:00
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th1aaelkner:  I expect you to implement the new skin correctly.22:00
aelknerth1a, nobody called that into question22:02
aelknerhowever, that doesn't presuppose that we break the old skin22:02
th1aWhether or not we break the old skin is not a priority.22:02
aelknerstrange that we created flourish then22:03
aelknerenough sad22:03
replaceafill35% width for the labels22:06
th1aNo courses index yet?22:07
replaceafillyou mean ?22:07
th1aOh.... why isn't that contained by the year?22:07
replaceafill:| !!!22:08
replaceafillare we doing server/schoolyears/courses!?!?!22:08
th1aWhere were the year views going to go?22:08
replaceafillth1a i thought /courses was going to be multi-page22:08
th1aI mean, if you have a different strategy, I don't care what the URL is.22:08
th1aYes... one page in each year container.  ;-)22:09
replaceafilli was thinking of the same view with a navbar22:09
replaceafillto access each year22:09
replaceafillfor example:22:09
th1aYou can do it that way.22:09
replaceafillsame view22:09
replaceafillwith different year22:09
th1aThat's fine.22:09
replaceafillphew! :D22:10
th1aI thought keeping it in the year would be easier.22:10
replaceafillhhmm it's just one extra method22:10
replaceafillto get the year22:10
th1aIt is six of one, half-dozen of the other.22:10
th1aSame thing.22:11
th1a100 centimeters of one, 1 meter of the other.22:11
replaceafillkeep going...22:11
* th1a goes to poach some chicken.22:12
replaceafillth1a wait!22:12
replaceafilllast question22:12
replaceafillshould we add the "responsible parties" to the botton of the course view22:12
replaceafilllike with resources22:12
replaceafillresponsible parties = leaders :)22:13
th1aActually, "responsible parties" is probably as good as anything else here.22:28
th1aAre you restarting now?22:28
replaceafillhhmm, course view is public....22:30
replaceafillwe should protect the responsible parties table, right?22:30
th1aI guess we have to.22:30
replaceafillonly for managers22:30
th1aCan we add a little more explanatory text to that?22:30
th1a"These users can modify the course."22:32
th1aHow's that?22:32
replaceafillah! that's what leaders are for?!??!22:32
* replaceafill didnt know22:32
th1aThey can't do much with courses now because courses don't do much.22:33
replaceafillah! leaders is a crowd!22:35
replaceafillwhich affects resources, courses and groups22:35
* replaceafill just discovered the wheel ;)22:35
th1aYou know, when I use the "filter by" widget on the responsible parties page, I don't see the built-in groups.22:37
th1aOK.  Looking good.22:38
th1aI'd move the first name over to line up with the second column of the top table on the course index.22:39
replaceafillok, will do22:40
replaceafillth1a it's not a bug, it's a feature :D22:44
replaceafillthe groups displayed are only the ones with members22:44
replaceafillit's magic!22:44
replaceafillStudents is there now22:46
replaceafilli just added a student22:46
replaceafillStudents (1)22:46
* th1a out.22:50
* replaceafill out too22:50
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