IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2009-03-30

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Lumierehi ignas02:34
Lumierehappy very, very early morning02:34
ignasjust late at night02:34
ignas2:30 am02:35
Lumierethat's a better thing to hear02:35
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Lumierehi all16:10
th1ahi Lumiere.16:13
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th1ahi replaceafill, menesis, aelkner, ignas, yvl.16:30
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replaceafillgood morning everybody16:31
th1aignas: Where do we stand on releases?16:33
ignasth1a: the new code is in gutsy, will copy it to hardy, intrepid in a few minutes16:33
ignasinstalled the packages built from it on my machine16:34
ignasand it seems it works16:34
ignashaven't looked much at the jaunty release, menesis was investigating it while i was packaging for intrepid16:34
th1aWhen will these hit the PPA?16:34
ignasdepends on how fast PPA is16:34
ignasbut should hit PPA in 10-15 minutesi guess16:35
th1aOK.  Will I get those automatically?16:35
ignasafter i'll be done typing here ;)16:35
ignasyeah you will16:35
yvlhi guys16:35
ignasthough - i have not built the schooltool-2009 package and did not do schooltool.stapp2009spring16:35
ignasthe release did not change at all16:35
ignasso I am kind of doing it16:35
ignasto keep our new users confused less16:36
ignasso they'd be installing schooltool-200916:36
ignasnot that I like it, but at the moment we are stuck with this pattern :/16:36
th1aI'm confused.16:36
ignaswell - the idea was having different packages so we could make changes between releases16:37
ignasand allow our users to make the upgrade explicitly16:37
th1aI don't think that's a concern yet.16:37
ignasbut in the last 2 releases we did not really change anything16:37
th1aIn the stapp package specifically.16:37
ignasin there16:38
ignasand in schooltool-2008 schooltool-2009 thing16:38
ignasthe best case would be following the buildbot/trac pattern probably, but as always I am not sure we have enough time to prototype it and deploy it16:38
ignasand have no idea how to migrate users from one to the other...16:38
ignasi mean - how to upgrade schooltool-2008 package users to schooltool-server package16:39
th1aWell, at the moment I guess we don't have to worry about it.16:39
ignashmm, maybe we don't need to16:39
ignasi'll think a bit about it, while creating the 2009 package just in case ;)16:39
th1aCreate a 2009 package.16:39
th1aThe concern is this:16:39
th1awe're going to release 2009.10 in October.  Some users will say DO NOT WANT to upgrade in the middle of the semester.16:40
th1aThe smart ones, at least.16:40
th1aSo that should not be automatic.16:40
th1aAlthough... realistically, that's still not necessarily the use case.16:41
th1aBecause we're going to be releasing a string of improvements the rest of the year.16:41
th1aAdding reports, bug fixes, etc.16:41
ignasmy concern is this16:41
ignascurrent system is bad16:42
ignasi am not sure i can come up with a better one16:42
ignasand it's better to have a bad system, than none at all16:42
th1aI'm certainly not suggesting starting over.16:42
ignasi will talk to menesis and Lumiere and see if we can make something good16:43
th1aRealistically, I'm probably getting ahead of where we need to be.16:43
th1aRight now we just need good packages.16:43
ignasthough - schooltool-2008 will act precisely the way schooltool-2009 will, or the way mystical schooltool-server will...16:43
th1aRealistically, in a year we might be worrying about users who won't want to upgrade.16:43
ignasfrom the http://localhost:7080/ point of view16:44
ignasyeah, i know, i am more concerned about users installing schooltool-2008 in 2009 ;)16:44
th1aWe don't want to confuse people that way.16:44
th1aI guess that was your original point.16:45
ignasyeah, we'll do something, either what we did last year, or something better16:45
th1aOK.  What else?16:45
ignasnothing from me16:46
* ignas goes to copy packages in PPA16:46
th1aWhat do you forsee the rest of the week?16:46
ignaswell - if intrepid is good16:46
ignaspackage it for jaunty16:46
ignasif jaunty is good - add schooltool-* to jaunty also16:47
ignasand start going through bugs16:47
th1amenesis: Anything to add?16:47
menesisth1a: no, what ignas said16:47
th1aOh... I don't think we've announced that menesis is going to be working on packaging going forward.16:48
Lumierewe haven't :)16:48
th1aWould you like to introduce yourself, menesis?16:48
Lumiereif we're going to want to keep people from automatically upgrading, there will have to be different main packages... but I think schooltool-server could be like mail-server16:48
menesisI have a fixed pydebdep package for jaunty, but have not yet tried to push it to to try building packages16:49
menesisI am working in the same company as Ignas, pov.16:50
menesisI knew him since school16:50
menesishave not done packaging work yet but it was something that interests me so i took packaging part of Ignas' job16:51
th1aI'll have to figure out who is the official "release manager" going forward.  jinty may be becoming "release manager emeritus."16:51
th1aNot that these are important titles ;-)16:52
menesisjust last week back from consulting in Sweden16:52
th1aHow long were you there?16:52
menesis3+3 weeks16:53
menesiswith one week holiday back home16:53
th1aWas that with POV?16:53
menesisme and mgedmin went to help them build a new product16:55
* mgedmin waves16:56
th1ahi mgedmin.16:56
* th1a does not try to figure out Lithuanian politics.16:56
th1aOK, welcome menesis!16:57
th1aLumiere: I also just forwarded an email with some problems getting CanDo running from your instructions.16:58
th1areplaceafill: How are you?16:59
replaceafillhi, i met with welsh and he assign me two new bugs (or features)16:59
replaceafillhe wants them done by the end of the week16:59
replaceafillso Lumiere can release an update before the spring break17:00
th1aOK... I imagine you guys are keeping track of how much money you're spending...17:00
replaceafillwelsh sent me a format for the invoice i should sent u17:00
th1aEveryone can send me their invoices after Wednesday.17:01
replaceafilli guess i found a bug in the assignments gradebook17:01
th1aI saw that.17:01
replaceafilli didnt know if it was a valid usecase17:01
replaceafillbut Lumiere told me it is possible17:01
replaceafilli'll wait for welsh comments before trying to fix it17:02
replaceafilli have no questions today :)17:02
th1aOK.  Even if he doesn't want you to fix it now, make sure and file a bug.17:03
th1aSo we don't forget about it completely.17:03
replaceafillwill do that now17:03
LumiereI am looking at that question, and I am not sure how it clobbered it17:04
th1aDid you see the email?17:04
Lumiereok, it hasn't clobbered anything17:04
Lumiereit can't have overwritten anything17:05
Lumierethey're both running on the same port17:05
Lumierewe don't cover that in any documentation17:05
th1aBut she seems to have a different installation problem?17:06
th1aAs well.17:07
th1aaelkner is coming to visit.17:08
th1aDid you get the email about the flight, aelkner?17:08
aelkneri did.17:09
Lumiereth1a: I can't tell what happened then17:09
Lumierenone of our stuff has make install17:09
Lumiereor anything that would start it automatically17:10
ignaslisppaste5: url17:10
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.17:10
ignasmaybe i can look at it17:10
th1aLumiere: Why is she getting an importerror?17:10
th1aignas: I sent you the mail as well.17:10
th1aaelkner: So how are things coming on the reports?17:11
aelkneri made the change to the layout keys i talked about before17:11
aelknerso that it uses names rather than titles17:12
aelknerand i changed the way that the worksheet names get created for deployed worksheets17:12
aelknerso now it's ready for you to test out17:12
th1aSo when you get here we'll be able to walk through the whole process up to creating pdf's?17:13
aelknerwe could get into that even sooner if you'd like17:14
aelkneri figure the sprint would be best used for intensive back and forth17:14
th1aIt will probably be simpler to just do it in person.17:14
aelknerbut for now, i could walk you through how to use it17:14
aelknerand that way, you would know what we had before we got into how to change it17:15
th1aNah, let's wait.17:15
aelkneryou got enough things on your mind, eh?17:15
aelknerthe release does sound complicated17:15
th1aI'm more concerned with looking at the new debs.17:15
th1aaelkner: What else is on your plate then?17:16
aelknerwell, i got trunk merged back to my branch17:16
aelkneri had resolve conflicts in order to do that17:16
aelknerso i sent ignas an email requesting a merge back to trunk17:17
aelknerso that we have a clean main line once and for all17:17
LumiereI don't know that anyone uses anymore17:17
aelknerth1a: anyway, i don't have any features in mind until you see what i've done17:18
aelkneralso, do you have a picture of how the report card should look?17:18
ignasLumiere: delete it17:18
th1aLumiere: what should she be using?17:18
ignas"make run"17:18
th1aaelkner: I don't have a super-duper example.17:19
aelknerth1a: i can read over the report lab docs in the sort term, learning about format type stuff17:19
th1aaelkner: So what are you planning on doing the next three days?17:19
Lumierereplaceafill: can you svn delete in your branch17:19
aelknercan you tell, i'm trying to get that out of you17:19
th1aWell, there are some important bugs assigned to you.17:20
replaceafillLumiere, sure17:20
aelknerthere are?17:20
aelknerlet me check17:20
th1aActually, lots of bugs you've fixed but not updated as well.17:21
replaceafillLumiere, can i do it when i upload my new fix?17:21
Lumierejust mention it in log17:21
LumiereI am committing it to trunk17:21
aelkneri can update te status on the bugs17:21
Lumierewith a full log message17:21
replaceafillLumiere, ok17:21
th1aAnyhow, we need the default worksheet.17:21
aelkneri was about to inquire on that17:21
aelknerit is the first in the list17:22
aelkneri'm confused on how you want that17:22
th1aLet's get yvl in here -- we can discuss that bug afterwards.17:22
yvlFinished cleaning up the report testing17:23
yvlIgnas is merging it to trunk ~now17:23
yvlcleaning up the section linking after Ignas' feedback17:23
yvlso merge pending17:23
yvland got sick again :|17:23
yvltwo days out last week17:24
yvlsersiously, there's something floating in the air here17:24
th1aHere too...17:24
th1aWhat's the status with the report headers?17:24
yvldidn't change from last week17:25
yvlsorry guys17:25
th1aIt would be good if we could get that merged before Thursday so I can look at the completed report card with header.17:25
yvlok, will do17:25
yvlso that's it from my side17:26
th1aaelkner: So is the report card just a grid now?17:26
aelkneryeah, it has a header with just the title, and student name17:26
aelknerthen a horizontal rule, then the table17:27
aelknerthere's no logo17:27
th1aWe'll work on the design when you're here.17:27
aelknerbut i guess that's what yvl is working on17:27
th1aSo last night I got an interesting email from a guy who worked in the Peace Corps in Senegal.17:27
th1aHe and some colleagues created a spreadsheet which is used as the SIS in like 100 schools in Senegal.17:28
th1aHe sent me a copy of it.17:28
th1aI'm curious to see something that actually was deployed and worked in the developing world.17:28
th1aThe nice thing is theoretically we could work up an upgrade path to import their spreadsheet.17:29
th1aI'll send you guys copies once I get it running.17:29
th1aIt doesn't seem to work on OpenOffice though.17:30
aelknerso th1a, yvl sent me some links to get me started working on pdf testing17:30
th1aOK.  That's something to do as well.17:30
th1aHave a great week, guys!17:30
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:31
Lumiereth1a: I replied to the question17:31
aelkneryou, too17:31
yvltahnks, you too!17:31
th1aaelkner: give me a sec and then lets discuss the default worksheet thing.17:31
aelknerth1a: ok17:31
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yvlaelkner, Ignas says pdf testing is merged to trunk now17:33
aelkneryvl: thanks!17:33
yvlcomments are welcome; if anything broken / works weird with Reportlab - let me know17:34
yvlI really don't trust Reportlab :)17:34
yvlespecially after looking at it's code17:34
aelkneri'll let you know if anything comes up17:34
th1aSomeone needs an EU grant to reimplement ReportLab.17:34
th1aaelkner: OK, so basically when a teacher goes to the gradebook for a section the first time, "sheet1" should already exist and be visible.17:36
aelknerthat in addition to any deployed worksheets17:36
th1aYes, basically.17:37
th1aI'm not sure when the best time to create them is.17:37
aelkneryeah, i was looking at you comment in the bug report17:38
aelknerand i agree with your own statement that there was not a clear choice there17:38
aelknercould we do something that's minimal17:38
aelknerwhen you open a open office spreadsheet for the first time17:39
th1aThat's exactly what I want.17:39
aelknerthere's always the default sheet117:39
aelkneri got that17:39
aelknerso making sure that's the case is a smaller use case17:39
aelknerthen trying to think about terms, etc.17:39
aelkneror marking periods17:40
aelknerthat's where the confusion set in17:40
aelknerbut if you think about it17:40
aelknerthe reportsheets are really the application of that whoel marking period/term concept17:40
aelknerso maybe we have enough by having one default regular worksheet17:41
aelknerand whatever report sheets the admin sets up17:41
aelknerwhat do you think?17:41
th1aThat's fine.17:42
aelknernow, as for setting up the default worksheet17:42
th1aI'm just saying that teachers shouldn't see a blank page the first time they go to a section gradebook.17:42
aelknerso if we want to avoid evolution17:42
aelknerwe would need there to be a logic in the gradebook overview itself17:43
aelknerthat, before rendering an empty gradebook, it would create the 'sheet1'17:43
aelknerthis would mean that the user could never voluntarily create a blank gradebook17:44
aelkneras any attempt to delete the last worksheet would automatically result17:44
aelknerin a new 'sheet1' being create17:45
aelknerthis is not necessarily bad17:45
th1aCan you delete worksheets now?17:45
aelknernot report worksheet17:45
th1aHuh.  Was that my idea?17:45
aelknerwhich idea?17:46
aelknerallowing deletion17:46
th1aBeing able to delete worksheets.17:46
th1aI'm not sure that's a good idea.17:46
aelknergetting rid of the delete capability is easy to do in the view17:47
aelknerbut you need to be sure that once the user add a worksheet17:47
th1aThat's makes it easy for a lot of data to go poof.17:47
ignasth1a: copied packages, should work :)17:47
ignasth1a: got to run now17:47
th1athanks ignas.17:47
aelkneryou know what?  deleting worksheets isn't important to be able to do17:47
aelknerall they are is containers for activities17:48
aelknerone can change the title if one doesn't like it17:48
aelknerand one could remove all activities from it, too17:48
aelknerbut i can see that allowing the deletion of the worksheet as one easy action17:48
aelknerwould be too much ease of, "oops, i killed myself"17:49
aelkneri could get rid of the delete function from the worksheets overview then17:49
aelknerwell, of course that's what you want17:50
aelknerso, how about the gradebook overview itself adding the sheet117:50
aelknerdo you like that idea?17:51
th1aThat seems fine.17:51
aelknerto avoid evolution17:51
th1aCheck for a worksheet though, so that a new sheet1 won't be created if the name is changed.17:51
aelknerof course, my only reason to create sheet1 is if there are no sheets yet17:52
aelknerth1a: so until i see you on Thursday, i can work on the worksheet non-deletion and automatic sheet117:53
aelknerand i'll look over the pdf testing17:53
th1aSounds good.17:54
Lumiereth1a: does my answer make sense17:55
Lumiereon the cando issue?17:55
Lumiereshe never actually clobbered anything17:56
Lumiereshe had them running on the same port and start-cando is pre-buildout17:56
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th1aMy immediate response is to reassure both of us that she hasn't lost her data and worry about what went wrong on Monday.18:00
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