| jelkner | it is a bug if a student in my class can't log on to the system | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| dwelsh | security model problem | 00:00 |
| jstraw | jelkner: that is a problem for a school administrator | 00:00 |
| ignas | nope, not really, roles are more complex than a hierarchy | 00:00 |
| ignas | yeah, if student can't log in - he must go see the admin | 00:00 |
| jstraw | and the easiest thing is to poke the admin who resets it | 00:00 |
| jstraw | that;s how novell works | 00:00 |
| ignas | and admin who is an old unix geek will reset the password | 00:00 |
| th1a | Yes. | 00:00 |
| ignas | and the old unix geek will have his own password 32 symbols | 00:01 |
| th1a | You just have to bug the sys admin. | 00:01 |
| ignas | and will keep changing it every 2 days | 00:01 |
| th1a | That's how everything else works. | 00:01 |
| ignas | which none of the teachers will do | 00:01 |
| jstraw | I know of no systems where anyone except a school level admin | 00:01 |
| aelkner | you have to an admin user in oreder to change a password in unix | 00:01 |
| jstraw | is allowed to do anything like that | 00:01 |
| aelkner | so it should be the same way in schpooltool | 00:01 |
| dwelsh | Blackboard -- the biggest content delivery system out there | 00:01 |
| dwelsh | Teachers can reset student passwords, and it really helps | 00:02 |
| jstraw | what blackboard are you referring to | 00:02 |
| dwelsh | Otherwise, you always are stuck chasing after system admins. | 00:02 |
| jstraw | the APS one doesn't allow that | 00:02 |
| ignas | dwelsh, does blackboard store confidential demographics information? | 00:02 |
| jstraw | ignas: it can | 00:02 |
| aelkner | i bet teachers can't add admin users to their classes in Blackboard | 00:02 |
| dwelsh | jstraw: we should check that | 00:02 |
| dwelsh | I bet teachers can reset student passwords in our current Blackboard system | 00:02 |
| jstraw | ok... I am the lead teacher of 31_staff | 00:03 |
| dwelsh | aelkner solution: admins and teacher cannot be addded as students of a section | 00:04 |
| jelkner | the solution could be to prohibit admins from being students | 00:04 |
| dwelsh | they have to use other logons to do that | 00:04 |
| dwelsh | they just have two logons | 00:04 |
| jstraw | wow... I am wrong... they can change them (has to call Pat Teske now... I can change teachers passwords on bb) | 00:04 |
| dwelsh | How do you like your crow... steamed or broiled? | 00:05 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: it doesn't mean it is OK or proper | 00:05 |
| ignas | 2 logons? | 00:05 |
| jelkner | it is a very uncommon use case | 00:05 |
| dwelsh | Seriously... teachers will just stop helping students logon | 00:05 |
| jelkner | the use case of a student forgetting their password is *very* common | 00:05 |
| dwelsh | They don't have time to keep running to the admin | 00:05 |
| th1a | I'm going to vote "NO" on this, because a security breach is a much bigger threat to this entire project than the inconvenience of making a sys admin reset the password. | 00:05 |
| jstraw | this is rather easy | 00:06 |
| jstraw | the teacher sends an email to the help desk | 00:06 |
| ignas | yeah, if you want that - make all the teachers sys admins | 00:06 |
| ignas | if that sounds scary - well it should ;) | 00:06 |
| jelkner | ignas: you don't get it | 00:06 |
| jstraw | the help desk changes it and replies | 00:06 |
| jelkner | the problem is for the teacher to be able to conduct class | 00:07 |
| dwelsh | Roles implicitly contain the idea of hierarchy. | 00:07 |
| jelkner | every day i have students forget their passwords | 00:07 |
| ignas | dwelsh, we don't have roles | 00:07 |
| dwelsh | It is a big problem if we are not implementing the notion of hierarchy. | 00:07 |
| dwelsh | er... groups | 00:07 |
| ignas | dwelsh, no, not really our security system is a lot more complex than that | 00:08 |
| th1a | Yes... | 00:08 |
| ignas | dwelsh, some things can't be expressed through roles | 00:08 |
| th1a | it is designed to be flexible. | 00:08 |
| ignas | dwelsh, groups that is | 00:08 |
| ignas | and the way you want to say "no teachers can be students" is very limmiting | 00:08 |
| jelkner | th1a: and by being flexible, it is prohibiting us from doing what we need to do | 00:08 |
| ignas | jelkner, nope, you can easily do that | 00:08 |
| ignas | jelkner, but we don't want you to | 00:08 |
| th1a | Well, it is a question of what you want to prohibit. | 00:08 |
| th1a | We allow you to do lots of things with the structure of the school. | 00:09 |
| aelkner | all we need to do is this: | 00:09 |
| aelkner | teachers can only add non-admins to their classes | 00:09 |
| aelkner | if a student like matt is also an admin user | 00:09 |
| aelkner | then you create a second login for matt that is NOT and admin | 00:09 |
| aelkner | and only that user can be added to a section | 00:09 |
| ignas | jelkner, you can do it in cando in like 5-10 lines of code, maybe less | 00:09 |
| jelkner | cool | 00:09 |
| jelkner | than that is what we want to do | 00:09 |
| aelkner | it should be solved schooltool wide | 00:10 |
| jstraw | I *seriously* disagree with allowing this | 00:10 |
| ignas | nope | 00:10 |
| ignas | yep | 00:10 |
| th1a | It will never be in schooltool. | 00:10 |
| jstraw | it should not be in cando | 00:10 |
| jstraw | it is NOT something that should be in any professional app | 00:10 |
| ignas | i mean | 00:10 |
| ignas | why not make all teachers admins? | 00:10 |
| aelkner | Blackboard is the biggest in the business | 00:10 |
| ignas | if you want that? | 00:10 |
| jelkner | ok, enough of this | 00:11 |
| jstraw | aelkner: and Pat's looking into it now because it isn't right | 00:11 |
| jelkner | this is a policy issue not a technical one | 00:11 |
| jelkner | we will ask our higher ups | 00:11 |
| jelkner | and implement whatever they tell us | 00:11 |
| jstraw | jelkner: if you want teachers to have admin rights | 00:11 |
| jstraw | give them admin rights | 00:11 |
| jstraw | don't subvert the system for it | 00:11 |
| dwelsh | Let's table this | 00:12 |
| jstraw | we need to get some real admin users involved in user stories before doing something like that | 00:12 |
| jelkner | jstraw: you don't get it eiether | 00:12 |
| * th1a going to eat dinner. | 00:12 | |
| jelkner | we don't want them to be able to add courses | 00:12 |
| dwelsh | But while we're all here... can we talk about terms and their overlap??? | 00:12 |
| jstraw | jelkner: I do, I don't feel your right at all | 00:12 |
| aelkner | why should admin users be able to be added as students? | 00:12 |
| jelkner | we want them to teach their own classes | 00:12 |
| dwelsh | Another big issue from the pilot... | 00:12 |
| jstraw | aelkner: because they're taking professional development classes | 00:12 |
| dwelsh | Terms cannot overlap | 00:12 |
| ignas | jelkner, but you trust them not to change passwords whenever they want, so why not trust them not to add courses? | 00:12 |
| dwelsh | So should a term always be defined as a year in length | 00:12 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: no... that is on ignas's todo list already | 00:13 |
| dwelsh | and then the courses just described in the section names? | 00:13 |
| dwelsh | ignas & th1a: what's the timing on the resolution of that one? | 00:13 |
| ignas | 100% middle April, probably earlier | 00:14 |
| ignas | and it will be sections spanning more than one term | 00:14 |
| ignas | rather than overlaping terms | 00:14 |
| dwelsh | I don't get the logic of terms | 00:14 |
| dwelsh | Is there a quick explanation? | 00:14 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: "grading period" | 00:14 |
| ignas | simple enough | 00:14 |
| dwelsh | So how does that relate to course duration | 00:14 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: you make it span 2 terms | 00:14 |
| ignas | timetabling mostly | 00:15 |
| jstraw | and you have a course that is 2 grading periods long | 00:15 |
| dwelsh | A grading period in arlington is a quarter | 00:15 |
| ignas | in a lot of places sections get shuffled every term | 00:15 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: yes... but lets call it a grading period | 00:15 |
| ignas | so in a school year sections and timetables get reset 3 times, once each term | 00:15 |
| jstraw | because it may not be a quarter everywhere | 00:15 |
| ignas | which is why it's called term | 00:15 |
| ignas | not semester | 00:15 |
| ignas | trimester or quarter | 00:15 |
| ignas | but in effect in lithuania they'll be either semesters | 00:16 |
| ignas | or trimesters | 00:16 |
| dwelsh | a term is the duration of the course? | 00:16 |
| dwelsh | or a grading period? | 00:16 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: a grading period | 00:16 |
| jstraw | and a section can span terms | 00:16 |
| ignas | confusing course and section | 00:16 |
| dwelsh | that's seriously confusing | 00:16 |
| ignas | Course in schooltool is "Math 101" | 00:16 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: to you... makes sense to me | 00:16 |
| ignas | Section is "Jeff teaching Math 101 first term" | 00:17 |
| aelkner | th1a: if a term is a grading period, then why would report sheets need more than one activity | 00:17 |
| aelkner | i thought the activity was meant for the grading period | 00:17 |
| ignas | aelkner, that was a simplified explanation for swelsh | 00:17 |
| ignas | aelkner, terms can have multiple grading periods in it | 00:17 |
| ignas | terms should be as long as the shortest "section" is | 00:18 |
| jstraw | (for example interim reports in arlington) | 00:18 |
| ignas | most of the time | 00:18 |
| aelkner | so jstraw is not correct | 00:18 |
| dwelsh | so term is duration of the course | 00:18 |
| ignas | aelkner, he oversimplifies it | 00:18 |
| dwelsh | ? | 00:18 |
| aelkner | there is no 'most of the time' | 00:18 |
| jstraw | aelkner: I am, it is just that I simplify it to make it easier | 00:18 |
| ignas | dwelsh, if all courses are the same length - yes | 00:18 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: s/course/section/ | 00:18 |
| jstraw | if a section is 1 quarter in arlington it would be 1 term | 00:18 |
| jstraw | if a section is 1 semester it would span 2 terms | 00:19 |
| jstraw | if it is a year long section it spans 4 terms | 00:19 |
| aelkner | that would make a term a grading period | 00:19 |
| aelkner | which is it? | 00:19 |
| jstraw | but there is also an interim report that can be sent out at half period in arlington... but it isn't an actual final grade | 00:19 |
| dwelsh | so the logic of term is that it is needed for the gradebook? | 00:20 |
| aelkner | sections do not span terms | 00:20 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: and time tables | 00:20 |
| dwelsh | that's the period of time of the gradebook window? | 00:20 |
| aelkner | they BELONG to them | 00:20 |
| jstraw | aelkner: they WILL by april | 00:20 |
| ignas | aelkner, yep, 2 sections connected | 00:20 |
| jstraw | (17:14:07) ignas: 100% middle April, probably earlier | 00:20 |
| ignas | aelkner, dwelsh will probably think it's the same section, you will know it's 2 different sections ;) | 00:20 |
| jstraw | and dwelsh should think it is 1 section... users shouldn't have any idea that they're different imo | 00:21 |
| ignas | jstraw, they can notice it if they suddenly delete a student from one of the sections | 00:21 |
| ignas | jstraw, but that's the point of having them separate | 00:21 |
| aelkner | users navigate to terms, then secitons within a term | 00:21 |
| ignas | jstraw, so you would not lose old grading data, if you lose a student in the last term | 00:21 |
| jstraw | yea | 00:22 |
| jstraw | although... most systems never delete... they just deactivate :) | 00:22 |
| ignas | aelkner, users, or teachers for that matter, click on their "home" then click on a section they are teaching | 00:22 |
| ignas | jstraw, deleting user vs removing him from a section\ | 00:22 |
| jelkner | An academic term is a division of an academic year, the time during which a school, college or university holds classes. These divisions may be called 'terms', 'semesters', 'quarters', or 'trimesters', depending on the institution and the country. | 00:23 |
| jstraw | jelkner: and? | 00:23 |
| ignas | jelkner, that was accurate ;) | 00:23 |
| jstraw | sounds like what I said 5 minutes ago too | 00:23 |
| ignas | jstraw, but you did not sound like wikipedia, did you? | 00:24 |
| * jstraw notes that he was sick today... and is not a happy camper | 00:24 | |
| dwelsh | The two concepts are "course duration" and "grading period" | 00:24 |
| jstraw | ignas: I didn't want/need to | 00:24 |
| dwelsh | Term as I understand it means "course duration" | 00:24 |
| ignas | jstraw, :) | 00:24 |
| dwelsh | The is the most common dictionary definition | 00:24 |
| aelkner | so a term in that sense COULD have more than one grading period | 00:24 |
| dwelsh | so it's a little confusing, using "terms" for "grading periods" | 00:24 |
| aelkner | hense the need for report sheet actitities | 00:24 |
| aelkner | ? | 00:24 |
| ignas | aelkner, grading periods match terms most of the time, but not always and not in all countries | 00:25 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: jelkner's wikipedia-fu disagrees with you | 00:25 |
| dwelsh | but that being said, we have a "course duration" with one or more "grading periods" | 00:25 |
| jstraw | jelkner, dwelsh, aelkner: please remember that SchoolTool must work globally so it can't be limited to US style only | 00:25 |
| jelkner | the problem is with secondary vs. post-secondary (the wikipedia one) usage | 00:26 |
| jstraw | at some level... projects generate their own lingo and define them | 00:26 |
| ignas | which we did | 00:27 |
| ignas | somewhere on schooltool.org | 00:27 |
| jstraw | so lets use what we have | 00:27 |
| jstraw | and get everyone to use it | 00:27 |
| jstraw | http://www.schooltool.org/documentation/glossary/ | 00:28 |
| jelkner | anyway, so that we don't end up in another semantic dead end | 00:28 |
| jelkner | let's talk about behavior | 00:29 |
| jelkner | we will need the following policy requirements | 00:29 |
| jelkner | 1. everyone graded each quarter | 00:29 |
| jelkner | 2. seniors only given a semester grade | 00:29 |
| jelkner | 3. everyone given a final grade in a semester class | 00:30 |
| jelkner | 4. everyone in a year long class given a final grade | 00:30 |
| jstraw | when did 2 ever come to pass? | 00:30 |
| jelkner | yes | 00:30 |
| jelkner | we need to do that now | 00:30 |
| jstraw | why and for what purpose? | 00:30 |
| jelkner | for colleges | 00:30 |
| jstraw | jelkner: I think you still misunderstand how terms work | 00:31 |
| ignas | jstraw, i don't think it matters for these requirements | 00:31 |
| jstraw | ignas: 2 makes no sense to me | 00:31 |
| jstraw | and 3 and 4 are the same | 00:32 |
| jstraw | everyone gets a final grade at the end of a section | 00:32 |
| jstraw | 1 is a grade is reported at each term's end | 00:32 |
| jstraw | 2 is ????????? | 00:32 |
| dwelsh | So the problem now if I define a Fall term, and then have a class that continues to the Spring | 00:33 |
| dwelsh | is that I have no easy way to copy over the sections with its students and assignments to the Spring? | 00:33 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: you can't do anything about it until ignas writes the update that lets a section span a term | 00:33 |
| dwelsh | ok. I think I understand. | 00:34 |
| jstraw | which as he said early on is by mid-april | 00:34 |
| ignas | if you could put the 1,2,3,4 into a nice functional test | 00:34 |
| ignas | so Alan and I could work on it with an actual usecase in mind | 00:34 |
| ignas | it would be nice | 00:34 |
| jstraw | btw, if you had waited till tomorrow to talk about these | 00:34 |
| jstraw | I would have walked you through basicly how all that stuff works | 00:35 |
| dwelsh | Well, I dragged you guys into this because of the VA State user stories that we are working on now. | 00:35 |
| jstraw | yes... those were supposed to be looked at tomorrow | 00:35 |
| aelkner | jstraw: ignas would not be here tomorrow | 00:36 |
| jstraw | did you ask? | 00:36 |
| aelkner | yep | 00:36 |
| ignas | aelkner, i can be here tomorrow if you *need* me | 00:36 |
| aelkner | we're here now, so i wouldn't ask :) | 00:36 |
| jstraw | dwelsh: [17:37:09] pteske: It should be fixed now. For any user they can only change their own password. Teachers should not be able to change student passwords or vice-a-versa. | 00:38 |
| jstraw | so our BB *does* now block teacher changing students | 00:39 |
| ignas | jstraw, you made my day | 00:41 |
| jstraw | yw | 00:41 |
| jelkner | https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/cando/+bug/335667 | 01:05 |
| jelkner | ok that's it replaceafill | 01:06 |
| jelkner | the last thing we talked about has been submitted as a blueprint: | 01:07 |
| jelkner | https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/cando/+spec/iep | 01:07 |
| jelkner | which we can talk more about in the beginning of the summer | 01:07 |
| replaceafill | ah ok | 01:07 |
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| ignas | good night | 01:16 |
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| replaceafill | bye everybody | 01:29 |
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| jelkner | replaceafill: hey man | 20:06 |
| replaceafill | jelkner, mr elkner | 20:06 |
| jstraw | hi | 20:06 |
| replaceafill | hey jstraw | 20:06 |
| replaceafill | jstraw, question about the cando section of the schooltool book | 20:07 |
| jstraw | yea? | 20:07 |
| jstraw | I wrote that in 3 hours | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | the installation section | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | wow | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | oh sorry the starting the application section | 20:07 |
| jstraw | yea | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | doesnt show how to start the application | 20:07 |
| jstraw | oops! :) | 20:07 |
| replaceafill | make run | 20:08 |
| replaceafill | :) | 20:08 |
| * jelkner goes to grab dwelsh | 20:08 | |
| jelkner | so we can get this show on the road! | 20:08 |
| jstraw | actually I usually have people do bin/start-schooltool-instance instance | 20:08 |
| replaceafill | :O | 20:08 |
| jstraw | because it is long-term safer to know what make run does | 20:09 |
| replaceafill | yes | 20:09 |
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| * dwelsh is not really here yet | 20:13 | |
| dwelsh | jelkner logged him in so we can be ready for him | 20:13 |
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| jelkner | so, we are all here | 20:31 |
| jelkner | but we are having a heated discussion on terms | 20:32 |
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| jstraw | replaceafill: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/cando/+bug/335592 | 21:06 |
| dwelsh | https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/cando/+bug/335592 | 21:06 |
| jstraw | I agree that is easy to do | 21:06 |
| replaceafill | https://bugs.launchpad.net/cando/+bug/335618 | 21:07 |
| dwelsh | https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/cando/+bug/335618 | 21:08 |
| replaceafill | https://bugs.launchpad.net/cando/+bug/335616 | 21:08 |
| dwelsh | agreed. #335616 is good. | 21:09 |
| replaceafill | cool | 21:10 |
| dwelsh | https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/cando/+bug/335667 | 21:10 |
| dwelsh | I would do 335667 fourth. | 21:10 |
| replaceafill | ok | 21:11 |
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| jstraw | replaceafill: https://svn.schooltool.org/cando/branches/replaceafill-pre-st10 | 21:37 |
| replaceafill | jstraw, thanks | 21:38 |
| replaceafill | jstraw, can i commit to the branch? | 21:38 |
| jstraw | yes | 21:41 |
| jstraw | oh | 21:41 |
| jstraw | no... I gotta fix that | 21:41 |
| jstraw | sorry | 21:41 |
| replaceafill | :) | 21:41 |
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| jstraw1 | replaceafill: can you run htpasswd -n replaceafill | 21:51 |
| jstraw1 | and paste me the output | 21:51 |
| replaceafill | ok | 21:52 |
| jstraw1 | it should encrypt | 21:52 |
| jstraw1 | ;) | 21:52 |
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| replaceafill | ignas, ping | 22:40 |
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