IRC log of #schooltool for Saturday, 2009-02-28

jelknerit is a bug if a student in my class can't log on to the system00:00
dwelshsecurity model problem00:00
jstrawjelkner: that is a problem for a school administrator00:00
ignasnope, not really, roles are more complex than a hierarchy00:00
ignasyeah, if student can't log in - he must go see the admin00:00
jstrawand the easiest thing is to poke the admin who resets it00:00
jstrawthat;s how novell works00:00
ignasand admin who is an old unix geek will reset the password00:00
ignasand the old unix geek will have his own password 32 symbols00:01
th1aYou just have to bug the sys admin.00:01
ignasand will keep changing it every 2 days00:01
th1aThat's how everything else works.00:01
ignaswhich none of the teachers will do00:01
jstrawI know of no systems where anyone except a school level admin00:01
aelkneryou have to an admin user in oreder to change a password in unix00:01
jstrawis allowed to do anything like that00:01
aelknerso it should be the same way in schpooltool00:01
dwelshBlackboard -- the biggest content delivery system out there00:01
dwelshTeachers can reset student passwords, and it really helps00:02
jstrawwhat blackboard are you referring to00:02
dwelshOtherwise, you always are stuck chasing after system admins.00:02
jstrawthe APS one doesn't allow that00:02
ignasdwelsh, does blackboard store confidential demographics information?00:02
jstrawignas: it can00:02
aelkneri bet teachers can't add admin users to their classes in Blackboard00:02
dwelshjstraw:  we should check that00:02
dwelshI bet teachers can reset student passwords in our current Blackboard system00:02
jstrawok... I am the lead teacher of 31_staff00:03
dwelshaelkner solution:  admins and teacher cannot be addded as students of a section00:04
jelknerthe solution could be to prohibit admins from being students00:04
dwelshthey have to use other logons to do that00:04
dwelshthey just have two logons00:04
jstrawwow... I am wrong... they can change them (has to call Pat Teske now... I can change teachers passwords on bb)00:04
dwelshHow do you like your crow... steamed or broiled?00:05
jstrawdwelsh: it doesn't mean it is OK or proper00:05
ignas2 logons?00:05
jelknerit is a very uncommon use case00:05
dwelshSeriously... teachers will just stop helping students logon00:05
jelknerthe use case of a student forgetting their password is *very* common00:05
dwelshThey don't have time to keep running to the admin00:05
th1aI'm going to vote "NO" on this, because a security breach is a much bigger threat to this entire project than the inconvenience of making a sys admin reset the password.00:05
jstrawthis is rather easy00:06
jstrawthe teacher sends an email to the help desk00:06
ignasyeah, if you want that - make all the teachers sys admins00:06
ignasif that sounds scary - well  it should ;)00:06
jelknerignas: you don't get it00:06
jstrawthe help desk changes it and replies00:06
jelknerthe problem is for the teacher to be able to conduct class00:07
dwelshRoles implicitly contain the idea of hierarchy.00:07
jelknerevery day i have students forget their passwords00:07
ignasdwelsh, we don't have roles00:07
dwelshIt is a big problem if we are not implementing the notion of hierarchy.00:07
dwelsher... groups00:07
ignasdwelsh, no, not really our security system is a lot more complex than that00:08
ignasdwelsh, some things can't be expressed through roles00:08
th1ait is designed to be flexible.00:08
ignasdwelsh, groups that is00:08
ignasand the way you want to say "no teachers can be students" is very limmiting00:08
jelknerth1a: and by being flexible, it is prohibiting us from doing what we need to do00:08
ignasjelkner, nope, you can easily do that00:08
ignasjelkner, but we don't want you to00:08
th1aWell, it is a question of what you want to prohibit.00:08
th1aWe allow you to do lots of things with the structure of the school.00:09
aelknerall we need to do is this:00:09
aelknerteachers can only add non-admins to their classes00:09
aelknerif a student like matt is also an admin user00:09
aelknerthen you create a second login for matt that is NOT and admin00:09
aelknerand only that user can be added to a section00:09
ignasjelkner, you can do it in cando in like 5-10 lines of code, maybe less00:09
jelknerthan that is what we want to do00:09
aelknerit should be solved schooltool wide00:10
jstrawI *seriously* disagree with allowing this00:10
th1aIt will never be in schooltool.00:10
jstrawit should not be in cando00:10
jstrawit is NOT something that should be in any professional app00:10
ignasi mean00:10
ignaswhy not make all teachers admins?00:10
aelknerBlackboard is the biggest in the business00:10
ignasif you want that?00:10
jelknerok, enough of this00:11
jstrawaelkner: and Pat's looking into it now because it isn't right00:11
jelknerthis is a policy issue not a technical one00:11
jelknerwe will ask our higher ups00:11
jelknerand implement whatever they tell us00:11
jstrawjelkner: if you want teachers to have admin rights00:11
jstrawgive them admin rights00:11
jstrawdon't subvert the system for it00:11
dwelshLet's table this00:12
jstrawwe need to get some real admin users involved in user stories before doing something like that00:12
jelknerjstraw: you don't get it eiether00:12
* th1a going to eat dinner.00:12
jelknerwe don't want them to be able to add courses00:12
dwelshBut while we're all here... can we talk about terms and their overlap???00:12
jstrawjelkner: I do, I don't feel your right at all00:12
aelknerwhy should admin users be able to be added as students?00:12
jelknerwe want them to teach their own classes00:12
dwelshAnother big issue from the pilot...00:12
jstrawaelkner: because they're taking professional development classes00:12
dwelshTerms cannot overlap00:12
ignasjelkner, but you trust them not to change passwords whenever they want, so why not trust them not to add courses?00:12
dwelshSo should a term always be defined as a year in length00:12
jstrawdwelsh: no... that is on ignas's todo list already00:13
dwelshand then the courses just described in the section names?00:13
dwelshignas & th1a:  what's the timing on the resolution of that one?00:13
ignas100% middle April, probably earlier00:14
ignasand it will be sections spanning more than one term00:14
ignasrather than overlaping terms00:14
dwelshI don't get the logic of terms00:14
dwelshIs there a quick explanation?00:14
jstrawdwelsh: "grading period"00:14
ignassimple enough00:14
dwelshSo how does that relate to course duration00:14
jstrawdwelsh: you make it span 2 terms00:14
ignastimetabling mostly00:15
jstrawand you have a course that is 2 grading periods long00:15
dwelshA grading period in arlington is a quarter00:15
ignasin a lot of places sections get shuffled every term00:15
jstrawdwelsh: yes... but lets call it a grading period00:15
ignasso in a school year sections and timetables get reset 3 times, once each term00:15
jstrawbecause it may not be a quarter everywhere00:15
ignaswhich is why it's called term00:15
ignasnot semester00:15
ignastrimester or quarter00:15
ignasbut in effect in lithuania they'll be either semesters00:16
ignasor trimesters00:16
dwelsha term is the duration of the course?00:16
dwelshor a grading period?00:16
jstrawdwelsh: a grading period00:16
jstrawand a section can span terms00:16
ignasconfusing course and section00:16
dwelshthat's seriously confusing00:16
ignasCourse in schooltool is "Math 101"00:16
jstrawdwelsh: to you... makes sense to me00:16
ignasSection is "Jeff teaching Math 101 first term"00:17
aelknerth1a: if a term is a grading period, then why would report sheets need more than one activity00:17
aelkneri thought the activity was meant for the grading period00:17
ignasaelkner, that was a simplified explanation for swelsh00:17
ignasaelkner, terms can have multiple grading periods in it00:17
ignasterms should be as long as the shortest "section" is00:18
jstraw(for example interim reports in arlington)00:18
ignasmost of the time00:18
aelknerso jstraw is not correct00:18
dwelshso term is duration of the course00:18
ignasaelkner, he oversimplifies it00:18
aelknerthere is no 'most of the time'00:18
jstrawaelkner: I am, it is just that I simplify it to make it easier00:18
ignasdwelsh, if all courses are the same length - yes00:18
jstrawdwelsh: s/course/section/00:18
jstrawif a section is 1 quarter in arlington it would be 1 term00:18
jstrawif a section is 1 semester it would span 2 terms00:19
jstrawif it is a year long section it spans 4 terms00:19
aelknerthat would make a term a grading period00:19
aelknerwhich is it?00:19
jstrawbut there is also an interim report that can be sent out at half period in arlington... but it isn't an actual final grade00:19
dwelshso the logic of term is that it is needed for the gradebook?00:20
aelknersections do not span terms00:20
jstrawdwelsh: and time tables00:20
dwelshthat's the period of time of the gradebook window?00:20
aelknerthey BELONG to them00:20
jstrawaelkner: they WILL by april00:20
ignasaelkner, yep, 2 sections connected00:20
jstraw(17:14:07) ignas: 100% middle April, probably earlier00:20
ignasaelkner, dwelsh will probably think it's the same section, you will know it's 2 different sections ;)00:20
jstrawand dwelsh should think it is 1 section... users shouldn't have any idea that they're different imo00:21
ignasjstraw, they can notice it if they suddenly delete a student from one of the sections00:21
ignasjstraw, but that's the point of having them separate00:21
aelknerusers navigate to terms, then secitons within a term00:21
ignasjstraw, so you would not lose old grading data, if you lose a student in the last term00:21
jstrawalthough... most systems never delete... they just deactivate :)00:22
ignasaelkner, users, or teachers for that matter, click on their "home" then click on a section they are teaching00:22
ignasjstraw, deleting user vs removing him from a section\00:22
jelknerAn academic term is a division of an academic year, the time during which a school, college or university holds classes. These divisions may be called 'terms', 'semesters', 'quarters', or 'trimesters', depending on the institution and the country.00:23
jstrawjelkner: and?00:23
ignasjelkner, that was accurate ;)00:23
jstrawsounds like what I said 5 minutes ago too00:23
ignasjstraw, but you did not sound like wikipedia, did you?00:24
* jstraw notes that he was sick today... and is not a happy camper00:24
dwelshThe two concepts are "course duration" and "grading period"00:24
jstrawignas: I didn't want/need to00:24
dwelshTerm as I understand it means "course duration"00:24
ignasjstraw, :)00:24
dwelshThe is the most common dictionary definition00:24
aelknerso a term in that sense COULD have more than one grading period00:24
dwelshso it's a little confusing, using "terms" for "grading periods"00:24
aelknerhense the need for report sheet actitities00:24
ignasaelkner, grading periods match terms most of the time, but not always and not in all countries00:25
jstrawdwelsh: jelkner's wikipedia-fu disagrees with you00:25
dwelshbut that being said, we have a "course duration" with one or more "grading periods"00:25
jstrawjelkner, dwelsh, aelkner: please remember that SchoolTool must work globally so it can't be limited to US style only00:25
jelknerthe problem is with secondary vs. post-secondary (the wikipedia one) usage00:26
jstrawat some level... projects generate their own lingo and define them00:26
ignaswhich we did00:27
ignassomewhere on schooltool.org00:27
jstrawso lets use what we have00:27
jstrawand get everyone to use it00:27
jelkneranyway, so that we don't end up in another semantic dead end00:28
jelknerlet's talk about behavior00:29
jelknerwe will need the following policy requirements00:29
jelkner1. everyone graded each quarter00:29
jelkner2. seniors only given a semester grade00:29
jelkner3. everyone given a final grade in a semester class00:30
jelkner4. everyone in a year long class given a final grade00:30
jstrawwhen did 2 ever come to pass?00:30
jelknerwe need to do that now00:30
jstrawwhy and for what purpose?00:30
jelknerfor colleges00:30
jstrawjelkner: I think you still misunderstand how terms work00:31
ignasjstraw, i don't think it matters for these requirements00:31
jstrawignas: 2 makes no sense to me00:31
jstrawand 3 and 4 are the same00:32
jstraweveryone gets a final grade at the end of a section00:32
jstraw1 is a grade is reported at each term's end00:32
jstraw2 is ?????????00:32
dwelshSo the problem now if I define a Fall term, and then have a class that continues to the Spring00:33
dwelshis that I have no easy way to copy over the sections with its students and assignments to the Spring?00:33
jstrawdwelsh: you can't do anything about it until ignas writes the update that lets a section span a term00:33
dwelshok.  I think I understand.00:34
jstrawwhich as he said early on is by mid-april00:34
ignasif you could put the 1,2,3,4 into a nice functional test00:34
ignasso Alan and I could work on it with an actual usecase in mind00:34
ignasit would be nice00:34
jstrawbtw, if you had waited till tomorrow to talk about these00:34
jstrawI would have walked you through basicly how all that stuff works00:35
dwelshWell, I dragged you guys into this because of the VA State user stories that we are working on now.00:35
jstrawyes... those were supposed to be looked at tomorrow00:35
aelknerjstraw: ignas would not be here tomorrow00:36
jstrawdid you ask?00:36
ignasaelkner, i can be here tomorrow if you *need* me00:36
aelknerwe're here now, so i wouldn't ask :)00:36
jstrawdwelsh: [17:37:09] pteske: It should be fixed now. For any user they can only change their own password.  Teachers should not be able to change student passwords or vice-a-versa.00:38
jstrawso our BB *does* now block teacher changing students00:39
ignasjstraw, you made my day00:41
jelknerok that's it replaceafill01:06
jelknerthe last thing we talked about has been submitted as a blueprint:01:07
jelknerwhich we can talk more about in the beginning of the summer01:07
replaceafillah ok01:07
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ignasgood night01:16
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replaceafillbye everybody01:29
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jelknerreplaceafill: hey man20:06
replaceafilljelkner, mr elkner20:06
replaceafillhey jstraw20:06
replaceafilljstraw, question about the cando section of the schooltool book20:07
jstrawI wrote that in 3 hours20:07
replaceafillthe installation section20:07
replaceafilloh sorry the starting the application section20:07
replaceafilldoesnt show how to start the application20:07
jstrawoops! :)20:07
replaceafillmake run20:08
* jelkner goes to grab dwelsh20:08
jelknerso we can get this show on the road!20:08
jstrawactually I usually have people do bin/start-schooltool-instance instance20:08
jstrawbecause it is long-term safer to know what make run does20:09
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* dwelsh is not really here yet20:13
dwelshjelkner logged him in so we can be ready for him20:13
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jelknerso, we are all here20:31
jelknerbut we are having a heated discussion on terms20:32
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jstrawI agree that is easy to do21:06
dwelshagreed.  #335616 is good.21:09
dwelshI would do 335667 fourth.21:10
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replaceafilljstraw, thanks21:38
replaceafilljstraw, can i commit to the branch?21:38
jstrawno... I gotta fix that21:41
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jstraw1replaceafill: can you run htpasswd -n replaceafill21:51
jstraw1and paste me the output21:51
jstraw1it should encrypt21:52
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replaceafillignas, ping22:40
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