IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2009-02-27

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ignas_th1a: i am looking at the code written by our new friends from germany17:48
ignas_th1a: seems that it's not as shiny as I expected :(17:48
aelknerignas: ayt?18:25
aelknerignas_: ayt?18:25
ignas_aelkner: yes18:25
aelkneri'm having a problem with my edit form for ReportActivities18:26
aelknerit wants to adapt a field to the context, and I can't figure out why or what I should do aboit it18:26
aelknerthe same field works on the add form18:26
aelknercould you please take a look at my branch18:27
aelkneri'll give you the url in a sec18:27
aelknerif you put >>>manager.serve() at the end of report_card.txtx18:27
aelkneryou'll be in the right place to reproduce the error by clicking on the only activity in the list18:28
aelkneralso, are you around at all this weekend?18:28
ignas_maybe ;)18:29
aelknerit's not a request18:29
aelkneryou need time off, too :)18:29
aelkneri was just wondering18:29
aelknerproblem is, I'm about to head down to virginia for the weekend, so I won't be able to discuss this with you18:30
aelknerunless you think you'll still be there say four hours from now18:30
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aelkneri'll have a chance to discuss this with you when I arrive before we start cando meetings18:31
ignas_four hours since now18:32
ignas_yeah - i will be online18:32
ignas_with some breaks18:32
ignas_got to run to do some shopping in 30 minutes, but that won't take much time18:32
ignas_aelkner: well duh18:34
ignas_aelkner: in add form - you are not using the witgets applyData function18:35
ignas_and that function is the one that tries to do the adaptation18:35
ignas_aelkner: hmm18:36
ignas_aelkner: why are you using an extra interface for that field?18:36
ignas_you want to have it a dropdown18:36
ignas_well - the simplest way to do it is to handle the field manually18:37
ignas_just like you did it with groups and advisors in person form18:37
ignas_aelkner: so override the applyChanges function18:38
ignas_and pop the scoresystem field from data before calling super().applyChanges18:38
ignas_though - I have a feeling that there should be a better way to do this, i mean - if you want to limit the choices of a scoresystem for reportcards18:39
ignas_you probably should add the scoresystem field (dropdown one) to the IReportCardActivity interface18:39
ignas_in interfaces.py18:39
ignas_this would make the code work, as ReportCardActivity implements IReportCardActivity18:40
ignas_so yeah - remove the IExistingScoreSystem interface18:41
ignas_and move the scoresystem field to:18:41
aelknerignas: thanks, i'll those things out18:42
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th1aignas:  They sounded like they knew what they were doing.18:49
ignasth1a, they kind of know. Will try and post them a comprehensive review of their code if you don't mind me spending some time doing that.19:28
th1aIt is worth spending some time on.19:28
th1aUse your judgement about how much.19:28
mgedminthere was an interesting article about code reviews19:29
mgedminstudy data indicates that reviewers don't find any defects after 60-90 minutes of reviewing19:29
th1aThe reviewers brains give out?19:30
mgedminsomething like that19:30
ignasmgedmin, it's 2k lines of code, but most of it is not needed ;) and the difficult part is explaining them why19:30
mgedminone of the pdfs here:
ignasand recommending them an alternative course of action19:30
th1aI think you can go longer than that mgedmin.19:30
ignascan - yes, but does he want to ;)19:31
ignasand yes - doing a good code review drains you out...19:31
mgedminI know that the parts about reviewing up to 200-300 lines of code are true19:31
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th1aI was wondering how much Zope 3 experience those guys have.19:32
ignasnot much19:32
th1aWell, that's lead to some... suboptimal code then.19:33
th1aUntil you get used to it.19:33
ignasthey have a knack of making it work ;)19:34
ignasor should it be "for making it work"19:34
* th1a imagines ignas reviewing his Zope 2 applications.19:35
th1aThey worked!19:35
ignasth1a, yeah, looked at some Zope2 code being written, very difficult to review, as a lot of things that are plain wrong are the way they are supposed to be19:35
ignasalso - functional test startup time of 40+ seconds discourages writing tests at all19:36
th1aI can't really believe people are still using Zope 2.19:37
ignasthe layers of api spanning jurasic to XXI century do not help either19:37
ignasPlone is the killer application, even if it hurts19:37
ignasdrop in a component, do a magic search and replace on some XML and have mailing list integration with your application is kind of nice, as Zope3 does not have any modules of this magnitude...19:38
ignasZope3 components are small usefull  thingies most of the time ;)19:38
ignasnot "Wiki" "Mailing list" "File upload manager" kind of things...19:39
th1aI lost my Covops and got podded last night.  I'm feeling kind of sad.19:40
ignaswell - last 2 weeks cost me an abaddon and a curse19:41
th1aWhat did the abaddon set you back?19:41
ignasit was 3xrigged19:41
ignasand it was FC's fault anyway ;)19:42
ignaspopped 2600m from the gate :(19:42
th1aEek.  Yeah, I can absorb losing the CovOps.  That was my first experiment with a solo roam in hostile gerritory.19:42
th1aDoing what?19:42
ignasflying through a bubble19:43
ignasit was a major evacuation19:43
ignashad like whole fleet shooting me, and nearly made it ...19:43
ignasgot podded, because I could not jump through the gate after losing a ship19:44
ignas"session change" stuff19:44
th1aDid you get pulled out of warp that far from the gate?19:44
ignas15 km19:44
ignasfull plated + 5 level amarr bs + afterburner19:45
ignaswould have definitely made it if not 2x webs on me19:45
ignaswaiting for corp mates to haul me a sniping zealot now19:47
th1aTook a lot of people to bring you down!19:52
ignassome of it is from a battle in the same system that was there before19:55
th1aStill, that's a lot of DPS.19:55
ignasI was primaried twice, but got repped19:55
ignasyeah, 5% res bonus x 5 levels in bs really helps19:56
ignasone of the toughest ships really19:56
th1aHave you been on SiSi any more?19:56
ignasreported like 5 bugs19:56
ignasforgot to report the sixth one while doing the first five ;)19:56
th1aWhat do you think?19:57
ignasvery nice, needs polish ;)19:57
ignasputting all the modules offline when loading a fit from your fit library - *is* annoying19:58
ignas1 bug - cannot repro, 1 bug - new, 1 bug duplicate, 2 bugs not processed yet ;)19:58
th1aSpeaking of bugs, we need to figure out why Phillip's server won't start.20:01
ignasoh, the paster one?20:01
ignasok, asking for more info20:05
ignasthough - the problem seems to be with pastescript not schooltool...20:06
th1aI wonder if he could have accidentally deleted a file.20:24
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ignas_maybe, no idea really20:29
ignas_I don't even know which ubuntu release he is running20:30
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jstrawignas: he updated the bug a couple minutes ago20:53
ignasok, so this is jaunty20:56
ignasjstraw, do you have access to any jaunty systems by chance?20:56
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replaceafillignas, if i do "make ubuntu-environment" in ubuntu, does it automatically ask my root password?21:24
ignasdon't know ;)21:25
ignasi think not21:25
replaceafillbecause debian tells me youre not root21:25
ignasin that case - do sudo make ubuntu-environment21:25
replaceafillignas,  i was reading the cando installation procedure in the book21:25
replaceafilland says that i will need my sudo password21:25
replaceafillbut the command is "make ubuntu-environment"21:25
replaceafillmaybe it should be changed to "sudo make ubuntu-environment"21:26
replaceafilljust a thought21:26
ignasare you using cando or schooltool?21:26
ignasbecause it might be21:26
ignasthat cando has sudo in their makefile21:26
ignaswhile schooltool does not21:26
replaceafilli was testing cando's installation procedure21:26
th1aShould I change it?21:26
ignasfile complaints to jstraw ;)21:26
replaceafilllet me see21:26
replaceafillah ok21:26
jstrawwhat did I screw up?21:27
ignascando installation procedure is telling users to do make ubuntu-environment21:27
jstrawfile non-existent bugs to ignas ;)21:27
ignaswhile it should be sudo make ubuntu-environment21:27
jstrawI'm not perfect21:27
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th1ajelkner: I missed the email about how you're famous in Cambodia.21:37
jelknerme too.21:39
jelknerwhat's that about?21:39
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th1a"First Contact from CIST-Cambodia"21:40
th1ajelkner: Do you have that email?21:42
jelknerth1a: no21:43
jelkneri just had lunch with dwelsh21:43
jelknervirginia doe has a need for guidance software21:43
jelknerand apparently a big budget for it21:44
th1aI think that should be our NSF grant.21:44
th1aOr... Virginia can pay for it ;-)21:44
jelknerit is interesting21:44
th1aMy reading of the SGER and ATE grants on the NSF site is we should just write an ATE.21:45
jelknerapparently dwelsh had at least some discussion with them about having it be part of schooltool21:45
th1aWrite a preliminary ATE proposal instead of trying to get a planning grant.21:45
th1aI just talked to Welsh on the phone an hour ago.21:45
jelknerthe thing they liked about that is that it would make deployment simple21:45
jelknersince everyone would *already* have schooltool21:45
th1aFunny how that works.21:46
jelknervery cool!21:46
jelknerand now that we have the developers we need for big projects21:46
jelknerthe possibilities are real21:46
jelknerth1a: can i call you to talk about the grant process?21:47
jelkneri want to work on that this weekend21:47
th1aI will permit a call.21:47
jelknerand i'd be happy to have some direction21:47
* jelkner heads for his office to make the call...21:48
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jelknerok, log in as the teacher22:24
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jelknerView Sections --> "Ancient Observatories"22:25
jelkner--> Enrollment22:26
jelknerr u there?22:26
replaceafillour inet connection is slow :)22:26
replaceafill385 pages!22:27
jelknernotice how the form gives no indication of which course into which students are being enrolled?22:28
replaceafillit should say "Ancient Observatories" somewhere22:28
replaceafillStudents of Ancient Observatories at the top maybe?22:29
aelknerreplaceafill: this is the first user story:
jelknerquestion: there are two launchpad users22:31
jelknerdouglascerna and replaceafill22:31
jelknerwhich one is you?22:31
jelkneri guess replaceafill is certainly you22:32
replaceafilli wonder if i joined lauchpad in 2006 :\22:33
jelknerok, get ready22:34
jelkneryour bug list is about to grow fast!22:34
jelkneraelkner and dwelsh are chatting about each of these as they type them in22:36
jelknerlet me know if they are clear to you22:36
jelknersince i can stop them now and get them to explain22:36
replaceafill...marked as "CORE"...22:37
jstrawreplaceafill: welshism  <_<22:39
jstrawreplaceafill: you can import exactly 1 full course22:40
jelkner"CORE" has some history with it22:40
jstrawthose are the only competencies that can be required22:40
jelknerrequired and optional are different22:40
jelknerboth of those count as CORE22:40
jstrawjelkner: when did this change22:40
replaceafilli know one type is displayed green and the other black :)22:40
jelknerthis is a feature that justas added last summer22:40
jelknerno, both of those are still core22:41
jstrawI need to look back over the data model again22:41
jstrawjelkner: what would CORE imply22:41
jelknercore means "on the state list for that course"22:41
jstrawcore is a poor way to call it22:42
jelknerwe want a new mark, "supplemental"22:42
aelknerthere's a difference between core vrs non-core (suuplimental) and required vrs optional22:42
jelknerfor competencies teachers add themselves22:42
jstrawthis is all UI I assume22:42
jstrawwe shouldn't need any new data in the backend22:43
jstrawand... before anyone works on it... it needs to be mocked up22:43
jstrawthere is a LOT of data currently in the system22:43
jstraws/the system/those views/22:43
aelknerjstraw: yes, the discussion is UI22:44
replaceafilljelkner, aelkner, but i dont want to slow down the creation stories procedure with my questions22:45
replaceafilli know i have to understand the stories well22:45
aelknerno prob22:45
replaceafillbut maybe i can ask later22:45
aelknerfeel free to ask as we go22:45
jstrawaelkner, jelkner: I am hoping to feel well enough to join you tomorrow22:45
replaceafillaelkner, ok thanks22:46
jstrawI'm laid up at home with something22:46
jelknerreplaceafill: if you don't understand the bugs22:49
jelkneryou won't be able to squash them22:50
replaceafilljelkner, i know :)22:50
jelknerso we need to make sure that is clear22:50
jelknerso to continue with the history22:50
jelknerthe va doe (virginia department of education)22:50
jelknerhas a list of competencies for each course (some required some optional)22:51
jelknerthose are all "core"22:51
jelknerlocal systems and individual teachers may choose to *add* (not subtract) competencies of their own22:51
jelknerwe would like to call them "supplemental"22:51
jelknerbut that doesn't happen yet22:52
jelknerthough a teacher can remove any competency they themselves added22:52
jelkner(the supplemental one)22:52
replaceafilli see22:52
jelknerbut they can *not* remove the core competencies22:52
jelknerthe current ui hides this functionality22:53
jelknerwe need to reveal it22:54
jelknerso, is that enough?22:54
jelknercool, two down ;-)22:54
jelknerreplaceafill: any questions on that one?23:00
replaceafillif i get a bug assigned does launchpad automatically subscribe me to that bug?23:01
replaceafillbecause im subscribing to every bug :)23:01
replaceafillthe batch enrollemnt is from an external file?23:02
jelkneronce a bug is assigned to you23:03
jelkneryou are automatically subscribed to it23:03
replaceafilljelkner, batch enrollment means import an external file, right?23:06
aelknerreplaceafill: yes, and also straight from a tex box in the view23:07
replaceafillaelkner, ah ok23:07
aelknerboth are done for importing courses, for instance23:07
replaceafill335616 understood23:07
replaceafill(i have to seet it but i understand it) :D23:17
jelknerth1a: what is the status of ?23:20
ignasjelkner, you have your own csv import form23:26
ignasjelkner, that handles this for cando23:26
jstrawignas: they're thinking of something else23:27
jstrawimo we need to ditch both our CSV importer and this batch enrollment thing23:27
jstrawand make a cando version of the xml import23:27
ignasxml import?23:27
jstrawerr xls23:27
jstrawthat other x importer23:28
th1aCan we import our customizable demographics now?23:28
ignasth1a, yes23:29
ignasnot in trun yet23:29
ignasbut yes23:29
th1aSo that's the answer?23:29
aelknerdwelsh says:  we need a user-friendly way to import a whole list of students into a section23:30
aelknercsv import would not be that way, I don't think23:30
ignasyeah, I think cando can just use schooltool basicperson, they will just have to set up the demographics schema and that's all23:30
ignassection student import should probably be a separate task from the full system import/export23:31
aelknerrdw:  I agree; section student import should be different; not an admin/manager command23:31
jstrawignas: the xls covers student section import I thought23:33
th1aI guess it depends on what kind of friendly you're going for.23:33
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ignasjstraw, now that i think of it - yeah, it does23:33
th1aDo you mean, friendly to the list of student ID's I have?23:33
th1aOr friendly to me typing in names?23:33
ignasjstraw, but we probably don't want users having to fill in all the fields that they don't care about23:33
jstrawignas: we need to reduce the number of importers23:34
jstrawwe shouldn't have 5 importers in system for people/courses/sections23:34
ignasyes we should23:34
ignashaving users type in term, school year, section id, teachers, courses and then a list of students would be too much23:34
ignasthey only want to enter a list of student ids23:35
ignasand that's all they should do23:35
ignasactually - doing it in a web form is probably easiest way to do it23:35
ignasperfect task for some ajax magic23:35
replaceafillignas, ajax = jquery?23:37
replaceafilli mean, what library does schooltool use?23:37
ignasyeah jquery23:37
ignasthough - even that is not needed23:38
ignasi mean - what kinds of student lists to teachers have?23:38
ignaswhen they do quick entry...23:38
ignasfirst/last names? usernames? ids?23:38
ignasa list of them in their PC's? a list of them on paper?23:38
ignasif it's first/last names on paper - enhancing our membership forms would be the best way to approach the problem, if it's ids in some file - who gave that file to a teacher anyway? ;)23:39
th1aYou don't literally want teachers typing names.23:40
th1aThat's actually less friendly than searching.23:40
th1aAlso, we do need to add switches to allow teachers to add students and teachers to enroll sections.23:40
th1aThat has to be site configurable.23:40
ignasth1a, i always thought teachers can add members to their sections23:41
ignasand what do you mean by "enroll"23:41
ignascreate ? join ?23:42
th1aWell, if they can there should be the option to not allow it.23:44
jelknerreplaceafill: here is another one for you to chew on ;-)23:44
th1aAdd to the section.23:44
replaceafilljelkner, :)23:45
th1aI don't remember the current behaviors right now.23:45
jelkneris this last bug a cando or schooltool bug?23:47
jelknerignas: can teachers see their students login id and change their passwords?23:48
jelknerin schooltool ?23:48
jelknerbecause in cando, they can not23:48
ignasjelkner, nope, they can't23:48
jelknerso it is a schooltool bug23:48
ignasjelkner, it's not a bug23:49
ignasjelkner, it's a feature23:49
aelknerignas: it's not the case at sla23:49
ignaswe can allow seeing the data, strange it's not that way already23:49
jelknernot if you work with high school students it ain't!23:49
ignasbut allowing teachers to reset passwords23:49
aelknerthey rely on the ability for teachers to visit student pages23:49
aelknerthat way they can call the parents, for instance23:50
ignasyeah, visiting is ok23:50
aelknerbut in cando they can't visit23:50
ignasas I said - strange you can't do that in cando/schooltool23:50
aelknerso there must be security in cando23:50
ignasnot sure if it's schooltool problem23:50
aelknervisiting is a cando problem23:50
ignasbut password reset is a separate issue23:50
th1aI'm very dubious about password reset.23:50
dwelshhmmm.  the one good thing about password reset is that teachers can unstick students23:51
th1aI mean, I understand why you want it.23:51
dwelshwithout figuring out their password23:51
dwelshso that's pretty important for when you are trying to help a student logon23:51
jelknerof course the proper answer solution to this policy question is that it can be set at the school level23:52
ignasthat opens a can of worms23:52
ignasif teacher can add anyone to his section23:52
jelknerwell, in our case, we want it23:52
ignasand he can set password for anyone in his section23:52
dwelshteachers are responsible professionals23:53
dwelshonly students need to know their passwordsd23:53
dwelsha teacher would not reset it without the cooperation of the student23:53
th1ajelkner: We need to think about it a bit.23:53
dwelshotherwise, password reset is the least of the school's problems:)23:53
ignasteachers are, but giving out keys to all the data in schooltool to 20 people is not too good23:54
ignasdwelsh, students can sometimes get passwords from teacher accounts23:54
ignasdwelsh, believe me - I know23:54
dwelshright, which is why teachers should not be able to see a student's password23:54
ignasand when every teacher password is equal to admin password23:54
dwelshthey only can reset it.23:54
ignasvector of attack is this - log in as a teacher, add user dwelsh to the section of the teacher, set password for dwelsh to 123, log in as dwelsh23:55
ignasmwahahaha I am the principal of the school and can see everything23:55
dwelshanother job of teacher is to secure their terminals23:56
th1aNo... it is bad.23:57
jelknerhow does a teacher become a principal?23:57
dwelshI don't get the problem yet.23:57
aelkneryeah, me netiher23:57
ignasjelkner by adding someone to his section, because well - he can add anyone23:57
dwelshthen they are student, not a teacher23:57
ignaswhich gives the teacher access to the password of the section member23:57
th1aOur role system is not strict.23:58
aelknerno it doesn't23:58
th1aSo we can be hippies.23:58
dwelshagain, teachers will NOT see passwords.  they only have ability to reset23:58
ignaswhat does it mean "RESET" ?23:58
aelknerbeing able to change a password is not the same as seeing a password23:58
ignasif I can RESET your password to "123"23:58
jelknerreset means create a new one23:58
ignasi can log in as you23:58
jelknernot see the old one23:58
jelknerlike in unix now23:58
ignasso what if i don't know your password, i can still spend quite some time using your account23:58
aelkneryeah, a teacher can log in as the student23:58
jstrawthat isn't ok23:59
aelknerthat doens't make him a princial23:59
ignasthe teacher can make the principal his student23:59
dwelshthat's a system bug.23:59
dwelshthe highest role should prevail23:59
jstrawthat's a data model bug23:59
th1aIt is a feature!23:59
jstrawthat you're introducing23:59
ignasthere is no hierarchy of roles23:59

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