IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2008-11-04

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th1aHi ignas, aelkner.16:30
aelknerhear about the election results from Dixville Notch16:32
aelknerMcCain 616:32
aelknerNadar 016:32
aelknerObama 15!16:32
th1aThere is no statistical correlation between their vote and the country's.16:33
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aelkneri know :)16:33
th1aHi ignas.16:33
th1aSo... what are your priorities now, Ignas?16:34
ignasi have these things in mind at the moment16:34
ignasdate widgets (zc.formlib vs z3c.form) so schooltool would have 1 way to enter date, preferably with a date picker16:34
ignassection copying16:35
ignasrefactoring relationships to make them a lot more efficient16:35
ignasand add capability of storing additional data for relationships16:35
ignasbugs in our bug tracker16:35
ignas(looking for a todo list to see if i forgot anything)16:36
th1aOne thing that is important -- particularly to do sooner rather than later -- is to improve the tester's experience.16:36
th1a(i.e., the person downloading and trying out schooltool)16:37
ignasyeah - import + sample data16:37
ignasam looking at it too16:37
th1aSo getting sample data working again is important.16:37
th1aYes, and importing.16:37
ignastrying to find out how to do them more or less properly with hierarchial data structure16:37
ignaspossibly combining import and sample data generation in a way that would give users nice examples of import files16:38
ignaswhile allowing them to test out schooltool easily16:38
ignascould you order the tasks according to your priorities?16:39
th1aAlthough we could just make static sample files and include them in a separate .deb package, I suppose.16:39
ignasth1a: yeah, i mean - my plan is 1. import, 2. export 3. sample data generation, because I can fake sample data by providing premade files16:40
ignasfor import16:40
th1aSo then rip out the existing sample data system?16:40
ignasif we have a full school import - we can as well do 1 file for our users to both - test schooltool and as an instruction for people who want to import their information16:40
ignasth1a: yes16:40
ignasth1a: it is too linear for our current data layout16:40
th1a*sigh* another brilliant idea of mine bites the dust.16:41
ignasth1a: no it does not, it has served us well16:41
ignasup until i have turned everything upside down ;)16:41
* th1a smiles wanly through his tears.16:42
th1aIt makes sense to do it this way (importing) because it also tests that our imports work and provides examples.16:43
th1aSo doing that first makes sense Ignas.16:44
ignasi am doing it using spreadsheets if you don't mind16:44
ignasinstead of CSV files16:44
ignasgives me a lot more freedom for comments, borders, bolding some text16:45
th1aWhat do you mean exactly?16:45
ignasexcel (better python support)16:45
ignasand and gnumeric16:45
ignaswork with the files16:45
aelknerwhat about xml?16:46
ignasaelkner: well - I can envision a user opening xls file16:46
ignasthen swapping 2 rows16:46
ignasand changing a title for one of them16:46
ignasi can't envision user renaming tag <title> to tag <first_name>16:46
ignasin a huge xml file16:46
th1aDefinitely we should assume the user is using a spreadsheet.16:47
th1aSo you're saying, use oo and save as Excel?16:47
ignaswell - python has very good python only libraries16:47
ignasthat do excel16:47
ignaswhile doing open office with python16:47
ignasis *hell*16:48
ignasand i am not exaggerating16:48
ignasand all oo, gnumeric and ms office can produce excel 97 documents16:48
ignasand even google docs can do that iIrc16:48
th1aIt is a little perverse.16:49
ignasth1a: you must start a fake X server16:49
ignasif you want to have it on a server16:49
th1aThat's perverse, too.16:49
ignasand at least lyceum found it really convenient to provide me with their student list, class/form list as a spreadsheet16:49
th1aI know.16:49
ignasdon't know about SLA16:50
th1aI'm not anti-spreadsheet.16:50
th1aJust surprised that Excel is easier than OO.16:50
ignaswell - i was surprised too, when I found out that if i want to edit a document in both OO and gnumeric - i must use XLS16:50
ignasbecause it's the only format that they both share16:50
ignas(or at least shared 6 months ago)16:51
th1aI agree that it makes practical sense.16:51
th1aI'm just pre-emptively cringing over the indignant email that will appear on the list eventually.16:51
ignassorry about that, but xlwt and xlrd (python libraries) are fantastic16:52
ignasi mean - i just put unicode - and it works16:52
th1aI've used some of the MS office libraries, too.16:53
th1aOK.  xls it is.16:54
th1aIf rms complains I'll tell him we accept patches.16:55
aelknercan i ask about truetype fonts at this junture?16:56
th1aOK.  What's yvl's status?16:56
th1aaelkner: Just a sec.16:57
ignasth1a: hmm, he is very busy with his other 20 hours that he has to spend internally, the full aggregate reports have been merged already, he is thinking about the new task16:57
ignasand has some questions, but hasn't written an email with them yet16:57
th1aGo ahead aelkner.16:58
aelknerso i updated sla with justas' pdf changes16:58
aelknerthat lead me to notice that truetype fonts weren't installed on sla16:58
aelkneri found that out by following the message that i got in schooltool when running the pdf report16:59
aelknerthat lead me to note that reportlab wasn't configured in schooltool.conf16:59
aelknerbut before i commented that part in16:59
th1aYou need to install the truetype package.16:59
aelkneryes, so how do i do that?17:00
ignasapt-get install msttcorefonts17:00
aelknerthen i just remove the comment in the conf file, right?17:00
th1aaelkner: Did you see SLA has a new sys admin?17:00
aelknerno, how did you see that?17:00
ignasaelkner: yes i think so17:01
aelkneri didn't see any email to that effect17:01
th1aDid you see the other emails between Chris and I?17:02
aelkneri saw the thread, but i admit i didn't read it closely17:03
aelkneri found it17:04
th1aSo anyhow, did you try to get sendmail going?17:04
aelkneri haven't gotten the book yet, i will today after voting17:04
aelknerignas: i don't remember commenting the reportlab in17:05
aelkneris that because it happened automatically17:05
ignasaelkner: reportlab is disabled by default iirc17:05
aelknerat buildout time?17:05
ignasno buildout does not enable reportlab17:06
aelknerdid i do it then and i just forget dong it?17:06
ignasyeah, i'd guess so ;)17:07
th1aI think we should make truetype a mandatory package.17:07
th1aIs it in universe or multiverse or something?17:07
ignasdon't know really17:07
ignasbut yeah, if you would submit a bug report17:08
ignasstating that you want reportlab enabled by default17:08
ignason schooltool ubuntu installations17:08
ignasi'd do that as soon as i'll do another bugfix release, or even earlier17:08
th1aIt is optional for a calendar but mandatory for a SIS.17:08
ignasyeah, i guess so17:09
th1aOK... let's think about reporting for a bit.17:10
th1aI'm leaning away from "have a reporting tab where you go to make all reports" toward "reports are views on persons/groups/etc."17:10
th1aI mean, they are probably views anyhow, but interm terms of UI/organization.17:11
th1aGo to group > click "Reports" action > select from available group reports.17:12
ignaswell - i haven't thought about reports as a whole yet17:12
ignasi mean - at the moment we are doing them on demand17:12
th1aI'm trying to start a backgound process.17:12
ignasso they make more sense as separate views17:12
th1aIn your brain.17:12
ignasthough - without more than 2 usecases it is difficult to come up with a sensible abstraction17:13
th1a(that is, I'm starting a background process in your brain)17:13
ignasat least up until now, most of the reports were very role centric it seems17:14
ignasAdvisors of students17:14
ignasinstructors of sections17:14
th1aOne issue is that it can't really be hidden as a management thing, as a teacher might want to run reports on their section, a student might want to run a report on himself, etc.17:14
ignasadministrators of schools17:14
ignasstudents on themselves17:15
ignas(or parents on their children)17:15
th1aBasically, I don't think we want to have to create a whole set of "Reports" views that have to filter out what a person has permission to see.17:16
th1aRather, use existing navigation/permission/views to control what you can see and add a "reports" button.17:16
th1aIf that makes any sense.17:16
ignasnot sure if a "reports" button is good, i mean - at the moment we don't have that many reports17:17
ignasto require a menu item17:17
ignasthat hides them under itself17:17
ignaswhen we will have like 3-4 different reports for a teacher + section combo17:17
ignasthen - reports makes sense17:17
ignasbut for 2 reports17:17
ignasnaming the reports and having "Narrative reports" action17:17
th1aWe will need it, but right, we can wait.17:17
ignasfor the section is the way to go17:18
ignas"narrative report"17:18
ignas+ "grade report"17:18
ignasnow that I think about it - having a printer icon, that expands into a list of possible reports17:19
ignasfor the section you are looking17:19
ignasor the group you are looking at17:19
th1aThat sounds nice.17:19
ignaswould make sense, because otherwise users don17:19
ignasdon't know whether to expect an html view17:19
ignasor a PDF17:19
ignasand that is a bit confusing (at least imho)17:19
aelknerunless the menu item says PDF17:20
th1aOne thing that Chris reminded me of yesterday is that sorting is crucial for the big runs.17:20
aelknerlike justas did17:20
ignasth1a: yeah, justas was thinking about adding sorting by advisor to the aggregate report first17:20
th1aYes, you need two level sorts (at least).17:20
ignasand then probably giving an option to print only reports for one advisor17:20
ignasoh, you mean like "Narratives by advisor" "Narratives by student" ?17:21
ignassorted by17:21
th1aWell, I'm thinking if you want for all students, you go to the student group.17:21
aelkneryeah, that's the issue, report requesting in general17:21
th1aIf you want for one section you go to the section, etc.17:21
ignashmm, for some "exports" and "reports"17:21
ignasi was thinking about an abstraction that would involve all the table views17:22
ignasas in - if a view has a table17:22
ignasthat you can sort17:22
ignasand filter17:22
ignashaving a set of views on top of that view17:22
ignasthat do stuff with the table in the view17:22
ignaslike - if you have a table of all the students17:22
ignasin a group view17:22
ignasgiving an option of exporting/reporting on the students in the table17:22
ignasaccording to the settings of the table that you have just defined...17:23
ignasmaybe adding an icon on the corner of the table that is being rendered17:24
ignaswe'll have to see17:24
ignasbecause dwelsh wanted to export all the emails of students for example...17:24
ignasand I think a usecase of - export all the student data for a section or do a report on them17:24
ignasmight be useful as well17:24
th1aOK, that gives us something to think about.17:25
th1aIt is on the right track, definitely.17:26
th1aOK.  That's all I've got.17:26
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th1aAny last words?17:26
ignashmm, you have gone to DST yes? ;)17:27
th1aStandard time.17:27
th1aYou too?17:27
ignas(i had one meeting 15:30, but now I see that we started 16:30 which means - you have turned your clocks)17:27
ignaswe should update the topic on the channel ;)17:28
th1aWhen do you switch yours?17:28
ignasa week ago17:28
ignasduring weekend17:28
th1aOK.  I don't think I have permission to switch the channel topic.17:29
th1aHave a great week, gentlemen!17:29
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:29
ignasth1a: ayt?17:59
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th1ai am here.18:15
ignasi was just wondering about the minimal set of imports18:17
ignasi am thinking that Persons, school years, courses, sections and groups18:17
th1aignas:  truetype is in multiverse, by the way.  I think that's why we've kept it optional.18:17
ignasshould be enough foe the first batch18:17
ignasth1a: well - we can extend our installation instructions18:18
ignasfrom just - add PPA18:18
ignasto - add PPA + enable multiverse18:18
th1aIt is a problem if we were going to be in Ubuntu core.  But that might be a while.  I'm seeing the advantage of being able to quickly push changes to our PPA.18:19
th1aignas: Actually, it might make sense to retain our existing sample data system for the data it doesn't make sense to import.18:20
th1aBecause it is still nice to have the fake assignments, events, etc.18:21
ignasyeah, on the other hand - i would rather generate it for existing sections18:21
ignasinstead of insisting on a predefined list of sections18:21
ignasthat you must generate using our sample data machinery18:21
th1aSo:  step 1 - import scripts; step 2 - sample data generation that iterates over existing persons, sections, etc.18:22
ignasyeah, for things like events probably18:23
ignasnot sure if there are that many other things we don't want to do user import for18:23
ignasmaybe grades18:23
ignasbut i can see exporting grades18:24
ignasand if we can do exporting, maybe allowing users to import would be nice too18:24
th1aIt is a spreadsheet either way.18:24
ignasyeah, events would be easy to do as a spreadsheet too, if we did not have recurrence18:25
ignasbut recurrence needs something like ICAL18:25
ignasto get exported/imported properly18:25
th1aWe don't need that for sample data.18:25
th1aBut for real import/export of calendar can't we already use iCal?18:26
ignasso at the moment I am going for persons, years, terms, courses, sections, groups, timetable schemas, timetables approximatelly in that order18:26
ignasth1a: well, in theory - yes18:26
ignasth1a: in practice - have you tried writing a script that does ical export of all the calendars for all the users, sections and groups?18:26
ignascould you do it?18:27
* ignas wants teachers to be able to use our import/export ;)18:27
ignaswhich is why I don't want XML18:27
th1aThe difference is that other calendar applications use iCal.18:28
ignasyep, and iCal is fine18:28
ignasfor seeing your schooltool calendar18:28
ignasin your other calendar application18:28
ignasnot so good for exporting all the calendars in the system so you could back them up in a text format and import them all back if you need it18:29
ignasbut I can think of something in the future18:29
ignasfor now - random event generation18:29
ignasfor your calendar will be good enough18:29
ignasor for all the calendars in the system/ all calendars of sections/ all calendars of users and stuff18:29
ignasth1a: could you come up/ find some example courses ?18:30
ignaswith descriptions18:30
th1aActually, random calendar events aren't a particularly important kind of sample data anyhow.18:30
ignasth1a: yep, which is why they are somewhere after timetables18:30
ignasin my list18:30
th1aOK.  I'll get some sample course descriptions.18:31
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