IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2008-04-23

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ignasaelkner: ayt?00:21
ignasthe reason for the current state of the title is - it was LyceumPerson before, so it is kind of historical/backwards compatibility00:22
ignasthe problem with full_name is that it does not solve it completely00:22
ignasthere are a lot of person lists that use title i think00:22
ignasand they will show it in the wrong way00:22
ignasas in - not the way you or users would like it to be00:22
ignasanother problem is that i am in the last 10% of making a release00:23
aelknerbut consider this00:23
aelknerall of the tests and all of the code rely on the title attribute working the way it does00:23
ignasso i am kind of tired/busy :/ and i don't really want to change many things, especially ones that i have to think about00:23
aelkneri'm not suggesting changing any of that00:24
aelknerand therefore breaking anything00:24
aelknerall i suggest is adding full_name to the interface00:24
ignasif you will cope with the fact that full_name can disappear some time in the future00:24
aelknerand to the implemntation as a property00:24
ignasthen - i am ok with it as a temporary solution00:24
ignasto your problems00:24
aelknerwhy would it disappear?00:25
ignasi don't like it as a permanent solution00:25
ignashaving title and full_name that are both used around the system00:25
ignasand are kind of similar but not the same00:25
ignasis just not a good thing00:25
aelknerth1a wants there to be more than just the two00:25
aelknercheck out the chat while you were gone00:26
aelknerhe suggested the eventual need for a bunch of convenience methods00:26
ignaswhich is my point - i don't know what kind of final solution we will come to00:26
ignaswe might have a view on a person00:26
ignasthat is his title00:26
ignasand his fullname for example00:26
ignaswhich makes sense in a lot of cases00:26
ignasand that would break the full_name being a property00:27
aelknerthat's probably more complex than it needs to be00:27
aelknerwhy do we need views when we can have properties00:27
ignaswhen you want to display context sensitive strings, depending on who is looking at it00:27
ignasor depending on i18n00:27
ignasproperties don't have access to request for example00:27
ignasand have no idea about i18n settings00:27
aelkneri see00:27
ignasso - as a temporary band aid - i am ok with it, i am not ok with commiting to some API after 5 minutes of discussion00:28
aelkneri'll just do the ugly string thing for now00:28
ignasand saying that it will not change when we will have time to think about it00:28
aelkneryou win00:28
aelknerwhen you're ready to think about it, don't forget to include me in the discussion00:29
* ignas does not like the fact that the title on a BasicPerson is Lithuania specific00:29
aelknerthe title property could still exist00:29
aelknerand it could look up the view as you suggest00:29
aelknerthat way tests don't break00:29
aelknerand templates can stay the same00:30
aelknerdoes that make sense?00:30
ignasit is kind of broken, and fixing tests is like 10 minutes of work anyway00:31
ignasbut at the moment i don't know what the right solution is00:31
ignasbecause title and full_name are quite complicated when you think about i18n00:31
ignasand zc.catalog00:31
ignasand sorting00:31
ignasand searching00:31
aelknershall we wait until europython to really get into the discussion?00:32
ignasdon't know really, depends on whether this problem will bite me in some way, or if i will come up with some solution sooner00:33
ignasbecause titles are a bit nasty for other content objects too00:33
ignasespecially the fact that you can't have them context sensitive, and you can't override them00:33
ignasif it was person/@@title00:33
ignasyou could just register a view for the person for your skin00:34
ignasthat would display it in 1337 speak ;)00:34
ignasand <blink></blink> tags around it ;)00:34
aelknerignas: another question while i have you00:36
aelkneri'd like to name the root of my interventions container 'interventions'00:37
aelknerlike we have 'persons' and 'courses', etc.00:37
aelknerany objections00:37
aelknerin case i'm not clear00:37
aelkneri mean app['intervention']00:38
aelkneri mean app['interventions']00:38
aelkneri figure that we have one intervention package00:38
aelknerif there needed to be another00:38
aelknerfor a different way of doing things00:38
aelknerit could name its root more specifically00:38
aelknerbut if not, why bother getiing specific now00:39
aelknercleaner i think00:39
ignasnot really00:39
ignasi don't really like the idea of taking up these names that way00:39
ignasand i don't like using an implementation detail00:39
ignasas a part of the public interface00:40
ignasand the name of the toplevel container is an implementation detail imho00:40
aelknerbut we do that with the other containers00:40
ignaswe did that00:40
ignasbecause we did not know any better00:40
aelkneri don00:40
aelkneri don't see what's wrong with it00:40
aelknerwhere is the problem?00:41
ignasthe fact that we have 3 different classes of persons in the same container00:41
aelkneri.e., give me a use case00:41
ignasthe fact that names like journal and gradebook had conflicts already00:41
aelknerwe do?00:41
ignasperson module will not react to the fact that you have switched the person factory00:41
ignasso yes-  if you will change zcml to use schooltool.demographics00:41
ignasit will try using the same person container00:42
ignasthat was used by another person type00:42
ignasand it is only a very small bit of code00:42
ignasfrom what i can recall00:42
aelkneri don't see a concrete use case here00:43
aelkneraren't we going to get rid of schooltool.demographics?00:43
ignaswe did not see a concrete use case when we creaded app['person'] either00:44
aelknerand only have basicperson objects in app['persons']?00:44
ignasmy point is - using container traversal in the top level of application exposes too many implementation details anyway00:45
ignasand should be avoided in general00:45
ignasif you use the container name 'interventions' you are preventing anyone from plugging into00:45
ignasit by adding a custom traverser00:45
aelknerwhat's wrong with exposing implementation deatils in an open-source project?00:45
ignasopen source or not - someone will have to fix it, and someone will have to write an evolution script, evolving from that is a lot more difficult than doing a small bit of abstraction from the beginning00:46
ignasabstraction especially in this place is a good thing00:46
aelkneri'm not so sure00:46
aelkneri see too much abstration in schooltool00:47
aelknerleading to too much developer time spent developing00:47
aelknersaves lots of money00:47
th1aHm... looks like I'm returning from the grocery store to an interesting discussion...00:47
aelknerXP dictates only code what's needed00:47
aelknernot spending time worrying about possibilities that may never come to frution00:48
ignasXP also dictates - write a code that is easy to refactor00:48
ignasapparently top level container names are difficult to refactor00:48
ignasvery difficult00:48
aelknereverything is difficult to refactor in schooltool00:49
ignasit's not about preparing for extensibility, it is about not creating barriers for extensibility00:49
aelknerhaving the code be less combersome will surely make it easier to refactor00:49
aelknerwhat barrier?00:49
aelknerfor instance00:49
aelknerwe have basicpersons in app['persons']00:49
aelknerif we want to extend it, we cold create another container that expends it00:50
aelkneri already did that with my demographics00:50
aelknerwhich live in app['intervention.demographics']00:50
ignasaelkner: look at evolution script that changes persons from schooltoo.person to schooltool.demographics00:50
ignasif you can understand it00:50
ignasand could write it yourself00:51
th1aaelkner:  I think you need to take the time in Lithuania into account when bringing up new topics with ignas ;-)00:51
aelknerwho wrote it?00:51
ignasi think it's number 1400:51
aelknerth1a: fair enough00:51
aelknerdid you write it?00:51
ignasit was written by faassen00:51
ignasand i had to fix it like 3 times00:51
ignasand i don't think i could write it right the first time either00:52
th1aSo where should the intervention objects go?00:53
aelknerit looks like it just has to deal with annotations00:53
* ignas should send aelkner a link to a panel discussion lead by Fowler about XP and agile00:53
th1aDid I leave some tests broken?00:55
ignasaelkner: if you don't want to write that glue code00:56
ignasaelkner: just skip it00:56
ignasjust that i don't like the idea of these "special" i came here first packages00:56
ignasthat reserve names just because they were first00:56
ignasand then you have person, lyceum.person, pov.person00:56
aelknerso what name would you suggest?00:56
ignasand person is actually scooltool.basicperson00:56
ignasbut it is called person because it is *special*00:57
aelknerso what name would you suggest?00:57
ignasi kind of like the idea of the module path, because well - no one can conflict with the name unless he is working on the same module00:57
ignasso sla.intervention00:57
ignasor schooltool.intervention00:57
ignasi don't know how that module is called00:58
th1asla.intervention is fine.00:58
aelknerthe module is schooltool.intervention00:58
aelkneri could name it that if that's what you prefer00:58
ignasif the module is called like that just call it that00:59
aelknerwhat about the narratives and demographics?01:00
ignasdo it the way you like it, i have explained the way I like it, but it's still you who is working with it01:00
aelknershould they be app['schooltool.intervention'][narratives']01:00
ignasafter the top level container you can do pretty much anything you like01:01
ignasbecause no one except for you or maintainers of schooltool.intervention will be working on it01:01
aelkneri was using app['schooltool.intervention.narratives'01:02
aelknerbut i hated that01:02
aelknerand that together with the demos meant three additional top-level containters01:02
ignasmy point is - app[schooltool.interventions] belongs to whoever is maintaining schooltool.interventions01:02
ignaswhile app itself is for everybody01:03
ignasit is a shared resource01:03
ignasshared namespace01:03
aelkneri will move my narratives and demos into app[schooltool.interventions]01:03
aelknerbut the final question is:01:03
aelknershould it be plural01:04
aelknerthe package name isn't01:04
aelkneri'm leaning toward not01:04
ignasi don't think it has to be plurual01:04
aelkneri wil not trouble your brain any more tonight01:05
* ignas is working on the release anyway01:05
aelknerit's late enough as tom suggested01:05
aelknerthanks for the input01:05
* ignas talks a lot when is very tired, so you should just filter it for useful bits of information and ignore the rest ;)01:06
aelknerit allowed me to make important decisions, so well-talked!01:09
ignasaelkner, th1a: by the way, does any of you have a hardy machine?01:14
aelkneri don't01:14
ignasbecause today i am done testing our gutsy release, so tomorrow i will upload all the 127 packages for hardy01:16
ignasand i don't really have a PC to test it on01:16
ignasthe co-worker who has hardy is sick :/01:16
ignasonly 1 package to fix and I will be happy enough with our gutsy release01:21
ignasaelkner: it's 50 minutes or so, and i am not even sure if it will convince you of the same things it convinced me, but it's worth watching ;)01:22
aelkneri book-marked it and will try to view it after my may 1 deadline01:23
aelknerigans: how do i get my mac address out of ifconfig?01:24
aelkneris it HWaddr?01:24
ignasth1a: by the way, you might want to look at that presentation too, if you will have an hour to spare some time01:27
ignas20 minutes and I can just leave gutsy packages for a nightly full test run01:44
ignasso i could start uploading all of them to hardy tomorrow morning01:45
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ignasFujitsu: ping10:19
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Fujitsuignas: Hi, just got back from uni. Yes, I probably should unassign myself from that bug at some point.;12:33
ignasFujitsu: do you have a hardy system?12:33
FujitsuAh. I do.12:33
FujitsuAnd you will too within 24 hours, I hope :P12:33
ignasin like 40 minutes or so i will have a schooltool release for hardy12:33
ignasand i can't test it12:33
FujitsuAha. Very good.12:33
FujitsuI can.12:33
* ignas is uploading 128 packages to ubuntu-hardy12:34
FujitsuJust say the word.12:34
FujitsuThat's going to be one fat PPA.12:34
ignasand one long build queue ;)12:34
FujitsuEggs shouldn't take long to build.12:35
FujitsuAs long as there aren't langpacks in the way.12:35
ignas128x short is still long ;)12:36
FujitsuNot over three buildds.12:36
FujitsuParticularly as they're dispatched every few seconds.12:36
ignasit takes 4 minutes to build a deb most of the time12:38
FujitsuSo a couple of hours.12:38
ignasyes :/12:39
ignasand a couple of rebuilds for eggs that will fail to build because of launchpad problems12:39
FujitsuI've got nothing to do now that Hardy is completely frozen, so I can poke around in SchoolTool for a while.12:39
FujitsuHm? Have you not uploaded anything to Hardy in that PPA before?12:39
ignasno, but that one is solved already12:40
ignasi am talking about this:12:40
ignasFailed to fetch http://ftpmaster.internal/ubuntu/dists/hardy/main/binary-i386/Packages.bz2  MD5Sum mismatch12:40
ignasFailed to fetch http://ftpmaster.internal/ubuntu/dists/hardy/universe/binary-i386/Packages.bz2  MD5Sum mismatch12:40
FujitsuNice race condition.12:40
* ignas is feeling lucky12:41
FujitsuThat was deemed not important enough to fix because of the low frequency, IIRC>12:41
FujitsuBut in more than a hundred builds, I guess it probably happens a couple of times :(12:41
FujitsuAh, I see cprov advised you of the fix for the 20-minute problem.12:42
Fujitsuignas: I note that the required version of zc.catalog isn't available. Only 1.2.0 is.12:49
Fujitsu(trying to build a clean trunk)12:50
ignashow are you doing that?12:50
ignasbecause you should use buildout12:50
ignasor you are bound to run into problems12:50
FujitsuI was using make.12:51
ignasthe makefile and scripts are in there for backwards compatibility with some tools12:51
ignasthe page is mostly accurate12:51
FujitsuIt used to work :(12:51
FujitsuThanks, didn't think of checking for new stuff there.12:52
ignasit works if "the stars are right"12:52
ignasso in a controled environment - it works12:52
ignasbut apparently we can't control environments used to try out schooltool ;)12:52
FujitsuThat will download the latest schooltool egg, won't it? What if I want to continue working out of a bzr branch of trunk?12:55
ignaslook at next steps12:56
ignasjust add develop = path-to-schooltool-trunk12:56
ignasto the buildout.cfg12:56
FujitsuOh, I see. Didn't bother looking further, sorry.12:56
ignasby the way - is the new central repository12:57
ignasi still have to fix launchpad branches12:58
FujitsuI shall bzr-rebase mine, then.12:58
FujitsuIt's not LP-hosted?12:58
ignasno it's not12:58
ignasLP does not give us shared repositories from what I understand12:59
FujitsuIt does.12:59
ignasand our release machinery needs a specific repository layout12:59
FujitsuIt'd be pretty useless otherwise.12:59
FujitsuYou need to have the branch owned by a team, that's all.12:59
ignasand as our releasing tools are on schooltool.org13:00
ignashaving it local helps with bandwith13:00
ignasand time13:00
FujitsuI guess. As long as you link it from LP as well.13:00
FujitsuBut having on LP also makes it trivial to adjust permissions.13:01
ignasyeah, that thing is missing13:01
ignasFujitsu: permissions are simple - no one merges to trunk except me13:01
FujitsuAh, that works.13:01
FujitsuYou are PQM!13:01
ignasyes, and apparently being a PQM with bzr is a lot easier than being a PQM with svn13:02
Fujitsu(also, I note you have an ibex milestone - it should be intrepid)13:02
FujitsuIt is. It also works.13:02
ignashmm, i guess i should tell th1a aobut the milestone13:02
ignashe is the one who set them up13:02
Fujitsubzr merges actually work.13:02
ignaswith bzr you don't have to sent in timetable-ui-fixes.patch13:03
FujitsuLP is also growing very nice branch review tracking features soon.13:03
ignasand you don't have to follow up with timetable-ui-fixes-with-missing-templates.patch13:04
FujitsuYou can either register your branch from LP, and get someone to merge from it, or use a bundle.13:04
ignasindeed, though that is a bit troublesome too :/13:04
ignasschooltool repo is 70 megabytes13:04
FujitsuLP is meant to be growing repos and server-side branching soon, to relieve that problem.13:05
FujitsuWith large trees at the moment it is very painful, but it will get much better soon.13:05
ignashope so13:05
FujitsuI am normally very critical of LP, but launchpad-bazaar is something they're doing right.13:06
ignasi still don't like the speed of bzr13:07
ignasbut it is slowly getting faster ;)13:07
FujitsuI only have issues with initial pushes/branches. The rest is not annoyingly slow.13:08
ignasand the suggestion to use local shared repos does not work so well13:08
FujitsuWhy not?13:08
ignaswhen you are working on 7-8 separate packages13:08
ignashaving 7-8 shared repositories clutters things up a bit13:09
FujitsuWhy? If you have more than one local branch of any one project, you probably have a directory to contain them anyway.13:09
ignasemm like ~/src/13:10
ignasfor like 20 projects 3/4 of which are svn, some bzr, some cvs13:10
ignasa couple of them in darcs13:10
FujitsuYou don't have something under that like schooltool/{trunk,someotherbranch}?13:10
ignasnow i had to add it13:10
ignasso schooltool/13:10
FujitsuSo you bzr init-repo in schooltool/13:10
FujitsuSo where's the clutter, if you just have a .bzr in ~/src/schooltool?13:11
ignassome of which are separate bzr projects13:12
ignasfrom separate branches13:12
ignasthey are not branches of the same project13:12
ignasthey are different projects13:12
ignasso i have schooltool_clean13:12
ignassometimes when i am merging a lot of patches13:12
FujitsuOh, they're just extra modules? Right.13:12
ignasschooltool.ldap is an ldap plugin for schooltool13:13
FujitsuI know, I used a variant of it for a while.13:13
FujitsuIt worked OK after a few changes.13:13
ignasFujitsu: strange ;) the code is crap13:13
ignasschooltool.lyceum.journal is eastern european gradebook13:13
FujitsuIt worked.13:13
ignasas schooltool.lyceum.journal schooltool.ldap, schooltool.stapp2008spring and lyceum are all separate packages having a shared repository for *each* of them would make organizing them even more cumbersome13:15
ignasi find juggling all of them difficult already, even though they are in 1 directory now13:16
FujitsuRepos just share revision data, AFAIK.13:16
ignasnow imagine putting each of them under one more level of directories13:16
FujitsuSo you can have different project branches in one repo, I believe.13:16
ignasdifferent branches in one repo?13:16
ignasyou can do that ?13:17
ignasif they do not share the same base13:17
FujitsuI'll tru.13:17
ignaslike can I have bzr-dev and schooltool.lyceum.journal in the same shared repository13:18
FujitsuI think so.13:18
FujitsuI just created a repo, with two brand new branches inside. I committed in each repo. A bzr info -v in the repo now says:13:19
FujitsuRepository: 2 revisions 2 KiB13:20
FujitsuRepos just store revisions, which have rather unique IDs, even between branches.13:20
* ignas is trying it out13:20
ignasby putting bzr and schooltool.cas under the same branch13:21
ignasit works13:22
* Fujitsu goes back to building out trunk.13:22
ignasand it makes local branching way faster13:22
FujitsuHmm, why does the ubuntu-environment target want the builddeps for PIL and lxml?13:23
FujitsuWhy not just install those packages?13:23
ignasFujitsu: safety, versions and eggs13:23
ignasi can explain in detail13:23
FujitsuI guess.13:23
ignasif you want13:23
FujitsuNah, I guess you have to be able to support multiple releases.13:24
Fujitsubzr branching doesn't have to be painful :)13:24
FujitsuThe only downside to bzr repos that I can see is that you can't just cp the branch.13:25
Fujitsuignas: Those poor buildds.13:47
ignas~90 left :/13:47
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FujitsuThe new menu system isn't bad, I have to say. Although the new actions menu could do with retheming.14:11
ignasso you did manage to start up a server :)14:51
FujitsuI did, after a bit of poking. It was much easier a couple of months ago, though rather more messy.14:51
ignasit has the benefit of working mostly anywhere though15:00
ignaseven on windows15:00
ignas is working now15:04
ignasomg, i like the launchpad spam machine15:06
ignas"like" that is15:07
FujitsuWhich spam?15:09
th1aignas: Should I try the hardy debs?15:44
ignas20 debs left to build15:45
ignas29 actually15:45
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* th1a goes to take a shower.16:49
ignas2, schooltool-2007 and schooltool-200816:50
ignaswhen both of these will be gone17:01
ignasit should be installable17:01
ignasor it will be installable in like 20 minutes :/17:02
* ignas goes to eat something17:02
* th1a is doing a dist-upgrade and reboot before trying schooltool-2008...17:32
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lisppaste5th1a pasted "hardy" at
th1aignas: see above.17:50
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th1a_ignas: ayt?18:30
ignasth1a: looking19:12
ignascould you try installing python-zc.catalog19:13
ignassudo apt-get install python-zope.index python-zope.cachedescriptors python-zope.minmax python-zope.session
ignaserence python-zope.wfmc python-zope.server python-zope.i18n python-zope.mimetype python-zope.testbrowser python-zope.error19:14
ignas python-zope.formlib python-zope.annotation pytho19:14 python-zope.configuration python-zope.exceptions python-zope.deprecation python-zope.dublincore python-zope.copypastemove python-zope.component python-zope.dottedname python-zope.filerepresentation python-zope.hookable python-zope.lifecycleevent python-zope.publisher python-zope.deferredimport python-zope.contentprovider python-zope.contenttype python-zope.datetime python-zope.proxy19:14
ignaspython-zope.securitypolicy python-zope.viewlet python-zope.structuredtext python-zope.schema python-zope.interface python-zope.i18nmessageid python-zope.event python-zope python-zope.testing python-zope.pagetemplate python-zope.thread python-zope.location python-zope.tales python-zope.size python-zope.tal python-zope.traversing python-zope.modulealias
ignasoops :/19:14
ignaslisppaste5: url19:14
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.19:14
lisppaste5ignas pasted "command to run" at
ignasFujitsu, th1a: ayt?19:15
ignasth1a: run the thing i have pasted19:16
th1apython-zope.index: Depends: python-zodb (>= 3.8.0~b1) but 3.6.0-8 is to be installed19:18
ignasmy magic scripts missed zodb19:19
ignasbecause it is a special case package19:19
th1aignas: Were you planning on including your little collapsing calendar legend in the release?19:20
ignasbut i will have to get at least an hour or two of sleep19:20
th1aYes, yes.19:20
ignasso i could write the test19:20
ignascommit it19:21
ignasand make the final releases of all schooltool packages19:21
th1aI just wondering when I should start making screenshots.19:21
th1aTomorrow is fine.19:21
ignasi see19:21
ignasi was planning on today evening Lithuanian time19:21
ignasi have uploaded zodb 15 minutes ago, waiting for it to get compiled and uploaded to ppa19:33
ignasas soon as it is done - schooltool-2008 should work19:33
th1aIt's ready for amd64...19:40
th1aOr... now building, actually.19:41
ignasth1a: you can svn up schooltool19:41
ignasif you want to do screenshots19:41
th1aOK.  Thanks.19:41
ignasit's not in PPA yet, i still want to test it more, and maybe refactor a bit19:42
ignasbut it works, and you can take screenshots19:42
ignasif you will find bugs - report them asap please19:42
th1aI just confirmed the reservation bug that I hadn't been able to reproduce before.19:46
th1aNot sure why.19:46
th1aI like the yellow.19:47
ignasth1a: can see the bug, know where it is, will fix it20:01
ignaswill go home now, and work from there20:01
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ignasth1a: does it work on hardy?20:40
th1aI'm still waiting on ZODB.20:59
ignasit's there20:59
ignasi think20:59
ignassudo apt-get update20:59
th1aIt is still on the pending list.21:00
ignasit's not there :/21:00
ignasth1a: the bug you have found probably is in sample data generation21:10
ignasi am not 100% sure21:10
ignasbut it seems like that :/21:10
th1aI'm not positive it is a bug yet.21:15
ignasi don't like the way it looks21:15
ignasso i will get down to the cause before final 2008.0421:16
ignasPPA is slow though, and i am not sure that it is the last problem out there21:16
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ignasth1a: you should bzr switch bzr+ssh://
ignasyour schooltool.lyceum.journal21:19
ignaswrong url, sorry21:19
ignasbzr switch lp:~schooltool-owners/schooltool/schooltool.lyceum.journal/21:19
ignasi have make schooltool-owners the owner of the launchpad branch mirrors21:20
ignashaving me as the central repository did not make sense21:20
th1aIt doesn't like switching from a nonexistent branch, it seems.21:21
th1aPerhaps I should start fresh.21:21
ignasyou can do that too21:21
ignasth1a: i can see what is broken, what i can't understand is - how it worked like all the time before21:28
ignasth1a: i am pretty sure i have tested that view manually quite a lot when debugging the "booking event is not created" bug21:28
ignasanyway - tomorrow event portlet totaly does not make any sense in booking calendar anyway21:28
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ignasth1a: fixed it21:44
ignason trunk21:44
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th1aNo zodb yet...22:21
ignasnope :(22:25
ignasi'll go get some sleep22:25
ignasth1a: write me an email or message me on irc if you will manage to install or not manage to install schooltool-2008 on hardy22:26
ignasso i'd see it when i'll wake up22:26
th1aI will.22:26
th1aSleep well!22:27
th1aignas: Success!22:47
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