IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2008-04-24

ignasth1a: Success as in zodb was build or Success as in - schooltool-2008 works on hardy?00:37
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ignasth1a: i have created new debian packages for all of the schooltool eggs that have been updated since the last release and have uploaded them for gutsy01:28
ignasth1a: i will test them and if they work i will upload them for hardy01:28
ignasso in the worst case we will have a complete 2008.04 release in 6 hours01:29
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rhineheart_mhello.. anybody here awake?02:36
rhineheart_mCan you point to me a live demo/a site running schooltool?02:37
ignasdon't think there is an up to date version02:40
ignasand schooltool has changed a lot in the last month02:40
rhineheart_muhuh.. what do you mean changed a lot? not anymore distributed for free?02:41
ignasi mean - the UI02:42
rhineheart_mwhat's UI?02:42
ignasuser interface02:42
ignasthe way everything looks02:42
rhineheart_mokay. do you have a live site running it?02:42
ignasnope, not at the moment02:43
rhineheart_mI just really want to see how it looks like and its functions02:43
rhineheart_mare you not using it?02:43
ignaswell - there is a live site, but it is used by a school02:43
ignasso all the data is confidential02:43
ignasand we don't have a demo site at the moment02:44
ignasbecause these are like last hours before our release02:44
rhineheart_mno problem. But can you give me the link?02:44
rhineheart_mI will just try to see even its login page02:44
rhineheart_mand how the school deploys it.02:45
ignaslet me start up a demo for you02:45
rhineheart_mwow! thanks a lot02:45
ignasold one02:45
ignasbut still something02:45
rhineheart_m how long do I wait?02:45
ignasdepends on how good my internet connection is02:46
rhineheart_mokay. hope not too long02:46
rhineheart_mhow's it?02:49
ignassoon i hope02:50
ignasis starting up02:52
rhineheart_mhow soon?02:52
rhineheart_mlink please02:52
ignasit's not there yet though02:52
rhineheart_mService Temporarily Unavailable02:52
ignasnow it's there02:53
ignasbut the UI is totally outdated02:54
ignasso it looks quite differently now02:54
rhineheart_mits okay..02:54
ignaslog in as teacher007 with a password teacher00702:54
ignasfor example02:54
rhineheart_mthank you02:55
rhineheart_mI will let you know my experience02:55
ignasi think it is a bit lithuanian though ;)02:55
ignasbut not too much ;)02:55
rhineheart_mwhere can I get the latest version?02:55
ignasif you are using ubuntu02:55
ignasyou can apt-get install it from schooltool ppa archive02:56
rhineheart_mis it the latest version there?02:56
ignasgutsy - yes02:56
ignashardy - will be there in an hour or more02:56
rhineheart_mreally? with the new UI?02:56
ignasas i have said02:56
ignaslast hours of our release02:56
ignastomorrow we are releasing the thing02:57
ignasso you could just wait a bit02:57
ignasand get all the up to date instructions02:57
ignaswith explanations and stuff02:57
th1aI've actually stopped payment on our old demo server.02:57
th1aI'll have to get a new one at some point.02:57
ignashmm, it's an "edge" feature02:58
th1aCan't you just take the "edge" out?02:58
ignasyes I can02:58
ignasth1a: just uploaded new packages for hardy02:58
ignasthey work on gutsy02:58
ignasso I hope they will work on hardy as well02:58
rhineheart_mokay. I will be installing it later when I get to work02:59
rhineheart_mI have gutsy server02:59
rhineheart_mwell, can it possibly work in debian?02:59
ignasif you know how to build debian packages from sources02:59
ignasyes it can02:59
ignasbut it's a lot of work03:00
rhineheart_msudo apt-get install schooltool  <<<<03:00
ignason gutsy - sudo apt-get install schooltool-200803:00
ignasthen open localhost:7080/ in your browser03:00
rhineheart_mis it secured?03:00
ignasno it's not under https by default03:00
ignasyou have to use apache proxy/mod_rewrite03:01
ignasfor ssl03:01
ignasi don't know how but it is possible ;)03:01
rhineheart_mE: Couldn't find package schooltool-2008 here..03:01
th1arhineheart_m: This is still an alpha release.03:02
ignaslook at
ignasapt sources.list entries03:02
ignasyou have to add them to your apt sources list03:02
ignasone way or another03:02
rhineheart_mwhat do you mena?03:03
rhineheart_mI can't get it with apt-get install03:03
ignasit is not in the official distribution03:03
ignasbut you can either edit /etc/apt/sources.list03:03
ignasby hand03:03
ignasor use System -> Administration -> Software Sources thingie03:04
rhineheart_mth1a, what's your point?03:04
ignasto add schooltool Packages Archive so it would be available on your system03:04
rhineheart_mokay. sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list03:04
th1aOh, I mean, you shouldn't be putting any data in it that requires SSL.03:04
rhineheart_mth1a, that's something that I can't understand..03:05
rhineheart_mcan you make it clear please?03:05
th1aAh... I mean, if you're just testing it, you shouldn't need SSL (yet).03:06
th1aWhen it is ready for real use, we'll have instructions for SSL.03:06
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ignasth1a: hardy release is out03:19
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ignasth1a: could you test it please03:25
ignasit might take a while to start up if you have sample data in the database03:26
ignasbut other than that everything should be working03:26
ignasand hopefully we can mark a few dozens of Fix commited bugs as Fix Released bugs ;)03:26
th1aignas: OK, back...04:07
ignasth1a: does it work?04:14
th1aI think it is starting...04:15
th1aIs it doing a generation update?04:16
ignasfirst time users will not have to wait that long04:17
ignasit's mostly for non-ubuntu users04:17
ignasso we could divide them into "pre release" and "release" ones04:18
ignasit goes through all the objects in ZODB, so it is quite slow if you have sample data generated04:18
th1aSo should this include all the recent fixes?04:20
ignasit is the trunk04:20
ignasso - yes04:21
ignasevery single one of them is in there04:21
th1aHm... taking up quite a bit of memory to make that change...04:22
ignaswell - your database is quite bif04:22
ignasit's 2 years of data04:22
th1aWill that go back down at some point?04:23
ignasso it's kind of a stress test04:23
ignasyes, i think so04:23
ignasas soon as ZODB cache clears up04:23
th1aI'll know when it happens because my computer will start working smoothly again ;-)04:23
ignasyou could have deleted the old Data.fs04:24
ignasbut i guess stress testing is good too04:24
th1aIt should be at port 7080?04:26
ignasif it's not04:27
ignassudo less /var/log/schooltool/paste.log04:28
ignasto see what's the status04:28
ignasit either has a traceback in the end or "Reading configuration from /etc/schooltool/schooltool-2008/main.conf" if it is starting04:28
ignasor Starting server in PID 16087. if it's up (i think)04:28
th1aNothing in the log to indicate a problem.04:29
ignaswhat does top say?04:29
ignasis python2.4 anywhere around the top?04:30
th1aIt was, then it wasn't, and it didn't come up.04:30
th1aI just restarted and it is churning away again.04:30
ignassudo less /var/log/schooltool/schooltool-2008-error.log04:31
th1aNothing of interest.04:31
th1aShould I delete my Data.fs?04:32
ignasyeah, sudo /etc/init.d/schooltool-2008 stop04:32
ignasrm /var/lib/schooltool/schooltool-2008-Data.fs04:33
ignasor sudo rm04:33
th1aThis is really freaking out my computer.04:37
ignasthe upgrade a huge ZODB in one go thing?04:37
ignasi'll have to try reducing the memory footprint of this operation04:38
ignasif that is possible04:38
ignasi am not sure how savepoints work in evolution scripts04:38
th1aIt is weird because it isn't going far into swap for some reason.04:38
ignasi would try removing some ram chips to debug the problem04:39
ignasbut my pc just locks up if anything reaches swap04:39
th1aWell, I quit firefox, that'll clear some space.04:39
ignasbut maybe i'll do that04:39
ignasnot today probably, i don't want to hose up my PC the day we release04:39
ignasjust in case we'll have to fix a bug or two04:40
th1aIt is like for some reason Linux doesn't want to swap out any of SchoolTool.04:40
ignasinteresting :/04:40
ignasi find the lack of error reporting quite strange04:40
ignaswhat was the last line in the paste.log?04:41
th1aI think it was still working before but somehow memory or io bound.04:41
ignasyeah, if python goes into swap04:41
ignasit starts hosing your hard drive, while not using CPU04:42
th1aYes, I guess it is probably swapping parts of SchoolTool in and out.04:42
th1aI'm curious to see if it resolves now.04:45
th1aI don't think it will burn out my hard drive...04:45
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th1a_Well, it seems to hit a point where it stops dead and just thrashes.04:53
ignasi guess your old database will have to wait for savepoints04:55
ignasi will come up with an evolution script that you can try out in your stapp buildout04:55
ignaswith sample data on04:55
ignastomorrow probably04:55
ignasor just commit it + release it04:56
ignasif i'll be confident that it works04:56
ignasthough - none of our users have databases04:56
ignasbut getting it out of the way now04:56
ignasis better than having problems in 6 months04:56
ignasfor now you sohould probably just stop the server somehow04:57
ignasand back up your old Data.fs04:57
ignasfor testing purposes04:57
th1aUh... I already trashed it, unfortunately.04:58
ignasnot a problem04:58
ignasit's easy to reproduce04:58
th1aAnother of today's accomplishments:
ignasvery cute05:01
ignasth1a: so - did it start up and can I go sleep some more? ;)05:15
th1aOh, yes.05:15
th1aGenerating fresh sample data.05:15
th1aGo to sleep!05:15
ignasso do we have a hardy release?05:15
th1aAs far as I can tell.05:15
th1aDo we have a Gutsy release?05:16
ignasyeah, it works on gutsy05:16
ignastested it on gutsy first05:16
ignasand only when i was sure that it works, uploaded schooltool-2008.04 for hardy05:16
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ignasactually the update release bit took less than 2 hours including PPA delays and package propagation05:17
ignasso if we will have to make a bugfix release it's less than 2 hours from the commit to the "apt-get update; apt-get upgrade"05:18
ignasgood night05:19
th1aThanks!  Great work, Ignas!05:20
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th1aI'll be working on various announcements, etc., all day, but if you didn't know it, you can now apt-get install schooltool-2008 if you add our PPA to your sources list.  See:
th1aThanks to ignas and jinty!16:46
* th1a first has to get some coffee and diapers, however.16:52
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*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | launchpad-ppa for SchoolTool-2008 is now available | IRC logs at | SchoolTool Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (15:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | CanDo Dev meetings Mon, 2000 EST (Tuesday 0000 UTC, 0200 EET) | Use for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you! | Build Status:"18:06
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ignasth1a: when is the deadline for the things that aelkner is working on?18:30
ignasth1a: i am very seriously thinking about switching schooltool trunk to bzr18:31
ignasbut i want to wait for a calm period ;)18:31
th1aI'd be in favor of ripping off the scab.18:31
th1aI think he's got another week.18:32
ignas"ripping of the scab" ?18:32
th1aUh... ripping it off rather than picking at it...18:33
th1aIt is going to hurt, but just do it.18:33
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aelkner_ignas: my deadline in may 1 for most of the features18:33
th1aProbably ripping off the bandage is a better metaphor.18:33
aelkner_but i will be continuing to enhance the system as they give me feedback18:33
aelkner_why do you ask?18:33
th1aTrying to pick a time to completely ditch svn for bzr.18:34
aelkner_why do we have to ditch svn18:34
aelkner_i like the interface18:34
aelkner_for looking at the repository on line18:35
th1aThere are tools for doing that with bzr.18:35
aelkner_are they as clean and easy to use?18:35
ignasaelkner_: because even the last sprint was a major pain for me when i had to integrate all the changes18:35
aelkner_whcih question were you answering18:36
ignasthe one that is asking - why we need that18:36
aelkner_where do i go to to get a list of revisions?18:37
ignasview branch changes18:37
ignasin the top18:37
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spowersis the launchpad ppa preferred to having schooltool in hardy?18:38
aelkner_got it18:38
th1aspowers: No, but we just got it ready today.18:38
spowerssorry, oh i see.18:39
aelkner_actually looks pretty good18:39
spowersit's pretty early here.18:39
th1aspowers: We should have our beta in intrepid without much stress, though.18:40
aelkner_th1a: could we delay the switch to bzr until after my May 7 meeting with the SLA staff where i train them?18:40
ignasaelkner_: yes, no problem doing that18:40
th1aaelkner_: Yes, that's what we were asking you.18:40
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aelkner_ignas: i noticed that we don't have zope.sendmail in the eggs directory19:08
aelkner_i'll be needing to send emails from my app19:08
ignasyour app?19:09
aelkner_my package19:09
ignasjust add the dependency to zope.sendmail in the of your package then19:09
ignasbuildout will take care of it19:09
aelkner_do you have an example of adding dependencies?19:11
aelkner_i don't have anything in sla/ that says dependencies19:11
aelkner_where are all the other eggs defined?19:12
* th1a is really happy that introspect is a button.19:12
th1aPeople might actually use it now.19:12
aelkner_ignas: i see schooltool's has an install_requires19:14
aelkner_should i be adding the same thing to sla's
ignasa dependency on schooltool19:14
ignasand a dependency on zope.server19:15
ignasthat is19:15
aelkner_ah, i already have the install_requires that has schooltool, schooltool.gradebook, etc19:16
ignasproblem solved ;)19:16
aelkner_is that why it already gets all the eggs?19:16
aelkner_got it19:16
ignasschooltool depends on a lot of zope eggs, and these eggs depend on even more eggs, and so oyu get around 120 packages needed to install schooltool on hardy19:17
aelkner_i like this system with its heirarchical handling of dependencies19:18
aelkner_Got zope.sendmail 3.4.0!19:18
ignasaelkner_: and you were asking why is sla an egg ;)19:19
aelkner_when did i ask that?! :)19:20
ignasshould i find the specific line in irc logs?19:20
aelkner_don't waste you time.  i'm taking your word on it19:21
th1aignas:  Here's a bug...19:22
th1aYour School Server Running SchoolTool  2006.999-2007-alpha119:22
th1aIs that manually updated?19:22
ignasI am afraid it is19:22
th1aI assumed there was some jinty magic ;-)19:23
ignaswill update in the next bugfix release19:25
ignasi have solved the evolution problem too19:26
ignassavepoints do work in evolution scripts19:26
th1aignas: Are you leaving imminently (bed, food, etc.)?19:43
ignasquite soon19:43
ignasbut i'll get online in like 30-40 minutes19:44
ignasafter leaving19:44
th1aI'm just finishing the release announcement.19:44
ignasi see20:08
ignasi'll run home now, so see you soon20:08
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aelkner_ignas: do you know how to add zcml directives to schooltool?21:14
ignasdid that a couple of times i think21:14
aelkner_i'm trying to use xmlns:mail=""21:14
ignassecurity policy does that21:14
aelkner_but it says21:14
aelkner_ ConfigurationError: ('Unknown directive', u'', u'smtpMailer')21:14
aelkner_ther must be something that i have to configure to get it to use mail directives21:15
ignasincluding meta.zcml21:15
ignasfrom zope.sendmail21:15
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aelkner_where would i include zope.sendmail.meta.zcml?21:17
aelkner_i found common/configure.zcml:8:  <include package="" file="meta.zcml" />21:19
ignasin your sla configure.zcml21:19
ignasthe application one21:19
ignasi'd guess21:19
aelkner_or schooltool.intervention21:19
ignasor schooltool.intervention21:20
aelkner_that worked.  thanks.21:21
ignasnew configuration declarations are included in meta.zcml's21:22
ignasyou can't use them before thry are defined21:22
ignasmeta.zcml is a zcml that defines zcml ;)21:22
aelkner_i remember learning that when i was first absorbing the schooltool codebase21:26
aelkner_but i then forgot  it :)21:26
aelkner_but it was quicker to learn this time around21:26
th1a_ignas: See any glaring technical errors in the release notes?21:29
th1a_I've caught a few typos since I sent it.21:32
ignaslooks good21:35
aelkner_ignas: no that i'm sending emails to port 25 on localhost, i would have to have something running there, wouldn't i?  :)21:37
th1a_ignas: Thanks.21:37
ignasaelkner_, oooh, you have a fun problem :D21:37
aelkner_do you know how i would set up an smtp server?21:37
ignasaelkner_, you will need a functional testing setup so you would not get emails when running tests too21:38
aelkner_i won't have a problem there, cause i can register an adapter that doesn't talk to the outside world21:38
ignasaelkner_, nope, have no idea about smtp, but i know that somehow my PC is sending email ;)21:38
ignasaelkner_, you still need to have a way to access these emails in functional tests, just to see if they were sent21:39
aelkner_maybe matt gallagher or jason would know?21:39
ignasbut yeah, a special adapter in ftestingzcml is the way to go21:39
aelkner_ignas: when you say you're PC is sending mail, how do you mean?  i use, so it's not my pc that sends the mail.21:43
ignasIvija 360 does email21:44
ignasmutt does email too21:44
ignascan't recall what i did to make them do so21:44
ignaswas like 2 years ago :/21:44
aelkner_well, this is going to be a nice lesson for me in setting up an smtp server.21:46
th1a_aelkner_: Noooooo!21:47
th1a_You've got sys admins for that.21:47
aelkner_i was just going to call SLA :)21:48
th1a_That's their problem.21:48
aelkner_but i need to do the same on my machine for testing21:48
th1a_Running a local mailserver isn't hard.21:48
th1a_Running one in the wild is.21:48
th1a_Unless you want to serve spam to the universe.21:48
aelkner_actually, i could use SLA mail server even from my chanine21:49
ignassetting up an smtp server on an ubuntu machine21:49
ignasshould be very well documented21:49
ignasin wikis21:49
aelkner_i'll research that as well as see what SLA does21:50
aelkner_actually, it's the Franklin Institute, but same thing21:50
th1a_Luckily you won't have to run sendmail, either way.21:51
aelkner_how do you mean?  the command line utility?21:53
aelkner_th1a: ?22:07
aelkner_th1a_: ?22:07
aelkner_you didn't answer my question22:08
th1a_Just that sendmail is a famous hairball.22:08
th1a_There are other alternatives now.22:08
aelkner_is sendmail a command line utility?22:09
th1a_That weren't as established when I was trying to run a mailserver for a school.22:09
th1a_Well, it is a server.22:09
th1a_It has a famous config file that requires a macro just to edit it.22:10
aelkner_have you heard of postfix?22:11
th1a_That's what sane people use today, I believe.22:11
aelkner_looks easy to set up22:11
aelkner_well, not easy, but not overly complicated22:12
th1a_Unlike sendmail...22:12
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aelkner_th1a_: question23:39
aelkner_i found this page for setting up smtp:
aelkner_under the section for reconfigure23:40
aelkner_when it says rename to your mail server name23:40
aelkner_what could that mean?23:40
aelkner_i don't have a mail server23:40
aelkner_i'm trying to install one23:40
th1a_Yes... if you were doing this on the internet, you'd have a domain and host name.23:41
aelkner_in my case, can i leave it as is?23:41
th1a_What is it?  localhost?23:41
aelkner_what is what?23:42
aelkner_they say to replace with what?23:42
th1a_Well, you could try localhost.23:42
th1a_Or just the hostname of the system.23:43
aelkner_ok, i'll try that23:43
aelkner_how do i get the hostname of my system?23:43
aelkner_typing hostname yields ubuntu23:43
th1a_OK, that's your hostname then.23:43
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