IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2008-03-11

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Lumierehi th1a01:57
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ccareyi'm here01:58
Lumiereyou and noone else <_<01:58
ccareyi was able to get a ride from a friend01:58
Lumierenot even jelkner01:58
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Lumiereoh good01:59
Lumiereone more01:59
jelknergood evening01:59
ccareyjelkner, i got a ride from a friend02:00
jelknerccarey: great, glad you could make it.02:00
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Lumierehi nitromaster02:03
Lumiereonly one to go02:03
LumiereI am going to get a bigger knife to stab filip with02:03
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Lumierehi fsufitch02:05
Lumiereok now that we have everyone02:05
fsufitchLumiere: hi02:05
Lumierewho wants to start with updates?02:05
fsufitch"svn update"?02:05
fsufitchi'll start02:06
Lumierelul? thanks for volunteering fsufitch02:06
fsufitchi haven't been doing much, due to a very nice combination of workload and other problems...02:06
fsufitch:-/ nothing interesting there02:06
fsufitchbut now i dropped by sunday volunteering position02:06
fsufitchso w00t more time02:06
Lumierethat it?02:07
jelknercom'on folks, let's move this along...02:08
ccareyok i can go next02:09
ccareythis week i sent a commit for the skilldrivers bug02:09
ccareyand it should be all set now02:09
LumiereI can't touch it till later this week, jelkner knows what my last week looked like02:09
Lumiereccarey: you should just grab another bug02:10
Lumiereand keep going02:10
ccareyany particular one i should go for?02:10
ccareyi looked into some of the other ones, but not in detail02:11
jelknerwhile we wait, can i talk about airline tickets?02:11
jelknerok, does everyone all the information they need about their flights this Thursday?02:12
Lumiereccarey: that's yours (assigned), go ahead jelkner02:13
jelknerand... are we all on the same flight? (American Airlines Flight 1733 leaving DC National at 5:20 pm)02:13
jelknerwjohnsto: do you want a ride with me to the airport?02:14
ccareyyes flight 173302:14
jelknerccarey: are you all set with a ride?02:14
ccareyyes my mom will drive me there02:14
fsufitchi have some issues with a ride02:15
jelknerfsufitch: what kind of issues?02:15
fsufitchccarey: could i ride w/ u?02:15
jelknerahh, now we're talking ;-)02:15
fsufitchmy mom doesn't have the time to run to the reagan airport02:15
ccareyi don't know, my mom works nightshift the night before, so we'll be leaving late02:16
fsufitchwait what?02:16
ccareyshe'll be sleeping until its time to leave02:16
nitromasterfsufitch, if you wanted, i'm leaving from tj at 3:50, you could come with me02:16
ccareyand i don't think she'll be up to driving to reston also02:16
fsufitchwat do u mean reston?02:16
fsufitchwe ride the same tj bus... >_>02:17
ccareymy bad not reston02:17
fsufitchnitromaster: that could work02:17
fsufitchmy mom did say the furthest she can take me is tj02:17
Lumiereis everyone up to date on logistics?02:19
Lumiereshall we move on?02:19
jelknernot yet02:19
Lumierethen why silence?02:20
fsufitchnobody wants me to foul up their car <_<02:20
ccareywhere are we staying?  is it the same hotel as pycon?02:20
* jelkner is on the phone with willi mom02:20
* th1a is not really here.02:21
jelknerwilli's mom02:21
Lumiereth1a: yea yea we know02:21
fsufitchalso, how much of a formal environment are we heading for?02:21
Lumierethat's what I am trying to figure out02:22
LumiereI don't know what jelkner and th1a's plans are for you02:22
fsufitchthat sounds a little sinister02:22
jelknerfsufitch: i'm going to call you next02:22
jelknerwhy don't we move on, and i'll come back to it02:22
Lumierejelkner: ok, what's the plan for the sprint at pycon02:23
jelknerLumiere: my role here is limited to logistics02:23
jelknerthat's your baby ;-)02:23
fsufitchsome rejected baby...02:24
Lumierejelkner: uhhhhh02:24
Lumiereth1a: jelkner: who do I get, and who is working on schooltool?02:24
jelknerbut i believe aelkner, th1a, and ignas have a well developed plan02:24
jelkneri thought you were in the loop on that02:24
LumiereI am02:25
jelknerso, why are you asking me?02:25
Lumieremy goal for the sprint02:25
Lumiereis that cando take advantage of whatever UI improvements are in schooltool02:25
Lumiereaelkner: here?02:25
Lumierehe may be gone02:25
LumiereI am not at pycon02:26
th1aI thought I got everyone.02:26
Lumiereth1a: hmm?02:26
th1aWe don't know who is doing what yet.02:26
Lumiereth1a: ok02:26
Lumierewhatever th1a needs done is what people do02:26
Lumiereth1a: all I ask is that we try and get cando using the UI during the week02:26
Lumiereor moving toward it02:26
Lumierethat solves that ;)02:27
ccareyjelkner: i'll need to check out a laptop, is that ok?02:27
Lumiereccarey: you need to work that out with dwelsh asap02:28
jelknerccarey: yes02:28
Lumierecc me and jelkner on the email request02:28
LumiereI'll grab the mallet02:28
Lumieretomorrow morning when I see him02:28
jelknerLumiere: the question is how to get it to me before hand.02:28
ccareyalright, would jelkner be able to bring it to the airport?  or will i have to stop by the ACC?02:29
Lumierejelkner: uh, leave that to me02:29
LumiereI have to make a ACC -> Herndon transit02:29
Lumieretomorrow mid day02:29
jelknerfsufitch: just talked to your dad, your mom will drop you off at Yorktown High at 2:15 and you'll ride with us02:29
Lumiereand we're at HB02:29
Lumiereso it's close as heck02:29
Lumierejelkner: we just need to get the paperwork to you too02:30
jelknerLumiere: yes, which day did you say?02:30
jelknertomorrow i don't go to hb02:30
jelknerwednesday i do02:30
Lumieretomorrow morning 10:2002:30
Lumiereyes, but we'll be in the neighborhood02:30
jelknerhas to be ytown then02:30
Lumiereeasy drop-by02:30
LumiereI just need to get welsh to put forms together tomorrow02:30
Lumiereso... send email nao02:31
jelknergot that ccarey?02:31
jelknerbtw. everyone should pack light02:31
jelknerit's an informal setting02:32
ccareyso Lumiere is picking it up and getting it to jelkner?02:32
jelknermost of the 1000 people there will be wearing python t-shirts and jeans02:32
Lumiereyes, but I can't do it02:32
jelknerccarey: yes, but we need a formal request form you02:32
Lumierewithout you requesting it formally02:32
jelkneran email to dwelsh cc'd to  us02:32
Lumierethen I get a form and a laptop to jelkner02:33
Lumiereand you sign form02:33
jelknerccarey: please send that email now02:33
jelkneranyone else need any equipment?02:33
Lumiereanything we need on the agenda for next week?02:33
jelknerhmm, do we want to schedule a meeting next week?02:34
jelknerccarey: i just called your home, no answer02:35
ccareyoh, i wanted to ask, are we staying in the same hotel as PyCon is in?02:35
LumiereI want meetings every other day, saturday and tuesday02:35
jelknernext week we will be sprinting02:35
Lumiereor saturday, monday, wednesday02:35
ccareyjelkner: my parents aren't home right now02:36
ccareybut let me get the phone02:36
Lumierejust 30 minutes in the evening02:36
jelkneri left a message02:36
Lumiereto bring people together02:36
jelknerLumiere: can i suggest that we be a bit flexible on scheduling02:36
Lumiereno need to suggest02:36
LumiereI know how it is02:36
jelkneryou can drop on #schooltool at any time and you will find us02:36
jelkneri agree we need to meet, but i also don't want to schedule without the rest of the crew02:37
jelkneri just want to add that pycon is a blast!02:37
jelkneri've been going for 10 years and i look forward to it each year as one of the highlights of the year02:37
jelknerit is interesting that this year there are about 1000 people already registered (950 i believe)02:38
jelknerthat is way up from last year02:38
jelknerany questions on how to pack, what to bring, etc?02:38
fsufitchwell are there any special items we should bring?02:39
fsufitchapart from the regular stuff02:39
* Lumiere pulls out the knives and puts em away02:39
jelknerfsufitch: pack light, bring your laptop of course02:39
jelknerand any leave extra space in your luggage for the t-shirts and book you may wish to buy02:40
jelknerany other questions?02:40
ccareyare our rooms already worked out?02:40
jelknerccarey: please ask your folks to call me when they get home02:40
ccareywill do02:40
jelknerccarey: yes02:40
ccareyok good02:40
jelkneri got the rooms02:40
jelkneri have 4 rooms02:41
jelknerok, i think that is it02:41
jelkneri'll continue calling, so nitromaster, your next...02:42
LumiereI'm off02:42
Lumiereyou've had my hour ;)02:42
jelknerLumiere: thanks, see you tomorrow02:42
LumiereThere IS no Cabal (online)02:43
jelknerccarey: any idea when your folks will be home?02:51
ccareyno exact time, but they should be home before 10:0002:52
jelkneri would like to talk to them tonight02:52
jelknertheir the last ones on my list02:52
ccareyi'll let them know02:52
ccareyjelkner, my parents just called, they should be here in 10-1502:55
jelknerccarey: do they have a cell i could call?02:57
jelkner10 to 15 minutes02:57
jelkneri read 10:1502:57
jelknernever mind...02:57
ccareyyeah 10-15 minutes02:58
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wjohnsto_Lumiere: ayt?15:16
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th1a...and we're back.16:49
th1aJust needed to *release* the DHCP before trying to connect another access point.16:50
* th1a is going to get a haircut.16:50
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aelkner_mattva01: why can't you start school.tool?18:13
aelkner_mattva01: first copy the file from my machine to a safe place on the server as gradebook.py18:22
aelkner_it's in your directory on my machine18:22
aelkner_let me know when that is done18:22
aelkner_navigate to the gradebook egg's gradebook/browser directory18:24
aelkner_copy the file (make sure it is in fact called to that directory18:24
aelkner_vi the file and go to the end'18:25
aelkner_in the view class' update method18:25
aelkner_you should see "if ev is not None and ..."18:26
aelkner_do you?18:26
aelkner_ok, you're good to go18:26
mattva01k cool18:26
aelkner_good luck with the locale thing18:26
aelkner_i'm going to lunch now...18:27
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ignasth1a, ayt?19:02
th1aI am back online.19:02
ignasit seems that it is possible to have schooltool running on windows19:03
ignasat least i have managed to set up and start an instance19:03
th1aThat is good.19:03
ignasare we interested in such a thing?19:03
ignasas in - should i invest a bit more time into it19:04
th1aNot now.19:04
th1aThere's just a significant gulf that has to be crossed between "it runs" and "you can run this as a proper Windows service."19:05
th1aAnd "it runs" causes confusion.19:05
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th1aHi ACSpike[Work].19:40
ACSpike[Work]Tom, how's things with schooltool progressing?19:40
th1aThings ARE progressing.19:40
ACSpike[Work]good :-)19:41
ACSpike[Work]I thought I'd check things out because I'm rolling through another "I really need to learn about zope" phase19:41
th1aWe're getting ready for a sprint.19:41
ACSpike[Work]at pycon?19:41
ACSpike[Work]was it this year or last year that schools were trying this out?19:42
th1aWell, both, more this year.19:42
ACSpike[Work]how many?19:42
th1aHm... two directly with us, several more semi-independently in Virginia.19:43
th1aEssentially, we're aiming for 1.0 beta in 0ctober, 1.0 in a year.19:43
ACSpike[Work]Where are the schools with you? lithuania and virginia too?19:43
th1aWe're working with a school in Philly, too.19:43
ACSpike[Work]how are the schools responding to it?19:44
th1aWell, we're still actively working with them to flesh out the functionality.19:45
th1aSo they like the parts that work ;-)19:45
th1aAnd they like it when we make it do things they ask for.19:45
ACSpike[Work]do schools make a financial commitment toward the development?19:45
th1aWell, the schools in Virginia do.19:45
th1aThat's CanDo.19:45
th1aIt is difficult to bootstrap something this mission-critical.19:46
ACSpike[Work]what percentage of an average school's workflow would you say you cover now?19:46
ACSpike[Work]I can understand that19:46
th1aWell, as a percentage it would probably come out depressingly low.19:47
ACSpike[Work]its also difficult because every school will have slightly different business rules19:47
ACSpike[Work]I guess you have to keep working with schools one by one till you can nail down the patterns19:47
th1aWe've got a simple gradebook that needs a couple months of love.19:47
th1aWe've got a Lithuanian attendance/gradebook (you can assign a score to each kid for each meeting) that is pretty complete.19:48
ACSpike[Work]yeah, every teacher grades differently it seems. people here are always complaining about the gradebook in moodle19:48
th1aThe calendar/resource scheduling just needs to have bugs knocked out.19:48
th1aThere are 1,000,000 types of reports that have to be created at some point.19:49
th1aAt SLA we're doing some more specialized modules: narrative report cards and disciplinary tracking.19:49
ACSpike[Work]I'd like to understand how this all fits together19:49
th1aSLA = Philly.19:49
th1aIn what sense?19:50
ACSpike[Work]in a number of senses :-)19:50
ACSpike[Work]most of my we development has been against relational databases, but I have some exposure to plone. and I'm just having a hard time imagining patterns for developing systems that aren't primarily content inside of zope(ie outside of the todoItems in a TodoContainer that so many of the tutorials implement).19:52
ACSpike[Work]I really just need to get my hands dirty19:53
th1aWell, I19:54
th1a've realized I don't really understand fully the implications for extensibility that come with using an object database.19:54
th1aIt complicates things more than I realized at first.19:54
ACSpike[Work]have you seen documents that detail zope patterns? or zope best practices?19:55
th1aZope 3?19:56
th1aWell, Phillip's book is good.19:57
ACSpike[Work]yeah, I don't think I ahve that one yet19:57
th1aHave you looked at Grok?19:58
ACSpike[Work]I read the website this last weekend19:59
ACSpike[Work]anyone run schooltool on windows?20:03
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th1aIgnas and I were discussing that earlier.20:05
th1aApparently the current codebase still works on Windows.20:05
th1aBut se con't really have the expertise to make it run as a proper Windows service,20:05
th1aso I'd rather just say it doesn't work until someone figures that out.20:05
ACSpike[Work]I wrote a little windows service the other day using the windows extensions20:06
ACSpike[Work]it was a little dns proxy. give it a list of dns names and it would query a dns server for the addresses and send the reply back to the client.20:07
th1aYes, it isn't hard to get the basic functionality working.20:07
th1aBut having done that, I didn't feel confident in telling a school it would work in production.20:07
ACSpike[Work]it was annoying that the backtraces that happen in the stdlib get printed to stderr directly :-(20:08
ACSpike[Work]what needs to be done to say it would work in production?20:08
th1aBasically have someone take responsibility for doing it an fixing it when it breaks :-)20:09
ACSpike[Work]responsibility is such a dirty word20:09
th1aThat's what makes writing a student information system less fun than writing an mp3 jukebox.20:10
ACSpike[Work]oh, I remember the other thing. the environment in the service is all wack when trying to make an exe with pyinstaller20:11
ACSpike[Work]I found this very helpful for the basic functionality
ACSpike[Work]so is the basic service functionality already working?20:13
th1aWell, I took some code from Zope 2 once and stuck it in SchoolTool somewhere, and it worked.20:13
th1aBut I didn't really know what I'd do if it stopped working.20:14
ACSpike[Work]so what we're really talking about is makeing zope3 or twisted or whatever process that runs is a service20:14
ACSpike[Work]do you even have a windows box to test on?20:14
th1aI did retain a Windows partition on my Thinkpad.20:14
th1aOverall, though, this isn't a priority.20:15
ACSpike[Work]not with out the functionality, I wouldn't assume20:15
th1aYes -- finishing the functionality is first priority ;-)20:15
ACSpike[Work]this is the offical branch? lp:~ignas/schooltool/schooltool.stapp2008spring/20:16
th1aI guess it is official.20:17
th1aWe're sort of mid-transition to bzr.20:17
ACSpike[Work]official is hard to pin down with dvcs?20:18
th1aBut yes, that's what you want.20:18
ACSpike[Work]you guys use reportlab?20:19
ACSpike[Work]oh, that's not schooltool that's just a buildout script?20:44
ACSpike[Work]python-imaging is pil?20:46
ACSpike[Work] which branch do I want to get schooltool?21:01
* ACSpike[Work] thinks it would be more time efficient to setup an ubuntu server:-)21:02
th1aWell, if you just want the trunk get it from our subversion.21:02
ACSpike[Work]not using bzr for that yet?21:02
th1aWe're still in-between.21:02
ACSpike[Work]do you use the bzr svn plugin?21:02
th1aI guess not.21:02
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ACSpike[Work]how many people are actively working on schooltool now?22:21
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lisppaste5ACSpike[Work] pasted "buildout error" at
ACSpike[Work]there is no bin dir in that bzr checkout22:36
ACSpike[Work]th1a: am I missing something from your directions?22:37
ACSpike[Work]running "make BOOTSTRAP_PYTHON=python2.4 bootstrap" by hand worked. wonder where I went wrong22:42
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ACSpike[Work]well it works!23:13
ACSpike[Work]I do think installing on an ubuntu server was much faster than attempting to figure out what was needed and setting up on windows23:13
ACSpike[Work]but the schooltool install itself takes quite a long time23:14
ACSpike[Work]much longer than downloading the ubuntu iso and installing the server23:14
th1aWell, eventually "apt-get install schooltool" will do the trick.23:15
ACSpike[Work]that would make it easier :-)23:15
th1aACSpike[Work]: Did I skip a step in my directions?23:16
ACSpike[Work]th1a: I'm not sure. it just didn't work for me. and this was a clean install so I find that odd.23:16
ACSpike[Work]no I did make that is what failed23:16
ACSpike[Work]make runs bootstrap23:17
ACSpike[Work]and that generates the bin/bootstrap stuff I think. and that wasn't there somehow23:17
ACSpike[Work]you may want to add that the buildout cache dirs need to be created23:17
ACSpike[Work]perhaps something is ever so slightly different on gusty?23:18
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ACSpike[Work]so what should I do next?23:20
th1aI was using Hardy while making the instructions, I think.23:21
th1aWhat point are you at now?23:22
ACSpike[Work]the instructions themselves site dapper.23:22
ACSpike[Work]and I think what failed is kinda odd anyway. I wouldn't report it as a bug unless I could confirm it a second time23:22
ACSpike[Work]I have a running schooltool23:23
th1aDapper?  I must have forgotten to change that part.23:23
ACSpike[Work]As a superuser (sudo) edit /etc/apt/sources.list to include this line deb dapper universe multiverse23:23
th1aOh, right.23:24
ACSpike[Work]I think we have similar looking cats23:27
ACSpike[Work]what's the correct url for "edit attendance preferences"? /persons/manager/@@site-preferences-codes.html23:30
th1aEdit attendance preferences?23:31
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ACSpike[Work]yes, I click on Actions while at "school>>persons>> administrator schooltool" and select "change site preferences" and at the bottom of the page there is a link labeled "edit attendance preferences" but it is dead23:32
th1aYou're digging into the dark corners.23:33
ACSpike[Work]I'm just clicking :-)23:33
th1aThat whole component is probably dead and will never return, unfortunately.23:33
ACSpike[Work]the @@ in the urls caught me off guard. looks like a missing replacement from a configure script23:33
th1aNo, that's kind of a standard Zope3-ism.23:34
ACSpike[Work]is that something with the nasty mail I just ran across on the list?23:34
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ACSpike[Work]well, I'd like to help23:35
ACSpike[Work]I've wanted to help for at least a year now. but I got lazy and it is hard to get motivated to learn these things when I don't have a personal itch.23:35
ACSpike[Work]but I'd still like to try23:35
th1aWell, you should talk to ignas.23:36
th1aWho is in Lithuania, so he logs off around 2 or 3 usually.23:36
ACSpike[Work]have to be here earlier then23:36
ACSpike[Work]what are you currently working on?23:36
th1aI pretty much just work on keeping the different parts of the operation working together.23:37
ACSpike[Work]"operation" meaning non-technical problems?23:37
th1aNow that things are getting more settled I'm going to have to start working more on documentation & marketing.23:37
th1aI'm not programming at this point.23:37
th1aI'm a distinctly amateur programmer.23:38
ACSpike[Work]last I checked the Lithuanian school stuff was drastically different than what we would need in the states23:38
ACSpike[Work]is ignas tending to both needs?23:38
th1aWe're doing a better job of covering both.23:39
th1aI guess we mostly would need to narrow it down in terms of the kind of stuff you'd be interested in doing.23:40
ACSpike[Work]I'm a little fuzzy on that myself23:41
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ACSpike[Work]I'd be most interested in something that has a flying chance of applying to schools in our system23:41
ACSpike[Work]but without communicating with those schools I'm not sure what that would be.23:41
ACSpike[Work]and I'm not sure how much success I'd have communicating with them unless they were actually trying to use the product23:42
ACSpike[Work]kind of a chicken and egg thing23:42
ACSpike[Work]but developing a module would probalby be a big first step anyway.23:43
ACSpike[Work]I think I'd like a pointer to a few bugs that would be manageable in a few hours to a few days each23:43
ACSpike[Work]that way I could get a look around the code some23:43
th1aOK... well, you might want to look at what aelkner is doing in Philly then,23:43
th1abecause he's writing some small components.23:44
ACSpike[Work]of course being a complete newb, I'm not sure how to identify suitable bugs.23:44
th1aignas is the person to point you to bugs.23:44
th1aaelkner is usually around during the day.23:44
ACSpike[Work]I'll try to catch up with him sometime23:44
ACSpike[Work]I'll also try to get a hold of a couple of my friends in our school system and pick their brains23:45
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