IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2008-02-19

aelknerfsufitch: ping00:02
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fsufitchaelkner: pong00:15
aelknerwhat up?00:15
fsufitchremember the person I emailed you and the others about?00:15
fsufitchthe one that wantecd to join cando?00:15
fsufitchwell, he quit00:15
fsufitchbut one of his friends wants to join instead00:15
aelknerwhy did he quit?00:16
fsufitchhe wants a paying job asap, i.e. he wouldn't have time for all the zope learning curve00:16
aelkneri see00:16
aelknergreedy one00:16
fsufitchwhich is y the second person joined, cuz they're more into just learning to be a better programmer00:16
aelknerso, you're going to poijt him to the docs, right?00:17
fsufitchfyi, it's a her00:17
fsufitch(gasp a girl working on cando :O)00:17
aelknerhappened before, don't you remember?00:17
fsufitchu mean during internship?00:17
fsufitchwell that was a larger crowd ;)00:17
fsufitchanyway, we'll see how it turns out00:17
fsufitchbut i pointed her to the zope3 zcontact tutorial that pcardune made for us00:18
aelknerthat's great, a start00:18
aelknera good one00:18
fsufitchand btw, i really enjoyed my learning curve with cando00:18
fsufitchgoing from zcontact -> some independent project -> fixing minor bugs in cando/timeclock00:18
aelknerhave you seen this link?
fsufitchi dont know if it would be optimal for this person, but meh00:19
fsufitchno i haven't00:19
aelknercheck it out00:19
aelknerit may be too advanced for your friend00:19
aelknerbut if you master it00:19
aelkneryou could then later pass it on to her00:19
aelknerafter she's gotten the zcontact thing down00:20
fsufitchi'm bookmarking this!00:20
aelkneramazing isn;'t it?00:20
aelknerit's kind of like a combo00:20
aelknerof a great tutorial00:20
fsufitchand a great reference book00:20
aelknerand a very useful reference00:20
fsufitchyup :D00:20
aelknerlike the back of Phillip's book, only better00:20
fsufitchheh i remember this summer when people kept referring to that book and I was confused because of its author's name ;)00:21
aelknerbascially, the one pooint i like the best00:21
aelkneris that the ZCA coimes down to two things00:21
aelkneradapters and utilitties00:21
aelkneradapters are factories00:21
aelknerand utilities are objects00:22
aelknerthat actually helped me clear up some of the confusion i had00:22
aelknerabout the ZCA00:22
aelknerso views and subscribers are just adapters00:22
aelknereverything is an adapter (except a utility)00:22
fsufitchnow you're confusing me <_<00:23
fsufitchi sort of go with the ZCA as i go00:23
fsufitchi never tried to understand it fully00:23
fsufitchi did try00:23
aelknerthats's just it00:23
fsufitchbut whenever i did i got a splitting headache00:23
aelknerbut the link i just gave you helps00:24
aelknerget rid of the headache part00:24
aelknerwhen pdb'ing zope internals00:24
aelknerwhich one needs to do to trouble-shoot many problems00:24
aelkneryou'll notice that things are always being adapted00:25
aelknerall around the code base00:25
aelknerso that's why it helps to know how everythiong's an aapter00:25
aelkneran to not be bothered by that fact00:25
aelknerbut rather happy to know it00:25
aelknerit's a concept that onbe only needs to learn once00:25
aelknerand then it gets applied EVERYWHERE00:26
aelknerans that helps00:26
aelknerit's just a matter of getting the concept00:26
aelknerso i recommend reading the tutorial00:26
aelknerand mastering the concepts00:26
aelknerthen later you could pass it on to her00:26
fsufitchesther li00:27
fsufitchshe'll be joining the dev mtg today00:27
fsufitchjust to "observe"00:27
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fsufitchaelkner: u still there?00:32
fsufitchi have a question about what i'm supposed to do with the bug00:32
fsufitchi found out how the ajax thing works to some degree00:33
fsufitchwith the browsercode interacting with the server00:33
fsufitchbut the server needs to give a response immediately00:33
fsufitchand the ajax needs to be activated on the client side to receive the new "status" of the message00:33
fsufitchi.e. if it's processed yet00:34
fsufitchso i don't see how i can make it stay at "loading" or "processing" until it actually is processed, then for it to change to "processed"00:34
fsufitchunless i make a refresh button pop up, but that just seems wrong00:34
aelkneri'm on the phone00:35
aelkneron sec00:36
aelknerit's mt grandmother's bday00:37
fsufitchhappy birthday to her :)00:37
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aelknerfsufitch: i'm back01:21
aelknermy grandmother sure likes to talk01:21
aelknerbut she's allowed01:21
fsufitchand u do too ;)01:21
fsufitchi dont mind01:21
fsufitchi got some extra work done for my ap us history class01:21
aelknerso i read your points01:21
aelknerand it looks like you have a really difficult problem on your hands01:22
aelknerunfortunbately i don't know ajax yet01:22
aelknerbut paul does01:22
aelknerperhaps you could email him for advise01:22
fsufitchi know some basic REGULAR ajax01:22
fsufitchbut not zope+ajax01:22
fsufitchthat's just insane01:22
aelknerpaul has been all over that01:22
aelknerso if you pick his brain01:23
fsufitchwell it seems like a good thing to get a grip on01:23
aelkneryou will help the cando team in a great way01:23
fsufitchok then01:23
fsufitchi'll contact him01:23
fsufitchdo u know who's going to be here for the 2000 hr mtg?01:23
fsufitchnitromaster is out of town01:23
aelknerwelsh promised he would be there01:23
fsufitchin NJ or someplace like that01:23
aelknerjason has to be as project manager01:23
fsufitchjason is not here01:24
aelknermy brother probably01:24
fsufitchsee the topic for this channel01:24
fsufitch"no lumiere at st-dev 2-18"01:24
fsufitchno light!! :(01:24
aelknerso it will be a short meeting01:24
fsufitchwell u'll get to know esther :-P01:26
fsufitchshe's not the best coder i've seen, (which is y she wants to join cando), but aside from that she's brilliant01:27
fsufitchshe's currently a freshman at MIT01:27
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fsufitchccarey: hello02:52
ccareyhi fsufitch02:52
fsufitchenjoying your looong weekend, ccarey02:52
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ccareyits been alright02:53
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fsufitchi'm fine02:53
fsufitcha little much work...02:53
fsufitchi'd have liked more relax time02:53
ccareydid you get my email about the bug fix?02:53
fsufitchi think i did but i didn't have time to check it over02:54
fsufitchcould you just fill me in on what's going on?02:54
ccareyin the skilldrivers container view for a section02:55
ccareythe user can't determine the section skilldrivers from the course skilldrivers02:55
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ccareyand the course skilldrivers should not be deletable from that page02:56
ccareymy fix was in the SectionSkillDriversView02:56
ccareyadded methods getSectionSkillDrivers and getCourseSkillDrivers02:57
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ccareyso the two can be separated02:57
fsufitchand you modified the pages that are being rendered using those to conform to the new methods?02:57
fsufitchjelkner: good evening02:57
jelknerfsuficth: good evening02:58
jelknernow if i could only spell your nick right ;-)02:58
ccareyfsufitch: for that page in sections, and that page in courses02:58
ccareynot sure where else it is used02:58
Lumierejelkner: f<tab>02:58
jelkneri didn't know about that02:59
aelknerjelkner: where's dwelsh?02:59
fsufitchccarey: ok02:59
jelkneraelkner: i don't expect him02:59
jelknerhe can't make 8 pm weekday meetings02:59
Lumiereno dwelsh02:59
aelkneroh well, last time we spoke he said he'd be here02:59
Lumierewho's here02:59
Lumieresay hi02:59
jelknerbut Lumiere has been empowered to make any decisions we would need him for02:59
aelkneri know who's in charge :03:00
jelknerso Lumiere is the man03:00
fsufitchLumiere: may i have the floor for a sec?03:00
Lumierefsufitch: as soon as everyone checks in03:00
Lumiereno andrew03:00
ccareyccarey is here03:00
fsufitchandrew is in NJ03:00
fsufitchor some exotic place like that03:00
fsufitchanybody else we're expecting?03:01
jelknerfsufitch: i've heard nj called a lot of things, but *never* exotic ;-)03:01
Lumiereok, first order of business03:01
Lumieredev updates03:01
Lumierefsufitch: what have you been working on this week03:01
Lumiereand what did you need to talk about?03:02
fsufitchwell, i've been working on that high priority bug i've been assigned03:02
fsufitchbut am running into some difficulties with ajax+zope03:02
fsufitchaelkner recommended i contact pcardune03:02
Lumierepcardune is the one to ask03:02
fsufitchso i'll do that03:02
Lumierehe wrote all AJAX in zope stuff03:03
aelknerthat will help greatly03:03
fsufitchand as for what i wanted to say03:03
fsufitchremember the email i sent about the new guy (Myles Maxfield) wanting to join CanDo?03:03
Lumierenew people joining is a dwelsh thing imo03:03
fsufitchhe quit, for reasons that i suspect being what aelkner calls "greedy"03:03
fsufitchthere's a new person, the person he got to contact me thru03:04
fsufitchand she's here now: haoqili03:04
jelknerfsufitch: actually, you should talk to me about that03:04
fsufitchjelkner: i'm talking03:04
fsufitchwat do u think?03:04
aelknerfsufitch: when did i say greedy?03:04
jelknerhere is what i told you:03:05
fsufitchaelkner: earlier03:05
jelkner1. have him jump on #schooltool03:05
Lumierejelkner: haoqili is here now03:05
Lumiereso 1 is done03:05
jelknerand get something from ignas to do03:05
jelkner2. do it03:05
aelknerfsufitch: I don't remember hearing about Myles, only Esther03:05
jelkner3. then once ignas sees what he can do03:05
fsufitchjelkner: haoqili hasn't touched zope ever, so this is somethign from 0 that we're talking about03:05
jelknerfsufitch: i understand03:06
Lumierefsufitch: we can't pay anything to start... but pcardune's tutorial is a place to start03:06
jelknerbut we won't be paying people to learn anymore03:06
jelkneryou guys were lucky that way03:06
fsufitchLumiere: haoqili knows that03:06
fsufitchshe wants to join here to learn better programming and maybe eventually be able to work for moneys03:06
jelknerfsufitch: you should help teach her03:06
fsufitchjelkner: that works03:07
jelknerthat was my diabolical plan03:07
jelkneri hoped to get enough of you into this that you would teach others03:07
fsufitchwhy not? :)03:07
jelknerfsufitch: so, did i answer your questions?03:08
fsufitchso i'll be spending some *unpaid* time teaching haoqili zope?03:08
jelknerwhat are friends for?03:09
jelknerbesides, its fun!03:09
fsufitchallright :)03:09
haoqiliThank you everybody, esp. fsufitch03:10
Lumierehi haoqili03:10
jelknerhaoqili: welcome to schooltool!03:10
fsufitchhaoqili: i told you we're a friendly crew. we don't bite ;)03:11
haoqiliI'm at college so I won't be able to spend lots of time doing this project, perhaps no more than 4 hours / week.03:11
Lumierehaoqili: by may at 4 hours a week03:11
haoqiliI'm here because I'm interested in learning about computers03:12
jelknerthat is the best reason to be here03:12
Lumiereyou will probably be close to being able to contribute in a positive way03:12
Lumierehaoqili: if you haven't noticed jelkner's a teacher03:12
Lumiereyea High School Computer Science...03:12
haoqilianywhere close to Virginia?03:13
jelknerin virginia03:13
Lumierethe CanDo part of SchoolTool is written by/for Arlington County Public Schools03:13
haoqiliAh I see.03:13
Lumiereccarey: what have you been working on this week?03:14
Lumiereanything you're stuck on need help with or need to talk about?03:14
ccareyi wrote a fix for my bug03:14
Lumierejust as a note while he types... fsufitch / ccarey / (nitromaster) you should all expect03:14
Lumiereto be asked what you did last week :)03:14
Lumiereat this meeting03:14
jelkneranyone heard from andrew?03:14
Lumierejelkner: fsufitch noted that he was in NJ03:15
fsufitchandrew, as i said is away to "exotic" places03:15
jelknerahh yes03:15
fsufitchbut i dont know what he's up to in work terms03:15
jelknerwhat about eldar?03:15
jelknerhave folks been in touch with him?03:15
ccareyi thought i could take a look another bug listed - sorting skilldrivers by date03:15
jelknerhe told me he could do 7 hours a week03:15
LumiereI talked to him a bit03:15
ccareybut i got stuck03:15
Lumiereccarey: just in general, check with me by email on wishlist or incomplete bugs ;)03:16
Lumierecause I have some information I could have sent you on that one03:16
Lumierethat would have helped clarify how to go about it03:16
aelknerLumiere: i need to get myself back onto the cando-checkins list03:16
ccareythat's good03:16
aelknersomehow i'm not getting any checkin notifications03:16
ccareyso what should i do with my fix?03:17
aelknerthat would help03:17
Lumiereaelkner: ask mg from pov03:17
Lumiereccarey: keep working on it03:17
Lumiereccarey and send me an email reminding me to dump the stuff about it out of my brain03:17
ccareyLumiere: i think its ready, so i'm not sure what else i can do with it03:18
ccareyi ran tests, and checked the pages03:19
fsufitchccarey: all the tests pass with no probs?03:19
aelknerLumiere: i don't see any code changes to the repository in trac03:19
aelknerwhat up?03:20
fsufitchaelkner: maybe because there were no checkins?03:20
fsufitchi haven't checked in anything03:20
aelkneri thought people were working on bugs?03:20
fsufitchccarey hasn't03:20
aelkneroh, that's right03:20
fsufitchwell yeah but no commits yet03:20
ccareyLumiere: actually Will Brady mentioned something else in the bug - in what page are skilldrivers being graded03:20
aelknerhe's with ignas on the other project03:20
aelknerand fsufitch has not checked in cause his project is research oriented03:21
aelknerand he and i disdussed it today03:21
ccareyLumiere: because in that page, he mentions that course drivers and section drivers are still mixed together03:21
Lumiereccarey: I'll help you with that03:21
aelkneri think he shouyld be out zope/ajax expert03:21
Lumierethat's what I'll send03:21
aelknerand get with paul to learn about z3c.ajax03:22
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Lumiereccarey: go ahead and commit it03:22
Lumiereccarey: worst case I revert03:22
aelknerfsufitch: you should just look on-line for z3c.ajax (name?)03:22
fsufitchLumiere: does ccarey have commit access?03:22
ccareywill do03:22
fsufitchaelkner: it's z3c.formjs03:22
fsufitchand i can't find anything on it03:22
aelknerfsufitch: thanks03:22
fsufitchi can find stuff on z3c.form03:23
fsufitchbut not useful03:23
aelknerso oaul worked on that as part of the Google summer of code03:23
aelknerhe had stpehan as mentor03:23
aelkneranyway, if you master that03:23
Lumierefsufitch: if he doesn't I'll poke eldar and ignas about it03:23
fsufitchmuch fun, especially with srichter there XD03:23
fsufitchthanks for the support, guys :)03:23
aelknerit will be important for getting cando under control03:23
aelkneruser interface-wise03:23
fsufitchajax can work miracles for UI03:24
aelknerbut don't overuse it03:24
fsufitchi learned so from my dad03:24
aelkneri want to warn about this03:24
fsufitchyeah, then it slows stuff down03:24
fsufitchtoo much comm overhead03:24
aelkneralways think about a novice looking at what you're doing03:24
aelknerif the novice is turned off, it's the coder's fault03:24
Lumierealso think about someone on a modem03:25
aelknerdojn['t always se complex technology03:25
aelknerwhen simpler solutipons work03:25
aelknerthink about:03:25
aelkner"why use ajax?"03:25
jelknerless is more03:26
aelknerwhat problem does is sove that javascript doesn';t already solve03:26
aelknerthe answer to that will come down to03:26
jelknereasier to understand, easier to maintain03:26
aelknera small matter of trying to reduce03:26
aelknerthe number of bytes transfered03:26
aelknerfrom server to browser03:26
fsufitch"do i really need my server to process this info, or can the communication be avoided?"03:26
aelknerwhen one considers that ajax is used to solve this problem03:26
aelknerusing it too prevelently is a big mistake03:27
ccareyLumiere: i got jinty to get me commit access to cando, but the username and/or password he gave me fails03:27
aelknerlet's make sure we clearly define why it's being used03:27
aelknerin doctests!03:27
aelknerok, enough said03:27
fsufitchaelkner: allright03:28
Lumiereccarey: then let him know and ask him to help (or bug eldar)03:28
Lumierejelkner / aelkner do you have anything you need to talk about?03:31
aelknernothing more03:31
jelknerno, and it is 8:3003:31
jelknerso let's call it a night03:31
jelkneruntil next week03:32
Lumiereok *tosses the bucket out the window*03:32
fsufitchLumiere: bucket?03:32
* Lumiere runs to get food03:32
Lumierefsufitch: why not03:32
aelknerand hits the guy with the gravel03:32
fsufitchi thought it was gravel03:32
Lumierebucket filled with gravel?03:32
jelknerth1a has gravel03:32
LumiereI haven't found mine yet03:32
jelknerLumiere has whatever he wants03:32
fsufitchwhat about your hammer?03:32
LumiereI may just start throwing computer parts out the window03:32
jelknercya all later03:32
fsufitchmy head *still* hurts03:33
aelkneri'm stepping away, too03:33
LumiereI haven't eaten03:33
Lumieresince 203:33
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fsufitchLumiere: go eat!03:33
Lumierewhat to eat though03:33
LumiereI may just go be ueber bad03:33
Lumiereand get popeyes03:33
fsufitchno crazytalk03:33
fsufitchhaoqili: yo03:34
haoqilianybody else around?03:34
ccareystill here03:34
haoqilidoes anybody have advice for how to get started?03:35
fsufitchi did recommend the zcontact tutorial thing that pcardune put us through03:35
fsufitchccarey: what do you think?03:35
ccareyyeah, that should still be online right?03:35
fsufitchit is03:35
haoqili:D  Thank you so much!03:35
fsufitchi sent it to haoqili alredy03:35
fsufitchalso, you might want to go through making your own little independent project03:36
fsufitchto flex your zope skills03:36
fsufitchafter zcontact of course03:36
ccareyits still up03:36
fsufitchlike, i made a forum thing03:36
fsufitchwhoa cool, it's ACTUALLY up online!03:36
fsufitchi got it from launchpad03:36
haoqiliwhat is?03:36
fsufitchthe zcontact tutorial i sent you03:36
fsufitchyou can see it in good working html online at the link ccarey gave03:37
fsufitchi would highly recommend bookmarking that03:37
fsufitchi still sometimes return to it when i have a basic problem that i'm missing the simple answer to ;)03:37
fsufitchhaoqili: any particular time you'd like to start going thru the tutorial?03:38
haoqiliFujitsu: tonight03:39
haoqilifsufitch: tonigiht*03:39
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fsufitchaelkner: you still there?05:30
fsufitchguess not05:30
fsufitchnvm then05:30
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aelkner_ignas: ayt?16:32
aelkner_a while back i removed new and edit requirement actions16:33
aelkner_now they are back16:33
aelkner_do you know how they got back in there?16:33
ignaslook at teggs16:33
ignasat eggs16:33
ignasand see what version of schooltool.gradebook is being used16:33
ignasand could you tell me in which checking did you remove these actions?16:34
ignasmaybe it was after I moved schooltool.gradebook into a separate egg16:34
aelkner_why does trac only go back to dec 19 of last year?16:36
aelkner_i think i made the change before that16:36
ignasmaybe trac is not too good at tracking svn mv16:37
ignasanyway - you should just checkout schooltool.gradebook the way you do with schooltool16:37
ignasas a development egg16:37
ignasand see if the problem is still there16:38
ignasif it is - then look at the schooltool.gradebook code16:38
ignasor you might try "bin/buildout -n" first16:38
ignasjust to see if more up to date eggs fix the problem16:38
aelkner_looking at schooltool.gradebook in trac shows that the menu items are still there16:39
ignasif you could point out the checkin16:40
ignasi could look at the reason why it's in there16:40
aelkner_ignas: i can't find the check-in16:47
aelkner_shoulc i just remove the menu items again from schooltool.gradebook?16:48
aelkner_ignas: i can remove those menu items from the requirements package16:56
aelkner_but that would mean removing tests16:56
aelkner_would that be ok with you?16:57
aelkner_look at schooltool.gradebook/src/schooltool/requirement/browser/README.txt16:57
ignaswell - schooltool.gradebook is yours now ;)16:57
aelkner_and tell me what you think16:57
aelkner_i seem to remember that you didn't care much about requirements16:57
aelkner_but i wanted to make sure16:58
ignasi think that they are very very broken16:58
ignasand don't really know how to fix them16:58
ignasthe bug that killed the Data.fs for one of the teachers is still in there16:58
ignasand I think i have shown you another way to cause a traceback using requirements in cando16:58
aelkner_i believe the problem with requirements comes from the inheritance mechanism16:59
aelkner_that schooltool.gradebook doesn't use17:00
aelkner_but that cando does17:00
ignasi see17:00
aelkner_and we will have to fix that (maybe at pytcon)17:00
ignaswill cando still work if you will remove these actions?17:00
aelkner_yes, because cando has its own sub-class of requirements called competencies17:00
ignasi see17:01
aelkner_with its own menu items17:01
ignasthen i think it's safe to remove the test17:01
aelkner_so that's why i know we don't need the menu items17:01
ignasyou might change the test17:01
aelkner_it's a theoretical thing17:01
ignasto access views directly17:01
aelkner_the requirements package itself is in theory17:01
aelkner_a package unto itself17:01
aelkner_and would need the menu items to do its own funcitonal tests17:02
aelkner_but then again17:02
aelkner_maybe we could expect that the requirements package is ALWAYS sub-classed17:02
aelkner_as is the case in practice so far17:03
aelkner_right now we have schooltool.gradebook.activities17:03
ignasif you only want to huide them for your client17:03
aelkner_and cando.virginia.competenices17:03
ignasthen having a layer17:03
ignasand overlaying menu items with empty viewlets17:03
ignaswould be a bit cleaner17:03
aelkner_but more work :)17:04
ignasit's always that way17:04
aelkner_and i was hoping to be done with this problem quickly17:04
aelkner_so i could return to sla work17:04
aelkner_would you mind if i remove the menu items and tests and later17:05
aelkner_put them back (say at pycon)17:05
aelkner_when we're dealing more with codebase than application issues17:05
* ignas is not optimistic enough to believe that we'll have time for everything we want to do in PyCon17:06
aelkner_i'm still leaning toward removing the menu items and tests17:07
aelkner_to solve both jelkner-gradebook and cando's problem with one quick change17:07
aelkner_without side-tracking myself back to two different projects17:08
aelkner_that don't deserve my interest right now17:08
ignaswell - it's your package, so if anything will break - you will suffer17:08
aelkner_i guess you don't mind if i decide this, right?17:08
ignasthe only reliable way to make these decisions is when the person who will feel the consequences makes them17:09
aelkner_it's just menu items that noone uses17:09
ignasit makes people learn ;)17:09
aelkner_if i'm the only one who stand to feel any consequences, then i'm comfortable removing the menu items17:10
ignasand - both ways actually are so easy to do, that you could have done it the right way instead of discussing it with me ;)17:10
aelkner_changing code is one thing17:10
aelkner_managing its deployment is another17:10
aelkner_that's where i could be stuck with days of work17:11
aelkner_there are two cando deployments and on jelkner-gradebook17:11
aelkner_and i'm hoping to avoid getting involved with them right now17:11
aelkner_anyway, i'm going to remove the menu items and tests and move on from this17:12
aelkner_or actually, and you will laugh at me, i could do nothing17:14
aelkner_and just instruct jelkner not to use the menu items17:14
aelkner_which he can easily avoid17:14
aelkner_then, when i have the chance, i could do the layer thing17:14
ignasthat's kind of the point of the excercise - you have way more information about the task than I do ;)17:15
aelkner_that i do17:16
aelkner_thanks for you input17:16
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th1aignas: Is there any reason your instructions wouldn't work as well on Debian as Ubuntu?17:41
ignasthe only reason is - i haven't tried them on plain debian17:41
ignasthough - i think they should work17:42
ignasth1a: by the way - what are the precise dates the hotel for PyCon is booked?17:42
th1aWhat precise dates do you need?17:43
ignaswell - i want to know when I should land in Chickago and when I should fly back home17:46
th1aThe current plan is arriving the 13th, leaving the 20th.17:46
ignasok, so 13th morning, 20th evening17:47
ignasok, thanks17:50
th1aignas: Does this setup include reportlab and the ms fonts?19:00
ignasno, reportlab will be disabled i think19:01
ignasyou still have to modify instance/schooltool.conf19:01
th1aTo point to the fonts?19:03
th1aCan't we have it point to the right place by default?19:04
ignaswell - i think the default points to the right place, but is commented out19:05
th1aWould it be bad if it was not commented out and the fonts weren't installed?19:13
mgedmincan we hook up to fontconfig to discover where the fonts are?19:13
th1aI mean, going forward it isn't going to be something people would not use.19:14
th1aI guess the problem is you have to enable multiverse.19:14
th1aBut ultimately, nobody wants a SIS that can't print reports.19:15
th1aSo it probably makes more sense to say "step 1: enable multiverse"19:18
ignasit depends on whether we want instructions for developers or users though19:20
th1aOK.  Developers don't need to do it first.19:21
* ignas is looking at the http checkout edition as one that is for people who suddenly want to fix a small bug in schooltool and send a patch19:21
ignasalthough now I am not sure who we are targeting19:24
ignaswe need something like a list of tasks users might want to accomplish19:24
ignaslike "I want to fix this small bug"19:24
th1aWe don't need to overthink this.19:24
th1aI'm just trying to write up what a developer should do and wandered off the use case.19:24
ignasyes, thats true19:24
ignasI just don't know what that developer will be doing with a readonly schooltool checkout19:26
th1aIt is for the curious.19:26
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th1aignas: Could you add bzr to "make ubuntu-environment"?19:47
Lumierecando has that for feisty19:49
Lumiereupdating it shouldn't be hard19:50
th1aIt should be trivial.19:51
th1aHeck, I should be able to do it ;-)19:52
ignasth1a: emm - problem is that Makefile is IN the bzr checkout19:56
Lumiereignas: so they need bzr19:59
Lumierebzr co schooltool-buildout && make ubuntu-environment20:00
Lumiereor if you want to be insane sudo apt-get install bzr && bzrco && sudo make ubuntu-environment20:00
ignasyes, that's the idea20:01
ignasso what is the point of adding bzr to make ubuntu-environment20:01
ignasif you have to "apt-get install bzr" before that20:01
Lumierethe other choice is to write a script20:01
Lumierethat they download20:02
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th1aignas: For the instructions you gave me I needed subversion first, not bzr.20:02
th1aI mean, it is a little thing.20:03
ignasthese are 2 different sets for instructions20:03
ignasthey do not follow each other20:03
ignasone is for schooltool200720:03
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ignasthe other one is for schooltool2008spring20:04
ignasyou get 2 different schooltool isntances20:04
th1aAll I'm saying is that the makefile checks for subversion, so it might as well check for bzr too.20:05
th1aIt's three letters.20:05
ignasok, just that - it's something that person working with schooltool2007 will not need... i mean - if there is no bzr - everything still works20:06
ignascommited the change20:07
th1aThree letters out of the HOWTO, three letters into the Makefile.20:08
ignashow can that be?20:08
Lumiereth1a: you cannot remove it20:08
Lumierefrom the howto20:08
ignasthat's my point20:08
Lumierepeople need to know20:08
Lumierethat you need bzr20:09
Lumiereto *DOWNLOAD* the makefile that installs bzr20:09
ignasif you only need schooltool2008 - you still have to install bzr first20:09
ignasand if you only need schooltool2007 - you don't need bzr20:09
ignasassuming that the curious will install 2007 first, and only then install 200820:09
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ignasis not a good idea ;)20:09
Lumiereassume -> ass u me20:09
th1aSometimes I think I should be a more hands on manager, and then conversations like this make me think it is a good idea to just leave you alone.20:10
ignasactually - the svn dependency is in there because if you manage to get schooltool-buildout from somewhere else (like download a tarball)20:11
ignasyou need svn because make file is checking out schooltool trunk20:11
th1aOh, I see, you DO have two different sets of instructions, as you said you do ;-)20:11
th1aOh, I see, you DO have two different sets of instructions, as you said you do ;-)20:12
th1aOK, so really, I can just get rid of one of these.20:12
th1aI don't really need 2007.20:13
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ignasi guess20:14
* ignas just does not know what do these curious people need to satisfy their curiosity20:14
th1aActually, this saves me 10 letters from the HOWTO, since I don't need to tell you to apt-get subversion first.20:15
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th1aignas: One design goal for the developers HOWTO is to make it look simple.20:24
th1aSo even if one has no intention of trying it, it looks good.20:24
ignasif only it was actually simple...20:25
th1aAlso, giving someone choices at this point is a bad idea.20:25
th1aYou've done a lot of work to make it simpler on the outside.20:25
th1aThis HOWTO is a lot shorter than the last version.20:25
ignasit's still complex if the person will want to make some changes or fix a bug in schooltool though20:26
th1aGetting it running is an important first step in that process ;-)20:26
th1aThe first thing someone is going to do is look at the instructions, and if they just look too hard: Game Over!20:28
ignasyes ;) let's lure them into the cave and *then* hit them with the stick :)20:32
th1aIt is much more effective than chasing them in the sunlight.20:34
Lumiereignas: bzr diff = win20:38
ignasLumiere: ?20:38
Lumiereif they want to send us a diff20:38
Lumierebzr and svn give utilities for that20:38
ignasLumiere: if only it was that easy20:39
ignasLumiere: don't forget that stapp2008spring, schooltool and schooltool.lyceum.journal are 3 different things20:39
Lumierethat's the pain20:40
ignasLumiere: the stapp2008 only includes well - itself20:40
ignasso if someone wants to fix journal - he has to make a development checkout of journal, and if he wants to fix schooltool - he needs a development checkout of schooltool20:40
ignasand only we know which one he'd like to fix ;)20:40
Lumiereignas: lol20:50
* ignas goes to investigate simple ways to add schooltool and schooltool.lyceum.journal checkouts to the stapp2008spring buildout20:51
th1aignas: I'm getting an error fetching ClientForm.  This URL looks suspect:
th1aThen again, it works in my browser, so I guess it was just down.20:58
th1aNever mind.20:58
ignasjust run make again, as this way of installing schooltool downloads everything from the net - connections sometimes time out20:58
Lumiereignas: we should script an automatic retry21:00
ignasLumiere: there is no reliable way to detect it on our side21:01
Lumiereignas: return value of wget21:01
ignasmaybe there is a buildout option21:01
ignaswe don't run wget21:01
Lumiereit's all done through python21:02
ignasdistutils actually i think21:03
Lumiereignas: I meant through something like python.urllib21:03
ignasyes, i think so, but it's not our code21:03
Lumiereignas: but that code should throw an Error21:04
Lumierewhich would be trivial to catch and retry on21:04
ignaswe run buildout uisng a shell script21:04
Lumiereignas: sounds like something to patch in z3.buildout21:05
ignasmaybe in distutils, don't really know the code21:05
th1aThe only reason I didn't immediately try it again is that it looked like there might be a missing period after "www"21:06
Lumiereth1a: yea21:06
th1aHm... what tests does "make testall" actually run?21:16
ignasin this case - pretty much none of them ;)21:18
ignasthese are tests for our upcoming release21:18
ignasand there aren't any at the moment21:18
th1aWill it run the full test suite in the future?21:18
ignashmm, i can add test-schooltool script21:19
ignasthat would run tests for schooltool egg and for schooltool.lyceum.journal21:19
th1aThat sounds more like what I'd expect "testall" to do ;-)21:20
ignasin theory - if it's an egg - it's not broken21:21
th1aIn theory, everything works!21:22
ignasgoing home now21:23
ignassee you21:23
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