IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2008-02-01

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th1aignas: So I'm trying to figure out something coherent to tell jelkner about what he should expect.16:20
ignasa good question, that I don't know the answer to at the moment16:22
ignasit seems that Cando has no "owner" at the moment16:23
ignasand the plan is to grow some interns to be responsible for cando development16:24
ignasbut really, I don't know anything specific about it :/16:24
ignasit seems that all the involved parties have different sets of needs in their heads16:24
ignaswho is the person leading and managing the CanDo project?16:25
ignasnot "giving money" and not "writing code", but deciding what code must be written and who will write it, and when + what will be released16:26
ignasor is the project completely committee driven at this point16:27
pcardunewhat happened to dwelsh?16:28
ignasdon't know, but I definitely haven't heard his opinion about the schooltool cando integration16:28
pcarduneI haven't heard anything from him in at least 4 months16:30
ignaswhat I will do (ccarey will do would be more precise)16:33
ignasis refactor cando to work just like lyceum school setup16:33
ignaswith working translations16:33
ignasegg packaging16:33
ignasafter every commit that passes tests16:34
ignasand make cando work with nightly schooltool builds16:34
ignasmaybe even get ccarey to extract dashboard out of schooltool (it's cando functionality that has been stuck into schooltool) into a separate egg16:36
ignasso he would get some more buildout egg practice16:36
* th1a realizes he covered up his irc window after asking a question.16:40
th1aOne issue here is that dwelsh and jelkner are essentially starting a new school.16:40
th1aI don't know if ignas has been informed of this.16:41
th1aOK.  Let's try to expand the context here then.16:41
th1aI guess it is my job to make sure everyone knows what is going on.16:41
th1aThis is all pretty recent, regardless.16:41
th1aSo yes, a proposal was accepted by the state or someone to close, re-design, and re-open dwelsh's school.16:42
th1aWith dwelsh probably being essentially assistant director.16:43
th1aAnd jelkner working there.16:43
th1aWhich means two basic things:16:43
th1a1) dwelsh and jelkner are going to be super-busy;16:43
th1a2) we'll have an even better test-bed for SchoolTool and CanDo going forward.16:44
th1aOverall it is good news.16:44
th1aAlso, it is likely that more state funding for CanDo will turn up.16:44
th1aBut basically, my perspective on what we're trying to do here, in the larger sense, is to give CanDo a set up which will be able to coast between gaps in funding without falling apart.16:45
th1aSo the less forked they are from SchoolTool, the less likely that they'll get out of sync if nobody is minding the CanDo store for six months.16:46
th1aI definitely am not ok with ignas becoming the de facto manager of CanDo, and I don't think that's the intention.16:47
th1aAlthough I am in favor of having ignas dictate how CanDo should handle its releases, etc., so that they will be in sync with SchoolTool in a rational manner.16:47
th1aI think that's in line with what ignas wrote above.16:48
ignaskind of my plan, get CanDo into the same state schooltool.gradebook is in16:48
ignasif I will break it16:49
ignasI will fix it16:49
ignasbut otherwise - i am not touching it16:49
th1aI guess the difference with what jelkner would like is primarily having you do lots of code reviews, which I've concluded is unrealistic.16:50
ignasseems so16:51
ignasI will look at the checkins and will try to point out if there is something that can and should be fixed easily16:52
ignasbut other than that it should be the responsibility of the programmers that are working on cando16:53
ignasit's still their project, not mine16:53
ignasso I am the federal government and they have their own State ;)16:53
ignasyou being the president of course ;)16:54
th1aOf course.16:59
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aelknerignas: did you get my email?17:59
aelknerpcardune_: how's it going?18:07
aelknerth1a: ayt?18:10
th1aaelkner: Hi.18:11
aelknerhey, i saw your cando discussion18:11
aelkneri was going to say18:12
aelknerdefinitely there's a problem with management of cando18:12
aelknerif the state of virginia would pony up the funds18:13
aelknerthen maybe they could actaully pay someone to do that job18:13
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aelkneras ignas said, play customer and decide what needs to be done18:13
pcardunehi aelkner18:13
aelknerhey pcardune18:13
aelknerthings don't change much in cando land, do they?18:13
aelknerthat could turn around later this year18:14
aelknerif the state gets as ecited about cando as they seem to start getting18:14
aelknermaybe by summer, they will decide that it's important enough to pay someone to manage it18:14
aelknerbut tom is right about jelkner and dwelsh having their hands full18:15
aelknerthere defintely will need to be a manager if it goes state-wide18:16
aelknerthere's no way around it what with all of the release issues and user stories18:16
aelknerand interns to be managed18:16
aelknerthere's a lot there that needs to be handled18:16
th1aWell, there won't really be new features this year.18:16
aelkneryou mean the rest of the semester, right?18:17
th1aThe tidying and consolidation is the main objective.18:17
th1aFor the year, really.18:17
aelknercause i know that the summer will bring many changes18:17
aelknerand by then we may have a commitment from the state for state-wide deployment18:17
th1aWhat changes?18:18
aelknerat the cando meeting last friday night18:18
aelknerwe discussed the user stories at the top of the list18:18
aelknerthings like global ids for comps18:18
aelknerright now there is a uri for each comp18:18
aelknerbut no convention, so that Lee Caps would change the ids each time he rerelases the list18:19
aelknerthat would be bad18:19
aelknerplus there's no convention for sols vrs comps18:19
aelknerthat needs to be decided18:19
aelknerthen of course there's the issue of data agregation18:20
aelknerthat the state would want18:20
aelknerinitially we thought SIS would be what we would use for that18:20
aelknerbut we've decided that SIS is a bit overkill18:20
aelknerhehe SIF + ZIS = SIS18:21
aelknera simpler solution would be for all candos to report their data to a central cando instance18:21
aelknerand let the State access that instance18:21
th1aWell, that's very much stuff that is going to happen if the state pays for it or not happen.18:22
aelknerdwelsh made a good point when he said18:22
aelkneractually, we don't have to do anything18:22
aelknerlet the states agregate the data manually18:22
aelknerthat's done in business all the time18:22
aelknerthen when they realize the cost in labor18:22
aelknerthey could come to the conclusion that it would be worth money18:23
aelknerto pay cando developers to automate it18:23
aelknerlooking at it that way, we don't have to beg them18:23
aelknerit will be their idea18:23
aelkneri think that makes good business sense18:24
aelknerit's amazing how much redendant data entry people are willing to put up with18:24
aelknerbut also how much they appreciate when someone offers a aoutomatic solution18:25
aelknerso I think it's a good plan18:25
aelknercan't remember the other user stories18:25
aelkneroh, except that they want the schooltool admin interface to look more like cando18:25
aelknerwhich i think we can get into at the sprint18:25
aelknerand basically the need to keep the interns working on the project is important18:26
aelknerso that they retain what they learned and keep progressing18:26
aelknerso bug fixes this semester are a good outlet for that18:27
aelknerand ccarey working with ignas on packaging is also great18:27
* pcardune hears crickets chirping18:28
aelknerdon't get the reference18:28
aelknerit's moring?18:28
aelknerare you in thailand18:28
aelknerthere aren't any crickets in the city18:29
th1aYes, you see, I have nothing to say about internal CanDo developments.18:29
pcarduneth1a gets it18:29
th1aIn that respect, they will continue to be separate projects.18:29
aelkneri head you18:30
aelknerth1a: i forget to mention that jelkner-builout depends on dashboard18:40
aelknerso removing it from schooltool would be a problem18:41
aelknertell you what, i'll respond to your email with my thoughts18:42
aelknerignas: ayt?18:50
mgedminhe's arguing in the next room18:54
aelknersorry i'm missing that :)18:56
th1aaelkner: I think the idea is to just move dashboard so there aren't different copies of it (one in CanDo one in SchoolTool).19:02
aelknercando doesn't have a dashboard19:03
aelknerwe removed it since it isn't needed now that we have an easy to use UI19:03
aelknerreally the dashboard was a workaround19:03
aelknera role-based view if you will19:03
aelkneri look forward to our debate on the merits of role-based views19:04
aelknerjudging from what you said at Educon it won't be a slam-dunk19:04
aelknerbut an intersting debate when all parties converge on pycon19:04
aelknerit's only in jelkner2007 cuase there's no role-based view otherwise, and jelkner desparately wanted one19:05
aelknerhe loves signing in as the teacher he is19:05
th1aThere is no debate, really.19:05
aelknerand going right to a view of all his gradebooks19:05
th1aWe just have to figure out how to do it without role-based views.19:06
aelkneri don't know how you envision one without the other19:07
th1aBy "role-based view" I mean splitting off "index-teacher.html" and "index-student.html"19:07
aelkneroh no, that's not what we did19:08
aelknerwe just had index.html behave based on the role19:08
th1aWell, don't call it that, then.19:08
th1aIt is the same view.19:08
aelknera rose by any other name...19:08
aelknerwe just need another term19:09
aelknerhow about role-reacting views19:09
aelkneri.e., the view reacts to the role of the user19:09
th1aHow about "better views."19:09
aelknerand behaves accordingly19:09
aelknerbetter is too general19:09
aelknerthe role does effect the view19:09
th1aI think we're all actually in agreement.19:10
aelknerrole-sensitive views19:10
pcardunei like "better views" myself19:10
aelknerthe idea being, all views should display that which the user would want to see19:10
th1aLess-crappy views are needed.19:10
aelknermo better views19:10
th1aaelkner: Your point of view implies that there is a strategy in the current views.19:10
aelknernot implying, wishing19:11
th1aNobody is arguing for, say, links to actions that you can't perform.  Those are just bugs.  We just need better views.19:11
aelknerenough said.  that's what we all want19:12
th1aThe confusion is partly because before aelkner got here we discussed entirely different views for different roles.19:13
th1aAnd I don't really know how you implemented what CanDo currently does.19:13
aelknerbriefly put19:13
aelknerwe created our "go" views as Stephan named them19:14
aelknerto behave differently depnding on the role of the user19:14
aelknerso the same index.html would display different links for students and teachers19:14
aelknerand it made the problem of "what's this for" all over the place go away19:15
th1aYes... we are all in agreement.19:16
aelknercan't wait to see schooltool behaving like that19:17
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ignasth1a: emm, not really, when I said that we could/should settle on roles, i meant that we'd have views for specific roles, like go.html19:47
ignasand go.html is the example of a role based view19:47
ignasbecause it riggidly dispatches on roles19:47
ignasnot on capabilities19:47
ignasfrom what i have seen it goes like: if student: do stuff   elif teacher: do other stuff19:47
ignaswhich is not extensible at all, because adding one more role makes you change the code19:48
ignasas for the dashboard19:49
ignashaving it in separate egg19:49
ignasmakes you add 'schooltool.dashboard' in your jelkner2007 setup.py19:49
ignasand you can have it, while the rest of schooltool just keeps on working without it19:49
ignasdashboard is very very rigidly defined, so it makes schooltool depend on schooltoo.gradebook, though schooltool is not using gradebook in any of it's default setups19:50
ignasif you have an "if" statement that decides what is being shown based on whether you are a teacher or a student and not based on "whether you have sections to instruct or you are a member of a section" it's a role specific view19:52
ignasaelkner: as for your question - no you don't need a custom update action, form library adapts the object to the interface20:03
ignasbefore assigning the values20:03
ignasso if field comes from IDemographics20:03
ignasbefore asigning the value the object will get adapted to IDemographics20:03
ignasif field comes from IPerson - the object will get adapted to IPerson20:03
aelknerthat's great20:04
aelkneri love the way formlib wirks that way20:04
ignaskind of nice20:06
ignasbut when you want a very custom form20:06
ignasand define a separate interface for all the fields20:08
ignasyou have to define an adapter to that interface20:09
ignaseven though your object has all the attributes20:09
aelknerwhy would you want a separate interface for all fields?20:10
aelknerisn't an intercace a colleciton of fields?20:10
aelknerso maybe you have a couple of interfaces20:10
aelknerto break the object up into chunks20:10
ignasyes it is, but when you want custom order with custom titles while skipping some fields20:10
aelknerbut a separate interface for each field?20:10
ignasno not for each field20:10
ignas1 interface for the new form20:11
aelknerall not each, my mistake20:11
ignaslike if you want a formlib form to edit half of the person attributes, with some of the fields having different titles and constraints20:11
th1aignas: Yes, you're right.  I don't want the viewlets to be strictly based on global roles.21:02
aelknerignas: a question about formlib21:09
aelkneri'm getting this when trying to call up the edit form:21:10
aelknerComponentLookupError: ((<zope.schema._bootstrapfields.Field object at 0x8890fcc>, <zc.resourcelibrary.publication.Request instance URL=http://localhost:7080/persons/manager/@@edit.html>), <InterfaceClass>, u'')21:10
aelknerIs there something i ned to register with widgets?21:10
aelknerdoes this look like anything you've gotten before?21:11
ignasnever seen it21:11
ignasyou might want to ask in Zope3-dev21:11
mgedminwhat's the schema like?21:12
mgedmincould be you're trying to have an edit form on something that inherits IContained21:13
mgedminand formlib is trying to create widgets for the __name__ and __parent__ fields21:13
mgedminwhich is not going to work21:13
mgedminthe error message is bad21:13
aelknerthat sounds like a good place to look21:13
aelkneri could pdb the lookup to see21:13
aelkneryes, it is contained21:14
aelknerso maybe i need to remove those fields21:14
mgedminform_fields = form.Fields(...).omit('__name__', '__parent__')21:14
aelknerbut basicperson doesn't do that21:14
mgedminor have a separate schema for meaningful stuff and then implement both it an IContained21:14
aelknerand it works21:14
mgedminor explicity select which fields you want to have in the form21:15
ignasaelkner: basicperson has a separate interface for a schema21:15
ignasi think21:15
aelkneroh yeah, that sounds familiar21:15
aelkneri'll try omitting those fields21:15
ignasoh IBasicPerson does not inherit IContained21:15
aelkneri don't need as much interfaces as basicperson objects have on them, so I prefer to just derive from IContained21:18
aelkneryay, that did the trick21:19
ignasemm - IBasicPerson inherits from Interface actually ;)21:28
aelkneryeah, and you have lots of other interfaces for reading and writing to the person21:37
aelknerand IContained gets included in there21:38
aelkneri just wanted to keep it as simple as i feel my needs reflect21:38
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