IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2008-01-31

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ignasccarey: hi00:17
ccareyhi ignas00:17
ignashow's the day?00:17
ccareyit's been fine; just got home00:17
ignasi see, should we start now, or should I wait for you to do whatever you usually do when you come home ? ;)00:18
ccareyi'm ready now00:19
ignasso how is your weekly calendar view work going?00:19
ignasor do you want to concentrate on CanDo buildout things at the moment?00:19
ccareyi just wanted to ask something about the weekly calendar view00:20
ccareyi'm creating dummy events in getCurrentWeek() to fill the spaces for now00:20
ignasI see00:20
ccareyis this okay, or should the page template be the one who fills in the spaces00:20
ignashmm, not sure I can say without seeing the code00:21
ignasI would not use the actual event class to fill spaces i guess00:21
ccareyit's been a little difficult trying to get the events in a table because00:22
ccareyin a table, you can only add by rows00:22
ccareybut the list has events for each day; so it's by column instead00:23
ignasyou are working on WeeklyCalendarView, yes?00:24
ccareyi'm thinking maybe the view needs a function that will return the week events by the period, rather than the day00:25
ignasyou could do that00:25
ignasi mean - you can make the getCurrentWeek function do that as well00:26
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ccareyok, i can try that then00:26
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ignasyou might even alternate between two templates depending on whether there is a default timetable schema set, or not00:27
ignasif that would make it more convenient to you00:27
ignasyou'd have to set templates in the class itself and override __call__ method for that I think00:28
ccareythe __call__ method for WeeklyCalendarView?00:29
ignas      template="templates/"00:30
ignasin zcml00:30
ignasZope3 creates index() method on your view that get's called from __call__ of the BrowserView class00:30
ignasfrom what I can recall00:30
ignasso if you will not set the template in zcml00:31
ignasand have 2 attributes00:31
ignaslike simple_template = ViewPageFileTemplate("foo/")00:31
ignasand tt_schema_template = ViewPageFileTemplate("bar/")00:31
ignasyou can dispatch among them in the __call__ of the view00:32
ignasso you would not have to do complex conditionals in the template itself00:32
ignasyou might be able to find examples of this pattern in some places in schooltool00:33
ignasfor example00:34
ccareyyes, i was just taking a look at that00:34
ccareyok, i think i have a good idea of what to do next00:35
ignasgood :)00:36
ccareyso will we start taking a look at the CanDo buildout?00:37
ignasdid you take a look at the projects i pointed to you00:38
ccareya quick look, but not in detail yet00:39
ignaswell - anyway, we have to set you up for some buildout usage00:39
ignaslook at
ignasand put something simmilar to that in your ~/.buildout/default.cfg00:40
ignasso that you would not have to download same eggs over and over again00:40
ignastell me when you're done00:41
ccareyok, i'm done00:43
ignasdo you have bzr installed on your machine?00:43
ccareyno, i haven't got it properly working00:44
ccareyhold on, one sec00:44
ccareyi'm missing bzrlib.breakin00:45
ignashmm, strange00:45
ignaswhat does "which bzr" say?00:46
ccareyooh, /home/chris/bin/bzr00:46
ignastry /usr/bin/bzr00:46
ignasor just rename your personal bzr00:47
ccareywhat should i do to rename it?00:48
ignasmv /home/chris/bin/bzr /home/chris/bin/bzr.bak00:48
ignasfor example00:49
th1aignas: everything seems have to completed without "section_events."00:49
ignasgood :) now just log in as teacher023 or teacher042 ;)00:49
ignasor whichever integer you like00:49
ignasand try looking around00:49
ignasand taking a lot of notes00:50
ignasccarey: when you will have bzr working do: bzr co --lightweight lp:~ignas/schooltool/schooltool.lyceum.journal/ in some place you want to check out the repository00:51
* th1a is making dinner now...00:51
ccareyignas: both folders with bzr are misbehaving - bzrlib version doesn't match bzr version00:52
ignasecho $PYTHONPATH00:52
ccareyactually, it's still looking for /home/chris/bin/bzr00:53
ignasrestart your terminal00:53
ccareybut which bzr is giving me /usr/bin/bzr00:53
ignasbash caches this information00:53
ccareyugh, still the bzrlib version error00:54
ignasexport PYTHONPATH=00:54
ignasand try again00:54
ccareyno luck, i'm trying reinstalling00:55
ccareyit must have been an installation problem00:56
ignasmaybe it was00:56
ccareyok it's checking out00:57
ccareyi have schooltool.lyceum.journal now00:57
ignasnow look at the files that are in the top level directory00:58
ignasthe files that you care about are buildout.cfg and Makefile00:58
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ignasMakefile because it is doing the build and test steps quite differently from the old style one that is in CanDo at the moment00:59
ignasand  buildout.cfg is the core of the new build system00:59
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ignasthe [buildout] section lists all the "parts" that will get built01:00
ignaswhen you run bin/buildout01:00
ignasother sections describe each part01:00
ignasmost parts have recipes01:01
ignasthat describe the way that will be used to build the part01:01
ignaszc.recipe.egg is for setting up eggs01:01
ignaszc.recipe.testrunner creates a script that will run tests (named the same way the part is named)01:02
ignasif you would type "make"01:02
ignaswhich you probably should do ;)01:02
ignasit will bootstrap buildout01:03
ignasand use the buildout to install the rest of the stuff01:03
ignastell me when buildout will have finished01:04
ccareyam i supposed to have a bin/buildout folder here?01:04
ignasno, not at the moment01:05
ignasthe file will be created01:05
ignasafter you run "make"01:06
ignasmeanwhile you might want to check out svn+ssh:// branch01:08
ignasif you haven't done so already01:08
ccareybuildout stopped -- couldn't install lxml 1.3.601:10
ignassudo apt-get build-deb python-lxml01:11
ignasnot build-deb01:11
ccareyok buildout is still running01:16
ccareybut i'm getting Permission denied (publickey) when i try to do a checkout01:16
ccareyof the cando-buildout-integration branch01:17
ignascould you post svn info url in your cano checkout01:17
ignasbecause we might be using different ways of checking out cando01:17
ccareyhow do i do that?01:18
ignasgo to your cando01:18
ignasand type "svn info"01:18
ignasyou will see the url of your checkout in there somewhere01:18
ignasso you shoud do "svn co"01:20
ignasinstead of the svn+ssh one01:20
ignasbecause you are using https to access svn repository01:20
ccareyok i made a checkout01:21
ignaswe will be working with that checkout01:21
ignasso we'd not break anything ;)01:22
ignasoh, nearly forgot - the buildout.cfg [buildout] section01:22
ignascontained one more important line01:22
ignas"develop = ."01:22
ignasyou see - buildout can be used to deploy egg based applications, without any sources available, it will download everything from the internet ...01:23
ignasbut when you want buildout to use "cando" or "schooltool" checkout instead of the egg from the internet01:23
ignasyou check it out somewhere and add it to the develop line01:24
ignasfor example - if you have schooltool.lyceum.journal buildout01:24
ignasand want to work on schooltool at the same time in the same buildout you can either01:24
ignasmake a schooltool checkout inside of your buildout01:24
ignasand add "develop = . schooltool"01:24
ignaswhich means - there are 2 development eggs - one in the directory "schooltool" and another one in the directory "."01:25
ignasthe one in "." is schooltool.lyceum.journal in this case01:25
ignasi sometimes use "../schooltool" if i want to use development version of schooltool while not having it in the same directory01:26
ignasanyway - has your buildout finished yet?01:26
ccareyyes it finished01:26
ignasnow if you would look at bin directory in your buildout01:26
ignasit has scripts like "test" "buildout" "i18nextract" and a couple more from what i can recall01:27
ignasso test is pretty obvious - it runs tests01:27
ignasyou can try running "bin/test" from your buildout01:27
ignasto check if they pass01:27
ignasbin/buildout is used when you modify your buildout.cfg01:28
ignasby adding new parts or changing existing ones01:28
ignasor when you want to update your sandbox with new eggs01:28
ignasusually buildout downloads newest eggs by default01:28
ignasbut it's slow01:28
ignasso i have the line in buildout.cfg01:28
ignasthat says "newest = false"01:29
ignasso if I want new eggs i do "bin/buildout -n"01:29
ignasi think aelkner added a "make update" rule to the makefile to do svn up + bin/buildout -n01:29
ccareyit's there01:30
ignascool :)01:30
ignasit even says svn up01:30
ignasthough it's a bzr checkout01:30
ignasour goal is to make cando use the same infrastructure01:31
ignasso you probably can just copy and paste the make file and bootstrap.py01:31
ignasto your cando checkout01:31
ignasand buildout.cfg01:31
ignasand version.txt.in01:31
ignasand MANIFEST.in01:32
ignasand fix buildout.cfg to point to cando rather than schooltool.lyceum.journal01:32
ignassame for Makefile01:32
ccareyok =)01:32
ignasoh and replace the bzr revno line with "svnversion >> version.txt"01:34
ccareythis is all with cando-buildout-integration right?  not the current cando?01:37
ignaswe don't want to break sandbox for everyone just yet ;)_01:38
ccareyright =)01:38
ccareyok i made the changes01:40
ignastry "make"01:42
ccareyCouldn't find index page for 'cando-buildout-integration'01:46
ccareyalso couldn't find distribution01:46
ignasthe egg for "eggs = "01:46
ignasis cando01:46
ignasnot cando-buildout-distribution01:47
ccareyok, make finished01:48
ignaswow :)01:49
ignasbin/make-schooltool-instance instance/01:50
ignasif that works01:51
ignasbin/start-schooltool-instance instance/01:51
ignasand look whether it's cando ;)01:51
ccareyits missing a schooltool.gradebook egg01:54
ccareywait, its there01:55
ignaslisppaste5: url01:56
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.01:56
ignasfull error message including commands you executed01:56
ignasplease ;)01:56
lisppaste5cpcarey pasted "cando buildout make error" at
ccareyconfigure.zcml is missing from the egg01:59
ignascando still depends on schooltool release01:59
ignasand these are nightlies02:00
ignasso you should include schooltool/common/configure.zcml02:00
ignasin the zcml02:00
ignasfix cando/cando2007/configure.zcml02:00
ignasand try running it again02:00
ccareyi included the package and i'm getting the same error02:05
ignasyou should remove the <include package="schooltool" />02:06
ignasand place the common include in there02:06
ccareyok that worked, i'm at a second error, let me go ahead and post that02:09
lisppaste5cpcarey pasted "cando buildout make error 2" at
ignaslet me guess02:13
ignasaelkner removed IStatistics02:13
ignasfrom the trunk02:14
ignasand Cando is still using it02:14
ignasI guess we'll have to postpone this one02:14
ignasbecause its quite late in here, sorry02:14
ccareyno i understand02:14
ignasyou should talk to aelkner and find out what happened to IStatistics interface02:14
ignasor just look at svn commit logs02:14
ignasand see what, who and when did something to the interface02:14
ignasAuthor: aelkner02:15
ignasDate: 2007-12-15 01:08:07 -0500 (Sat, 15 Dec 2007)02:15
ignasremoved unused statistics adapter02:15
ccareydid you want to set a cut off time so you don't have to stay up too late?02:15
ignasnah, it mostly depends on how sleepy I am02:15
ignasand I am quite sleepy ;)02:15
ignasso - yell at aelkner for breaking cando02:16
ccareyok, so i'll look into that02:16
aelknermy ears are burning here02:16
ignasby breaking schooltool.gradebook public interface02:16
aelknerwhat did i break?02:16
ignasstill uses IStatistics02:16
ignasand you have removed it from schooltool.gradebook02:17
aelknerwe don't need it in cando02:17
ignasso - either fix cando or fix schooltool.gradebook02:17
* ignas goes to sleep02:17
ignassee you all tomorrow02:17
aelkneri'll fix cando02:17
ccareythanks ignas02:17
ignasaelkner: backport your fix to cando-buildout-integration branch please02:18
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aelknerccarey what's up?02:19
ccareywe were working on starting a schooltool instance with the cando-buildout02:20
ccareyand IStatistics was missing02:20
aelknerccarey: i'm wondering why cando works at all if the statistics package is really gone02:23
aelkneri mean, once it got to that import, it would crash02:23
aelknerand people are using cando in the field with no crashes02:24
aelknerthe answer is that cando is using a schooltool egg02:25
aelknerand that people haven't tried to update it02:25
aelknerso it still has the statistics package02:25
aelknerand the last time i tested cando, i.e., before my last commit02:26
aelknerthere was still a statistics package in schooltool02:26
ccareyi see02:26
aelknerso you're working in a brach of cando?02:27
ccareywell we working with cando-buildout-integration which gets its eggs from cando02:28
aelknerccarey: what happens if you just get rid of the import in the file ignas mentioned above?02:29
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ccareyi can see what happens02:30
aelknerline 52 of virginia/browser/ should get the axe02:31
aelknerthat's an import that it doesn't even use02:31
ccareyit didn't seem to have problems with removing the import02:32
aelknerdid it fix your problems?02:32
ccareyi think so, it just continued on to another problem here02:33
ccareySchoolToolMessage import in cando/newskin/global.py02:33
aelkneryou could probably blame ignas for that one.  i didn't change schooltool to no longer have SchooltoolMessage02:36
ccareyi changed line 52 of to02:37
ccareyfrom schooltool.common import SchoolToolMessage as _02:37
ccareyand it's running fine now02:37
aelknerah, so you found out where he moved it?  good work02:39
ccareyi think that's it for now02:39
ccareyi got it running and that's where ignas wanted to stop02:39
ccareyaelkner: i'm signing off for today02:41
aelknerok, cya02:41
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pcardune_if anyone is interested, i'm writing a zope tutorial here:
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th1aignas: In case you're wondering, the buildout works on Fedora.16:05
* th1a has his desktop running Fedora for OLPC hacking.16:05
ignasi think the version that depended on libxml2 had some problems with fedora16:06
th1aIt is a good thing.16:12
th1aWell, as far as I can tell I can't get a python2.4 rpm for Fedora 8 though.  So I compiled that.16:13
th1aSo that's one hitch.16:13
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aelkner_ignas: ayt?16:20
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ignasth1a: interesting, what are they using ? python2.5 ?16:24
ignasaelkner_: yes16:25
aelkner_After you ledt last night, I helped ccarey get his build to work16:25
ignasi saw that16:26
aelkner_that involved removing the unused import of IStatistics16:26
th1aignas: Yes, 2.5.16:26
aelkner_but also reacting to your movement of SchooltoolMessage to schooltool.common16:26
aelkner_I have a problem with cando now as a result16:26
aelkner_Cando itself is tied to schooltool release16:26
aelkner_so now cando won't work as your move to common is not there16:27
aelkner_i could wait to change that one import16:27
aelkner_until we go with a newer schooltool egg16:27
ignaswell - you should16:27
ignasthat's why i have a branch16:27
ignasfor the buildout-integration work16:27
ignasbecause the branch also pulls cando to depend on the upcomming schooltool release16:28
aelkner_but when you back-port it to cando, it will break16:28
ignasinstead of the old one16:28
aelkner_unless schooltoll release is more up to date16:28
ignasor someone changes the find-links and setup.py16:28
ignasold cando will have to be cleaned up anyway16:29
ignasbecause they will be using buildout16:29
ignas"old cando sandboxes"16:29
aelkner_what will cando-buildout use for schooltool?  release?16:30
ignasnightlies at least until the new release comes out16:30
ignasbecause well - if we are going to release cando and schooltool together16:30
ignasthey will have to be tested to work together16:31
th1aignas: Let me just note that I don't consider getting a CanDo release together to be a requirement for Hardy.16:33
ignasi know, it does not add more work for me ;)16:33
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wjohnstoignas: ayt?16:35
wjohnstoactually, I have to go, class is ending16:37
wjohnstoI'll email you16:37
aelkner_ignas: the thing about cando now is that it depends on a stable schooltool so that if schooltool temprarly breaks, cando is not efeected16:40
aelkner_if we change it to depend on nightlies, we loose that safety16:40
ignaswell - if 2 projects are to go together16:41
ignasthey will have to have the same release cycle16:41
ignasso - cando users will have to use stable cando + stable schooltool16:41
ignaswhile unstable cando will be developed in parallel with unstable schooltool16:41
aelkner_that's fine16:41
ignasor else we won't be able to release together16:41
aelkner_as long as cando users are not using unstable cando, there will be no problem16:42
aelkner_but we can't back-port your branch into cando stable16:42
th1aIf CanDo users are tracking unstable, that's a problem, period.16:42
ignasyep trunk is by definition - unstable16:43
ignasit is not a "release"16:43
ignasreleases live in branches16:43
ignasand are tagged16:43
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ignasaelkner_: no more Wild West Development practices for Cando ;)16:49
aelkner_how do you mean?16:50
ignasfrom what i understand release process for cando is:16:50
ignasback up data.fs16:50
ignassvn up16:51
ignasmake run16:51
ignaswhich works for 1 place16:51
ignasbut if you are going to release something, at least tagging releases16:51
ignassetting version numbers16:51
ignaspackaging them16:52
ignasand then deploying packages16:52
ignasis a bit more reliable16:52
ignasespecially if more than one instance is deployed16:52
aelkner_we can discuss our release plans at pycon16:58
aelkner_until then, we don't have to use the buildout in the field16:58
aelkner_we only have two deplyments16:59
aelkner_and that will still be tru until the summer16:59
aelkner_so we can stay with using cando trunk which depends on stable schooltool16:59
ignasso if I understand correctly - you want me to take care of cando and schooltool integration on the code and project level, especially when it comes to releasing, while not changing anything in your setups or development/deployment practices?17:02
aelkner_i'm not saying that.17:04
aelkner_the whole cando-buildout thing got started when jelkner wanted to tie cando release with schooltool17:05
aelkner_that's a publicity thing, not a practical one17:05
aelkner_practically speaking, we have cando in the field, and it needs to be stable17:06
aelkner_that's my only concern17:06
ignasnot the only one17:06
ignasyou want to be able to change it whenever you want17:06
ignasas in - check in some code into trunk17:06
ignassvn up17:06
aelkner_we can do that now17:06
ignasand it's deployed17:06
ignasyes, and it seems that this concern is also very important to you17:06
aelkner_so we're ok if we continue to depnd on the stable schooltool17:07
ignasnot on the stable17:07
ignason the "schooltool release -1"17:07
aelkner_that's fine17:07
aelkner_that's what i mean by stable17:07
aelkner_the latest release17:07
aelkner_rather than what cando-buildout depends upon17:07
ignasno not the last release, but the second last17:07
ignasbecause you see - schooltool will release schooltool.stapp2008spring17:08
aelkner_is that what cando is depending on in trunk now?17:08
ignascando will still be using schooltool.stapp200717:08
ignasaelkner_: no cando depends on schooltool2007 release17:08
aelkner_is that what you mean by release -1?17:08
aelkner_so -1 mean 'one year ago'?17:09
ignasmore like 6 months17:09
ignasyou see - if you will not have unstable cando branch that is tracking schooltool nightlies17:09
ignasyou won't be able to release with the new schooltool17:09
ignasit's like using Zope3.317:09
ignasand then trying to get your package into debian at the same time Zope3.4 is release17:10
ignasschooltool is using Zope3.4 because we will release depending on Zope3.417:11
aelkner_when the summer comes we can get cando to depend on schooltool.stapp2008spring i suppose17:11
ignasif cando is using schooltool2007 and has no branch tracking schooltool2008 - you will only release with schooltool200717:11
ignasyes you can, but it will very seriously hamper the ability of schooltool project to change things17:11
ignasschooltool is planning 6 monthly releases17:12
ignasso either we include both releases in ubuntu17:12
ignasor we make them always backwards compatible17:12
ignasso it's in theory "integrated" and in practice - cando is living it's life as far from schooltool as possible17:13
ignasas in - farther away than schooltool is from Zope317:13
aelkner_once again, things to solve this summer17:15
aelkner_i'm not going to fill my head with these issues when we don't have a need to deploy the new buildout17:15
aelkner_ignas: i'd like to ask an unrelated question17:17
aelkner_how does the bin/start-instance end up finding the site,.zcml root?17:18
aelkner_i found school.zcml in the instance dir17:19
aelkner_who looks for that?17:19
ignasso from what I understand - there will be no Hary Cando release17:21
aelkner_i wouldn't say that17:22
ignasand all the jelkners cando/schooltool/buildout integration plans will be implemented after the summer17:22
aelkner_hardy is in august, right?17:22
ignasapril i think17:22
aelkner_so we'll release the hardy cando after the summer17:22
aelkner_or during the summer i should say17:22
aelkner_after we've worked out the kinks17:23
ignasoh, so you are not planning on being in ubuntu17:23
aelkner_oh, maybe we will, but it won't be me that works on that17:23
aelkner_that will have to be for the cando team17:23
aelkner_i'm not really part of that now as there isn't the funding17:24
aelkner_and i'm full-time on the sla work17:24
aelkner_but if jason and the interns can get that going, then fine17:24
* th1a returns from his shower.17:24
ignasto quote jelkner: "When SchoolTool gets integrated in into the core Ubuntu distro, CanDo gets integrated with it."17:25
aelkner_th1a: could you make jeff understand that i can't spend all this time dealing with cando release17:25
th1aI'm trying to understand all the moving parts here.17:25
th1aWe need to be able to:17:26
th1aa) bugfix the current CanDo.17:26
th1ab) have a process for whatever CanDo is being used next fall.17:26
th1aFor a) we need to continue doing whatever crazy-assed thing CanDo has been doing.17:27
aelkner_crazy-assed?  i take exception :)17:28
th1aFor b) there is no big rush.  We've got until summer to come up with some packages that work as proper extensions to SchoolTool.17:28
aelkner_ignas seemed to think we needed it for april17:28
aelkner_but i think the summer is fine17:28
ignasok, so why was jelkner planning for ccarey to work on it during pycon?17:29
th1aWell, the upshot is that any feature enhancements won't be released until six months out.17:29
th1aIt seems like getting the ball rolling now makes sense.17:29
th1aUnstable CanDo needs to track unstable SchoolTool.17:30
ignasth1a: there is no such thing as stable cando17:30
aelkner_yes there is17:30
aelkner_which depends on schooltool200717:30
th1aWell, deployed-unstable and undeployed-unstable.17:30
ignaslook at buildbot17:31
aelkner_which one?17:31
th1aWhich what?17:31
ignasit's green at the moment17:32
ignasbut i have seen a lot of buildbot failures17:32
ignasin my mail17:32
ignasin cando-checkins17:32
aelkner_that was because cando buildbot needed to fix an eggs prblem17:32
ignasi see17:33
aelkner_jason just needed to rm -rf the eggs dir to get cando builtbot to work17:33
ignaswe seem to be disagreeing on what "stable" means though17:33
ignasand on whether cando needs milestones for deployment or not17:33
aelkner_cando users want to be able to get fixes right away17:34
aelkner_that may have to change after the summer17:34
aelkner_as we bring in more users17:34
aelkner_but for now17:34
ignasor may not have to change, as long as you have two branches17:34
ignasrelease one17:34
aelkner_we just change the trunk and have them svn up17:34
ignasand trunk17:34
th1aCanDo will have to switch to a proper release model.17:34
ignaswhich would yield to users using release branch, developers working on trunk17:34
ignasand backporting fixes to the release17:35
th1aUpdates will have to come through apt-get.17:35
ignasnot necessary, just proper svn release tagging would do17:35
aelkner_th1a's point is well taken17:35
th1aWell, *eventually* via apt-get.17:35
aelkner_jelkner would prefer the apt-get approach17:35
aelkner_starting next fall i figure17:36
aelkner_once again, things to work out this summer in my opinion17:36
ignasthen we don't do any buildout stuff until summer17:36
aelkner_i could be involved more then as sla will slow down some at that point17:36
aelkner_right, th1a?17:37
ignasthere is no point in doing it if it will be abandoned for 4 months after being completed17:37
th1aI guess the question in my mind is whether there is anything to be gained by starting now.17:37
ignaswell - if i will fix the integration branch now, and it will have to be merged into trunk in 4 months after being finished17:38
ignaswe will get more conflicts17:38
ignasand no one will be using the branch for anything anyway17:38
aelkner_ignas: are you going to be able to attend the cando meeting sat noon our time?17:38
th1aI don't like these Saturday meetings.17:39
aelkner_i don't either17:39
ignasmaybe, it's 7pm Saturday for me17:39
ignasso i can't guarantee i won't be watching a movie, or eating out during that time17:39
ignasi mean - it's Saturday evening17:39
th1aI guess whether "no one will be using the branch anyway" is the question.17:39
aelkner_jelkner will have to reconsider the meeting time17:40
th1aIs there an advantage to having it around for ongoing development, or is it only relevant to packaging and deployment?17:40
aelkner_ignas: if you're there, we can discuss this; otherwise, it can wait17:40
ignasth1a: i think there is17:40
ignasth1a: but it adds more work for cando deployment and development17:40
aelkner_jelkner's right at least for getting us to think about this sooner rather than later17:41
aelkner_but we may need to decide to hold off on solving it17:41
aelkner_until the summer?17:41
aelkner_i mean, there is no user story for having the hardy release ready for april17:41
aelkner_just a wich on jelkner's part17:42
ignasi'd still go with "start using proper development practices even though it's more work" approach17:42
ignasbut yes - it's not me who will be doing that work17:42
aelkner_me neither17:42
ignasas in - I don't develop Cando features not do bugfixes17:43
ignasso it will add work for people who do these tasks17:43
th1aI don't think changing their release practices for what's deployed now is something to worry about.17:43
aelkner_jelkner's hope is to get the interns ready to handle these issues17:44
aelkner_so to that end ccarey has been working with ignas17:44
aelkner_but ccarey will be expected to handle this in the long run17:45
aelkner_not ignas or aelkner17:45
aelkner_i'd say we continue with what ccarey is doing17:45
aelkner_and at pycon, we could discuss a more formal practice for going forward17:46
aelkner_does that make sense?17:46
th1aI'm not sure what makes sense.17:47
aelkner_pycon will find all interested parties in the same place drinking the same beer17:47
aelkner_at that point, i'm sure we can work out what makes sense17:47
aelkner_at least to a drunk17:47
aelkner_but for now we can still benefit from ccarey's work17:48
aelkner_we're not going to be changing cando that much that we would have serious conflicts17:49
aelkner_when we try to get the buildout released17:49
ignasaelkner_: what ccarey is doing is what you initially were against - ccarey was working on cando integration with unstable schooltool. So you think we should continue even if it might turnout that all the work performed was just an elaborate training exercise?17:49
aelkner_the training exercise is benefitial in itself, but17:50
aelkner_it won't be only an exercise17:50
aelkner_we've got a buildout now17:50
aelkner_and at pycon it will only be a small matter to get it solid for release17:50
th1aI don't understand the scenario by which it is only a training exercise.17:51
aelkner_that's my point17:52
ignaswell - we do all the work, and in pycon we decide that cando is only going to start using "current" schooltool in summer17:52
th1aOK -- that's quite likely, right?17:53
aelkner_no prob17:53
aelkner_we decide it so at pycon17:53
aelkner_and we keep on top of it until the summer17:53
aelkner_we could have a buildbot for it and everything17:53
th1aIs anyone going to be writing new features for CanDo in the next 4 months?17:53
aelkner_then, in the summer, we make sure it's ready for deployment to the new Virginia sites17:54
aelkner_mostly bugg fixes at first17:54
aelkner_i figure summer sprints will be where new features come in17:54
aelkner_but front-loading the process with having ccarey working on buildout is a good idea17:55
aelkner_so we'll be ready in the summer to integrate everything17:55
ignas"integrate everything"?17:56
aelkner_get everyone using the buildout including the present cando sites17:57
th1aWell... again, the goal should really be having a real release ready.17:58
ignasaelkner_: so you disagree with jelkner on the point that it  must "happen now"17:58
th1aNot switching people to buildout.17:58
aelkner_sounds like an unfunded mandate to me :)17:59
th1aI think jelkner is just going on the intuitive feel that sooner is better than later.17:59
th1aIt is generally a good assumption, if there is a risk things are going to diverge further.17:59
ignasth1a: I kind of agree with him on this point, as in - I think that having cando with the same process as SLA and lyceum is a good idea18:00
ignaseven if that process might not be as lightweight :/18:00
aelkner_jelkner definitely wants cando to work like lyceum and sla18:00
th1aI think that's the point.18:01
ignashaving cando interns work with the old schooltool while working on cando bugfixes18:01
ignasdoes nothing to integrate them18:01
ignasinto working on schooltool18:01
ignasbecause they can't change the schooltool code18:01
th1aWell, they'll have to port the bugfixes.18:01
ignasth1a: you mean we would declare the buildout-integration branch the "new trunk" and have them work on it18:02
ignaswhile backporting fixes to trunk?18:02
th1aI guess that's more logical.18:02
ignasi mean, but swapping that and having it the sane way would take like 2 svn switch commands in the deployed sites18:03
ignasyou'd just say that the current cando trunk is "release 0.1"18:03
ignasbranch it, tag it18:03
ignasand make instances svn switch to the release branch18:03
ignasthey'll still be able to do "svn up" stuff18:03
ignaswhile interns will be working on "cando 0.2dev"18:03
ignasand backporting bugfixes to the release branch18:04
th1aSo is that the answer then?18:04
ignaslike proper grown up developers18:04
aelkner_i'm not sure what you mean by that18:05
aelkner_sorry, confused on the branch it tag it statement18:05
aelkner_sounds complicated18:05
ignasthe main disagreement seemed to be (if I understood correctly) whether new cando development should proceed using schooltool release, or development schooltool version18:05
aelkner_that's a good question18:06
ignasaelkner_: but it's industry standard practice i think18:06
ignasthe tag release, work on trunk, backport fixes18:06
aelkner_i'll take your word on that.  it's just that i can't visualize the whole process just yet18:07
aelkner_i'd like to see this on a whiteboard18:07
aelkner_this can wait for pycon, right?18:07
aelkner_in the meantime, ccarey works on the branch18:08
aelkner_and bur-fixes are done in turnk18:08
aelkner_to be release immediately18:08
ignasyes the backport to trunk can wait18:08
ignasit would be nice if you would "svn merge" the fixes you do on trunk18:08
ignasto the branch18:08
ignasit would save work later18:08
aelkner_that should be no problem18:09
aelkner_though we don't need to merge every time we fix a bug18:09
aelkner_we could do the merge at pycon18:09
aelkner_or sooner if there seems to be a lot of bug fixes18:09
aelkner_there might not be so many18:09
aelkner_in the short term18:10
aelkner_and pycon's not too far away18:10
th1aSo I think ignas has this figured out.18:12
ignasby the way - who is responsible for the deployed cando instances?18:13
aelkner_for one, yes18:14
aelkner_jelkner has the other18:14
aelkner_and wbrady or mgallagher handle that one18:15
aelkner_i gave them the procedure18:15
aelkner_which involves svn up on the cando trunk18:15
aelkner_before restarting the server18:15
aelkner_they always backup Data.fs to be safe18:16
ignasI see, so if I will want to change the release procedure, or have them change the sandboxes a bit, I should talk to them18:19
aelkner_ignas: i have some questions about lyceum versus sla18:20
aelkner_i created sla and sla-buildout by cloning jelkner2007 and jelkner-buildout18:20
aelkner_but lyceum seems quite different18:20
aelkner_for instance, you don't have the lyceum package under schooltool18:20
ignaswell - yes, because lyceum started out with it's own namespace18:21
ignasback then schooltool was not a namespace package18:21
ignasso you could not have schooltool.something18:21
ignaswithout having it in the same repository18:22
aelkner_sla IS in the same repo18:22
ignassame checkout18:22
aelkner_sla and sla-buildout are in trunk18:22
aelkner_alongside schooltool18:23
ignasnot *in*18:23
ignaswhich is the key difference18:23
ignaswithout schooltool being a namespace package18:23
ignasand schooltool was not a namespace package in the 2007 release18:23
ignasyou can't have other eggs using "schooltool"18:23
ignasin their package hierarchy18:23
aelkner_sla and sla-buildout are not eggs18:24
aelkner_i just check out sla-buildout18:24
ignassla-buildout is not18:24
ignassla is an egg18:24
ignasyou are not releasing it as an egg18:24
aelkner_and it in turn checks out schooltool and sla as sibblings18:24
ignasbut it still can be packaged as an egg18:25
ignasand even deployed as an egg18:25
aelkner_and sla include stapp200718:25
aelkner_but i don't need that18:25
aelkner_i just need to be able to svn up it18:25
ignashaving sla as an egg18:26
ignasmakes it easier for you to pull in additional dependencies18:26
ignasmakes it possible for me or someone else to refactor and package useful components of sla into separate eggs18:26
ignasand is a good thing to have18:26
ignasschooltool is an egg too, and cando is an egg actually18:27
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ignaseven though it hasn't got it's packaging procedure straightened out18:27
aelkner_but i don't need to repackage sla components into anything for the next 6 months18:28
ignasoh and you could not have schooltool/sla if it was not an egg18:28
aelkner_it isn't an egg18:28
aelkner_and i do have schooltool/sal18:28
ignasit is an egg just like jelkner2007 and lyceum and tizard18:29
aelkner_if you look in trunk, that's the way it is now18:29
ignasif you only see it in development mode18:29
ignasdoes not make it "not an egg"18:29
aelkner_fair enough18:30
aelkner_i don't want to think about it as an egg for now18:30
aelkner_i just want to develop it18:30
ignasyou are welcome18:30
aelkner_too many things to consider18:31
aelkner_i just want to develop and deploy here18:31
ignaswell - yes, developing applications is difficult, especially if you are trying to do it in a future proof manner18:31
ignaswell - it's what you are doing18:32
aelkner_i prefer not to future proof when the future is not even certain18:32
aelkner_XP practice and all18:32
aelkner_XP dictates delvelop, release quickly18:33
ignasXP works well, unless you use ZODB18:33
aelkner_get user feedback sooner rather than later18:33
th1aignas: lol18:33
aelkner_hw does ZODB impact XP?18:34
ignaslike any database, it makes it difficult to perform certain kinds of refactoring18:34
ignasit makes it difficult if not impossible to have "no releases"18:34
ignasand work with a flowing trunk18:34
* pcardune watches a losing battle for someone...18:34
ignasis pcardune a zopeproject convert already or should he get baptized too?18:35
aelkner_i don't see the difficulty with the flowing trunk18:35
ignasyou never had the task "make this 6 month old database work"18:36
pcarduneignas: it makes it easier to write a tutorial...18:36
pcarduneignas: I was actually going to write a customization of zopeproject to better suit the tutorial... one without formlib18:36
ignasaelkner_: when you try to give your software to 100 people rather than deploy it on 2 servers some things become more difficult than others18:37
ignasas for - no extraction for the next 6 months18:38
ignaswell - that's what I thought about lyceum.person and lyceum.journal18:38
ignasnow I know how to move classes from one place to another using evolution scripts18:38
ignasand know how the process of removing BBB classes works18:39
aelkner_what are BBB classes?18:42
ignasclasses that are still in there to keep database backwards compatibility18:43
ignasyou see - XP is easy to do when you can refactor anything18:43
ignashow can you do proper XP if you can't remove a module, because it has the schoolbell.person.Person class in it for backwards compatibility?18:44
ignasapparently - you can, but only if - you have public proper releases every month or six months or so, or you control all the places your application is deployed18:45
aelkner_what's the acronym for BBB?18:45
ignasit's a comment tag18:45
ignasXXX - for bad things18:45
ignasTODO - for things to do18:45
ignasBBB - to note that this specific place if in there due to backwards compatibility18:46
ignasand should not be removed even if it looks useless18:46
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ignasand yes - if you would look at schooltool18:48
ignasit still has a module named schoolbell18:48
ignasyou would still have to have a module called "journal" in cando, if you had released cando in gutsy18:49
th1aignas:  OK, first question... why do I see so many sections in my list of calendars when I log in as a teacher?19:18
th1aIs that all the sections I've ever taught?19:18
ignasyou don't like it too, yes?19:19
th1aSo that really should be sections from the current term?19:19
th1aIt is pretty obviously bad.19:19
th1aI mean, I want to *see* those on my calendar,19:19
ignascould you file a bug so we'd have a permanent place for discussion19:19
th1abut I don't need to see them on that list, and I don't need to turn them on and off individually.19:19
ignasi know, just that i don't know the proper solution yet19:20
ignasbecause if you would look at your calendar a year back19:20
ignasthe overlay legend would show nonsense19:20
ignasas in - it would show colors for this term19:21
ignaswith events from the last term19:21
th1aOK.  Discussion needed.19:22
th1aOne solution would be to only show items in the legend that have events on that day/week/month.19:24
ignasseems good19:25
ignasany Ideas for yearly view?19:25
ignasit might span 2 terms or even 3 terms in some schools19:26
th1aIn terms of the legend?  It isn't really a big deal if the yearly view has a hairy legend.19:27
ignasi guess yes19:27
th1aAll you're going to do with that is jump to a date, I'd think.19:29
ignasi think so too19:30
ignasi'd like to have timetable events "blue or green" independent from section and a legend "timetable events" for the yearly view19:30
ignasbut it's not necessary19:31
ignasand is more of a wishlist19:31
th1aignas: What about this
ignashmm, you should try it19:57
ignasi think it will work in most cases now19:57
ignasthanks to ccarey fixing event links ;)19:57
ignasnow when you click on an event - you ho to the edit view19:57
ignasand the referer will point you back to the calendar you came from19:57
ignaswhile before you were crossing the event view view19:57
ignasand the view view was the referer of the edit view19:58
ignasif it is still active19:58
ignasit is fixable at least19:58
ignasif you'd check it on the current schooltool19:58
ignasi'd be very glad to either close the bug19:58
ignasor give it to one of the interns that is looking for a task19:58
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th1aWell, the bug is still there if you're editing a section event.20:04
th1aignas: Why don't you point an intern at it.  Have them test all the cases and fix 'em.20:06
* pcardune is glad that interns are being put to good use20:09
th1aWell, we're trying.20:10
th1aIt is hard.20:10
ignasnot too hard20:11
th1aHard to keep the interns going?20:11
ignasccarey is doing quite well on the tasks that i am giving him20:11
pcarduneth1a: you should just make all of them keep twitter accounts that they have to update every hour20:13
th1aOr, make them log on to IRC.20:14
pcardunefsufitch ping20:14
th1aignas: Are you getting bug emails from LP?20:15
th1aignas: Do you want more?20:32
ignasth1a: the ui for enter and tab is a bit different20:36
ignaswhen you select a row or a column20:36
ignasenter transfers you to the next cell in the selected area20:36
ignasso you could easily fill in grades for one person or one date20:37
ignasjust hitting "grade" + <enter> + "grade" + <enter>20:37
ignasit was something teachers asked me to do20:38
ignasand they seem to be fine with the concept20:39
th1aWell, it is a little less standard than doing like Excel.20:39
ignasit is, yes20:39
ignasi'll talk to them about it20:39
th1aCould you make tab go along a row at least?20:39
ignasi didn't know that excel did it this way ;)20:39
ignaswhat tab does now?20:39
ignasif you have a row/column selected20:40
th1aReturn does that now?20:41
th1aI still think I'm using a Commodore 64.20:41
ignasi'll make tab go "left" by default if there is a cell selected then20:42
th1a"left?"  not right?20:42
ignasnot "left"20:42
ignasI'll try and list you all the other missing things that lyceum people would like to see20:42
ignasso we could prioritize appropriately20:43
ignasfor the upcoming release20:43
ignasi have a menu for lyceum that shows all the sections for a teacher20:43
ignaslinking directly to the journal20:43
ignasso teacher can always easily access his sections20:44
ignaslike " > navigation" " > actions" " > my sections"20:44
ignasi'll backport it to schooltool.lyceum.journal20:44
ignasbecause it seems like a good idea (for me at least)20:45
th1aSeems practical.20:46
ignaslyceum liked it better than the dashboard approach20:46
ignasok, thanks for the comments, i have to go now20:46
th1aGood night!20:46
ignasbut if you'll see some more things you don't want to have in the release20:46
ignasjust file a bug, or write an email20:47
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