IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2008-01-29

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ignaspcardune_: hi :)12:43
pcardune_ignas: hi12:47
ignashow's Thailand?12:48
pcardune_ignas: hot12:48
pcardune_how's lithuania/12:48
ignaswell - it's the end of January and it's only 0 degrees celsium12:49
ignaswhich is quite warm ;)12:49
pcardune_sounds like it...12:49
ignasglobal warming FTW12:49
ignasi mean - usually you get like -10 to -1512:50
ignasand we had like +5 for a few days12:50
pcardune_well it's around +40 here12:50
ignasmaking tea should take less time I guess ;)12:51
pcardune_ignas: you don't even have to boil it, it comes out hot enough12:52
ignasso what do you think about the whole "lets make cando a part of schooltool idea" ?12:53
pcardune_ignas: well, it doesn't seem to mean very much in terms of code12:53
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pcarduneI think they just want schooltool developers to take control12:54
pcarduneit gets us free support essentially12:54
ignasyeah, that's what i have been thinking too ;)12:55
ignasI'll have to think of some way of remote training program I guess12:55
ignashow to see the code that sucks in 24 hours12:55
pcarduneif cando is a part of schooltool, then it will be released with schooltool, which means it will be under the strict requirements of lithuanian programmers and jinty12:55
ignasyou see - there are no Lithuanian programmers, and jinty has no time to read the schooltool mailing list12:56
ignasnot even talking about checkins12:56
pcardunehence why it is slightly problematic...12:56
ignaswe need more sprints12:57
pcardunethere aren't enough software developers for the amount of money the powers that be have to pay them12:57
pcarduneyeah, sprints is the only way I think12:57
ignasI am not very experienced in teaching people remotely12:57
ignasespecially when it comes to elegant code and good software design practices12:58
pcardunewell, after going through two attempts at remote teaching, I think the best way is to just flat out write documentation12:58
ignasany examples of what you mean by documentation?12:59
pcarduneignas: actually, i mean more like tutorials12:59
pcarduneor even more so, like a book12:59
ignasyeah, have been thinking of that12:59
ignaswriting up all the gotchas of ZODB that I know13:00
ignasin a blog post format13:00
ignasor something13:00
pcardunethat could work13:00
pcardunebut at that point, you might as well write a book13:00
ignas20 ways to shoot yourself in a leg using ZODB ;)13:00
pcarduneI would actually really like to write a book on this topic13:01
ignasI find writing very difficult13:01
pcardunei mean, a) you have to type anyways in irc during the "lesson". b) people learn at different paces.13:02
pcarduneignas: I'm trying to write a tutorial on using z3c.* components13:02
ignasI wouldn't have gone past the first chapter if i was writing it ;)13:03
ignasthe "$ easy_install zopeproject"13:04
ignasis the thing i just can't give to any user ;)13:04
pcardunehmm? I don't understand what you mean13:04
ignaswell - it implies:13:05
ignasstep 1 - have root on your machine13:05
ignasat least on ubuntu13:05
ignassometimes or actually up until gutsy it implied "sudo pytohn"13:05
ignasto get an up to date version of setuptools13:05
ignasi think it still implies sudo apt-get remove docutils13:06
ignasbecause buildout does not play well with system python13:06
pcarduneignas: actually, docutils seems to be ok13:06
ignasI understand that it will work for some people, but my engineering part of the brain just starts screaming about the things that might have go wrong, and have gone wrong13:07
pcarduneignas: yeah that is true.  In the introduction, i'm planning on putting an audience section13:07
pcardunethat says, only read this if you have already done some zope development and are very familiar with python13:07
ignasi am using a hacky script that isolates schooltool sandbox from system python packages while using the system pyton13:08
pcardunethe tutorial isn't for noobs, its for zope developers who are still doing massive checkouts13:08
pcarduneI expect them to be able to solve their own problems relating to actually getting zope running13:08
ignasjust to avoid all the or "sudo easy_install zopeproject and dependencies" game13:08
ignasi see13:09
ignasmakes sense13:09
pcarduneI would love to see a "using python with buildout"13:10
pcardunethat is completely unrelated to zope13:10
pcardunewhich talks about the problems you mention with system python and everything13:10
pcarduneor maybe just a "how to develop a python egg"13:10
pcardunethose would be prereqs for my tutorial13:10
ignasI'd love to see that too :)13:10
ignasbut most python developers don't think it's a problem worth solving13:11
pcarduneI don't understand enough about those things to write it though... at least nothing beyond pure basics... which might be enough13:11
ignasand I am not an authority on buildout or distutils13:11
ignasas in - i spent hours trying to prove that these are actual problems in vain :(13:12
pcarduneI'd just like to distill some of the massive amounts of documentation into simpler tutorials to get people started13:12
pcardunemaybe I could send it to the real authorities for edits13:12
ignasyeah, that's one of my master plans ;)13:13
ignaswrite the thing the way I see it13:13
ignasand leave it up to the people who actually know the stuff to flood me with corrections13:13
ignasby the way you might want to have a look at:
ignasit's a script i use to try out eggs isolated from my system13:14
ignasyou pass it a name of an egg, and it installs the buildout that depends on the egg13:14
ignasin the same directory the script is in13:15
ignasdepends on python and unix13:15
ignasnothing else ;)13:15
ignasa nasty hack, but saves schooltool sandboxes from compiling python2.4 every time13:18
ignasand makes sure schooltool sandbox runs on anything from edgy to gutsy13:19
ignasthe same hack, not the same script13:19
ignasthough most Zope3 people think that you should just either "compile your python, install buildout int it" or "install buildout into your system using root" or "learn how to use virtual python"13:20
ignaswhich all are viable options13:21
pcardunewhat is virtual python?13:21
ignaswell there was a thing called virtualenv i think13:21
ignasthat did some crazy shell stuff13:21
ignasand then it evolved into a virtualpytohn egg13:22
ignasthat does something simmilar as my script does13:22
ignasbut instead of 1 command13:22
ignasyou download an egg13:22
ignasand if you can't install it (and you can't if you are not root, or read mgedmin blog)13:22
ignasyou can just take a script out of it13:23
ignasand create the same fake python (maybe a bit better)13:23
ignasand install all the packages into it13:23
ignasi think this is the one13:24
ignasthere is even
ignaswhich is nice13:24
ignasthe only downside of the buildout creating virtual python is13:24
ignasthat you must have buildout prior to running buildout script ;)13:24
ignaswhich is what my easy_buildout script does ;)13:25
ignasas in - chicken and egg problem - buildout is the best way to build virtual python separate from your system, but to run it you must have buildout13:26
ignasinstructions for easy-install  setup13:26
ignasso if someone would converge marius tutorial to bootstrap buildout13:27
ignasthen buildout.cfg with virtual_python13:27
ignasto set up python for your application that is not affected by your system eggs13:27
ignasand top it off with the bundle building thingies that J1m and scrichter have created13:28
ignasyou would get a framework that can build and install your egg based application from a tarball13:28
ignaswithout downloading anything13:28
ignasif all the compile time dependencies are satisfied13:29
pcarduneignas: do you have a blog?13:29
ignaswhich would be kind of cool ;) and we could distribute cando and schooltool as big tarballs that just work13:29
pcarduneyou should write some of this stuff down13:29
ignaswill try to ;)13:29
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root__ignas: ayt?16:41
root__I removed my eggs dir from my sla schooltool instance, but make does nothing16:42
root__that fails to find to find zc.buildout.buildout16:43
root__isn't that because the eggs are missing?16:43
root__ignas: there seems to be a circular dependency there16:46
root__buildout is depended on eggs, but eggs is dependent on buildout being run?16:46
ignaspython bootstrap.py16:46
root__that works, but shouldn't make file run bootstrap if there are no eggs?16:48
ignasmake file16:48
ignaschecks for bin16:48
ignasso you should rm -rf bin as well16:49
root__actually the make file checks for python before running bootstrap16:49
root__obviously, removing the eggs was a mistake on my part16:50
root__i guess i need to learn to trust the buildout process you developed :)16:50
root__the reason i removed the eggs was becuase i had failing tests and wanted the latest on everything16:51
root__bin/buildout would have given my that, so that was my mistake16:51
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root__ignas: i'm still getting a ton of failing unit tests16:53
ignas"bin/buildout -n" gives the latest16:53
root__that are all over the place16:53
ignaslisppaste5: url16:53
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.16:53
ignaspaste them16:53
ignasso i could see what's wrong16:53
ignasi'd assume that you are missing some new dependencies that can be fixed by sudo apt-get build-dep python-lxml16:53
lisppaste5aelkner pasted "make test failures" at
root__build-dep yielded:16:56
root__Errors were encountered while processing: udev libgphoto2-2 libsane libsane-dev python-setuptools16:56
root__E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)16:56
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root__ignas: any ideas?17:13
ignasapparently CAS if enabled in test-schooltool section17:20
ignasbreaks schooltool tests17:20
ignascan you lisppaste buildout.cfg17:20
ignaswhy does your test include both sla and schooltool?17:22
ignasi mean - I have two different sections17:22
ignasone that runs lyceum tests17:22
ignasand one that runs schooltool tests17:22
ignasif i am working on both of them17:22
ignasif you are only developing sla17:22
ignaswhy run schooltool tests too ?17:23
ignason the other hand17:23
ignasyou might want to look at the problem and try to find a way17:23
ignasto make schooltool tests pass17:23
ignaswhen schooltool.cas is in pythonpath17:23
ignas(schooltool.cas installs a configuration hook)17:23
ignasso you might either disable the hooks in unit/functional tests17:24
ignasor make CAS configuration handlers fault tolerant17:24
root__i don't understand either option, sorry17:25
root__first, i don't see what you mean by configuration hook17:26
root__looking at schooltool.cas only yields two brwoser pages and a authentication plugin17:26
root__there's this: zcml:condition="have cas_authentication17:27
root__in the configure.zcml17:27
root__but i wouldn't know what that means17:27
root__i see get_configuration in, but i'm not sure yet when or why that's called17:30
ignaslook at setup.py17:32
ignasit's an entrypoint17:32
ignaslook at in schooltool/app17:33
ignasor somewhere around there17:33
ignasto see how schooltool configuration plugins are loaded17:34
ignasthat part fails, because it loads the plugin even if it's unit tests17:34
root__found def get_schooltool_plugin_configurations()17:36
* mgedmin wonders where th1a disappeared17:36
ignasso you should either stub it in tests, or rewrite it to be a bit more robust or rewrite the configuration in schooltool.cas17:37
root__are all my errors relared to schooltool.cas?17:39
root__i'll explain why i test schooltool17:39
root__i svn+ssh sla and schooltool in case i need to change either17:40
ignasso add 1 more sections17:40
ignasand test schooltool changes separately17:40
ignasto be 100% sure17:40
ignasthat tests pass without SLA17:40
root__what would [test-schooltool] section look like, and how do I test schooltool changes separately?17:41
ignaswell - just like your [test] section17:42
ignasbut without the sla bit17:43
root__i was interrupted by an impromptu meeting in my office, but i'll try what you just suggested17:57
root__so i added the new section17:58
root__do i need to remove schooltool from the [test] sectiion?17:59
root__and what do you mean by "test schooltool separately?"17:59
root__ignas: it's troubling to me that this is so complicated18:02
root__if i have to develop schooltool in a different checkout, i will18:02
root__maybe it's too much to ask to have the schooltool checked out from within sla-buildout18:03
ignasno, not too much18:03
ignaslook at [test] sections18:04
root__so i DO need to remove schooltool from test section18:05
root__i still get the same errors18:06
ignasdid you run18:06
ignasafter modifying buildout.cfg18:07
root__no, sorry18:07
root__now i get 0 tests18:07
root__bin/buildout said uninstalling test and installing test18:08
root__so that's because i have no tests yet for sla, right?18:08
root__but then, why the test-schooltool section if no tests are run for it?18:09
ignasto create one more script18:09
ignasyou must add it to "parts" too18:09
ignasso it would get built18:09
root__Installing test-schooltool.18:10
root__make test still does nothing18:10
root__bin/test-schooltool is running the tests18:11
root__and the unit tests passed!18:12
root__looks like i need to change the make file to run bin/test-schooltool -u and -f for ftests18:13
root__ignas: is this right?>18:13
ignasthe makefile is for SLA18:13
ignasnot for schooltool18:13
ignasyou only need the test-schooltool section if you are developing schooltool as well18:13
ignasthe main difference is that schooltool and sla are 2 different things18:14
ignasnot the same ;)18:14
ignaseven if they are in 1 buildout you are still developing 2 things18:14
root__that's why i asked if it was a mistake having schooltool as an svn checkout from within sla-buildout18:14
ignasbut you still can make "make test"18:14
ignasrun both bin/test and bin/test-schooltool if you like it that way18:15
root__i could18:15
ignasit's not a mistake18:15
ignasit's convenience18:15
* ignas does not use make test18:15
ignasyou can't pass parameters to make test18:15
ignasand you do separate full test runs before commiting anyway18:15
root__well, i was hoping for an enviornment where i could develop sla or schooltool18:16
root__as the case may be18:16
ignas"or" ?18:16
root__and be able to run make test and ftest before commiting anything18:16
root__most of the time i would be deveoping sla18:17
root__the OR part is if i needed to change schooltool in order to get something in sla to work18:17
ignasyou see - it makes running SLA and testing SLA with a modified schooltool easier18:17
ignasbut schooltool changes should still make sense even without SLA in the context18:18
root__ignas: i'm getting confused from developing on my machine versus installing on sla machine18:23
root__would it be better if i were to not test on sla machine?18:23
root__i.e., remove [test] section from buildout.cfg18:23
ignasit would be better if you would not checkout schooltool on sla machine18:23
ignasbut still have both test and test-schooltool there18:24
ignasin case something breaks18:24
ignaswill not work very well without a checkout18:24
root__i like the idea of making sure that something isn't broken18:24
root__and i could remove the schooltool checkout18:24
ignasi like the idea of making sure i am using a "released configuration"18:25
ignaswell - "packaged egg"18:25
ignasapproved by buildbot18:25
ignasbecause buildbot only packages an egg if all the tests pass18:26
ignasif you have a checkout18:26
ignasyou might modify it on that machine18:26
ignasor svn up into something that is broken18:26
ignasjinty is using deb packages for deployment instead of eggs for example18:26
root__yet another option, ugh?18:27
root__so many options are causing me to loose my grip18:27
ignasbut only things that are "packaged up" are deployed, so you could get the same configuration you had released 2 months ago18:27
ignasi am not suggesting eggs18:27
ignasi am using a checkout myself, because i want lyceum capable of updating translations18:27
ignasand that is difficult to do with eggs shifting version and moving the translation file18:28
root__the reason i would want to use a schooltool checkout at sla is to avoid having to wait for buildbot18:29
root__i would never commit from sla, but svn up is faster than buildbot, right?18:29
ignaswell - how are you sure that you didn't break anything without buildbot?18:30
ignasyou see - buildbot never makes mistakes18:30
ignasit always runs all the tests18:30
ignaspeople tend to forget, skip, miss and etc18:30
ignasare you 100% sure no one will commit a change while you will be typing "ssh sla"18:31
ignasit's a tradeoff18:31
ignasyou can use checkout18:31
ignasi mean - I am using one18:31
ignasyou can have both test and test-schooltool18:31
ignasin your makefile18:31
ignasbecause you will want to run full test runs18:31
ignasfor both of them18:31
ignaswhen deploying18:31
root__i like to have a simple procedure so that i don't make a mistake18:32
root__so that's why i like the following18:32
root__svn up18:32
root__make test18:32
root__make ftest18:32
root__make run18:32
ignasyou might want to add "bin/buildout -n" sometimes18:32
root__couldn't make file do that?18:33
ignasit could, if you want it to be done always18:33
root__make update should do svn up and bin/buildout18:33
* ignas does not like updating *all* the eggs all the time18:33
ignasyep, you can add or modify make update18:33
root__i think i'll do it that way18:34
root__ignas: how does this look for a make update block?18:40
root__.PHONY: update18:40
root__update: svn up cd sla && svn up cd schooltool && svn up bin/buildout -n18:40
root__the newlines get stripped in irssi18:41
ignaswhy && not "\n" ?18:41
root__it wouyld look slike this18:41
ignasyou don't need cd18:41
root__.PHONY: update18:41
ignasyou can "svn up sla"18:41
ignasand "svn up schooltool"18:41
root__i'll do that18:42
root__i'm testing my make update, and i get Error: Couldn't install: lxml 1.3.618:44
root__what sudo apt-get do i need to do again?18:44
ignassudo apt-get build-dep python-lxml18:45
ignasshould help18:45
ignasthough reading the error message should help ;)18:45
root__that did help18:48
root__the error message wouldn't have, it was about a million gcc errors18:48
root__ignas: looks like i'm all set now to do the following:18:57
root__develop on my machine18:57
root__when i want to deploy to sla18:57
root__shit down the server18:58
root__make update18:58
root__make test18:58
root__make ftest18:58
root__make run18:58
root__i think i prefer this simple method18:58
root__makes sense?18:58
ignasi mean - it has to be convenient to you18:59
ignasnot to me ;)18:59
root__now onto another question18:59
root__we discussed a layer for sla18:59
root__so that i could register different person views18:59
root__and you suggested looking at lyceum18:59
root__i did, and i don't see where you create a layer and use it19:00
root__did i mis-understand?19:00
root__ignas: i thought i understood what you meant, but i was disappointed not to find any example of it19:01
root__ignas: i don't find such a file there19:03
root__looked in trac and it's not there either19:04
ignastrac is for svn19:04
ignaslyceum is in bzr19:04
root__maybe it's been a while since you commited changes?19:04
ignasi should delete the branch in svn in some time i guess19:04
root__ignas: if i want lyceum on my machine, not for developing, what would the bzr command be?19:07
ignasbzr co --lightweight
ignaswould work19:08
root__what's the lightweight for?19:08
ignasdo it would not pull the whole repository19:09
ignas70 megs19:09
ignasand would only construct the source tree with a reference to the repo on the web19:09
root__so i can't update from this checkout and acidentally mess with your code, right?19:10
ignasyou can't mess my code up anyway ;)19:11
ignasit's mine19:11
ignasyou can only branch it19:11
ignasand upload somewhere on the internet19:11
ignasbut making a full branch from launchpad is quite slow19:11
ignasso i am suggesting you to do a lightweight checkout19:11
ignasbecause you won't be committing anything anyway19:12
ignasto save hard drive space and time19:12
root__cool.  does bzr up from within the lyceum dir give me your latest changes?19:12
root__i mean, i have the latest now, but say, a couple of weeks from now, i want to make sure i have the up to date copy19:13
ignasi am not sure about it19:24
ignasyou might need to do bzr pull19:25
ignasnot bzr up19:25
ignasbut you should just try it to find out19:25
ignasask #bzr folks about it19:25
ignasthey will be more than glad to explain19:25
ignasor direct you to the bzr web page19:25
ignasthat contains detailed documentation19:25
root__thanks, i'll figure it out.  thanks for the extensive help today.19:26
ignasglad to help19:27
root__btw, bzr up worked, though you hadn't commited anything, so it said:19:32
root__Tree is up to date at revision 90.19:32
ignasit might say that even after i commit19:35
ignasthat's why i was not sure19:35
ignasi know bzr up does not update if you do a full checkout19:35
ignasit might/should work in a lightweight one19:35
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th1amgedmin: ayt?20:18
mgedminoh, hi, th1a!20:18
mgedmindid you get my email last week?20:19
th1aYes... I keep forgetting to respond.  Sorry.20:19
th1aYeah, I can order it for you.20:19
mgedminbirthday present for me :-)20:19
th1ais root__ aelkner?20:20
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ignasth1a: yes20:21
th1aOK... guess I should read this backlog...20:22
root__th1a: root is aelkner20:26
pcarduneroot__:  what happened to aelkner?20:26
root__i'm signed on as root here at sla20:26
mgedmin/nick aelkner20:27
root__i just need to remember to sign on as myself20:27
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aelknerso now i'm me20:27
aelknerpcardune: hello, hello20:29
ignasby the way - isn't using irc as root considered dangerous??20:29
pcarduneprobably yet20:29
pcarduneisn't using anything as root considered dangerous?20:29
ignaswell - anything does not connect to the internet20:30
pcarduneyeah, but you could accidently type rm -rf /20:30
pcardunewell, I know you, ignas, would not do that... but there those of us who would...20:31
ignasi mean - i know that there were occasions when bugs in irc clients like BitchX would allow others to type "rm -rf" for you20:31
aelknerwell that would be a problem20:31
ignasand root can always su to another user i think20:31
ignasor do "sudo -u"20:32
aelkneri'll try and remember to sign on as aelkner before starting irssi20:32
aelknerignas: you mentioned another solution to my irc blockage here20:35
aelknersomthing about ssh pass-through20:35
ignasi am doing:20:35
ignasssh -L
ignasand in my local irc client /server localhost:777720:36
ignasit's called ssh forwarding20:36
ignasand is a very very nice thing when you must work around various policies20:36
aelkneri tried:20:39
aelknerssh -L
aelknerand it just brought me to the machine20:39
ignasit does that20:39
ignasbut in another window20:39
ignasconnect to irc server localhost:777720:40
aelkneri'm trying to use XGNOME-chat20:40
aelkneris that where you mean20:40
aelkneri have my client set up to automaticaly connect me, so i disconnected first20:43
aelknerthen typed: /server localhost:777720:43
aelkner Looking up localhost:7777..20:43
aelkner Unknown host. Maybe you misspelled it?20:43
aelknerignas: is there something else i was supposed to do?20:44
ignasmaybe "localhost 7777" instead of "localhost:7777"20:45
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aelkner__am i really here?20:46
aelkner__i mean, awesome!20:46
aelkner__i'm going to start over to get my username right20:48
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aelkner__why does it keep signing me in as aelkner__20:52
ignas /nick aelkner would work too ;)20:52
ignasbecause it thinks that your nick is aelkner__ on this server i'd guess20:52
aelkner__but why?20:53
aelkner__i logged out of irssi20:53
aelkner__so that i wouldn't exist at all20:53
aelkner__then i logged in as aelkner20:53
aelkner__i saw a quick message flash that said aelkner was already used20:53
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aelkner__now /nick isn't doing anything20:55
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aelkner__that's franky20:55
aelkner__he's sitting here with me and want s to solve the same problem20:56
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aelkner__ignas: for some reason /nick does nothing20:58
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*** ignas_hmm is now known as ignas20:59
aelkner__also, as there is no aelkner there in the first place, why is it reassigning me to aelkner__21:00
ignaslook at the FreeNode tab21:02
ignasand see what's written in there21:02
mgedminthere's an aelkner on freenode21:02
mgedmin( : Alan Elkner21:03
aelkner__ Found your IP: []21:04
aelkner__ Unknown MODE flag21:04
aelkner__aelkner :Nickname is already in use21:04
Lumieremgedmin: got it21:04
Lumiereaelkner__: you're logged in at sla21:04
Lumiere12:48:51 -!- aelkner []21:04
Lumiere12:48:51 -!-  ircname  : Alan Elkner21:04
Lumiere12:48:51 -!-  server   : []21:04
Lumiere12:48:51 -!-           : is identified to services21:04
Lumiere12:48:51 -!- End of WHOIS21:04
aelkner__but i got out of irssi21:05
Lumierenot entirely21:05
Lumiereit would seem21:05
Lumiereuse recover/release21:05
Lumiere /ns help recover21:05
Lumiere /ns help release21:05
aelkner__ /ns help recove21:06
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aelkner__RECOVER aelkner21:07
Lumiere /msg nickserv recover aelkner works too21:08
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fstpierre3Lumiere how do i register21:10
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Lumierefstpierre3: /msg nickserv help register21:12
aelkner_Lumiere: I have my client configured to automatically connect to FreeNode (you showed me this last summer)21:14
aelkner_problem is that it fails to connect21:15
aelkner_so when i then /server localhost 77721:15
aelkner_it says that aelkner is already in use21:15
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aelkner_fstpierre__: ping21:27
aelkner_fstpierre__: ping21:29
aelkner_fstpierre__: ping21:30
aelkner_it worked!21:30
fstpierre__aelkner_: ping21:32
aelkner_fstpierre__: ping21:33
Lumiereuh it didn't fail to connect if you show as in use21:36
Lumiereit may have connected then started to ping time out21:36
aelkner_due to the blockage21:37
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*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 14:30 UTC (16:30 EET, 9:30 EST) | Use for pasting | Write more unit and functional tests! Yes, you!"22:37
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