IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2008-01-28

ignasccarey: are you there?00:13
ccareyyes i'm here00:13
ignashi ;)00:14
ignasdo you have any specific idea about what jelkner wants you to do?00:14
ignasbecause I am not sure I understand his goals for the conference sprint00:14
ccareyno i don't understand the specifics, but i think i get the general idea00:15
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ignasaelkner: maybe you know any specifics about what jelkner want's ccarey to do in the conference?00:15
aelkneri saw you email00:15
aelkneractually, he was hoping to get ccarey started right away00:16
aelknerto explain00:16
aelknercando is hosted on schooltol, yes00:16
aelknerhowever, its make file then loads schooltol00:16
aelknersvns it00:16
aelknerso its not really part of schooltool.00:16
aelknerwhereas jelkner2007 is00:16
aelkneror sla-buildout00:17
aelknerso he would like there to be a cando-builtout00:17
ignascando is actually using schooltool egg00:17
ignasas for a buildout00:17
ignasI have one working on my machine ;)00:17
aelknera cando-buildout?00:17
ignaswell, yes00:17
aelkneryou're too good :)00:17
ignasI have migrated to lxml00:18
aelknerso in other words, what jeff wants is already done00:18
ignasto make it possible00:18
ignaswell - it's not available anywhere00:18
aelknerof course00:18
aelknera small step00:18
ignasbut you know - after doing it like 20 times, it takes like 15-20 minutes to get one going ;)00:18
aelknerbut the job is 99% done00:18
ignasthere are some things to make integration easier00:18
aelkneri bet you're quick at it00:19
ignaslike fixing instances00:19
ignasto use schooltool.conf00:19
ignasmaking make-schooltool-instance work with cando properly00:19
ignasmigrate to schooltool trunk00:19
aelknerok, so maybe it's 85% done00:19
ignasnightlies that is00:19
ignasthe important question is00:20
ignasdo you like buildouts outside of packages or inside?00:20
ignasbuildbot likes them inside ;)00:20
ignasbecause that saves one checkout00:20
aelkneri don't have an opinion00:20
ignasyou only need to svn co stuff once00:20
aelkneras i'm not litterate00:20
aelkneri've carefully avoided the issue00:20
ignasi guess i'll just branch cando00:20
ignasand put the buildout inside it00:21
ignasbecause that's the way I like it00:21
aelknermy opinion is that you are going to know what's right00:21
aelknerand i would follow your suggestions00:21
aelkneras would anyone else00:21
aelknerso if ccarey could work with you00:21
aelknerhe would gain the expertise00:22
aelknerhe'd probably know more than i by the time he was done00:22
aelknereventually, yes, i should develop fluency00:22
aelkneras this is an important topic00:22
aelknerbut i just wanted to keep my brain cycles free00:22
aelknerfor focused tasks like what i'll be doing for sla00:22
aelkneri'm not the greatest multi-tasker00:23
ignasi see00:23
aelknerbut if you give me a project00:23
aelknereven a big on00:23
aelkneri have a long career history of delivering00:23
aelknerand within agreed upon target dates00:23
aelknerso that's why i tend to avoid taking on too many varied types of tasks00:24
ignasmakes sense00:24
aelknermaybe shortly befroe the sprint i'll get my mind around it00:24
aelknerso that i can contribute00:24
aelknerto the packaging work00:24
aelkneri'm also pushing heavily for the UI work that Tom also wants done00:25
ignasyou should just focus on the UI then00:25
aelknermaybe that would be best00:26
aelknerwe'll see00:26
aelknerleading up to pycon, we'll be able to plan that stuff00:26
aelknerbut we have over a month until then00:26
aelknerso could you please respond to jeff's email00:26
aelknerccing ccarey as well00:26
aelknerthat is, if you approve of the task00:27
aelknerccardy is a great kid and will be at pycon00:27
ignascan I still keep ccarey if he'll be done with the buildout stuff before pycon?00:27
aelknercertainly :)00:27
aelknerjeff's loving this00:27
aelkneryou've been so great with this kids, and we're going to be a really strong team00:28
aelknerstronger every month00:28
aelknerand keep in mind00:29
aelknerthe whole goal of all of that training last summer00:29
aelknerand all of the dollars spent00:29
aelknerwas the hope to get at least two or three kids00:29
aelknerwho will grow into schooltool pros00:29
ignasyeah, i can recall that00:30
aelknerand we were successful00:30
aelknerso if you continue to use any one of them for anything00:30
aelknerit's only helping us all00:30
aelknerfunding is between Tom and the state of Virginia00:30
lisppaste5ignas pasted "A list of schooltool packages that use buildout" at
ignasccarey: if you could checkout a few of these00:31
ignasand look at the files in the top level directory00:31
ignasto see the pattern00:31
aelknerccarey is here?00:31
ignasit would be very cool00:31
ccareyyes i'm here00:31
ccareyhi aelkner00:31
aelknerand here i was talking about you behind your back, or so i thought :)00:31
aelknergood thing i only had good things to say :)00:32
aelkneri'm so glad that you are involved again00:32
aelknerit would have been sad if we couldn't find a way00:32
aelkneri see you already did something with breadcrumbs00:33
aelknerthat was more advanced even than anything we had done in the summer00:33
aelkneri was glad to see the progress00:34
aelknerit's great that you're coming to pycon00:34
aelkneri told jeff that you would be right for the packaging work00:34
aelknerbecause of the initiative you showed with the breadcumb work00:34
ccareyspeaking of that00:35
ccareyignas, should i finish up the timetable task before the packaging work?00:35
ignashmm, the way it's more convenient to you00:36
ignaspackaging is easier00:36
ccareyi was getting along through the task and i might be ready for functional tests soon00:37
aelknerignas, thanks.  i'm done for the day.  see you at the meeting tomorrow.00:37
ccareybye aelkner00:38
aelkneraelkner has not quit cause he likes to keep the channel open even when he's away :)00:38
ignasccarey: nice to hear it00:38
* Fujitsu ponders submitting his first SchoolTool patch (having just returned from a holiday of much SchoolTool-hacking).00:41
ignasFujitsu: don't ponder ;) submit it!00:41
ignasccarey: as for cando packaging - would you like me to do some of the things, or would you like to do it yourself while being guided (for extra learn by doing)?00:42
ccareyi would prefer the latter, would we have to schedule a meeting on #schooltool?00:43
ignaswe can, just think of a time, i am up until at least "now" most of the days00:44
ignasnow is 0:44 in here00:44
FujitsuHmm... the calendar(.ics|.vfb)? traversers in are apparently also doing their stuff for normal HTTP requests, resulting in ToCalendarTraverser not actually be used, and calendar.ics not being iCal.00:45
ccareyignas: so that would mean for me i would get home from school around 00:00 your time00:45
ccareywhich isn't too good00:45
ignasi guess00:45
ignasi can stay up until 3am if you need that though, so there is a 3 hour window00:46
ccareythat would work if it's fine with you00:46
ignasok, so just think of a week day or week days you'll be working on that so i would know when to log onto irc00:47
ignasFujitsu: thinking00:47
ignasFujitsu: if you can get past all the functional tests with a raise "I AM USED APPARENTLY" in the ToCalendarTraverser00:48
ignasthen i'd assume that you are most probably right ;)00:48
ignasccarey: i have created a branch for the buildout integration work, and will set up a buildbot to track the progress00:49
Fujitsuignas: I've done a similar thing, but manually, not running the tests. Good idea.00:49
ccareyignas: ok, wednesday and friday evenings are my best options, but i can do monday and tuesday as well00:50
ignaswednesday and friday it is then00:50
ccareyand will we start this week?00:51
ignasbut i'll try to have an irc client open during the whole week while at home00:51
ignasccarey: i don't know, i will set up a buildbot today, and i can try and help you with timetabling task as well00:52
ccareyok, so i'll be on wednesday and friday this week in case00:52
ignasok, cool00:53
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ccareyignas, it's dinner time for me, thanks00:55
Fujitsuignas: Is it deliberate that it's trivial to create a booking conflict by adjusting the time/duration of an event after booking a resource to it, or would my patch to stop that be useful?00:56
ignasFujitsu: you might want to look for bugs in the bugtracker00:57
ignasthat relate to resource booking conflicts00:57
FujitsuI've had a look (I filed one of them, and it's now assigned to me, but it's for a different issue).00:57
ignasi think one of them explains why doing a non-trivial detection of such errors is hard00:57
ignasbut yes, i guess it would be usefult00:57
FujitsuAh yes, the recurrence one, right.00:58
ignasto at least warn people when we know about a conflict for sure00:58
FujitsuI was going to try to detect recurrence conflicts eventually, but have for now nastiyl disabled recurrence in my dev branch.00:58
Fujitsu(this branch is going to eventually be deployed for resource booking for my school, so needs to not have conflicts)00:59
ignasi see01:00
* ignas would like to get timetabling independent from calendaring just to make precise resource booking possible01:01
ignaslike - have bookings only for 30 minute periods or timetable periods01:01
ignasso the space would be narrow and discrete01:02
FujitsuYes, that would be nice.01:02
ignasnot many schools need to book a classroom for 179 minutes01:02
ignasstarting 23:5701:03
FujitsuThe booking calendar does somewhat facilitate the timetable period bit.01:03
ignasyes, but it does not enforce it01:03
FujitsuThough the following form could be simplified in that caase.01:03
ignascalendar is not needed for booking and timetabling01:03
ignasit's just a way of looking at the state01:03
FujitsuIt is technically, isn't it? But it probably shouldn't be.01:03
ignasit's not necessary to store the state that way01:04
FujitsuI guess not, no. (sorry, haven't looked much into the timetable bits)01:04
ignasbut it's a pie in the sky thing at the moment01:04
Fujitsuignas: All of the ftests pass in trunk with the ToCalendarTraverser trap sprung.01:08
FujitsuSo it's not being used to traverse to any kind of calendar.01:08
ignasremove it then i guess01:09
FujitsuI don't think that's the right solution... It seems wrong to rely on the REST stuff, and it still leaves URLs liike /calendar.ics not doing iCal.01:12
ignasmy thinking is getting slow at the moment01:12
ignascould you draft a spec or a functional test01:12
ignasthet would expose the usecases that do not work with the current setup01:13
ignasmy memory about these places is a bit hazy at the moment01:13
FujitsuI'm not sure why existing ftests aren't catching it, so I'll write one that does.01:16
ignasok, thanks a lot01:17
fsufitchaelkner: ayt?02:49
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th1ahi jelkner, aelkner, ignas, pcardune, Lumiere...16:29
pcarduneth1a: say, it this the meeting time?16:29
th1aYes.  6:30 AM.16:29
th1aright pcardune?16:30
pcardune9:30 pm here in bangkok...16:30
th1aAh, still in Thailand.16:30
pcarduneone more week16:30
th1aOK, so I guess the agenda today is updates and then what we mean by merging CanDo with SchoolTool.16:31
th1aFirst off, EduCon was a big success I think, and good for networking the US side of SchoolTool.16:32
th1aIf we make Chris happy he'll be directing a lot of users to SchoolTool.16:33
aelknerlooks like16:33
th1aOTOH, I was just lying in bed wondering if Zope 3.4 will ever be released and whether I need to start agitating for that (I imagine I do).16:33
ignasth1a: i think they have a release candidate already, if not - they are at least ready to do one16:34
th1aOK, I will try to prod the right people.  Remind them that having it ready for Ubuntu is important to us (and perhaps even Zope 3!).16:35
th1aOK, that's what's on my mind.16:36
ignasis the launchpad ppa bug resolved already?16:36
aelkneri missed a couple of days yesterday due to being under the weater16:36
aelknerbut i did get started on what they need at sla16:36
th1aI think it is "committed" but I'm not sure if it is deployed.16:36
th1aignas ^16:37
ignasth1a: i see16:37
th1aWe appear to have our first set of deliverables defined.16:37
aelkneryes, the Narrative Report Cards and the Student Intervention (CSAP) stuff16:38
aelknerthat and getting their students and teachers imported16:39
aelknertogether with the extended demographics16:39
aelknerso, they will be using schooltool on a regular basis by April 1516:39
aelknereven if their course stuff will wtill be handled in moodle16:40
th1aI'm happy with the goals.16:40
aelkneri know they will be glad to have the CSAP stuff automated16:40
aelkneras that is a real pain for them as it is now16:41
th1aDo aelkner and ignas need to talk more about how we're doing extended demographics.16:41
ignaswe have already talked about it I think16:41
aelkneractually, our chat friday has left me clear on what needs doing16:41
ignasbut if there are any questions - I am always available16:41
aelknerso i got nothing else16:42
aelknera short report this week16:42
th1athanks aelkner.16:42
th1aActually, what are you doing first, aelkner?16:42
ignasnot much, mostly continued doing some fixes to the buildbot/buildout infrastructure16:42
ignasadded sample data for schooltool.stapp2008spring16:43
ignasthat would generate grades and courses for 4 terms16:43
ignas(2 school years)16:43
ignaswith each section spanning 1 term16:43
ignasand teachers teaching only 1 course with multiple sections16:43
ignasso if you will want to you can just check out stapp2008spring and try running it + generating sample data16:44
th1aIt should be easier for me to make some screenshots now.16:44
ignasI am not too happy with the grade distribution at the moment though ;) there are as many "1" as "10"'s16:44
ignasbut it's good enough at the moment16:44
th1aNeed that bell curve.16:44
aelknerignas: are you referring to my sample data?16:45
ignasno, i am referring to my sample data16:45
aelkneryou could take a look at what i did16:45
aelkneri made the grades go between 40 and 10016:45
aelknerto make it look as much real-world as possible16:45
ignasreal world woud have different persons have different averages though16:46
ignasand at the moment it's all around the same number16:46
aelkneri have different averages for everyone16:46
aelknerit's random16:46
ignasdifferent as in - some people have 99%16:47
ignasand some have 52%16:47
ignasI'll look at it16:47
th1awhat else, ignas?16:48
ignasi think that's everything i did this week16:48
aelkneri didn't want to interrupt ignas16:48
aelknerbut tom asked what i planned doing first16:48
aelknerbasically, i'll get the demographics data in16:48
aelknerthen, the Narrative Report Cards16:49
aelknerthen CSAP16:49
th1aMakes sense.16:49
th1aignas: What's coming up for you?16:51
ignaswell - as I have the sample data ready I'll be going through schooltool16:52
ignasand looking for places to improve16:52
ignaslike section lists16:52
ignascalendar overlays16:52
ignaslinks to the journal16:52
ignasmostly polishing to make 2008spring release usable16:52
ignasI would be glad if you would look at it too16:53
th1aAh.  OK.16:53
th1aYes, I will.16:53
ignasand give some criticism16:53
ignasbecause the thing you will be seeing is what our users will be looking at16:53
th1aIt is a lot easier to generate that criticism if I know you're going to be working on fixing those kind of problems.16:53
ignasi'll work on cando schooltool integration as well apparently16:54
ignasat least as a consultant ;)16:54
th1aI think we're to that point in the conversation.16:54
th1ajelkner: ayt?16:55
th1aSo anyway, are we all getting to the same page about what "integration" means?16:56
* pcardune raises his eyebrows16:57
th1aNot merging CanDo into the SchoolTool monolith because we're disassembling the SchoolTool monolith.16:57
ignasmy plans are:16:57
ignasrefactor cando to act as schooltool.stapp2008spring16:57
ignasand lyceum16:57
ignasadd "plugins" related scripts to schooltool.paste16:58
ignasremove cando.paste and make cando use schooltool for instance-making16:58
ignaslaunch cando test and cando release buildbots16:58
ignasthat use buildout to do these tasks16:58
ignasmaybe even make it possible to refactor cando packages out of cando to be used separately16:59
ignasbut that depends on the plans of cando project16:59
th1aCan you do the above pretty quickly at this point?17:00
ignasquite quickly i think, but i will be guiding ccarey rather than doing it myself17:00
ignasso that cando would have one person who knows the stuff17:00
ignasinstead of "magic happens" and you get buildout17:01
th1aOK.  Good.17:01
ignasthe parts i am worried about are the - merge projects and get cando code reviewed parts that it seems jelkner is expecting17:01
ignasseems to me17:01
aelkneryeah, he was hoping to have you review the whole cando code base17:02
* pcardune ducks17:02
aelknerfor things like test coverage17:02
ignasi mean - one of the points of splitting schooltool into parts was to make it less code to review and manage for me ;)17:03
aelknerand PEP 8 compliance17:03
aelknerthat sounds fair17:03
ignaslike - only aelkner needs schooltool.gradebook , so if it is a separate package - it's one thing i don't have to think that much about17:03
th1aI think the main thing is that they need to learn what ignas expects and try to clean up to those standards BEFORE ignas looks at it.17:03
aelknergood point17:03
ignasbecause apparently all the details and features just don't fit into my head, and i am not sure I can perform a quality review17:04
th1a(also, I'm willing to accept the idea that this is just a bad idea)17:04
ignaswithout knowing what cando does up to every single feature17:04
aelknerthat wouldn't be expected17:04
aelkneri think jelkner just wants your expertise to guide the process of getting cando17:05
ignasi can say PEP8 here, PEP8 here, but making meaningful suggestions is difficult unless I know future plans, requirements and etc.17:05
aelknerto comply with your coding standards17:05
aelknerreally, it's the cando team's responsibility to worry about those things17:06
th1aThis might not be realistic.17:06
aelknerjelkner was trying to get something cheep :)17:06
ignasi am afraid it won't comply :/ schooltool does not :/ it's a never ending battle ... I can try to imbue the same way of thinking the same criteria17:06
aelkneri think if you guide ccarey17:07
aelknerto review the code base himself17:07
th1aWell, I'd also say that if you could really just bring people in to do code reviews and easily fix things afterward, software would be a lot more reliable in general.17:07
ignasI can try17:07
ignasbut it's up to them to keep the standards at some level17:07
ignasI think what Robert Collins suggested when talking about such codebases was:17:08
ignasMake sure that every commit you make is better than the average quality of the codebase.17:08
ignasin 3 years - the overall quality will be a lot better ;)17:08
ignasand i am afraid that it's the only way to do it - every time before commiting think whether the part that you are adding is better than the rest of the stuff17:09
ignasand never say - i17:09
ignasi'll improve it later17:09
aelknercando's only issues are PEP 8 and test coverage17:09
th1aThere seem to be PEP 8 checking scripts.17:10
pcarduneI don't think PEP 8 is that big a deal, but test coverage yes... is  a much bigger issue17:10
ignasaelkner: this is the part where I would disagree ;)17:10
th1aignas: Right.  Code review can also say the design is flawed.17:10
ignaswhich is why i think that pulling cando up is very difficult - if aelkner thinks it's allright - he can't fix it, you can only fix things that you think are broken ;)17:11
ignasth1a: yes, but to say that i must actually understand what was being done17:11
jelknersorry, i'm back17:11
ignasth1a: which is a lot of work, and i am lazy ;)17:11
th1aIt is a lot of work.17:11
aelknerjelkner: were your ears burning?17:12
jelknerwe have money to pay young coders to fix things17:12
jelknerbut they need adult supervision ;-)17:12
aelknerignas shouldn't have to learn the inner workings of cando17:12
aelknerhe has enough on his mind17:13
ignaspcardune: are there design decisions in cando that you would do differently in retrospect?17:13
jelknerthat means aelkner would have to do it17:13
jelknerwe need to:17:13
jelkner1. identify clearly what needs to be fixed17:14
* aelkner has his hands full with sla :)17:14
jelkner2. communicate that to chris carey who is willing to work on it17:14
jelkner3. look over what he does and give him regular feedback so he can do it well17:14
th1ajelkner: The more we discuss this the less trivial the whole process sounds.17:14
jelknerth1a: ok, but it is *important*17:15
jelknerso what do you suggest?17:15
th1aOK, why is it important?17:15
aelknermay i suggest that cando is fine save for test coverage17:15
jelknerbecause if we don't handle it effectively now, then we will get bit in the ass when it comes time to deploy it later17:16
th1aSo you just need to teach chris to check for test coverage and write tests.17:16
ignasaelkner: tests and pep8 are the things that we can fix and should fix, i agree with that17:16
aelknerccarey could learn to be that expert for cando17:17
ignasaelkner: but the difference between cando and schooltool codebases is a bit bigger than that, even though schooltool codebase needs a lot of fixing as well17:17
aelknerit's a focused taskl17:17
aelknerthat he could take weeks to do17:17
th1aThey both can be at least partly checked by automated tools.17:17
aelknerignas: what bigger differences?17:18
ignasaelkner: from what i have seen in cando, there are some things that could be done better, you can write the same things in more than one way most of the time17:19
ignasand in cando - there are places that were written without knowing some parts of Zope3 or python17:19
ignasand yes I understand that it works17:19
ignasbut to me it's an inherent part of "codebase quality"17:19
aelkneri think in large projects, there has to be acceptance from time to time of code that could "be done better" as long as it is not done wrong17:19
jelknerignas: you see "code smells" in cando and you are suggesting they be refactored, yes?17:20
aelknerfor instance?17:20
jelknerwould it take too much of your time to communicate to to chris carey what they are?17:20
ignasbut i think it's difficult to do unless people who are fixing them see it too17:20
ignasit's just different perspectives17:21
ignasand i have come to think17:21
jelkneri understand the constraints we are all under in terms of time, workload, etc.17:21
ignasthat cando should not be changed17:21
ignasi mean - if most of cando developers think that it's fine17:21
ignaswhy make them do it the way *I* like17:21
ignasso that's one of the reasons why I moved schooltool.gradebook from schooltool trunk17:22
jelknerbecause "you the man!"17:22
jelknerwe need to have a review process that works17:22
jelknerwe can't have too many different folks doing too many different approaches17:22
jelknerthat would be bad17:22
jelknerparticularly when working with young developers who need guidance17:23
th1aWell, I'm afraid this is how software development works in the real world.17:23
th1aAlthough I've never been in the real world.17:23
ignasyes, but you have to find the approach you like yourselves, because most of the things i have learned were learned by arguing with mgedmin for hours to decide which implementation of a feature would be the most elegant one17:23
jelkneri'm *very* comfortable with the idea that -we are a small  group of developers and ignas is the ultimate decision maker on code questions17:24
ignasand all that i have learned was - my code sucks, i must work hard to improve ;)17:24
ignasjelkner: to make decisions I must know cando better than you do17:24
ignaswhich I just don't think is realistic17:24
ignasthe people who have the most information should make decisions17:24
ignaseven if they will not make the perfect one17:24
ignasthey will learn17:24
jelknerthat's fine too17:24
aelknerif schooltool is to be this apt-get installable thing, people all around the world could be developing their own plugins17:24
jelknerthat would be your decision to delegate17:25
aelknerthere's no way for anyone to review it all17:25
jelknerbut then you would, i assume, let their code into schooltool17:25
jelknerthat's what i want17:25
jelknerto be part of schooltool17:25
ignasnope ;)17:25
aelknerjelkner: you missed ignas' point earlier17:25
ignasno, really, i am trying to make schooltool smaller not bigger17:25
aelknerof tearing down the code monolith17:25
ignasto keep it maintainable17:26
ignasto keep separate parts17:26
jelkneri understand that17:26
th1ajelkner: Yes, ignas is right that we've been working on changing what it would mean to be "part of schooltool."17:26
ignasthat anyone can work on, no matter how much I disaggree with their definition of quality17:26
jelknerwhat i mean by "part of schooltool"17:26
jelkneris shared responsibility for the code17:26
jelknerwhatever packaging and distribution solution you come up with17:26
jelkneri want the concerns of cando to part of the calculus when thinking about schooltool17:27
th1ajelkner: I think that could be a gradual process.17:27
jelknernot a "that's there problem"17:27
jelknerth1a: we have *never* been able to do a package of cando17:28
ignasif our egg -> deb magic works that should be trivial17:28
ignasbut it's more "project goals thing" than code thing17:28
th1ajelkner: We're in really good shape as far as packaging.17:29
jelknerthen what will prevent cando from being released along with schooltool?17:29
ignaswhat do you mean by "along"?17:29
jelknerjust like gradebook, sla build-out, etc.?17:29
ignasnothing I think, there are some small tasks to be performed17:30
jelkneras one of the components that are available with schooltool17:30
jelknercan chris carey do those tasks?17:30
ignasyes, that's the plan17:30
jelknerwhat's the problem then?17:30
th1aThe one big code review appears to be the problem.17:31
ignasunderstanding of responsibilities and expectations from both sides of the project? ;)17:31
jelkneri'm trying real hard to tear down the wall17:31
th1aIt is not an artificial wall.17:31
jelknerth1a: explain17:32
th1aWe just can't expect ignas to learn CanDo in the next six months.17:32
jelknerunderstood and reasonable17:32
jelknerdoes he trust anyone else enough to do the first round of review for him?17:33
ignasjelkner: there aren't any choices except aelkner17:33
th1aIt still depends on what we're talking about.17:33
ignasyou see - schooltool project is "Tom, Ignas and Alan"17:33
th1aIf we specifically say:17:33
th1a1) clean up PEP 8 implementation;17:33
th1a2) improve test coverage.17:34
th1aThose are pretty mechanical.17:34
th1aIt is more a matter of attention to detail than needing a lot of advice.17:34
jelkneraelkner recommended ccarey to me because he thinks ccarey is strong there17:34
th1ajelkner, you're a programming teacher.  You should be able to do those things.17:35
th1aI mean, you're teaching test-driven development, right?17:35
jelknerth1a: i'm not even a programmer17:35
jelknerjust a teacher :-(17:35
aelknerthose you can do...17:36
th1aPEP 8 is just grammar.17:36
th1aGet out your red pen!17:36
jelkneri'm very familiar with pep 817:36
jelknerchris can do that by just being asked to do it17:36
aelknerand test coverage is something a user can get their hands around17:36
jelknerthat's not a problem17:36
jelknertest coverage is more difficult17:37
jelknerbut chris worked with aelkner this summer learning how to do that17:37
aelknerso he could master the app from a user's perspective (with jelkner's help)17:38
aelknerand then make sure the test coverage is there17:38
th1aOK... I have to get ready to fly back to Providence.17:38
th1aYou guys can keep chatting.17:38
th1aHave a good week!17:38
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:38
jelknertell jennifer it was great meeting her17:38
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jelkneraelkner: sure, wbrady can do that better than me17:39
jelknerso that isn't a problem either17:39
aelknersounds like a plan17:39
jelknerso, the last practice question is:17:39
jelknerdo i tell chris to contact ignas or aelkner for instructions17:40
aelknerhow about netiher?  have him contact will17:40
aelknerlearn the app17:40
aelkneradn get writing tests17:41
ignasjelkner: i don17:41
jelknerbad answer17:41
ignasdon't know, i have talked to ccarey yesterday17:41
ignasand we are planning meeting online wednesday and friday17:41
ignasto talk about his current schooltool task17:41
ignasand about cando buildout integration17:41
jelknerproblem solved17:42
jelknerignas: you still here?17:57
ignasyes, kind of ;)17:57
jelkneri just had a good conversation on the phone with aelkner17:58
jelknerthis is really an issue for th1a and i to work out, but here is the bottom line:17:58
jelknerwhen schooltool goes into ubuntu as a core package17:58
jelkneri want cando to go with it17:59
jelkneri think stating the goal that way helps provide a bit of clarity17:59
jelknerno code is perfect17:59
jelknerand all code can improve17:59
jelknerbut do we feel it is ready enough to "stand by it" in that context17:59
jelknerthat would be a good test18:00
jelknerhowever you setup the packaging system is fine with me18:00
jelkneri just want cando to be one of the packages18:00
jelknerdoes that make sense?18:00
jelknertake your time18:03
ignasi think it makes sense, at least it fits with what I was planning to do with cando18:07
jelkneri'll follow up with tom tomorrow18:07
ignasglad to help18:08
* jelkner prepares to sign off so he can do his grading...18:08
ignasok, bye18:08
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fsufitchaelkner: hi19:28
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