IRC log of #schooltool for Sunday, 2007-12-09

ignasyes, yes i know, now imagine doing that 20 times in one day to understand how i felt packaging everything00:00
fsufitchInstalled /home/fsufitch/cando-trunk/eggs/
fsufitchSearching for zope.mimetype>=1.1dev-r7246200:01
fsufitchNo local packages or download links found for zope.mimetype>=1.1dev-r7246200:01
fsufitcherror: Could not find suitable distribution for Requirement.parse('zope.mimetype>=1.1dev-r72462')00:01
fsufitchmake: *** [build] Error 100:01
ignascan you lisppaste5 the whole log00:02
ignasfor me to see00:02
ignasfound the bug00:08
ignasapparently no one has released a new schooltool package after i have fixed the dependencies00:08
fsufitchthat's IT?00:09
ignaswe can try one more thing though00:09
ignasopen setup.py00:09
ignasand replace '' with ''00:09
ignasand try make run again00:09
fsufitchInstalled /home/fsufitch/cando-trunk/eggs/zc.table-0.6-py2.4.egg00:13
fsufitcherror: Installed distribution zc.resourcelibrary 0.6.1 conflicts with requirement zc.resourcelibrary>=0.7dev-r7250600:13
fsufitchmake: *** [build] Error 100:13
fsufitchthis seems a bit simpler00:13
ignasno, not really :/00:13
ignasschooltool package that was released has wrong dependencies set up00:13
ignasnot wrong00:13
ignasbut unstable00:13
ignasso you are suffering from the unstability of the eggs world00:14
ignasbut without someone pushing the big red button00:14
ignasand tagging+releasing the new schooltool2007 alpha00:14
ignasfixing everything is a bit difficult00:14
ignasbecause old schooltool release relies on the unstable stuff, and is not compatible with the sable stuff00:15
ignaswhich was not so bad while unstable eggs worked00:15
ignasi can try and release an emergency schooltool egg for now to get you working, but that is still a bad idea, as you might be stuck when someone will release the real thing00:17
ignasso - how badly do you need to work on cando00:17
fsufitchi don't need to work on it that badly00:21
fsufitchand anyway, i could always send a diff of what i've done to aelkner or someone else00:22
ignasi mean - i can package it and upload it to, and you will have to replace the urls with
ignasand get it working on that machine00:24
fsufitchi'd rather i get it to work in a *proper* way00:25
ignasi'll push for that happening during our monday meeting00:26
ignasor even earlier00:26
ignasi'll test cando for working with the updated egg00:26
ignasand then write an email to jinty00:26
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ignasomg, apparently stable cando was getting broken because i had the experimental schooltool release installed on my computer01:03
ignasi spent like 30 minutes trying to find out why are setuptools trying to install some old version of zope.html01:04
ignaswhat is not so nice is that i don't know how to build a proper schooltool release01:12
fsufitch*gasp* ignas doesn't know something schooltool related01:13
ignasyep, i don't do anything related to schooltool releases01:15
fsufitchwho does?01:15
ignasi hate setuptools01:26
fsufitchoh btw01:26
fsufitchmy school has a research lab required to do in senior year01:26
fsufitchand we're supposed to start thinking up of projects01:27
fsufitchand one of my ideas was to do a study on which ubuntu interface would be the most friendly to windows-users switching to ubuntu01:27
ignas"ubuntu interface" ?01:27
ignasas in xubuntu kubuntu ubuntu ?01:27
fsufitchno, those are subdistros01:28
fsufitchalthough i could compare DEs01:28
fsufitchi mean like the whole look+feel01:28
fsufitchlike, is the default GNOME really the best/the most intuitive?01:28
fsufitchi mean, it isn't for me01:28
fsufitchwhich is why i'm using kde with a really eccentric setup01:28
fsufitchi don't even have a proper taskbar01:29
fsufitchit's hidden away in a corner01:29
fsufitchwaiting for me to press the expand button01:29
fsufitchbut i never do01:29
fsufitchwell, i could compare the default setups of GNOME, KDE and XFCE01:30
fsufitchalthough all of them SUCK in my opinion01:30
fsufitchthe kde one most01:30
fsufitchrly space inefficient01:30
fsufitchand too windows-ish XD01:30
fsufitchbut what i wanted to ask is01:30
fsufitchdo you think this project is a good idea?01:30
ignaswell - designing an intuitive interface and performing a lot of user tests would be kind of interesting01:31
ignasif you can find enough users01:31
ignaswith simmilar level of computer literacy01:31
ignasand if you are capable of customizing the UI to cover a lot of ground01:32
ignasat least you would get to know how user testing is done01:32
fsufitchi doubt i can do too many users while keeping the testing environment sane01:32
fsufitchand within my research grant limits01:32
fsufitchbecause i was thinking to get a bunch of ppl simple computers (laptops preferably) with linux on them01:33
fsufitchand letting them use for a month or so01:33
fsufitchwith checkups on progress01:33
fsufitchthen a new set of people01:33
fsufitchwith improved setups01:33
ignasan interesting approach, though i would not bet on it to be suitable for designing a universal user friendly UI01:34
ignasfrom the scientific point of view01:34
ignaseverything depends on the goals of the project01:35
fsufitchi could always fall back on my other project idea of researching fuzzy logic in machine learning01:36
ignasnot sure what you said makes too much sense01:37
ignasi mean fuzzy logic is a very very broad thing01:37
ignasso you'd have to concentrate on something like hmm - reinforcement learning01:37
ignasor expert system kind of things01:37
ignasbut the former is heavy on maths and the later is old ;)01:38
ignasfuzzy logic most of the time means that "your machine can perform in different ways with the same input"01:38
ignaswell it can mean that the output is defined to some degree of certainty as well01:39
ignasin the first case - a lot of algorithms can be used to train such "machines"01:39
ignasreinforcement learning being one i have heard/read about most01:39
ignasin the second case - i'd find it difficult to connect the learning part with the fuzzy part ;)01:40
ignas(btw even though reinforcement learning is heavy on maths the concept itself is awesome)01:40
ignasIMHO at least01:40
ignasas for the first study subject - the "best/most intuitive" is a very subjective measurment, so you would have to define it in some way to be able to measure it01:42
ignasas objectively as possible01:42
fsufitchi did a small research project on fuzzy logic in 10th grade01:42
fsufitchand it's defined as the opposite of binary logic01:43
fsufitch1 DOES equal 201:43
fsufitch1 equals 3 as well01:43
fsufitchbut to a lesser degree than 1 ==201:43
fsufitchbut 1==2 is undefined01:43
fsufitchand so is 1==301:43
fsufitchit's all relative01:43
ignaswell - in AI fuzzy logic is used to define these other things01:44
ignaswhen it is related to Expert systems01:44
ignasyou have this huge program that can tell you what the weather is going to be tomorrow01:44
ignasbut instead of saying "rain = True"01:45
ignasit says "rain = 90% probability"01:45
ignasthe other application is (at least in reinforcement learning)01:45
fsufitchwhich SO many people love doing01:45
fsufitch"i'm probably going to finish the project tomorrow"01:45
ignasyou are trying to control a small car on a track01:45
ignasyou have inputs like velocity, distance to the next turn etc01:46
ignasbut your car instead of always turning right and accelerating01:46
ignashas some chance to just accelerate01:46
ignasfor example01:46
ignasand what your learning algorithm is "modifying"01:46
ignasis the probabilities that the car will do something in some situation01:46
ignasso after some time your car is doing the right thing 99% of the time01:47
ignasand experimenting the 1% of the time01:47
ignasjust to see if there is a better way01:47
fsufitchyeah, that's what i was thinking01:47
fsufitchmy 10th grade project touched on that01:47
ignasit's called "reinforcement learning"01:47
fsufitchdid you know that some air conditioning systems use that stuff?01:47
fsufitchso that you don't go from hot->cold->hot->cold...01:48
fsufitchso then i missed other types of learning01:48
ignasthe learning algorithm01:48
ignasexpert systems by the way can be set up manually, your teapot that turns off automatically is a "fuzzy expert system" ;)01:49
ignaswith 1 input - the temperature01:49
ignasand 1 output "turning off"01:49
* fsufitch bookmarks that02:07
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