IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-12-10

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ignasjinty: hi15:06
jintyignas: hi, just responded to your mail15:06
ignasjinty: yes, that's what i want15:08
jintyok, cool, then I'll go find some lunch and look at it afterwards15:09
* jinty wants his egg release UI finished so that ignas can do this stuff more easily...15:10
* jinty -> lunch15:10
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th1a__Not sure what just happened.16:32
th1a__Now that all three of me are here.16:33
th1a__Hi jelkner, aelkner, ignas, Lumiere.16:34
jelknergood morning16:34
th1a__How's the gradebook working, jelkner?16:34
jelknerit kicks butt!16:34
jelknermy needs are simple, and it meets all of them16:35
aelknerwell except for the final grade view which i'm stil working on16:35
jelkneralthough i won't know until 3rd week in january if it can generate final grades16:35
aelknerwhy then?16:36
th1a__That's the catch.16:36
jelkneraelkner: that's when 2nd quarter ends16:36
aelknerbut you should know before then16:36
aelknerif i've delivered the final grade view16:37
aelknerthen you can always test it out16:37
jelknerfine, but i won't generate any real final grades until then16:37
aelknerright, nithing will be real16:37
aelknerbut "what if" is possible16:37
th1a__If the semester ended today...16:38
th1a__Any other news jelkner?16:39
th1a__Are we making any intern progress?16:39
th1a__It seems like communication is running a little better.16:39
jelknershouldn't ignas be addressing that?16:39
th1a__He's not shy.16:39
jelkneri've told them what you told me to tell them: talk to ignas16:39
ignasthey do talk to me already16:40
jelknerit looks like they've been following through16:40
jelknerbut i haven't been able to monitor that16:40
th1a__I guess I forget you don't actually see most of those kids.16:40
ignasjust that some of them are having technical problems with cando (not sure why they need cando though)16:40
th1a__They probably don't.16:40
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jelknerat this point they don't16:40
ignasanyway - it's a good opportunity to get cando working properly again16:41
aelknerwell filip wanted to help with a conso bug16:41
jelknerso the best thing would be to encourage them not to get hung up in technical issues that are not relevant16:41
aelknerand that's where he found that he couldn't get it to work16:41
ignasthat's what i am talking about16:41
th1a__Oh, so I've got 5000 euro budgeted for interns in 2008.16:41
th1a__Which hopefully will amount to $7500.16:41
jelknerif things with the dollar keep going the way they are, maybe even more16:42
th1a__If the dollar suddenly goes back up dramatically we're screwed.16:42
jelkneri don't think that is likely16:42
aelkneri would trnasfer euros to dollars if possible16:42
th1a__Nor I.16:42
th1a__Either way, I'm not sure how I would have accounted for it.16:42
th1a__Anything else jelkner?16:43
jelknerit is too early for pycon discussion?16:43
th1a__PyCon goals?16:43
jelknergoals and planning16:44
ignasjelkner, th1a__: maybe you could send me a list of all the interns that are supposed to be working on something16:44
jelknerregistration hasn't opened yet16:44
ignasso i could track them16:44
jelknerignas: there are only 416:44
ignasth1a__: it seems that we will be doing a release during pycon (probably)16:44
ignasjelkner: this is the kind of information i need ;)16:44
th1a__That makes sense.16:45
ignasjelkner: how many, who are they16:45
jelknerfilip, andrew, chris carey, and william johnston16:45
jelknerhave all of them been in communication with you?16:45
jelknermy feeling is: begin at the top16:46
ignasi'll have to comb through my email16:46
jelknerwe may be able to pick up a few more, but let's begin with those with the most skill and initiative16:46
ignasto see who has a task, and who asked for one16:46
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jelkneri can email anyone you are not sure about16:47
jelknerbut andrew and filip have been regulars, yes?16:47
jelknerand i see william johnston every day16:47
ignasfilip - definitely yes - spent 2-3 hours this weekend trying to get cando working for him16:47
jelknerhe is working on the seating chart, so you wouldn't have heard from him16:48
jelknerbut i know he is working16:48
jelknerwhat about andrew?16:48
ignaslooking at it at the moment16:48
jelkneri have the least contact with him16:48
th1a__btw, these guys should invoice me before the end of the year.16:48
jelknerbut he was in vilnius with you guys16:48
th1a__I guess I need to tell them that.16:48
ignashmm last time i have heard directly from andrew was september 2716:49
jelknerth1a__: please16:49
jelknerthe end of the year approaches rapidly...16:49
th1a__ignas: I don't think Andrew has done anything lately.16:49
jelknerth1a__: why?16:50
th1a__Other things going on in his life.16:50
jelkneri suggest we get filip working on schooltool16:50
jelknerand punt cando work for now16:50
aelknerwould he have trunk commit access?16:50
jelknerthat will make setup easier for him16:51
jelknerand makes more sense anyway16:51
ignaswhat's william johnston's email?16:51
jelknersince we don't have cando funds at the moment16:51
th1a__OK... shall we move on?16:53
jelkneri'm ready16:53
th1a__OK.  ignas?16:54
ignasnothing much done, mostly spent the time looking for feasible approaches to schooltool's time tracking problems16:54
ignasdid some bugfixes for lyceum16:54
ignasand added lesson descriptions to the lyceum journal16:55
th1a__I think you accomplished a lot with the time tracking issue.16:55
ignasi hope so ;) we'll see when i'll start implementing it16:56
aelknerI'd be interested in seeing some more breakdown of keyframes in your science fiction16:56
aelknerthat one paragraph seemed a bit blackboxed16:56
aelknercould you add some ideas on how you think you would implement them?16:56
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ignasit is, i am still thinking about how to implement keyframes in relation to schooltool relationships16:57
ignashaving an ISectionKeyframe is quite easy16:57
ignasit will have "added" list and "removed" list16:57
ignaswith students in them16:57
ignaswhat troubles me is implementing it in a backwards compatible manner16:57
ignasbut yes, i will be extending the text file as i go16:58
aelknerit seemed like what you did is still backwards compatible16:58
ignasfrom the ISection side - yes16:58
aelknersection.members is all the old code uses, right?16:58
ignasbut not from getRelationshipLinks(section)16:59
ignasand there are a lot of places that do that16:59
aelknercould the relationship links also take time into account?16:59
aelknernot that i have a vision for how that would be17:00
aelknerjust a thought17:00
th1a__That'll have to happen one way or another.17:00
aelknersince section memebers is a relationships thing anyway...17:01
ignasi'm looking at it, and thinking a lot about it17:01
aelknercould you keep me posted as your README.txt file grows?17:02
ignasi could, but it's highly volatile and subject to change17:02
aelkneri would only want to check it out every couple of days17:03
aelknerto keep from getting confused by changes17:03
ignasi'll try17:03
aelkneryou can just email it like you did last time17:03
ignasif i will have anything readable i'll keep it posted17:04
th1a__OK, aelkner, what's up wit choo?17:04
aelknerwell, last week's cando meeting #1 was a success17:04
aelknerpartly jelkner needed to come up to speed on using it17:05
aelknerto become more a power user like wlesh's users17:05
jelkner(#2, bro)17:05
aelkner#2 was cancelled, i'll get to that17:05
aelknerjelkner had some valid complaints17:05
aelknerparticularly about the cando gradebook17:06
aelknerit has always been a way too slow loader17:06
aelknerwhich is becuase whoever wrote it (stephan?) used recursive page templates17:06
aelknerwhich is not a good idea in my opinion17:07
aelkneras each load of a page template is very expensive17:07
th1a__But elegant!17:07
aelknerso i proposed changing the cando gradebook to work more like schooltool's gadebook17:07
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th1aActually, I'd imagine it was pcardune.17:07
aelknerin that it could keep track of the user's current competency group17:07
ignasjelkner: could you write an email to william, because i am not sure he knows he should contact me about the tasks17:08
jelknerignas: william is working on the seating chart17:08
jelkneri see him everyday, so he is not a problem17:08
ignasjelkner: oh17:08
aelknerand present pulldowns to swiitch between them as in switching worksheets17:08
aelknerthen we could get rid of the whole "load all evaluations" page that only serves to confuse the user (at least jelkner was)17:09
aelkneranyway, all in the meeting seemed to agree with my proposal17:09
aelknerso we just need a blueprint drawn up to that effect17:09
th1aSo this would bring the CanDo and SchoolTool gradebooks closer together?17:09
aelknerwouldn't it be nice if they could share code?17:10
aelkneras it is, even if i make those changes17:10
aelknerit would still be two different code segments17:10
ignasdon't forget that cando will be using schooltool200717:11
ignasor are you going to start using nightlies again?17:11
aelkneryeah, but i wouldn't be able to build cando's gradebook on top of schooltool's17:11
aelknercando's requirements are more complex17:11
aelknerif schooltool's gradebook would want to support17:12
ignasi know, i am just warning that ability to share code among cando and schooltool is quite limmited, as you won't see changes to gradebook in cando17:12
aelkneran arbitrirly complex set of requirements as cando does17:12
aelkneryou're talking relase issues, right?17:13
ignasas in "changes to schooltool gradebook you are making now, will not be accessible from cando"17:13
ignasfor quite a while i assume (at least until cando starts it's new development cycle and switches to schooltool trunk)17:13
aelknercando already uses schooltool's trunk17:13
aelknerdoesn't it?17:14
aelknerchecking now17:14
ignasnope, it does not17:14
ignasit uses an ancient nightly egg iirc17:14
aelkneryou're right17:14
aelknerschooltool == 2006.999-2007-alpha1-svn-r723117:15
ignasnow schooltool trunk is 732917:15
ignasi'd suggest tying to a release version17:15
ignasto have it stable17:15
aelknerhow often would our schooltool changes get into the release version?17:16
ignasevery 6 months17:16
aelknerso that definitely decouples cando from schooltool's latest code17:16
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th1aNext year the top priority overall is getting releases out on the Ubuntu cycle.17:16
aelkneris that what we want17:16
ignasaelkner: the alternative is cando breaking a lot17:17
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ignasat least - possibly breaking a lot17:17
aelknerif there was only a way to be able to react to17:17
aelknerfor example17:17
aelknerwelsh nees a new feature in cando17:18
aelknerand the work is being done already in schooltool17:18
aelknerso when the schooltool work is done17:18
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aelknerhaving a way to get it into cando17:18
aelknerwithout waiting for the four months to be up17:18
ignasthe downside is that - someone has to get schooltool into a releasable state for such a push17:18
ignaswhich means - finishing all WIP things17:18
ignasall of them, no matter who is doing them17:18
ignaswriting all the evolution scripts too17:19
th1aOverall, making major changes to the deployed version of CanDo during the year is a recipe for disaster.17:19
th1aIn my opinion.17:19
th1aOr a recipe for wasting a lot of time.17:19
aelknerwell let's take the gradebook changes i referred to before17:20
aelknerit's not a good example of schooltool dependency, but17:20
aelknerit could be something that would be needed sooner than later17:20
aelknerif enough users complained17:20
aelknerand it was felt that the change would be important for the project's perception17:21
aelkneras we continue to add more and more users17:21
ignasaelkner: if you will be the person who handles all the deployment issues - just stick with nightlies17:21
th1aWell, as the application becomes more mature, we also need to have fewer and fewer problems that are that severe.17:22
ignasor just push nightlies everytime you need it17:22
aelknerpuch nightlies?17:22
ignasas in - you see a schooltool state17:22
ignasthat *you* consider a stable enough17:22
ignasfor cando to use17:22
ignasyou just set it to be depended upon in cando/setup.py17:23
ignasand tell everyone to upgrade17:23
ignasif anything breaks - you fix it17:23
aelknerso i can just change cando's anytime i want to use a newer schooltool nightly17:23
ignasso you will be tracking trunk, but in a more controled manner17:23
aelknerthat sounds quite managable17:24
th1aThis is not really work I want to pay for.17:24
aelknerit's not going to happen more than once or twice a semester17:24
ignasbut read the warning about trunk in
aelknerif even that17:24
ignasthe one about kittens ;)17:24
aelknerread it just now17:25
th1aBut in general, I want you to be there to put out fires for CanDo.  Not develop new features.17:25
ignaswell - there are weekends ;)17:26
jelknerwe need to push for more funding for cando17:26
aelknercando's gradebook problems could be considered a fire of sorts17:26
jelknerand it will actually be harder to get it if we do to many things for free17:26
aelknerbut yes, we won't be addicted to bleeding-edge schooltool17:26
th1aLast question.17:27
th1aAre we on track to have jelkner ready by Christmas?17:27
aelkneri believe jelkner only needs the final grades view i'm working on17:28
aelknerso if that's the case, then yes17:28
jelkneri only need the final grades view17:28
th1aOK.  Good.17:28
jelknerso i can give grades17:28
jelknerstudents should be able to see that too17:28
jelknerand parents17:28
jelkneri don't mean the whole class view17:29
jelknerjust their individual summaries17:29
jelknernevermind, that is done :-017:29
aelknerah, so final grades view should also be a part of student's gradebook (mygrades)17:29
aelknerglad you mentioned it17:29
jelknerthey should know what grade they received17:29
aelknerand the same reason for it17:30
aelknerthe adjustment and comment we discussed17:30
aelknerso the other meeting #2 was cancelled17:31
aelknerdue to snow17:31
aelknerwe were going to recruit some more users17:31
aelknerbut that will have to wait until early january17:31
aelkneri'm waiting to hear about the new meeting17:31
aelknerand we could schedule another YHS meeting around it17:32
jelknermy assumption is: january 8 and 917:32
aelkneri prefer to kill two brds with one stone17:32
aelknerwell it's not up to us17:32
jelknerour monthly area meetings are always on the 2nd wed17:32
jelknerwhich will 1/917:33
aelknerbut the other meeting is Morton's to schedule17:33
jelknerso we will do ours on 1/817:33
jelknerhe is using the normal county wide meeting17:33
jelknerand just putting us on the agenda17:33
jelkneri'll confirm with dwelsh17:34
th1aAll right then.  Have a great week, gentlemen.17:34
jelknerone more thing before we go17:34
th1aWell, you can keep talking.17:34
th1aI'm not going anywhere.17:34
jelknerwe have eldar back for a month17:34
th1aI'm just going to drop the bag of gravel.17:34
aelknerhold onto that bag of gravel...17:34
jelknerwe should get him into schooltool work as well17:34
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:34
ignasjelkner: eldar is going to be working on cando ?17:35
th1aWhat month?17:35
jelknerthis month17:35
jelknerhe is a college student17:35
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jelknerhe has from like next week until the 3rd week of january17:35
jelknerhe emailed me saying he is available17:35
jelknerwe don't have any money for cando17:35
jelknereldar has skills17:36
jelknercan't we use him on schooltool?17:36
aelknerjelkner: could we give him the following task?17:36
aelknerjournals need to be messages, remember?17:36
aelknerright now they only appear as messages in the UI17:36
ignasisn't it cando?17:36
ignas(which is why want to know what is he going to be working on)17:36
jelknerhe just wants to work17:37
aelkneri'm talking cando right now17:37
jelknerignas: what he does is up to us17:37
th1aHe could do that journal/message stuff.17:37
jelkneri say we don't touch cando until more funding comes in17:37
aelknerthat's what i mean17:37
aelknerbut if we have him17:37
aelknerhe would be good for that project17:37
jelknerwe don't have cando money17:37
aelknerthat's up to Tom17:37
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jelknerso it really isn't an option17:37
aelkneri haven't used up as much money as tom budgeted for me this year17:38
jelknerare there schooltool things he could do?17:38
aelknerso maybe eldar could use some for cando work17:38
ignasjelkner: always17:39
jelknerthen that would be better17:39
aelknerjelkner: why are you stearing eldar away from cando?17:39
aelknerthat's where he has more expertise anyway17:39
jelknerbecause i'm trying to avoid problems17:39
jelknercando has no money17:39
jelknereldar wants work17:39
jelknerfor which he would like to be paid ;-)17:39
aelknerwe're talking jsut three weeks, right?17:39
ignasjelkner: i just want to have something prepared if he will be working on schooltool17:39
jelknerthat's why i brought this up17:40
jelknereldar emailed me a few days ago17:40
aelknerth1a: could eldar work on cando for just those three weeks?17:40
jelkneri wrote back to him with my stock answer: jump on #schooltool and talk to ignas17:40
jelknerbut i'd be glad to play a more active role in contacting him17:41
jelkneri wanted to discuss it here first though17:41
aelknerit looks like tom is away from his desk17:42
aelkneri'd love it if eldar worked on the journal/messaging problem17:42
aelknerhe has extensive knowledge with journaling17:42
ignasjelkner, aelkner: just tell me when you will know for sure whether it's cando journaling, schooltool gradebook or schooltool something-else please.17:44
th1aIt is fine with me.17:45
aelknerwhich is fine?17:45
aelknereldar working on cando journaling?17:45
th1aI'd rather have Eldar work on CanDo.17:45
aelknerjsut for the short term?17:45
aelknerjelkner: have eldar contact me when he's ready17:46
jelknerso i'll get back in touch with eldar and tell him to contact aelkner17:46
ignasjinty: thanks, cando seems to be working with KGS + schooltool2007alpha617:59
ignasshould be a lot less likely to break down randomly when someone messes up PYPI now17:59
aelknerignas: does this mean filip will be able to work with cando now and have the tests pass?18:07
ignaslet me do a test run ;)18:08
ignasyes - i think so, except for the lxml test failure18:08
aelknerthere's no way you know of to fix that?18:09
ignaswell - my suggestion number one would be18:09
ignasto not use lxml, and to switch to libxml2 for example, even though i think lxml is better18:09
ignasjust to make cando work in a buildout18:09
ignasif that is not an option - then someone has to just dive in18:10
ignasand try to find out18:10
ignashow are lxml version different in gutsy vs older ubuntu18:10
ignasand fix that bug so it would work on all of them18:10
aelknermaybe filip could do the research18:11
aelknerif he has a non-gutsy machine18:11
aelknerto compare18:11
ignasi don't really know how skilled are the interns18:11
ignasi haven't worked that much with them18:12
aelknerfilip gets around with distros pretty well18:12
ignasi'll try to get at least some tests working18:12
ignassome of the failures are due to Zope3 changes18:12
aelknerthat would help a lot, thanks18:12
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ignasaelkner: ok, cando tests now pass with KGS and schooltool 2007 alpha19:03
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th1ajinty seems to be having some connectivity problems...20:40
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