IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-08-20

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aelknerhey ignas16:15
aelknerMy sister-in-law thought you were a terrific guest, by the way,  She says she enjoyed showing you the city.16:16
ignasi enjoyed seeing the city a lot too16:17
aelknerSo you got to see where the big bad Bush sleeps.16:18
th1aI'm glad ignas saw a little more of the city.16:25
th1aWell, Vivian's streak of consecutive days without making her father get up in the middle of the night ended last night.16:29
th1aConsidering that streak encompassed her entire life up to this point, I can't complain.16:29
th1aBut I'm a little woozy right now.16:29
th1aHi ignas, jfroche, Lumiere, aelkner.16:32
th1aAnd always nice to see SteveA stop by.16:32
th1aI don't have anything specific to cover this week.16:32
Lumierehi al16:32
th1aAnd since ignas was on vacation, this might be quick.16:32
th1aignas:  How was your vacation?16:32
ignasquite nice16:33
ignasthank you16:33
ignasi spend the couple of days i had looking at pcardunes competency gradebook16:33
ignasand trying to apply the ajax patterns on lyceum gradebook16:33
ignasand doing some post sprint cleanups16:33
ignasso that lyceum branch would be using trunk again16:34
ignasi will try to make lyceum act as an egg the way cando does16:34
ignasso it would be a proper plugin16:34
ignaswith a separate repository16:34
ignasthat's it16:35
th1aignas: Yes, those seem like good ideas.16:35
jfrocheyup i have a meeting with the school this week16:35
jfrocheto keep the contact and to speak about the production instance16:36
jfrochei am changing some of the gradebook views16:37
jfrocheexcept that nothing new16:37
th1ajfroche: OK.  Thanks.16:37
jfrochenext week i have a kss sprint here in Belgium16:37
th1aThe week of the 27th?16:38
th1aOr this week?16:38
jfrochenext week 2716:38
jfrochebut i ll go to the school at the end of the week16:38
jfrochejust before the september16:38
th1aRegular visits at this point will be necessary.16:38
th1aI'm feeling a little guilty because I found things to do last week other than write help files.16:39
th1aI became obsessed with whether or not we could just use Jabber to send SIF objects instead of the crazy SIF_HTTP infrastructure.16:40
jfrocheabout help files, do you want subtopics of subtopics also sorted based on id ?16:40
th1ajfroche: It would be nice.16:40
aelknerth1a: what's this about SIF?  Are you considering a radical change?16:40
th1aaelkner: Well, I couldn't restrain myself...16:41
aelknerI've noticed that about you16:41
LumiereI think I am going to go hide in a corner16:41
th1aThe ultimate answer is that once the Jabber client libraries catch up to some of the latest Jabber specs,16:41
th1ait will be really easy to do.16:42
aelknerdo what exactly?16:42
Lumiereuse a jabber server as a zis16:42
LumiereI assume16:42
th1aBut at this point I'd have to learn how to read Jabber specs and hack the Jabber libraries.16:42
th1aLumiere: Yes, the Jabber server serves as the ZIS.16:43
th1aAnd uses the Jabber PubSub spec.16:43
th1aAnyhow, the idea is officially shelved for the time being.16:43
th1aIt is promising though.16:43
aelknerwhat about the ZIS you were working on when we saw you?16:43
th1aaelkner: Yes, I will finish it.16:44
th1aI have returned to sanity.16:44
th1aBaseline sanity.16:44
aelknerhoffman sanity16:44
th1aLumiere: News from CanDo-land?16:44
Lumiereaelkner: I think I know what th1a and jelkner get along so well ;)16:44
Lumiereth1a: I'll let aelkner handle cando this week16:45
LumiereI've been swamped at my other job16:45
aelknerwell, last wek i made changes to the new skin to get some of the menus to woek16:45
aelknerI've been trying to catch up with the code base to understand how grading will work16:46
aelknerNobody else has been around much16:46
aelknerFor instance, pcardune left the gradebook in quite a state16:47
aelknerIt seems that he got rid of dashboard code (probably your fault)16:47
aelknerand that code is needed for our summary page16:47
aelknerhe's had internet acces issues16:48
th1aHey, I didn't want to get rid of it entirely.16:48
aelknerso he hasn't gotten back to me on that16:48
th1aIs pcardune in the US?16:48
Lumierehe's in Walla Walla again16:48
aelknerthe whole school's internet seems to be down16:49
aelkneranyway, i'll get him to return the code16:49
th1aI guess there are going to be some IT guys looking for new jobs in Walla Walla.16:50
aelknerpaul should have an interesting story to tell16:50
aelknerLumiere: are you going to see Dave today?16:50
th1aOK... anything else?16:51
Lumierebut I am going to call him16:51
Lumierehe's on semi-vacation16:51
th1aA slow August meeting...16:51
LumiereI have to setup a st-buildout16:51
Lumiereor something16:51
Lumiereso he can keep working16:52
aelknerI have questions about the UI.  I sent him a note, but I don't know how quickly he will get back to me16:52
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.16:53
aelknerFor instance, do you happen to know which sections of the dashboard need to go in the summary page?16:53
th1aHave a good week folks.16:53
aelknerok, thanks16:53
th1aWe'll let these guys discuss CanDo now...16:53
Lumiereaelkner: my view is somewhat different to his16:54
LumiereI would like to see summary show anything that needs action16:54
Lumiereand give access to it in no more then 2 clicks16:54
aelknermakes sense16:54
LumiereI only say 216:55
Lumierebecause I give you an option to make a drop down if required :)16:55
aelknerso what needs action?  could you give me specifics?16:56
Lumieredo I have compentencies to grade (yes always... would be a safe answer)16:57
Lumieredo I have journals waiting for me16:57
aelknerjournal notification, right?16:57
aelknerwhere's eldar with that?  have you heard from him lately.  i haven't16:57
aelkneris he working on the trunk cause i haven't seen any commits16:58
Lumierehe's in a branch16:58
aelknerit looks like it's called queuing17:00
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aelkneri'm looking at it now.  i hope to hear from him eventually.17:04
LumiereI don't expect to see anyone till like 10:3017:05
aelknerdo I have compentencies to grade: could you explain what you mean by that?17:05
Lumiereaelkner: basically... any section you are in17:05
Lumiereshould be listed17:05
Lumierewith easy access to the basic things you would do in that section17:06
aelknercould you list those?17:06
Lumieregrading comps is like #1 thing someone would be thinking of doing in cando17:06
Lumierethey shouldn't have to drill down 5-7 layers17:06
Lumiereto find that17:06
aelkneranything else?17:07
Lumiereaelkner: forum (not section journal probably), comps, skill drivers coming due17:07
aelkneri thought the forum WAS the section journal17:07
Lumierethere are supposedly 2 remaining talk areas17:08
Lumiereforum (all students + all instructors)17:08
Lumiereand section journals (individual student + all instructors)17:08
aelknersection journals are obviously tied to sections17:09
aelknerwhat are forums toed to?17:09
Lumiereforums are tied to section as well17:10
aelkneri'll have to look at the code17:10
aelknerit's not clear to me why we have a sctions tab if the summary page is supposed to do everything you said with sections17:11
Lumieresummary shouldn't give access to more then the 2-3 things you do most often17:13
Lumierein a section17:13
Lumierethe point isn't to replace the section tab17:14
Lumiereit's to bypass the excess clicking when you don't need it17:14
aelknercan you give me an example of the clicking one might do when using the sections tab?17:14
Lumiereclick sections tab, search for section (maybe), click on section name, choose actions menu, choose what to do17:16
aelknerok, we have that working17:17
LumiereI know17:18
Lumierewhat I am saying is the summary should allow bypassing of some of that17:18
aelkneri got that17:19
aelkneri was affirming what you said17:19
aelknerso for sure we don't want the blog to come up like it does now17:19
aelkneron the summary page17:19
aelknerblogs are dead, right?17:20
Lumiereif not17:21
LumiereI want to kill them17:21
aelknerwell, the new basicperson got rid of the link, so all we have to do is get rid of it from the summary page17:22
aelknerthen it will be officially dead17:22
Lumieredoooo iiiit :)17:22
Lumiereplease think of the sound of a chain saw17:22
Lumierewhile you chop it out17:22
aelknerhave you been testing the new skin at all?  do we have a bug list?17:26
LumiereI have not17:26
LumiereI've been utterly swamped at my other job17:26
Lumierewelsh has been17:27
Lumierebut has not said anything17:27
aelknerhas he entered anything in trac?17:27
Lumierebut he'll enter into LP17:27
LumiereLP sends me email on bug creation17:27
aelknerbut you haven't got any emails meaning he hasn't created any bug reports17:28
aelknerAnd the existing bugs are probably not all relevant anymore now that we changed the skin17:29
Lumieremost are17:30
jfrocheignas: i have a problem, looks like i have broken ftests with my last ci, i have read the log  but i don't see where is the problem17:30
Lumierebecause they seem to be permission related17:30
jfrocheignas: seems that there is no skin for devmode ?17:32
jfrocheuhm this is since r714417:33
th1ajfroche: yes, it is annoying.17:36
jfrocheyep seems to be an old problem17:37
Lumiereaelkner: can you hop on google talk?17:38
Lumieredwelsh and pcardune are online17:38
Lumierebut neither can access irc17:38
aelknerLumiere: hopw do i hop on goggle talk?17:39
aelkneri know about gmail chat17:39
aelknerbut that's it17:39
Lumieregmail chat17:40
aelknerLumiere: send me a gmail chat so I can have you in my list17:45
Lumiereaelkner@gmail?17:45, yes17:45
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aelknerLumiere: are people meeting in google land in a more than one on one way?17:46
Lumierewe were trying17:46
Lumierelooks like one on one only17:51
aelknerLumiere: send me a gmail chat please?17:53
LumiereI did17:54
Lumiereabout 10 minutes ago17:55
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aelknerLumiere: i got nothing from you.  I'm at aelkner@gmail.com18:12
Lumiereaelkner: I dunno then18:46
aelknerWhat's your gmail address?18:47
aelknerLumiere: are you getting my chat messages?18:59
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Lumierehi pcardune, jelkner19:55
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jelknerLumiere: hi20:04
jelknerpcardune is working with my brother20:04
jelkneri'm waiting to talk to them until they finish...20:04
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aelknerjelkner: i'm off the phone with paul if want to call me21:40
jelknerin a moment21:44
jelkneri'm chatting with pranava about doctest quiz21:45
jelknerpcardune: u still here?21:47
pcardunejelkner: yes21:48
jelkneri am talking here with Pranava Swaroop (sudinf)21:48
jelknerhe is very interested in doctest quiz21:48
jelknerand wants to work on it21:48
pcarduneyes, he mentioned as much to me earlier21:50
jelknerok, well, he is serious21:50
jelknerand i (of course) *really* want to help him get started!21:50
jelknerso, what would you recommend he do?21:50
jelknerhe has a *strong* CS background21:51
jelknerbut no zope 3 experience21:51
pcardunewell there are a number of different routes21:51
pcardunelet me check on something real quick21:51
pcarduneThe first thing he should do is check out the code, which can be found at
pcardunethat is the trac source browser page21:52
pcardunesudinf: you can check out this code by make a small modification to the instructons on under installation (namely, change the /trunk part of the url to /branches/doctest-quiz)21:53
pcardunethe second step would be working on the code itself for which you could do a number of things21:54
pcardunethe easiest is probably to just give you commit access to our repository and to have you work in that branch21:55
pcardunealternatively if you want to manage the code yourself, or make something that is slightly different or that you want to be separate from schooltool itself (more of a zope application), then you would probably want to start a separate product in launchpad and use bzr21:56
pcardunewhat more precisely are you planning on doing with doctest-quiz?21:56
sudinfwell my aim is to build an online judge that I had talked about before21:57
sudinffirst step is I need to completely understand what is DOCTESTQUIZ21:57
jelknerjust the kind of thing i had hoped doctest quiz would become21:57
pcardunesudinf: ok, well the first step is pretty easy... we don't need to give you commit access and all the code is available21:58
sudinfand then I need to understand  zope 321:58
pcarduneEldar Omuraliev is the best person to contact about code questions21:58
jelknerbut he will be unreachable for a few weeks21:58
jelkneri can answer questions about the intent of it, since i was the customer21:59
jelkneri wanted a way to automate evaluations of student work21:59
pcardunesudinf: after you have learned more about doctestquiz, I guess it would be up to you to decide how you want your application to work (schooltool integration or not, zope or not, etc.) and we can talk about other things then21:59
jelknermuch like you are describing doing21:59
jelknertwo summers ago21:59
jelknerstephan richter told us we could use zope's secure python to do what i wanted22:00
jelknerand eldar began working on it22:00
jelknerat present, it permits you to create quiz items expressed as doctests22:00
jelknerand automatically evaluates them22:00
jelknerlike i explained in our chat a few minutes ago, more pressing priorities22:01
jelknergot in the way of working on it this summer22:01
jelknerbut it is still very much on my radar22:01
jelkneri planned to revive it as soon as i could22:02
sudinfI have a problem now, Itried to checkout the svn and I got this error message"svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/trac/cando/browser/branches/doctest-quiz' "22:02
jelkneri basically want to created online curriculum with automatic evaluations22:02
pcardunesudinf: the url i gave you is only for web browsers :)22:02
pcardunesudinf: the url for doing checkouts is available listed in cando.schooltool.org22:03
sudinfjelkner: what do you mean by online curriculum?22:03
jelkneri want quizzes at the end of each chapter22:04
jelknerthat can be completed and evaluated through the web22:04
pcarduneI'm afraid I have to depart for lunch22:04
jelknerpcardune: thanks, paul!22:05
pcarduneBut i'll be back in about 45 minutes if you have more questions22:05
pcardunebye bye22:05
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jelknersudinf: do you have everything you need to get started?22:05
sudinfI think yes22:06
jelknerzope 3 has a *steep* learning curve22:06
jelkner(but no more than the linux kernel, i'm sure ;-)22:06
jelknerwe spend about a year training students to be able to work on the project22:07
jelknerthe super bright ones can do it in about half that time22:07
jelknerbut it ain't easy22:07
jelkner(just to warn you)22:07
sudinflet me see if I can be in those ones ;)22:07
jelknerok, i need to run22:08
jelknerplease email me again if you need anything22:08
sudinfI was just looking at the
jelkneri'll be doing a lot of work on that this school year22:08
sudinfwhat you meant over here is that at the end of each chapter you are going to provide questions22:09
sudinfand then the solitions will be provided by the students22:09
jelknerand automatically evaluated22:09
sudinfwhich will be accepted and shown to you only if they are correct22:09
sudinfthe present tool that we have - doctestquiz does what?22:10
jelknerit does that22:10
jelknerstudents are presented with a question in the form of a doctest22:10
sudinfI mean is it working22:11
jelknerthey have an input box into which they type a solution22:11
jelknerand then they get feedback as to whether or not their solutions passed22:11
jelkneryes, it does that already22:11
sudinfso what are the additins that are needed to be done?22:11
jelknerwell, the additions i need are more related to cando22:12
jelkneri want to have a library of doctest quiz items related to particular competencies (looping, data types, etc)22:13
jelkneri want students to be able to request a "quiz" whenever they wish22:13
sudinfone big thing that I am not getting is where does this cando pop up from, what exactly is cando22:13
jelknercando is a competency tracking tool22:14
jelknerwe are developing it for the state of virginia (where i teach)22:14
jelknerto deliver competency based education22:14
sudinfah! good afternoon sir!!22:14
jelknersee: http://cando.schooltool.org22:15
aelknerjelkner, don't call me just yet22:15
jelkneraelkner: when?22:15
aelkneron the phone22:15
aelknerafter that22:15
jelkneri have class here in 45 minutes22:15
jelknerok, let me know22:16
aelknerit wont be more then 10 mins22:16
sudinfwell I am actually working on a similar kind of system22:16
sudinfit is known as computer based assignment submission system22:16
sudinfCBASS in short22:16
sudinfbut it doesen't have a doctestquiz tool22:17
jelknerperhaps you will find other things to your liking in schooltool/cando?22:17
sudinfwhen are you free this week22:18
jelknernothing would make us happier than to have our project take on one of the missing components to become a successful free software project22:18
jelknera community of users other than us22:18
jelknerok, i need to go22:19
sudinfjelkner: I will do one thing I will go through all the things that you have mentioned22:19
jelknerbut i look forward to hearing from you how things go22:19
sudinfI 'll mail you the things as I get it and will ask you for your comments on it22:19
aelknerjelkner, off in 2 mins22:19
* jelkner signs off to call his brother...22:20
sudinfso I 'll take leave22:20
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