IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2007-06-19

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pcarduneLumiere: ayt?00:43
pcardunedwelsh: ayt?00:43
pcarduneI think I just found a *really* bad security hole in CanDo00:43
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th1apcardune: In CanDo or SchoolTool?04:07
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pcarduneth1a: in CanDo07:54
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jintyLumiere, I think I killed your buildslave, mind checking what it's doing?11:19
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jfrocherosetta still doesn't have any search feature ?13:38
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jfroche_ignas: hello ! q: new rosetta still don't have search functionality ?15:10
ignasdon't think so, you can ask about it in #launchpad though to be suere15:11
jfroche_ok tkx15:12
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pcardunegood morning all, dwelsh16:29
dwelshgood morning all16:33
ignaspcardune: hi16:33
pcardunehi ignas16:34
ignaspcardune: how long will you be online?16:34
pcardunehours and hours?16:34
ignasi will be busy for 30-40 minutes now16:34
ignasbut it seems that I need some explaining of Zope security policy to do ;)16:34
pcardunewell maybe yes16:34
pcardunealthough I think I'm going to give up and go with the different interfaces + classes16:35
ignasstill - your plan is wrong16:35
ignasor at least misinformed16:35
pcarduneok, well in that case I'd still appreciate an explanation16:35
pcarduneI am continuously misinformed about security related things16:35
pcarduneignas: I'm free in 2.5 hours16:36
pcardune(after some meetings)16:36
ignasok, sounds good16:36
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wdickersgood morning16:43
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wdickersmlinnell: could you give me your email? I don't have it16:46
mlinnellyeah, one sec16:46
mlinnellk sent16:47
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jintyLumiere, pcardune: the buildbot is up, will run on commits to the cando repo and send failures to the cando-checkins mailing list16:53
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pcardunejinty: thanks a bunch16:54
jintyit does the equivalent of svn up; make build; make test; make ftest16:54
jintyof course it's failing right now16:54
jintyhave fun :)16:54
pcardunenot only is it failing, but it is failing with a strange error in compiling zope16:55
pcarduneand that frightens me16:55
dwelshlumiere:  good morning16:56
dwelshwdickers:  you ready?16:57
th1aI need to grab my coffee.16:57
wdickersI'm not exactly sure what I should do, I am having a persistence problem with the ZODB. I can't modify the list of person objects -_-16:59
wdickersHowever, the XML messages are being sent/received/parsed perfectly16:59
ignaslist or Persistent list16:59
ignasor PersonContainer?16:59
dwelshth1a:  get a LOT of coffee!17:00
th1adwelsh: Ready.17:01
th1awdickers: jinty's advice didn't help?17:02
wdickersno, that was a problem with the queue, which is a dictionary that I stuck into the ZODB. However, now when I try to add/delete a person from the personContainer, the changes don't stick either17:03
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ignasinteresting, care to paste the code?17:04
pcardunehi tdoggette17:04
ignaslisppaste5: url17:04
lisppaste5To use the lisppaste bot, visit and enter your paste.17:04
pcarduneto lisppaste517:04
tdoggetteSorry I'm late, exams.17:05
pcardunedon't worry, we haven't started yet17:05
tdoggetteOk, good.17:05
wdickerssure. Just on sec though, I think I may have found the problem17:05
th1awdickers: Did using a persistent dictionary work for the queue problem?17:05
wdickersFor now i'm ignoring that error, I'm just using a dbm file17:06
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wdickerspasting code now17:09
lisppaste5wdickers pasted "stAgent Database" at
wdickersI think the problem is that I caste the container into a dict, and modifying that just changes the dictionary, not the object17:11
th1aIs there some reason you did that?17:13
wdickersI could not find a way to add/remove people from it.17:13
pcarduneit uses the same api as a dictionary17:13
pcarduneas in like persons['joe'] = Person(u"Joe")17:14
pcardunedel persons['joe17:14
wdickersahh,  okay17:14
wdickersretesting now17:15
th1awdickers: Had you tried that or just assumed it was more complicated?17:15
wdickersI assumed it was more complicated. I was looking for an 'add' method for some reason17:16
Lumierehi all17:16
th1aHi Lumiere.17:16
th1aAre some of us in the same physical location?17:19
Lumieredwelsh and I are now17:19
pcardunebut that's about it :)17:19
tdoggetteWhere are you, wdickers?17:19
wdickersI'm at my house17:19
ignaswdickers: are you including schooltools site.zcml in your agent implementation17:19
ignasaren't you?17:20
th1aYou mean to find the database?17:20
wdickersI'm not sure what you mean, so probably not. Could you explain?17:20
ignaswdickers: you see, when you del app['persons']['some-key']17:20
ignasan IObjectRemoved event is fired17:21
ignasbut if your agent is not including schooltools site.zcml17:21
ignasthere will be no subscribers for that event17:21
ignasso the integrity of the application will be compromised17:21
th1aThis is good to know.17:21
th1aWhat does "including schooltool's site.zcml" entail?17:22
tdoggetteNote to self: avoid compromisation of application integrity.17:22
ignasno idea, really, haven't tried doing that, i think pcardune has worked more with Zope adapter registry from a non Zope3 application17:22
lisppaste5wdickers pasted "stAgent Add" at
th1apcardune: Do you have any insight into this?17:24
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Lumierewdickers: try and use the annotate this paste button ;)17:24
pcarduneumm, I don't have much insights unfortunately17:25
wdickersAha, that is more efficient, thanks Lumiere17:25
pcarduneat least not with integrating non zope3 application with existing zope 3 application through the adapter registry17:25
pcardunealthough, stagent shouldn't be a non-zope3 app no?17:26
tdoggetteWhy would it need to use zope?17:26
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algathat's exactly what the RESTive interface was meant for17:27
wdickersWell I believe the Queue may end up being a zope object and it DOES use the ZODB17:27
algaI suggest you resurrect REST and use it to access and manipulate ST data17:27
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pcarduneoh i suppose it wouldn't necessarily need to use zope, but is sure would make it easier17:27
dwelshtha1:  are you thinking we should plan on using TinyZIS?17:28
dwelshOr will your enterprise effort be baked by the end of summer?17:28
th1aalga may have a point... REST methods should still work for adding and deleting persons.17:28
dwelshor is there something else we should use17:28
LumiereTinyZIS will work fine for the size group we're planning17:28
algaand firing all the event handlers!17:28
th1adwelsh: You should probably assume you're using TinyZIS.17:28
dwelsh(he says proudly:))17:29
dwelshI love new fathers!17:29
th1aalga: btw, are you expecting baby #2?17:29
algath1a: true, true17:29
algain late July17:29
th1aalga: Congratulations.17:29
algathank you!17:30
ignasdwelsh: so yes, indeed, it would make more sense to add a schooltool REST view that publishes the queue17:30
algawe're also having a house constructed:
ignasdwelsh: and use REST views to manipulate schooltool objects17:30
ignaswhich would make your agent Zope3 independent17:30
ignasyou would not have to use ZEO even17:30
algawriting RESTive views is easy :-)17:31
algaand I guess you'll need to17:31
wdickerswell I'm up for anything that makes communicating with the ZODB easy :)17:32
th1aAt least there are examples.17:32
tdoggetteWhat is REST, by the way?17:32
algatdoggette: a web-service architectural style17:32
algait stands for REpresentational State Transerfer17:32
th1aBasically, you add an object by sending a little XML message to the right URL in SchoolTool.17:33
algathe idea is to use the standard HTTP methods as "verbs":17:33
th1aAdd or whatever else you want to do.17:33
algaso, the method is a "verb" and the URI is a "noun", or object17:34
algadelete a person: DELETE /persons/person000117:34
ignasthere is a that can be used as an example/library for comunicating with schooltool through REST17:34
algamore about REST:
th1aSchoolTool was originally designed to have a desktop client (no web interface) that did everything with REST.17:35
algaIt's a doctoral thesis17:35
tdoggettealga: Thanks! I'll read up.17:35
th1aWhen I took over I said we needed to have a web interface, and we tried to keep both going for a while, but it made development even slower.17:36
wdickersdo you know where is?17:36
th1aAnd we didn't know what the use case for REST was anymore.17:36
algaSIS integrations is EXACTLY the use-case for REST!17:36
eldarisn't rest a little bit out of date though17:36
ignasit is17:37
ignasso when you will encounter problems with it17:37
ignasyou will have to fix it17:37
ignasbut for adding/removing persons it might work17:37
algadepends on what you want to do with it17:37
ignashmm, okay maybe you will have to do something about demographics and stuff17:37
algaI'm sure deleting persons will work out of the box :-)17:38
ignasso for removing persons it will surely work17:38
ignasfor adding - it depends17:38
algaadding -- yes17:38
algabut demographics, etc -- no so much :)17:38
wdickerswell I think before I jump into rest, we should find out how to directly add python objects to the ZODB. That's the way stAgent is currently set up17:39
ignaswdickers: remove the "dict" part17:40
ignasand it should just work17:40
ignashmm, or maybe not17:40
th1aThe fact of the matter is that getting REST view to work would be a fair amount of work in itself.17:40
ignasas you don't know *which* person object to create17:40
wdickersI did, but the databse still isn't being refreshed17:40
ignasth1a: the fact is that getting stAgent to work with schooltool database will take more work17:40
wdickerscheck out my recent lisp post :P17:40
th1aignas: I wish I'd known that six months ago :-(17:41
pcarduneth1a: better 6 months than 7 or 8 :)17:41
ignasth1a: ok17:43
ignashow important is it to have stAgent independent from Zope3/SchoolTool ?17:43
ignasbecause though it would not be as clean, it is possible to have stAgent as a plugin for schooltool17:44
ignasrather than as a separate application17:44
ignasthough it will have to depend on schooltool, and will be something like a small schooltool server without the server/UI part17:44
th1astAgent has to send out HTTP requests, so it has to be able to do that without blocking the rest of the server.17:44
pcarduneif anyone wants to look at the code, it is here:
ignasthe part in question is how it should communicate with schooltool17:45
th1aThe ONLY reason to keep it separate is to make it easier.17:45
pcarduneth1a: can't it do that by just running it's own server on another thread?17:45
th1aThere are many ways to do it, to be sure.17:45
ignaspcardune: if you will add the part that can run one more thread in the schooltool process ...17:45
th1aI just THOUGHT the easiest was using ZEO.17:45
ignasit might be, without spiking it's impossible to know17:46
th1aApparently ZEO was harder than I thought, so we're wide open to any options.17:46
ignasyou should try looking at REST, and looking at attaching of one more thread to schooltool, and into the loading of site.zcml17:46
ignasbut you will have to prototype these yourself i am afraid17:47
ignasREST is the simplest way from the complexity standpoint17:47
ignasas in - it's simple to do17:47
pcarduneI'm glad this is the topic of our first sprint17:47
ignasbut will require more of that work17:47
ignasadding a thread to schooltool, is something i have no idea how to do at the moment17:48
th1aWe also need to think about how to do this given the available developers.17:48
ignasand integrating CA in your agent17:48
ignasis workable too17:48
th1aIt seems like if pcardune can figure out the thread issue, then the rest of the development would be a lot easier for the other interns.17:48
pcarduneth1a: or the site.zcml issue as well17:49
pcarduneI'm sure it is possible to load site.zcml in python17:49
ignasi personally would go for site.zcml17:49
pcardunewell, obviously it is possible17:49
ignasit is possible, schooltool does it ;)17:49
ignaszope3 does it too17:49
pcarduneI think that would just require some hunting and pecking and maybe a few zope3-dev list serv emails17:50
ignasso you add schooltool/stagent for debug views and subscribers and add in parallel with schooltool-server.py17:50
ignason the other hand - REST is the most robust, and clean way to implement stagent17:51
tdoggetteBut seeing as stAgent is a necessary component of SchoolTool anyway, why not integrate it?17:52
tdoggetteThat is, wouldn't that be the Right Way (TM) to do it?17:53
ignastdoggette: necessary?17:54
ignasfor whom?17:54
th1aIt isn't necessary for everyone.17:54
ignasintegrating it makes it less robust as now you have 2 applications in the same process17:54
wdickerswell I think he means it is a much desired feature for schooltool, so it should be shipped out with it17:55
tdoggetteYeah, what he said.17:55
wdickersbut ignas is right, stagent 'wakes up17:55
wdickers' every so often by itself17:55
algaSIS integration is kind of irrelevant outside USA, isn't it?17:56
wdickersso it's really independent, except for subscribing to modification events17:56
ignasZIS not SIS17:56
algasorry, ZIS17:56
ignasso there are 2 parts of stAgent17:56
th1aThe agent's behavior overall is pretty different than a server's behavior.17:56
ignasthe one with subscribers and the queue17:56
ignasand another one that handles the talking ZIS and schooltool17:57
th1aWell, there's a base class that handles talking to the ZIS, and stAgent talks to SchoolTool.17:57
wdickersright, schooltool doesn't 'know' about that second part17:57
wdickersin the bzr branch the part that goes into schooltool is StAgentPackage17:58
th1aOh, right.17:58
th1aAnd there's that part.17:58
wdickersThat's the thing that subscribes to modification events to add them to the queue17:59
th1aI guess the big question at this point is whether we can get some pcardune time on this problem.18:00
th1aBecause I think we'll need it to get over this hump.18:00
tdoggetteIsn't he coming to the sprint next week?18:00
tdoggetteAs I understand it, stAgagent is the main focus.18:01
tdoggetteOr one of them, at least.18:01
wdickersI won't be physically here, but I should be able to meet up online18:02
algahaha, funny :)18:03
algaI assume you're the one getting paid for it, right? :)18:03
wdickerswell up to the point I leave, yup18:04
th1apcardune: ?18:05
pcarduneapparently not at the moment18:06
pcarduneTalk to dwelsh about my time18:06
th1aSo the fact of the matter is, we're completely stuck.18:06
wdickersSo there's no easy way to hack into the ZODB and modify a container object?18:07
algait's easy, but it's messy18:07
ignaswdickers: i hadn't looked at your code yet18:07
pcardunemessy and easy don't sound like they could ever go together18:08
algaat the same time? you'd need to run ZEO to get both apps use the same DB18:08
algabut it's doable18:08
th1aEasy until it breaks.18:08
wdickersAren't we already using ZEO?18:08
algaah, ok18:09
th1aThe point is that if there is a subscriber that should automatically do something, say, when you add a person, that event won't be fired the way things are currently set up.18:09
LumiereZIS/SIF functionality is cando related and would be an appropriate use of pcardune time ;)18:09
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pcarduneI'm sure other people have come up with solutions to this problem18:09
wdickersth1a: no, the event is fired, and the message is send, but modifying the databse at the other end fails18:10
pcardunewdickers: but we are theorizing the the modification fails because certain *other* events aren't caught18:10
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th1aI think ignas's points are about problems we have not gotten to yet.18:11
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ignasth1a: yes, the ones you will get to as soon as you'll manage to delete the person ;)18:11
ignasnow - can you give me the repo url so i could set up18:11
wdickersahh, I see18:12
ignasthe stagent thingie myself18:12
ignasand look at the running code18:12
ignaspcardune: as for security18:12
ignasthere are 2 levels/steps for security declarations18:12
ignaspcardune: that's a bzr repo?18:12
pcarduneoh wait, no18:13
pcarduneremove the browse part18:13
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ignaspcardune: step 1 is the class declaration that binds attributes/interfaces to permissions18:13
ignasso if you want schooltool.edit to control access to some attribute you do that18:13
ignasin the <class> declaration in zcml18:14
ignasthe other part is the crowd selection for the object/permission pair18:14
ignasso zope takes an object (Person for example)18:14
ignastries to access his title18:14
ignaslooks at class declaration and sees "title is controled by schooltool.view"18:14
ignasthen it goes to securitypolicy18:15
ignasand asks - does this principal (currently logged in guy)18:15
ignashave "schooltool.view" permission on this "Person" object18:15
dwelshwdickers:  will/can you be at all/part of the upcoming Arlnigton sprint???18:15
ignasnow our brand new shiny security policy looks at all the <allow> directives18:15
dwelshwe obviously have some more work to do on this18:15
wdickersdwelsh: I plan to be online that entire day18:15
pcarduneignas: yes, i understand that, as a quick fix i just created a new permission18:16
dwelshthurs, fri, sat and sunday18:16
dwelshwhat parts of which days are you around for?18:16
ignasmy point is - wanting to add attributes to <crowd> is not really possible18:16
ignasas interfaces in allow18:16
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ignasare invoked in the second part of the lookup18:16
ignasthat only gets Object and Permission18:16
dwelshthurs, june 28 - sunday, july 118:16
dwelshthurs, june 28th may be the most important day18:17
dwelshis that the day you're talking about?18:17
ignaspcardune: you understand in what way adding attributes="members something-else" to <allow> was a flawed idea?18:17
pcarduneI hadn't thought about it really hard at that point18:18
ignasjust wanted to be suer18:18
ignashow do i run the agent?18:18
wdickersdwelsh: My classes start the 30th, but I should be able to be on most/part of the time. I'm not sure if I'm going up there the 28th or s9th18:19
wdickersignas: Run as in full blown taking events and making messages?18:19
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wdickersSee the README.txt, there's quite a few steps18:19
wdickersyou have to have two cando/schooltool instances, chesty, and tinyZIS18:19
th1aignas:   you should need this:
mgedminyay sourceforge for being the canonical unreliable software repository that breaks schooltool's buildbot:
th1aI guess one important question at this point is whether or not directly manipulating persons (in particular) is a hypothetical or real problem.18:20
th1aBy "real" I mean "immediate."18:23
ignasth1a: immediate18:24
ignasZIS can delete manager18:24
ignasand nothing is there to stop it18:24
ignaswhen ZIS deletes some person, his calendars, relationships to groups stay in place18:24
ignasso if you delete john, john disappears from Person list18:24
ignasbut still is in all the groups he was before18:24
wdickersignas: ah-ha, I'm seeing what you meant now ;]18:25
pcardunejelkner: ping18:27
th1aI think we need pcardune to research our options at this point.18:27
wdickersdwelsh: Apparently I'm leaving the 30th. So I can physically be at the sprint the 28th and 29th18:27
th1aResearch and test.18:27
pcarduneI'll get on it starting later this week18:27
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th1aYou'll need to know what we need to do before the sprint.18:28
pcarduneyep :)18:28
th1aSo you know whether you're teaching how to use REST or something else.18:28
pcarduneth1a: are you going to be there also?18:28
th1aI'm afraid not.18:28
pcardunegood to know18:28
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wdickers_sorry guys, I have to leave. I'll read the logs18:29
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ignasby the way - please rename stAgentPackage to something like "agent" please18:30
ignasor zisagent18:30
ignasor something that would make sense in the context of src/schooltool/ content18:30
th1aIt has to be differentiated from other agents as well.18:31
th1aSo something like sifagent isn't good.18:31
ignaswhat agents?18:31
ignaswill schooltool have more agents?18:31
th1aOther applications will have agents.18:31
Lumiereback in a bit, lunch18:31
th1aAnyhow, I think stAgent is fine.18:32
ignasi mean camel cased thing in src/schooltool/ rom src/cando/ is breaking naming conventions18:32
mgedminyay for PEP-818:32
ignaswhy st ? it's in src/schooltool already18:32
ignasso its schooltool.agent18:32
ignasor cando.agent18:32
ignasi am not talking about the name of the application, but about the name of the schooltool part of it18:33
ignasstAgentPackage does not make sense18:33
cpcareyright, because the schooltool package name already distinguishes from other agents18:34
ignasor cando package name (it said cando in the instructions)18:34
tdoggetteBut it's not a cando thing, it's a schooltool thing.18:35
ignasthen put it in schooltool18:35
ignaswhy README says to put it in src/cando ?18:35
tdoggetteit's wdickers' README, but he just left.18:36
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th1aOK, I'm not going to argue the point.18:38
th1aSo... seems like we're running out of gas here.18:46
pcardunehere is my plan18:46
AVN`hey, can I get an assignment?18:46
pcarduneI'm going to head out and get my money back from those Staples thieves18:46
pcarduneAVN`: yes, i'll talk to you in a sec18:47
pcarduneAVN`: or you could talk to eldar to18:47
pcardunethen I'm going to talk to Jason about global competency IDs18:47
pcardunethen I'm going to try to set up schooltool.agent ;) on my local machine18:47
AVN`Eldar, are you here?18:47
pcarduneand maybe spike18:47
pcarduneand see what I can tinker with18:47
pcarduneI'll get back to you guys later today with what I discover if anything.  how does that sound th1a18:48
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th1aFine.  We're basically in your hands, pcardune.18:48
cpcareyi'm going to head out, anything else i should know?18:48
pcarduneth1a: ok18:49
AVN`I don't eldar is at the keyboard18:51
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* th1a getting lunch.18:56
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eldarAVN`: hey what's up19:09
AVN`yeah, I need a job19:09
eldarwhat's your real name?19:09
AVN`Chris Beacham19:09
eldarwhat have you been working on?19:09
AVN`I was working with Filip19:10
eldarwell, i don't know what you can do, you took paul's class, right?19:10
eldardid you have a little project of your own19:11
eldarto test what you learned?19:11
AVN`uh, yes19:11
AVN`I was doing a forum, with filip19:12
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eldarwell, chris, what do you know? html/css, javascript?19:13
AVN`html, not Css or javascript, though I could probally find an online tutorial for CSS or javascript19:14
eldarhmm, since you've been working with filip19:17
eldarwhy don't you work with him on printable form19:18
eldarask him if he doesn't mind19:18
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filip101AVN`: yo19:19
AVN`just the guy I wanted to see19:19
filip101oh great <_<19:19
AVN`lets start working19:20
filip101I'm already working :-P19:20
filip101do you have a cando instance?19:20
filip101do you have gobby?19:20
AVN`i will apt-get19:20
filip101do that19:20
filip101eldar:  how can AVN` procure a working cando07?19:21
AVN`ok, now I have gobbu19:21
filip101ok... let me try to start a gobby server on maddog19:22
AVN`also, what is the address of timeclock again?19:22
filip101connect to using gobby19:23
filip101default port19:23
filip101eldar: are you there?19:24
AVN`he is brb19:24
filip101oh ok19:24
AVN`uh gobby is taking a long time to connect19:26
AVN`default port is 652219:26
filip101are you firewalling?19:26
AVN`it connected now19:26
filip101oh ok19:26
eldarsorry was busy19:37
eldarto produce a working cando19:37
eldarfollow the instructions at
filip101eldar: chris says you're back19:39
filip101are you?19:39
filip101let me reconnect, gaim is being stupid19:40
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Portugalthere we go19:41
Portugalwtf, it changed my username19:41
eldaryeah i am back19:42
AVN`why did it change to Portugal19:42
*** Portugal is now known as filip101_19:42
filip101_i was playing around with Diplomacy stuff19:42
filip101_ok good19:42
filip101_eldar: pcardune forwarded me to you with the printform19:43
eldaroh right19:43
eldarsetting up your own branch19:43
filip101_that's next19:43
filip101_right now i'm working on getting single students to display19:43
eldarok gimme a few minutes to set that up19:43
filip101_um... ok19:44
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eldarcrap, i don't have my private key on me19:47
eldarso i can't login to the server and give you commit access19:47
eldarlet's put that off for later19:47
eldarto answer the question in your email, yea, the pdf should have only a list of students19:48
eldarand grading cells19:48
eldarwith competencies labeled of course19:48
filip101_yes, i did that19:48
eldarvery good19:48
filip101_i removed the macros19:49
filip101_so now i need to get single students displaying instead of the whole crowd19:49
filip101_what i want to do is do some JS magic to make all the other students dissapear when one of them is clicked19:49
eldardid you figure out which page template that is?19:49
filip101_well shouldnt it be the same one?19:49
eldaralright in that list19:49
eldarthe gradebook.py19:49
eldarwhen you click on a student19:49
eldaryou get the view for the studnet19:50
eldarit's a little different19:50
eldaror rather ... very different19:50
filip101_let me check out gradebook.py19:50
filip101_o yea19:50
eldarto find which template it is19:50
eldaryou just go to configure file19:51
eldarand use either the url page name, or the view class name19:51
eldarto search19:51
eldarfor the xml entry19:51
filip101_apparently it's studentgrades.py19:52
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aelknerLumiere: are you really there, or are you just pretending?20:01
eldaralmost everyone is pretending20:03
aelknerYeh, I've noticed that.  I believe in signing off when I leave my computer.20:04
eldarwell, this irc thing has sort of become like a leave a message system20:04
eldaryou leave a message and stay hoping that someone will answer20:04
eldarand you stay on just to answer those messages when you have tinme20:04
aelknerI guess so.20:05
aelknerI was here at noon and there wasn't a meeting.  What gives?20:05
pcarduneread the logs, and you will know why20:05
pcardunewe spent the entire morning meeting about ZIS/SIF stuff20:06
pcarduneMost folks were totally meeting'd out20:06
filip101_eldar: sorry to break in, but isnt there already a printable student report?20:06
pcarduneaelkner: oh btw, I made some bug fixes to journals, so you'll want to do a merge from trunk20:06
Lumierejust back from lunch20:06
eldaryeah, there is an already printable student report20:07
eldarfilip101_: but that one serves a different purpose20:07
eldarit is for official use20:07
eldarwhat you are working on is just a gradesheet to print out20:07
filip101_so you want one that the teachers would just use to print to show the students to tell them what to do and not to do?20:07
eldarso people don't have to go to a computer every time they grade20:07
aelknerpcarduner: will do.20:07
filip101_oooh, so something to just print out and write on...20:08
filip101_that works20:08
pcardunefilip101_: the kind of thing you put on a clipboard20:08
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eldarsort of, teachers want to print the gradesheet20:08
eldarput it on a clipboard20:08
eldarand carry it around with them20:08
eldarthat's why we want it really simple20:08
pcardunethink of tracking competencies in a automobile mechanics class20:08
AVN`lol, wrong window20:08
pcarduneeldar: are you experience lag?20:08
filip101_di c20:09
filip101_*i c20:09
filip101_what kind of info should there be on the sheet?20:09
filip101_competency id, grade, evidence...?20:09
Lumiereaelkner: yes?20:10
aelknerNever mind.  I was wondering about the meeting.  Paul told me it was canceled.20:11
Lumiereeveryone was around yesterday and talked20:11
aelknerI'll read the logs.20:11
pcardunefilip101_: i think eldar is experiencing lag :)20:12
pcardunethere should be:20:12
pcardunecompetency id, grade20:12
pcarduneand competency title20:12
pcardunefilip101_: which form is this for?20:12
eldaroh sorry hahaha20:13
eldari am working on the trunk20:13
filip101_this is for the individual student20:13
AVN` and overall grade?20:14
filip101_overall grade is a whole diff thing20:14
filip101_actually there shouldnt be an overall grade, as these are competencies, not grades20:15
AVN`average competiancie then?20:15
filip101_i believe eldar told me not to worry about that on satuday20:16
eldardon't have to put statistics20:16
eldaron the gradesheet that people are gonna use to carry around and record grades20:16
AVN`if there are like 400 different competnecies in a class, the student might want to know in general how well s/he's doing20:16
filip101_this isnt for the student20:16
filip101_this is for the teacer20:16
AVN`oh, ok20:17
AVN`i got confused20:17
eldarunless we are told otherwise, at least that's my assumption20:17
AVN`<filip101_> this is for the individual student20:17
eldarpcardune: what's your take on this?20:17
eldarLumiere: want to clarify this for us?20:17
pcardunefor the teacher20:17
filip101_gr, what i meant is there's a sheet for each student and the teacher uses it to take notes on that student20:17
AVN`ok, ok20:17
filip101_(why can't i ever be straight-forward?)20:17
AVN`i get it20:18
AVN`I thought you meant like a sheet for the student to look at and see how well he is doing20:18
eldarno, this is for the teacher20:18
filip101_no, that's the grade report, and there's already one20:18
eldarto record grades20:18
pcardunefilip101_: because programmers like to be tricksy20:18
filip101_lol, i know that feeling ;)20:18
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pcarduneLumiere: are you ready to talk about global IDs?20:21
Lumierethe printout sheet should be for a single comp-group20:21
Lumiereand shouldn't contain any summary data20:21
Lumiereit should just be the list of comps20:21
Lumiereand the current grades20:21
filip101_that's simple!20:22
Lumierethere should be space next to the current grade20:22
filip101_so just another empty column in the table20:23
Lumiereor even just put a pair of &nbsp;20:23
filip101_btw, i've always been wondering what the special symbol (like &nbsp;) for a tab is20:23
Lumierethere isn't one20:24
filip101_ok then20:24
filip101_a bunch of &nbsp; it is20:24
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pcarduneLumiere: ping pong20:24
Lumierejelkner is here20:25
pcardunehe is?20:25
eldarfilip101_: don't use nbsp20:25
pcarduneuse css20:25
eldaryeah, besides20:25
Lumierecss can do it too20:25
eldarif there is a grade in a cell20:25
eldaryou're going to have to widen the entire column20:25
Lumiereeldar: there needs to be space next to the grade20:25
eldarand putting nbsps20:26
eldarin every cell in the column20:26
eldaris ugly20:26
* Lumiere agrees20:26
eldarjust check if there is a grade in a column20:26
eldarand if there is20:26
Lumierepcardune: I have gobby up on maddog:6128 for the xml xsd20:26
eldarwiden the column20:26
eldarand do align left/right20:26
eldarfor the grade20:26
eldarso that there is room for the new one20:26
filip101_oh ok20:26
filip101_yeah, i was about to ask about that20:27
filip101_the table for the competencies expands to fill the horizontal space 100%20:30
filip101_is that all right or do i need to shrink it?20:30
pcarduneLumiere: shall we skype?20:31
Lumierethere's another conversation going in here20:31
Lumiereskype would just make it too wierd20:31
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filip101_i'd be glad to be quiet if u want to use the channel :)20:32
eldarthey can PM20:32
Lumierewe are on gobby for it20:32
filip101_oh ok20:32
eldarwhat do you mean 100%/20:32
eldarlike what would be the entire page?20:32
filip101_like it stretches to fill the whole width20:32
filip101_half of it is the first column, the competency name, and half is the grade20:33
eldarLumiere: how do you want the single student gradesheet to look?20:33
Lumiereeldar: there shouldn't be a single student grade shet20:33
filip101_did i just get pwned?20:33
eldari think so20:34
Lumierego for skill drivers20:34
Lumiereand comp groups20:34
eldarlook at the spec20:34
eldarall you have to do is competency group20:34
eldarand skill driver20:34
eldarquarterly grading isn't implemented yet20:34
eldarso that's for later20:34
Lumierequarterly grading is very similar to skill driver20:35
filip101_darn, so the past.. 45 mins has been wasted :(20:35
filip101_what's the skill driver?20:35
Lumierepcardune: what's the branch on skill driver20:35
eldari haven't made one because my private key20:35
eldaris somewhere else, i have to give filip acess20:36
eldaraccess* to in order to have it be any use20:36
pcarduneLumiere: trunk20:36
filip101_so for now i'm locked up?20:36
eldarwhat do you mean locked up?20:36
eldaryou can work on your own machine20:36
filip101_i'm just confused, what is a skill driver?20:36
eldarthen on thursday i'll give you a branch20:36
filip101_oh ok20:36
pcarduneeldar: I can add him20:37
eldarhaha thanks20:37
pcarduneI just have to remember how to do it20:37
pcardunethat is the hardest part really20:37
filip101_i'm still confused as to what i need to do20:38
filip101_what is a skill driver so i can sort stuff by it?20:38
pcardunefilip101_: you username is going to be filip20:38
pcarduneor actually, it will be fsufitchi20:38
filip101_i prefer fsufitch20:38
filip101_8 letter :)20:38
pcarduneor yeah, that is better20:38
filip101_that, and many people know me as fsufitch rather than filip20:39
Lumierefilip101_: /nick fsufitch then XD20:39
*** filip101_ is now known as fsufitch20:39
pcardunefsufitch: i pmed your password20:40
pcarduneyou should now have access20:40
eldarin your SchoolTool/src/cando folder20:41
fsufitchi'm there20:41
fsufitchwait, so i should copy everything i've done to there?20:42
eldarno i'm just showing you20:42
eldarhow to make your checkout20:42
eldara developer checkout20:42
eldarso you can commit20:42
fsufitchoh ok20:42
eldarright now your checkout is anonymous20:42
eldarsvn switch --relocate
eldaruse that command20:43
eldarnow you have commit accessssssssssss20:45
eldarto create a branch20:46
eldaryou do20:47
eldarsvn copy -m "Creating a branch for printable forms spec"20:48
eldarjust look up how to make svn branches on google20:48
eldartake a few minutes to learn svn20:49
fsufitchCommitted revision 803. ^_^20:50
fsufitchwhat's svn blame20:50
fsufitchit looks fun to use :)20:50
eldarwhat you do now20:51
eldaris go somewhere to your home directory20:51
eldarand checkout your branch20:51
fsufitchsvn co what?20:52
fsufitch   ???20:52
eldarsvn co mybranch-orwhateveryounamethe folder20:52
eldaryou're replacing username with fsufitch right?20:52
fsufitch>_> i swear my username is "username"20:53
fsufitchok, so i did that20:54
fsufitchthen i run make in the branch folder?20:54
fsufitchi just saw a makefile20:54
fsufitchso i immediately thought make20:54
fsufitchit seems to be sort of stuck on an egg20:56
eldarit's alright20:56
eldarthe server20:56
eldarprolly is taking its time20:56
eldarit'll be done eventually20:56
fsufitchoh ok, it's unstuck20:56
fsufitchpcardune: you have a really nice site at carduner.net20:57
pcardunefsufitch: thanks, it's a zope3 app20:58
pcardunesurprise surprise20:58
fsufitchi noticed it looked like one :)20:58
fsufitchreally beautified20:58
fsufitchalthough whenever someone says zope and its looks i think the ZMI automatically20:58
fsufitchwhich is sort of bad20:59
eldarhis site's comment section20:59
eldaris hammered20:59
eldarby bots20:59
eldari just noticed that20:59
pcardune... haven't gotten to that yet21:00
fsufitchjust make any comments with anchor tags get killed21:00
eldarlol just put a single stupid captcha21:00
eldarthat's not even a captcha21:00
eldarmost of them aren't good enough21:01
eldarto answer radio fields21:01
eldarput in a question21:01
eldar"Are you human?"21:01
pcardunethat would be good21:01
fsufitchlol yes21:01
eldarthe bots that attack your site won't handle that21:01
fsufitchmy branch is finally done making21:02
fsufitchwill it always take this long?21:02
fsufitchor longer and longer as the app grows? ;)21:02
pcardunefsufitch: it takes that long because of dependencies21:03
fsufitchso, since the dependencies would already be there next time, it won't take so long?21:04
eldarit's just the first time21:04
eldarwhen it downloads the sources and eggs21:04
fsufitchi c21:04
fsufitchgood :)21:04
eldarnow you can just move your stuff21:05
eldardon't move folders though21:05
eldaronly files21:05
eldarfolders have .svns in them21:05
eldarso copying them might mess things up21:05
pcarduneyou chose not to just do a svn switch --relocate?21:06
eldari wanted him to checkout his branch21:06
eldarit's a good feeling21:06
eldarand he'll know the url21:06
eldarand how to do it in the future21:06
pcardunestagent is a lot of work to get running21:06
pcarduneeldar: ok sounds good21:07
pcarduneit is a good feeling :)21:07
fsufitchit dies when i try to run it21:09
eldarwhat does it say21:09
fsufitchi'll paste it to lisppaste21:09
* pcardune thinks about taking a nap21:09
Lumierepcardune: you should try not to21:09
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Lumierethe jetlag will be worse21:09
pcardunedon't worry, i'll set an alarm21:10
eldargo get some sleep21:10
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lisppaste5fsufitch pasted "error" at
eldarit says address already in use21:12
eldarshut your other instance down21:12
eldaror put in a new port for this one21:12
eldarto configure a new port for this instance edit the file21:13
fsufitchit doesn't matter21:13
eldarand file a line that has 7080 in it21:13
fsufitchi shut down the other one21:13
fsufitchyes, i remember21:13
fsufitchit was one of the first things i asked about the instance ;)21:13
* pcardune goes to take a nap before he starts committing broken code left and right and making generally poor life decisions21:13
eldarhave a good power nap21:14
fsufitchi wish i could21:14
fsufitchah well21:15
fsufitchis there some way to grab the old classes, students etc from the old cando instance?21:15
fsufitchcuz i dont particularly feel like making them all again21:15
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eldarscrew napping, i'm going to go play basketball in a few hours21:15
eldarin SchoolTool folder21:15
eldarthere is21:15
Lumiereshut down the new instance before copying21:16
eldarcopy the one from the old one21:16
fsufitchthx, Lumiere21:16
fsufitchthat was close :)21:16
eldarhahaha, Lumiere is speaking from experience21:16
Lumierethe behaviour is undefined otherwise ;)21:16
Lumiereeldar: yea but usually21:16
Lumiereit's me trying to copy from a running instance21:16
eldarwasn't it dwelsh who did that first21:17
Lumiereoh yes21:17
Lumierebut trying to back up a zodb21:17
Lumiereis a pain21:17
Lumierethey need to make a program that can back up a zodb at runtime21:17
eldaris going down for maintenance that bad?21:17
Lumiereit can be21:18
fsufitcheldar: what about Data.fs.index?21:18
eldarwell then21:18
fsufitchdoesn't matter?21:18
eldarkeep a mirrored21:18
eldarif you're that concerned21:18
Lumierestill not enough backup21:18
LumiereI'm as SysAdmin...21:18
eldardon't worry about the index21:18
eldarit's trivial21:18
Lumiereand is rebuilt21:18
Lumiereas needed21:18
eldarit's only crucial when you actually indexed your db21:19
eldaryou didn't so it's alright21:19
fsufitchwhat _is_ indexing a db?21:19
Lumiereit's a search optimization21:20
fsufitchi c21:20
fsufitchthat's all right, i'm never searching for anything21:20
Lumierezope generates it as needed21:20
fsufitchso now that i have this up, what is a skill driver, so i know how to print the competency gradebook by skill drivers?21:21
Lumierewell I wish pcardune were around :)21:21
Lumiereskill driver is a new feature for cando0721:21
Lumierewhere a teacher has a lesson who's purpose is to help students aquire skills21:22
fsufitchso the skill driver is a lesson?21:22
Lumierecando will have a view (like comp-gradebook)21:22
Lumierebut that only has the competencies related to the lesson21:22
LumiereI expect that the printout for that will be used most often21:22
fsufitchi c21:23
fsufitchso how do i add a new skill driver?21:23
eldarskilldrivers aren't completely finished21:23
Lumiereeldar: pcardune says they're ready for teacher testing21:23
fsufitch... then how do i use them?21:23
eldaryou might wanna play around with them, but don't hope anything you write will stick21:23
Lumierefsufitch: from the actions menu of a section21:23
Lumiereshould have a menu item skill drivers21:23
LumiereI think21:24
eldaryou can look at the skilldriver module itself21:24
eldarto see where it adds menu21:24
eldaritems and stuff21:24
fsufitchi navigated to the skill driver section21:24
fsufitchbut there's no way to add a new one21:24
eldarit's not under actions?21:24
fsufitchthere _are_ no actions21:24
eldaryou have competencies in that section, right?21:25
eldarhmm iono, i didn't write skilldrivers and don't really know how they work21:25
eldaryou can look21:25
eldarat the browser tests21:25
eldargo to browser/README.txt21:25
eldarto see what's up21:25
Lumierefsufitch: you may be stuck waiting for pcardune too21:25
eldarand hope pcardune actually wrote them21:25
Lumiereat least on skill drivers21:26
fsufitchmaybe some voodoo person wrote them >_>21:26
Lumierefsufitch: or pcardune wrote them while dead tired21:26
fsufitchthe otehr stuff is quarterly groups21:26
fsufitchwhich i hear don't even exist yet21:26
eldarLumiere: oh i know tests are a mess, it's because Batching was changed in schooltool21:26
eldarand I'm not done changing the bazillion entries21:26
eldarwe have using the old batching21:26
eldaryea, are you already done with competency group forms?21:27
fsufitchshould i send u a pdf with the look of it?21:27
eldarhmmm, you might need to learn21:28
eldarhow to generate pdfs21:28
eldarin zope321:28
eldarthere is a module for that21:28
fsufitchor i could just use firefox :D21:28
eldariono, the clients might want it21:28
eldarwe'll see21:28
Lumierestart with printable css21:29
Lumierebut yes, someone needs to learn reportlab21:29
th1aIt isn't so much learning pdfs in Zope 3 as pdfs in Python (ReportLab).21:29
th1aAlthough there is a Zope 3 module called pdftemplate that lets you use XML to lay out the templates.21:30
th1aI've actually used it.21:30
fsufitcheldar: i've sent you the file21:31
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eldarthank you21:31
fsufitchbtw, there's nothing about skill drivers in README.txt]21:32
fsufitchat least not in the one in browser/21:32
fsufitchnope, not even in the other one21:33
fsufitchso whoever coded it hated auto-testing :)21:33
fsufitchsomebody's in denial21:34
fsufitchso i have to wait for pcardune to come back on?21:35
Lumiereseems so21:38
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pcardunewhy is it that you can feel so tired yet be totally unable to sleep?21:41
eldarnot tired enough21:41
AVN`too many thoughts21:43
fsufitchyou're back!21:44
fsufitchso, pcardune, what is a skill driver and how does one use it?21:46
pcardunedo you have a cando instance running?21:47
pcardunego to a section21:47
pcarduneclick on competencies21:47
pcarduneadd some competenceis21:47
pcardunethen go back to the section21:47
pcarduneclick on skill drivers21:47
pcarduneplay around :)21:47
pcardunein short: they are a different way of organizing competencies into specific tasks21:48
pcardunefor example, you might give students an assignment and that assignment satisfies 5 competencies21:48
fsufitchi c21:48
pcarduneso you create a skill driver for the assignment and link those 5 competencies21:48
pcardunethen you can look at grading of just those 5... even if they are from different competency groups.21:49
fsufitchthere is no way to add a skill driver though21:49
fsufitchthere is no "actions" menu when i go to skilldrivers21:49
fsufitchagh, i'm done working for today21:53
pcarduneoh, in that case try going to course level21:53
fsufitchcourse level?21:53
pcardunethe course for the section21:53
fsufitchi see21:54
fsufitchnow i g2g21:55
fsufitchi'll work on that next time21:55
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pcardunegood thing I couldn't fall asleep, my alarm was set to vibrate...22:06
AVN`i wonder how Filip missed the new skill driver button ...22:09
pcarduneAVN`: good question22:12
AVN`I found a bug22:30
LumiereAVN`: just so you know is integrated to this room22:31
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (15:30 EET) | Use for pasting | CanDo dev meeting 10:30 Eastern/15:30 UTC"22:31
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