IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-06-18

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pcarduneLumiere: when is the schooltool dev meeting?15:45
pcarduneignas: what is the schooltool dev meeting?15:50
ignasin 40 minutes or so i think15:50
Lumieremorning all16:04
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th1aignas: Hi.16:12
jfrocheHello Tom !16:15
th1aHi Jean-Francois.16:15
th1aignas: Is the hotel booked up for EuroPython?16:15
ignasno idea16:15
th1aI just realized I hadn't booked our rooms.16:15
ignasour sprint wiki page is not very informative16:16
th1aWell, that's something we can talk about today.16:16
jfrochesome people from the outside showed interest in the schooltool sprint ?16:16
th1aI haven't considered it much of a possibility.16:17
th1aAh.  Tobias will be disappointed.16:20
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Lumiere'morning eldar16:22
eldargood morning16:23
Crippsis the schooltool dev meeting held in here?16:23
Lumierein about 5 minutes Cripps16:24
Crippscool. do you mind spectators? ;)16:24
th1aNot at all.16:24
Lumierewelcome to the party16:24
Crippssweet. I like parties ... especially when they involve talk about code ;) ... that's why nobody comes to my parties :P16:25
jfrochein the scoresystems, we have a RangedValuesScoreSystem , why _minPassingScore and not minPassingScore ? I had to create a new scoresystem + interfaces,  to be able to change this attribute from a view ...16:29
th1ajfroche:  You'd have to ask Stephan...16:30
jfrocheoh i thought it was pcardune16:31
th1aOh... well I don't know who did what.16:31
th1aBut Stephan wrote most of it.16:31
th1aWhich means you can change it whoever you want.16:31
th1aOK... let's get started.16:31
th1aWhat have you been up to jfroche?16:32
jfrocheworked on view, began the report html & look at pdf16:32
jfrochegot news from the school16:32
jfrochebut until next week they are busy with the deliberations16:33
jfrochei meet nicolas tomorrow and friday16:33
jfrochei need to show him how to translate things16:33
th1aHave you looked at pdftemplate or are you planning on using ReportLab?16:34
jfrochei am using reportlab16:34
jfrochei know if quite well16:34
th1aOK.  Good.16:34
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* Lumiere hands th1a some papers to shuffle16:34
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Lumierehi pcardune16:35
jfrochebut i don't know pdftemplate16:35
pcardune_I woke up at dawn this morning, so I'm able to attend :)16:35
Lumierepcardune_: eldar's here too16:35
th1ajfroche: If you know ReportLab that's fine.16:36
th1apdftemplate allows you to use XML markup.16:36
th1aIt is something I'd like to integrate *someday*.16:36
th1aBut right now it is just another dependency, which is best avoided if not strictly needed.16:37
th1apcardune_: Which part of the world are you in?16:37
pcardune_eastern washington state now16:37
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th1ajfroche: Anything else?16:39
jfrocheeuh about Europython, i ll need to leave on the 13 evening16:39
*** Lumiere changes topic to "SchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (15:30 EET) | Use for pasting | CanDo dev meeting Tuesday 1600 UTC/Noon Eastern (Last week before we move to Monday 10:30 Eastern)"16:40
jfrochewhen are you arriving there ?16:40
th1ajfroche: Can you register yourself for EuroPython & invoice me?16:41
th1aI am arriving the 8th.16:41
jfrocheok will do the same then16:41
jfrocheno problem16:41
th1apcardune_: I'll register you.16:42
th1aOK... ignas?16:42
ignasi have written some code for schoolyear migration, and this morning i met with Bronius Skūpas to find out how should Attendance reports work16:43
ignasand straighten out some tricky journal usage cases16:43
ignas2 sections comming to the same meeting or something like that16:43
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ignasas he suggested a very nice way of implementing the attendance overview i think i'll try to implement it16:44
Lumierewb * 3 pcardune_16:44
pcardune__(using some randon wifi16:44
ignasthat's kind of everything i did, the school year switch is a quite difficult topic16:45
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th1aI'm happy to hear you're at the point of writing some code for it.16:45
Lumierewe had a sprint, which I'll let pcardune discuss since he's here16:46
th1aOh... right.16:46
Lumiereand our weekly meetings start thursday16:47
th1aMy phone didn't ring, so I guess there wasn't a disaster.16:47
Lumiereeldar, if you have anything to add you're welcome to pop in16:47
eldarwithout zpkg cando doesn't build properly anymore :(16:47
Lumiereth1a: there are some lingering problems with the change over from zpkg to eggs for cando trunk, but it'll get solved16:47
th1aYes, it has been a nasty transition.16:48
pcardunewe came across more build problems16:49
th1aI'm not sure it could be done much better, considering everything underneath us was shifting at the same time.16:49
pcardunethe eggs-redux merege broke our checkouts16:49
pcardunewe are in serious need of a builtbot16:50
th1aDo you know what the problems are?16:50
pcardunethat is priority #1 for us this week16:50
Lumierethe cando zcml slugs aren't written during the process16:50
LumiereI either need to get a buildbot up locally16:50
ignaswell - yes, because schooltool and schooltool-lyceum are using fixed site.zcmls16:50
ignasyou should do that too at the moment16:51
Lumiereor I need to talk with jinty about getting a cando buildbot running16:51
ignasbuildbot identifies problems, not solves them ;)16:51
Lumierebut buildbot would have given us a couple weeks to fix it before the sprint16:51
th1aignas: By "fixed site.zcmls" do you mean "corrected" or "static?"16:52
ignasth1a: static16:52
th1aIs that something that will have to be fixed eventually?16:52
th1aOr is that a permanent solution?16:53
ignaspermanent i16:53
ignasi'd say16:53
ignasnot sure about how it will be in a debian package though16:53
Lumiereit would have to be done by post-install scripting16:54
ignasno not that, i am talking about the static/dynamic balance16:54
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* pcardune wonders if anyone can see this (internet has been shaky here)16:55
Lumierewe can16:55
th1apcardune: Still see you.16:55
th1aignas: Anything else?16:56
th1apcardune: Anything else?16:56
ignasth1a: no not really16:56
th1aHopefully you got something done at the sprint other than identifying build problems.16:56
Lumierepcardune and I got some procedural stuff written16:57
eldaroh yeah, we got stuff done, started working on the new specifications, kept working on the already existing ones16:58
LumiereI am in Vermont Thursday - Monday this week16:58
Lumiereso I'll be missing next weeks meeting16:59
th1aThe interns will be meeting every Thursday?16:59
LumiereTuesday and Thursday 1-6pm Eastern16:59
th1aFace to face?17:00
th1aOK.  Cool.17:00
Lumierethey're also required to complete 10 hours outside that17:00
Lumiere(20 a week total)17:00
th1aAnything else from CanDo-Land?17:01
Lumierenot that I can think of, pcardune or eldar?17:01
eldarnothing comes to my mind ...17:02
* pcardune experiences much lag17:02
* pcardune is going home soon to get on a real network17:03
th1aOK.  I've been getting ready to spend three of the next four weeks traveling, so I haven't been terribly productive otherwise I'm afraid.17:04
th1aOK -- let's talk EuroPython.17:04
th1aSo the main goal is packaging and preparing a Gutsy release.17:05
th1aI'd like to spend some time making sure we've pared out unnecessary obselete stuff that doesn't work.17:06
LumiereI'd like to make sure that it gets removed from svn if it won't be coming back17:07
th1aAnd made the initial user experience generally pleasant.17:07
Lumiereso, we don't care about user experience after they get started? ;)17:07
th1aWell, for people trying this out on their Ubuntu boxes, just the first 10 seconds make a big difference.17:08
th1a1) sudo apt-get install schooltool;17:08
th1a2) "wtf?"17:08
th1a3) sudo apt-get remove schooltool.17:08
ignasisn't schooltool release only being made because CanDo needs it to make their release?17:09
th1aNot really.  It is to get back into the flow with Ubuntu as well.17:09
ignasi mean - my idea was that we are not trying to encourage users to use the schooltool we will release this summer17:10
ignasnot making it difficult, but not giving too much hopes either17:10
th1aYes.  And getting these packaging issues more or less cleared up in the Gutsy process so Gutsy+1 won't be a disaster.17:11
ignasso what are the packaging issues17:11
th1aWell, jinty has created a ton of packages for our dependencies, so that is/was one.17:12
ignasone of them is - how to make schooltool and cando install in parallel easily17:12
ignasor at least how to switch among them17:12
th1aFrankly, we can punt that if necessary.  CanDo's schedule pretty much requires them to distribute CanDo internally as a big lump.17:13
th1aWe can decide if we're going to do that correctly in Gutsy or Gutsy+1.17:13
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th1aI don't have strong feelings either way.17:13
ignasit depends on how many other problems there are17:14
th1aThat's what we're trying to determine ;-)17:14
ignaswill we have gradebook ready for july?17:14
th1aWill you?  jfroche?17:15
jfrocheit will depend what will be the reaction to the last developpement at the school17:15
jfrochebut it just can be better than what they have now17:16
th1aI would be ok with putting it in and labeling it as "Gradebook - beta" in the release.17:16
ignaspeople don't read release notes...17:16
th1aSince we're in Web 2.0, that sort of thing is socially acceptable.17:16
th1aNo, I mean, in the code.17:16
th1aThe links themselves.17:16
pcardune_ignas: in the user interface17:16
pcardune_that would be awesome... it sounds so new age to have "beta" in the interface17:16
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th1aHalf the web applications people use say "beta."17:17
pcardune_so true17:17
pcardune_hi jelkner17:17
th1ahi jelkner.17:17
Crippsif it's "beta" people will be more apt to use it because they like the sound of being on the "cutting edge"17:17
jelknergood morning!17:17
th1aignas would probably prefer "alpha."17:18
Crippssounds *too* new ;)17:18
Lumiereyou guys are having too much fun with this now...17:18
ignasth1a: i would prefer rather not releasing a gradebook, than not knowing how to answer the "Does schooltool do gradebook?" question17:18
th1aAnyhow... I guess another question is whether this release will use the drop down menus, which I think it should.17:18
ignasit will17:18
ignasit's in trunk17:18
Lumiereit's been in trunk since resource management landed17:19
th1aOh, it is just not in the Lyceum branch?17:19
Lumiereit is in the lyceum branch because it is in trunk17:19
Lumiereand ignas merged trunk into lyceum17:19
Lumiere(I read too much of the commits list)17:20
th1aI missed that.17:20
th1aI thought ignas was holding out.17:20
th1aThe other big thing I've thought about for EP is making sure jfroche and pcardune get up to speed on the schoolyear transition, since that's complex.17:20
Lumierefrom a cando perspective I would definately like to see that17:21
th1aIt is rather essential.17:21
ignasth1a: depends on how complete the code will be17:21
ignasand as i have that task more or less spanning whole quarter ...17:21
th1aWell, whatever we've got.  I realize it won't be done.17:21
th1aAt least explaining the strategy.17:22
ignasand i will have to work out on some rough edges before release17:22
pcardune_for the entire school year, it might be nice to have a namespace (localhost/++schoolyear++1995/any/url/in/schooltool)17:22
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LumiereI just know that that cando will need schoolyear backup sooner rather then later17:22
Lumierefor now we're looking at making an export function to create an xml output to save a section of a course17:23
ignasa good idea17:24
th1aSo... what do we need to think about in more detail to prepare for EuroPython?17:24
ignasone of the cheap way out alternatives is exporting data you need17:24
ignasand importing it into a new instance of schooltool17:24
ignasth1a: only jinty actually knows what is blocking him from the packaging side17:24
ignasas for the schooltool polishing17:24
ignasi have a long list of debts :/17:25
jintyignas: zope.optionstorage and pcardune's javascript17:25
th1ahi jinty.17:25
pcardune_I can handle pcardune's javascript this week17:25
th1aYes, is there anything else we need to do for you?17:26
ignasone of the debts is the timetabling transition to events, i need functional tests that would test term deletion, school timetable deletion17:26
ignasnew views that would allow booking of resources for timetable activities17:26
ignaswith tests are important17:26
ignasfor a solid release17:26
ignasi18n is flaky in some places17:26
Lumiereignas: if you can produce a list of things you want tested I can try and write a ftest for it17:26
ignasas in it's not 100% complete17:27
th1aOK, how about this then:17:27
Lumiereit won't be perfect but maybe it will give you a chance to finish some other stuff17:27
Lumierepcardune_: LP 111864 just got marked needs info by whaddon17:27
jintyother than that, most eggs are not including the ZPL text and so will probably be rejected from ubuntu/debian, need to make new versions of all of those.17:28
th1aAnything blocking packaging, identified by jinty, gets first priority.17:28
th1aSecond, I'll take a look at trunk and identify what I'd like to see cut and cleaned up.  I'll keep it minimal.17:29
th1aThird, whatever is on ignas's list.17:29
Lumierejinty: any chance I could get a buildbot setup for cando too?17:29
th1aPlus discussing yearend transitions at some point.17:29
jintyLumiere, sure, you got a buildslave for me?17:29
Lumieremaybe :)17:30
Lumierecan the slave be behind a firewall?17:30
LumiereI have an ubuntu-dapper server that is under-utilizied17:31
* jinty doesn't have very much buidbot-fu, but I think the slave connects to the master17:31
jintyso behind a firewall is probably fine17:31
th1aignas: Does that sound acceptable?17:32
LumiereI'll see what I can do from work17:32
jintyLumiere, send me a mail about it17:32
ignassound good enough, i'll try to come up with a "someone else readable" list of improvements17:32
th1aignas: OK.17:32
th1aAll right.  Have a good week folks!17:33
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:33
* Lumiere screams in agony when it lands on his foot17:33
pcardune_Lumiere: are we having a cando meeting today or tomorrow?17:35
LumiereSchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (15:30 EET) | Use for pasting | CanDo dev meeting Tuesday 1600 UTC/Noon Eastern (Last week before we move to Monday 10:30 Eastern)17:36
Lumierebut had I know that jelkner, you, and eldar were going to be here17:36
LumiereI'd have dragged welsh on17:37
Lumierebut I gotta go now17:37
Lumiereto have a chance at getting to work before 11:3017:37
eldarignas, in the new Batch, is `formatter` a new type of object that i have to define and can look at guidelines for, or is it just some sort of a modified list/dictionary?17:54
ignaseldar: not sure which formatter you are talking about17:55
ignascan you give the file ant the line in question17:55
eldarin table.batch17:56, line 3817:56
ignasyou should use IterableBatch17:56
ignasformatter is the table formatter, when batching is used with a TableFormatter table17:56
eldaralright, in IterableBatch, the items argument is supposed to be a dict?18:01
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eldarignas: what type of datastructure is `items` supposed to be in IterableBatch?18:07
ignaslist or iterable iirc18:07
ignasthe same as was for the old Batch thingie18:07
eldarhmmm, any reason why this is happening then?18:07
eldarFile "/home/eldar/cando/SchoolTool/src/schooltool/table/", line 128, in key18:07
eldar  return getattr(obj, sort_by)18:07
eldarTypeError: getattr(): attribute name must be string18:07
ignashmm, what are you passing to it as a sort_by?18:08
ignasthen it's a bug18:08
ignasadd a check for None in the sort_by18:08
ignasit was 'title' by default, but now it's none18:08
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pcardune_eldar: you should use if sort_by is not None18:30
eldarooops lol, reversed it in a hurry18:31
eldarwait, why not not None?18:31
pcardune_or, if sort_by is None18:31
pcardune_just be explicit about what sort_by is18:31
eldaroh ok18:32
pcardune_otherwise you don't know that sort_by will necessarily evaluate to True or False18:32
pcardune_if it is None, it will evaluate to False, but that is not the *only* case where it will evaluate to False18:32
eldarhow do you reload the file in emacs if it was changed on the disk?18:32
eldarwithout you know, closing and opening again18:33
eldaro.O i'm getting traversal errors now18:35
jelknerpcardune, eldar: i'm on the phone with dwelsh now18:48
jelknerhe wants to meet now18:48
jelknerwith the following agenda:18:48
jelknerplan for summer sprints18:48
jelknerwhat gets done when?18:48
jelknercan we meet now?18:48
jelknereldar: good18:51
jelknerdwelsh is walking in the door at ACC and will join us presently18:51
mgedminwhat's up with schooltool's buildbot?18:51
mgedmin"error: Installed distribution 3.4dev-r74795 conflicts with requirement>=3.4.0a2"18:51
mgedminlast successful build was 12 days ago18:52
jelknereldar: have you had a chance to look at all the specs on launchpad?18:52
eldarjelkner, no not yet, i've been working on fixing cando trunk since the last schooltool commits18:53
jelkneri told welsh you and paul were focusing on getting the thing to build18:53
jelknerand while it is essential to do that, it is equally important that we have a plan18:54
jelknerfor the summer work18:54
eldaryeah, it is now more than just slugs, it is a bunch of changes in random places that our code needs to update to18:54
eldaryeah sure, we can plan18:54
jelknerdave feels it will take a few days and more than one meeting to do that18:54
jelknerso he wants to start now18:55
eldaralright, pcardune_ are you there?18:55
jelkneri assume he'll be on in any minute18:55
pcardune_I'm just now reading what you have been saying18:55
pcardune_did you ping me earlier?18:55
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dwelshWelsh here18:55
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eldarhe pinged you without the underscore, so you didn't get it18:55
dwelshwelcome back, paul18:56
jelknerdwelsh: i asked eldar if he was familiar with  the launchpad blueprints, and he told me he is not18:56
eldarnot all of them18:56
jelknerpcardune has been having him work on on other things18:56
jelknerso lets start to draw up  a plan18:57
dwelshwe need a framework that covers all three multi-day sprints18:57
dwelshand factors in developer learning curves18:57
jelknerto produce realistic goals for each one18:57
dwelshusing the CanDo07 blueprints that are posted18:57
jelknerdwelsh: what is the highest priority?18:58
pcarduneDo we all agree that new features and not bugs will be the main focus of these sprints?18:58
dwelshlook at Launchpad... everything is ranked according to priority18:58
* jelkner goes to look at launchpad18:59
dwelshits starts with essential, then goes high, med and low18:59
pcarduneskill drivers18:59
eldarbugs are not listed in blueprints, which is why pcardune is posing the question18:59
dwelsh2 essential, 3 high, 5 med, 2 low18:59
Lumierepcardune: blocking bugs in 07 are a focus of the sprints too18:59
dwelshand skill driver18:59
pcardunejournal update notification18:59
pcardunequarterly grades18:59
dwelshthen student evidence19:00
dwelshthat's 5, let's start there19:00
dwelshZIS-SIF is underway19:00
dwelshthat's basically import-export19:00
pcarduneah, ok great19:00
Lumierebugs that don't block development should be left off sprints unless we need it for the development at the sprint19:00
dwelshthe demo is scheduled for tomorrow, 10am19:00
dwelshonce we understand the demo, we need to move forward handling the specific SIF msgs. needed19:01
* pcardune updates status19:01
jelkneri think a plan for the whole summer is fine19:01
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jelknerbut what we *really* need now is a plan for the upcoming sprint19:01
Lumierejelkner: that's the point...19:02
Lumierebut the second sprint19:02
Lumierecomes right after the first19:02
dwelshPaul, how much more on Skill-Driver, and can anyone help you with it?19:02
Lumiereso we need both for sure19:02
jelknerand there are different players involved19:02
pcardunedwelsh: skill drivers are ready for testing by you and other teachers19:02
jelknerso we need to think about that19:02
dwelshit's just like the French Open and Wimbledon19:02
dwelshthey're virtually back-to-back:)19:02
pcarduneI imagine there will be some UI requests19:02
jelkneri'm on launchpad and i see all the blueprints19:03
LumiereI am thinking that the ACC sprint should be Import / Export19:03
pcardunecan I assign Will Dickerson to import/export19:03
jelknerso: what gets done during those 4 days at ACC?19:03
jelknerand by whom?19:03
pcarduneI agree with Lumiere19:03
jelknerwill dickerson will not be available during the summer19:04
jelknerchris carey is taking over for him19:04
pcarduneoh right, slipped my mind19:04
jelknerboth of them say they are ready for the transition19:04
Lumiereit's the first step toward almost everything else19:04
pcarduneI think Import/Export for the ACC sprint is a perfect thing to work on19:04
jelknerand both will be at the demo tomorrow19:04
pcarduneI'll be there as well19:04
dwelshWelsh will be there19:04
eldarwhat demo?19:04
jelkner(though i won't, so i'll be looking for you all to make sure you ask the right questions)19:05
Lumiereeldar: SIF message passing19:05
eldarwhere is it?19:05
dwelshEldar:  a demo of current ZIS-SIF functionality using 2 CanDo instances19:05
Lumierehere in #schooltool tomorrow at 10 am19:05
jelkner#schooltool, yes?19:05
eldarok cool19:05
pcarduneeldar: I'm sending you a google calendar invite19:05
pcarduneI'll also send one to Chris Carey and ... who else?19:06
jelknerok, back to the questions at hand:19:06
jelknermary linnell and thomas doggett19:06
eldarhaven't seen work from either one of them19:07
jelknerand you won't for a while19:07
jelknerthey are doing work for will19:07
dwelshHow many hrs. a week are Paul and Eldar working this summer?19:07
jelknerwho checks in everything himself19:07
pcardunedwelsh: 4019:07
eldarat least 4019:07
dwelshshouldn't we start with you two???19:07
dwelshthe sprints will serve your ongoing efforts?19:08
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Lumieredwelsh: the point here is to order the ongoing efforts as well19:08
dwelshthen in what order will you two be working on stuff19:08
Lumiereimport / export is going to be the first step19:08
pcardunewell, since import/export is top priority, we should work on that19:08
dwelshand isn't skill driver underway?19:08
pcarduneskill driver is in finishing touches stage19:09
pcarduneand shouldn't be handled during the sprint19:09
dwelshso that one is ready for teacher testing19:09
dwelshI can take that on, using my teacher test group, as well as myself19:09
eldaraccording to the map, i'm working on journal-update-notification19:09
dwelshhow about the next 3... journal update notice, quarterly grading and student evidence?19:09
jelknerquestion: what would be most important to have eldar work on during NH?19:10
dwelshhow are you two dividing those up?19:10
jelknerhe will have s richter to help him19:10
LumiereI think quarterly grading is best done outside a sprint19:10
jelknerand we want to make most effective use of that fact19:10
pcardunei'm underway with student evidence19:10
Lumiereit should be similar enough to skill drivers that it isn't major new code19:10
pcarduneI think that would be another good sprint focus19:10
pcarduneDo we have a list of attendees for the sprint?19:11
jelknerpcardune: let's put that off until later19:12
jelkneri want the goals to drive who i encourage to go19:12
pcarduneI just was wondering if we were paying big time folks to be there (in which case they drive the goals)19:13
jelkneri'm going to only ask folks who can really contribute19:13
Lumierejelkner: I am assuming somewhat that you're taking the interns to the side19:13
Lumiereand that I am going to have the developers moving forward19:13
jelknerexcept for those you want19:13
pcardunesummary of goals: import/export + student evidence19:13
jelknerwhat do we want to use srichter's time for?19:13
eldarwell, blueprints say i'm working on journal queueing, so i'll be working on that, i haven't started yet19:14
pcardunepossibly journal-update-notification19:14
LumiereI think import/export is a good first sprint, I think journal-update-notification and threading is a good NH sprint19:14
pcardunewhich if we had srichters help could be a *very* nice feature19:15
Lumiereand eldar will learn tons from it19:15
pcardunesrichter is not coming to the ACC sprint correct?19:15
jelkneronly NH19:15
pcarduneok, then journal update notificaiton is for NH19:16
eldaryeah, journal-update-notification with srichter sounds fun19:16
jelknerwhere does that leave ACC?19:16
LumiereI think import and export may take 4 days19:16
Lumiereit's big19:16
pcarduneI agree19:16
jelknerand *very* important19:16
pcarduneand any time we have left we can spend on student evidence19:16
jelknerso that means if we focus on that during ACC19:16
jelknerpcardune and eldar will need to work with ccarey and company on it19:17
pcarduneyes, they should be at the sprint19:17
Lumierethere are 2 very separate pieces on import export19:17
eldarjust a reminder, i will the first 2 days of ACC sprint19:17
eldarbe missing*19:17
Lumierethere's the SIF stuff19:18
Lumiereand then there's the xml outputs19:18
Lumierewhich I need to keep writing the schema for19:19
Lumierepcardune: I should probably sit down with you at some point in gobby and look it over19:19
pcardunei agree, let's set up a time to do that before the sprint19:20
Lumierethe FOSSED - DC sprint is going to be a release sprint19:20
dwelshwhich sprint is ignas at???19:20
dwelshwhich sprint is ignas at?19:20
LumiereI really expect us to be feature-complete for FOSSED DC19:20
dwelshrichter is in NH?19:21
dwelshignas is at FOSSED-DC?19:21
dwelshhoffman is at none?19:21
Lumiereth1a: here? :)19:21
pcarduneI'm going to create a wiki page for this stuff19:23
th1aI am at DC.19:24
jelknerok, i just got off the phone with ccarey19:24
jelknerhe is going to call his folks and get on here in the next 15 minutes19:24
jelknerhere is what i told him:19:24
jelkner1. we want you at the sprint19:25
jelkner2. we want you to stay and share a room with pcardune19:25
jelkner(since your project is the main goal)19:25
jelknerand we want you at the meeting tomorrow19:25
jelkner(he knew about that)19:25
Lumierejelkner: doctest-quiz IS NOT a medium priority goal of cando19:25
jelknerLumiere: yes it is19:26
Lumierejelkner: no, it is not and dwelsh doesn't think it is either19:26
eldarhere it comes19:26
Lumieredon't get started it won't be happening19:26
* pcardune slowly backs out of the room19:27
jelknerdwelsh and i hammered this out19:27
Lumiereit can be a blueprint, but it isn't at the same level of priority as anything else in medium19:27
jelknerand he agreed it is not high, but it is medium19:27
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* th1a dives for cover.19:27
* Lumiere didn't lower it to low19:27
jelknercpcarey: hi chris!19:27
cpcareyi will be at the sprint19:27
jelknerwhat's the word?19:27
jelknerfolks, do you have anything else for chris while we have him here?19:28
* eldar hands chris an e-cookie19:28
eldarnope, nothing19:28
pcardunehow much have you looked at what we are discussing tomorrow cpcarey?19:28
cpcareyi've haven't taken a good look at it yet19:29
dwelshwelsh is making a spreadsheet19:29
cpcareyi was planning on doing that later today19:29
dwelshproposal for carduner-eldar division of labor:19:29
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cpcareyschool just got out for us today19:29
dwelshcarduner:  skill-driver, quarterly grading, import-export (including VA SOL inclusion)19:29
dwelsheldar:  journal notification, student evidence, upload curric docs19:30
dwelshI see these as related groups19:30
pcardunecpcarey: ok, it would be good to have some knowledge before the meeting.  that is all I have for you...19:30
jelkneryes, and doc-test quiz falls on eldar19:30
jelknersince it fits in the student evidence project19:30
dwelshdoc test quiz, while important to elkner, is important to NO ONE ELSE19:30
dwelshit is a distraction from the bigger cando picture19:31
Lumierenot until everything else is satisfied or you put up your own money for it19:31
jelknerit will be important to many other teachers19:31
pcardunethis is not the time for this discussion19:31
pcarduneboth me and eldar will work on student evidence19:31
Lumiere+1 to pcardune19:31
cpcareypcardune: the information about tomorrow's meeting can be found on the schooltool trac, correct?19:31
pcarduneI have thought about it a fair amount already19:32
dwelshgreat, I've noted that19:32
pcardunecpcarey: I don't think there really is any information other than the time and place19:32
pcardunecpcarey: so, no19:32
pcardunecpcarey: but i did send you a google calendar invite19:32
dwelshas for ie compatibility, printable forms and speed-data entry...19:32
Lumierecpcarey: this is going to be an introduction to most of us in it19:32
dwelshthey could go to either of you19:32
pcardunedwelsh: is that a google doc spreadsheet you could share with me + eldar?19:33
dwelshall three are important to CanDo users19:33
Lumieredwelsh: is which a spreadsheet?19:33
pcardunedwelsh: some of those things are going to interns19:33
dwelshyes, I think they would be good intern issues19:33
cpcareypcardune: is there any specific information i should go over for tomorrow's meeting?19:33
pcardunecpcarey: checkout the code for it... find it on launchpad or ask will dickerson19:34
Lumiereerr pcardune is what a spreadsheet?19:34
cpcareypcardune: sounds good19:34
pcarduneLumiere: the one dwelsh is writing19:34
Lumiereon what though?19:34
pcardunecpcarey: when you get those links, you could add said info to the wiki19:35
pcarduneLumiere: spec assignments19:35
pcarduneLumiere: it could/should be put in LP too19:35
Lumiereit's on the wiki and LP19:35
Lumierelook at the spec docs in wiki19:35
cpcareyi have to leave for lunch, anything else?19:36
Lumierecpcarey: not that I see19:36
pcardunecpcarey: talk to you tomorrow19:36
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pcarduneok, I think we are done here?19:38
Lumieregive me a sec19:38
pcarduneLumiere: you want to work on updating the wiki with this info?19:38
LumiereI can, yes19:38
eldaralright, i'm gonna head back to making the trunk work19:39
Lumiereeldar: ok19:39
Lumierepcardune: this afternoon for working on xml?19:39
pcarduneLumiere: nope19:40
pcardunehow about wednesday?19:40
Lumierewednesday I am out in Herndon with the LearniT team19:40
pcarduneLumiere: dwelsh also mentioned va-sol's being part of import export?  I see it as a separate spec in LP with "low" priority, should it be moved up?19:40
Lumiere(and I am gone thursday -> monday)19:40
pcarduneok, it will have to be tuesday then19:41
Lumiereva-sol's should be destroyed again19:41
Lumiereit is part of import/export imo19:41
Lumierehe sees a separate userstory19:41
LumiereI see it as a sub userstory of the i/e blueprint19:41
pcardunewe may want several import/export blue prints19:42
pcardunebecause xml stuff is very different from SIF stuff19:42
pcarduneand both are very different from va-sols19:42
pcardunein terms of implementation19:42
Lumierein the end I want va-sols to be in the xml format19:42
pcarduneI think those should be 3 specs all with highest priority19:42
Lumiereif that's how you see it lets do that19:42
pcarduneLumiere: ok, but we don't have them in said XML format right now... the same issue with VERSO19:43
pcarduneok, good19:43
Lumierepcardune: once we get the xml format19:43
Lumierewe may be able to get them to export to it19:43
pcarduneyes, but this will be another issue altogether19:43
Lumierethe end goal is for the userstories/blueprints to be what the devlopers need to continue working19:43
pcarduneLumiere: does the SIF presentation meeting show up in your google calendar at 10am?19:44
pcardunethanks, my timezone issues19:46
pcarduneI'm going to put in a feature request to google folks for better multi-timezone support19:46
Lumiereit's important19:47
Lumierelol eldar19:47
Lumiereyou just found the schooltool blame list19:47
eldarLumiere, do you know if I can insert a line into a file from shell?19:49
eldarlike in the middle of the file19:49
pcarduneeldar: if not then write a python script to do it, and call the python script from the makefile19:52
eldarhmmm, i can do crazy echo and cat stuff19:53
eldarwhich looks like this19:53
eldarcat site.zcml | grep -v "</configure>" >> site.zcml19:54
eldar echo '<include package="cando" />end of the line</configure>'19:54
eldar>> site.zcml19:54
eldarbut is that a good idea?19:54
eldarto put it in a Makefile19:55
eldari mean it works19:55
eldarit's just ugly19:55
pcarduneLumiere: so what time do you want to meet tomorrow?19:55
Lumierepcardune: right after sif?19:55
Lumierejust a note to everyone, the SIF meeting has been moved to 10 am19:56
Lumiereplease reply if you're coming19:56
jelknerth1a: are you still coming to dc?19:56
pcarduneI accidentally put it for 10am PST (woops)19:57
jelknerand bringing ignas and jean franciois?19:57
th1aWe need to get ignas to book his flight.20:00
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Lumierehi Newfie2007_20:03
Newfie2007_Lumiere: hey20:04
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Lumierefood bbiab20:10
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eldarjfroche, jinty: do either one of you have a suggestion for a clean way for us to include cando as an egg?20:33
jintyinclude cando into what?20:33
eldarafter the reddux can't packages aren't put in package-includes20:33
eldarso i'm guessing we have to use eggs now20:33
eldarhow should we go about doing that?20:34
jintyhmm, you could probably look at the buildout ignas built20:35
jintyperhaps the cleanest way might be to write your own site.zcml file20:35
jintyand reference that from you config file20:36
eldarand insert an include of that into schooltool's site.czml?20:36
jintyno, have that include schooltool's site.zcml20:36
jintyyou shouldn't need to modify any schooltool code20:36
eldarno i mean20:36
eldarin the make20:36
eldarwhen building, make the make do the insert20:37
eldarjust include the schooltool's site.zcml in cando's20:37
eldarand make cando's site zcml20:37
eldarthe site zcml in config file?20:37
jintyyeah, that sounds better20:37 has a directive for that20:37
jintyyep, it should, and you just found the use case20:38
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jintyeldar: we're still digesting eggs, so things are probably difficult right now20:40
jintybut hopefully we'll develop ways of working that will make things easier20:40
pcardunejinty: we need a good and general way to "add an addon package to schooltool"20:43
jintyyeah, we actually need a few good ways20:43
pcarduneif the add-on package is available via an egg, the egg should be installed20:43
pcarduneif the add-on package is available via source files,20:43
* jinty likes the way apache2 deos it in debian20:44
pcardunethen ??? - we are thinking droping somepackage-configure.zcml into schooltool-skel/etc/package-includes/20:44
* pcardune also likes the way apache2 does it20:44
jintyignas also does20:44
jintyso that's probably what we're going to do when someone does it20:45
jintyor figures out how20:45
jintyotherwise there are entry points20:45
jintywhich I havn't investigated yet20:45
pcardunewell we'll try it with the package-includes way20:46
pcardunedrop in a cando-configure.zcml20:46
pcarduneand have cando-configure.zcml include site.zcml20:46
jintybut for now, we should resist the temptation to build these things into the eggs themselves20:46
pcardunedoes that sound right?20:46
jintyI think that you want a cando working directory separate from your source20:47
jintythat directory could have svn:externals to bring in the source20:47
jintyand should have it's own site.zcml that includes whatever you need for a basic cando install20:47
eldaryeah, as of now, we're trying to drop cando-configure.zcml into package-includes20:48
eldarthat includes cando20:48
eldarcando's configure.zcml include's cando's site.zcml20:48
eldarwhich in turn includes all cando modules20:48
jintysite.zcml is higher level than configure.zcml20:49
jintyso probably the site.zcml should include the configure.zcml and not the other way around20:49
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pcardunejinty: we are currently using svn:externals to do just what you suggest, the issue is, do we wrap schooltool inside of cando (seems kind of awkward since cando is an add-on to schooltool and not the other way around) or do add cando to schooltool as if it were just another add on (seemingly more complicated)20:51
pcardunebut maybe this is not an issue for a trunk checkout20:52
jintycando and schooltool are both eggs, they are logically at the same level, you need to go to a meta level20:52
jintyhave a higher level zcml file that includes both of them20:52
* jinty realizes he's speaking in riddles;)20:53
* pcardune attempts to interpret said riddles20:53
pcardunejinty: but then what about actually running the schooltool server?20:53
pcardunedo we drop in our own schooltool.conf to use the meta zcml?20:54
jintywhy don't you just copy the schooltool-server script from schooltool's svn20:54
eldarthat's a bit much?20:54
jintyit's onlt a few lines long anyway20:54
jintyyeah, as I said, we need to find ways of not having this kind of duplication20:55
jintybut not building this stuff into the eggs20:55
eldaralright, so we're going with dropping a single configure into package-includes for now20:55
pcardunethen make the copy use our own schooltool.conf20:55
pcarduneor cando.conf rather20:55
eldarwhy conf20:55
eldarwe only need to include packages20:56
* jinty thinks site.zcml files shouldn't live inside eggs at all20:56
eldarfor your comfort20:56
eldarwe'll name it20:56
eldarand have cando's configure20:56
eldaralright actually20:56
eldarforget it20:56
eldarno site.zcml20:56
eldarjust have20:56
eldarcando's configure.czml20:56
Lumierehaving fun?20:56
eldarinclude all the packages20:56
eldarfrom cando20:56
eldarand no extraneous operations needed20:57
pcarduneand drop cando-configure.zcml into site-packages?20:57
Lumierepcardune / eldar: dwelsh desperately wants the 4 bugs in launchpad on 2006 journaling fixed20:57
Lumiereand for jinty to be able to push a new package20:57
eldar2006 journaling? i thought you guys are done with the year20:57
Lumierehe wants that one last 2006 release20:57
Lumiereyea I want to be but he seems to want a package (i'll check again)20:58
* pcardune just discovered his dad's itunes account password :)20:58
LumiereI am looking at his docs from the meeting today20:58
Lumiere'journal bug fixes' is in his list for eldar20:58
eldarthat's why kde wallet is a great idea20:58
eldaroh jeez20:59
LumiereI am also about to go through LP20:59
eldarelkner says one thing, dave says another20:59
pcarduneLumiere: ok, i'll do the journal fixes in cando200620:59
Lumiereignore elkner20:59
Lumieredwelsh's words are law20:59
pcardunewhat if elkner says ignore jason?20:59
Lumierepcardune: then talk to dwelsh20:59
Lumieredwelsh pays the bills20:59
Lumieredwelsh makes the rules21:00
pcardunedoesn't elkner have to sign the invoices also?21:00
Lumiereno comment21:00
pcarduneok, well eldar, have fun with the build21:01
pcardunedo whatever works21:01
pcarduneand I'll beat up ignas and friends in vilnius :)21:01
Lumierejinty: I am working on getting you a server, is there anything in particular I need to do to setup the build client?21:01
pcarduneand get them to show me how it should work the right way21:01
Lumierepcardune / eldar: can you look at the cando wiki sprint pages21:02
Lumiereand make sure I didn't miss anything21:02
eldarpcardune, hahaha, yes please do that21:03
jintyLumiere, er, you need to set up buildbot as a slave21:04
Lumiereand point it at?21:04
pcarduneLumiere: are People the people who are attending the sprints?21:05
pcarduneLumiere: and can you put the sprint dates on the main page?21:05
jintyLumiere, source.schooltool.org21:06
jintychecking port info now21:06
jintyLumiere, port 999921:08
Lumierenow to figure out how to configure the buildslave21:09
jintyI think you need to send me the slave name and password21:10
Lumiere<name>, <passwd>, and <master> will be provided by the buildmaster administrator21:10
Lumierefor your bot.21:10
jintyhow about this: you make up the name, and I'll make up the password21:11
Lumierelol ok21:11
Lumierecando-coverage for name21:11
jintyof the build? or the slave?21:12
jintywhat's the name of the box21:12
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Lumierethe name of the box is cando06int, but it is behind a firewall21:12
LumiereI was naming the build21:13
eldarLumiere, oops sorry was working on the build, yeah i'll look at the wiki right now21:22
jintyLumiere: set up a test build here:
jintyall it'll do is make a cando checkout for now21:25
jintyand it's not scheduled21:25
jintyalso sent you the password via e-mail21:26
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jintyslave is named cando06int21:27
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LumiereI guess it isn't running yet21:28
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pcarduneLumiere: see for status update21:29
Lumierejinty: have I messed something up21:30
Lumierepcardune: I don't know that it is a problem with new checkouts of cando21:31
pcarduneso what is the problem?21:32
Lumierebut, I know it shows up on the acc.cando production server21:32
pcarduneright, that is not something that should be fixed by a code modification21:32
Lumiereit's a data problem21:32
Lumiererather then a code problem?21:33
pcardunethe problem is that the title is not dynamically generated21:33
pcarduneit is static21:33
pcarduneand with good reason, because it is an attribute that the end user can modify to whatever he/she wants21:33
Lumiereand in the DB?21:33
jinty hmm, Lumiere try port 9989?21:34
Lumiereso when we generate them from now on21:34
pcarduneso the old default is still around in those old blogs21:34
* jinty can't read21:34
pcardunei'm sure if you try to reproduce the problem with a new student on your production server, it will have the new default21:34
pcarduneso the old titles should either be changed manually, or I can write a script to do it21:35
LumiereI'll have dwelsh try it in a moment21:35
pcarduneif there are a lot of students21:35
dwelshdwelsh is here21:36
jintyLumiere, I think you got unauthorized21:37
Lumiereah yes21:37
Lumiereunauthorized login21:38
LumiereI copied the password verbatim21:38
Lumiereslavename cando-coverage21:38
jintyand the slavename? cando06int?21:38
Lumieregot it21:39
jintyer, well it's doing rather more than just checking out the source21:40
Lumiereseems to be21:40
jintywee "failed" on compiling21:41
* jinty goes off to have dinner!21:41
Lumiereat least that means it works21:41
Lumierethanks jinty21:41
jintyno worries21:41
jintywe'll get the rest sorted out later21:41
jintymails to the list21:41
jintyand triggers on commits21:41
Lumierethis is enough for eldar and pcardune to at least see what's up21:43
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eldarhow do we find out about errors?21:45
pcardunethat looks like the error that andrew was getting...21:47
Lumiereeldar: click on the log21:47
LumiereI know what that is I think21:48
Lumierehmm or not21:49
Lumierelibunicode-dev wasn't installed21:50
Lumiererunning build21:50
Lumieregrr21:51 *tries that*21:52
Lumierewe need to make sure our package requires libicu21:53
Lumiereif that's what it is21:53
Lumierestill compiling21:54
Lumierewhich suggests we're beyond that problem21:54
eldaryou need21:54
eldarwait, is this feisty?21:54
Lumiereif I need feisty21:54
LumiereI'll upgrade it21:55
eldarbuild-essential, python-dev, libc6-dev, python-libxml2, python-imaging, libicu-dev21:55
eldarare all required21:55
Lumierebut I wanted to make sure I could get a buildbot running before I upgrade21:55
LumiereI was only missing icu-dev21:55
eldaryou also need21:55
eldarthe dapper one21:55
eldaris too old21:55
eldarhave to use ez_setup.py21:55
LumiereI should be good21:55
eldarbut that thing is crap21:55
eldarlast time i tried to build trunk on dapper21:55
eldari failed miserably21:55
eldartrunk should build fine on feisty right now21:56
Lumierecompile complete21:56
Lumierecheck the logs for me21:57
Lumieremake sure it is sane21:57
eldarwhere do i go for logs?21:59
Lumiereback to buildbot21:59
Lumiereclick on log under compile21:59
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eldarlooks good22:02
Lumieregonna make tests work22:07
* pcardune steps out for lunch22:11
Lumierethis thing is gonna run for a while22:13
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dwelshpcardune: you still around???22:15
Lumieresysfault: anything I can help you with? :)22:16
sysfaultnah, I'm fine. Just visiting22:16
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eldarsterling went down22:39
Lumierethey'll get it back22:39
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pcardunedwelsh: I'm here now22:48
* pcardune is back22:48
* pcardune looks at the book google gave him (Producing Open Source Software) and thinks to himself, "this is timely."22:49
* Lumiere pings dwelsh 22:57
dwelshpcardune:  check you math on Time Clock23:03
pcardunedwelsh: I did, and got the same results23:03
pcardunewhat exactly was wrong?23:03
dwelshour accountant checked your output, and DID NOT get the same results23:03
pcardunewhat did she get?23:03
dwelshhrs. x $/hr. does not equal total?23:04
dwelshMaybe she just interpreted something wrong.  I'll ask.23:04
Lumiere>>> 40.24*25.023:05
LumierePaul Carduner's Work Log (04/21/07 to 05/11/07) (40.24 hours, $1005.90)23:05
dwelshdo your hours add up?23:05
dwelshto 40.24, I mean?23:05
pcardunen [5]: 40*25+14./60*2523:06
pcarduneOut[5]: 1005.833333333333423:06
Lumierethe hours in the list come out to 40.1423:07
pcarduneno, they come out to 40:1423:07
Lumiereer meant :23:07
Lumierebut the list looks like 40:2423:07
pcardunewait, what is the problem?23:07
pcarduneone shows hours:minutes, and the other shows just hours23:08
pcardune40:14 hours = 40.14 hours23:08
LumiereI see it now23:08
pcardunei mean 40:14 hours = 40.24 hours23:08
pcardunenon-math majors shouldn't ask math majors to check their  math :)23:09
Lumiereyea thanks : vs . = pain23:10
Lumierepcardune: we need to make cando's make coverage23:12
LumiereNOT run schooltool's make coverage23:12
Lumiereit's killing the buildbot23:12
Lumierethe bastard's been at it for over an hour23:12
LumiereIntel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.00GHz23:13
dwelshback to math...23:13
dwelsh40:14 * $25 = 1005.8323:13
dwelshso why does it say 1005.90?23:13
dwelshanother example...23:14
dwelsh8:28 * $25 = $211.6623:15
dwelshyou've got $212.0823:15
LumiereI gotta go23:15
Lumiereback tomorrow at 1023:15
pcardunedwelsh: looking into it23:15
pcarduneby Lumiere23:15
dwelshhere's the easiest:23:16
dwelsh1:00 x $25 = $25; you've got $25.1723:16
eldarit's prolly 1 hour and some minutes23:17
dwelshthat may be a part of it... the seconds.23:19
dwelshI would round off the seconds.  It confuses accountants23:20
pcarduneand .4 minutes23:20
dwelshright.  again, i would be inclined to round those off23:21
pcarduneso there is your answer dwelsh, the math is even more right than you imagine :)23:21
dwelshmaybe a little too right!23:21
pcardunemaybe we should just put in 1:00:24 instead?23:22
dwelshcould, but that gets a little crazy.23:22
dwelshconsultants usually bill to the nearest 15-mins.23:23
dwelshand they factor in breaks, distractions, time off the project within a given period23:23
dwelshI'm not sure we should bill consultant time like cell phone minutes23:24
dwelshit just doesn't quite work that way23:24
pcarduneactually, I agree with you23:24
pcardunenearest 15 minutes makes a lot of sense23:24
pcarduneI mean, the method it's using does not discriminate towards any party.  You are equally likely to click clockout in the latter half of a minute as the former half of a minute23:26
dwelshI would even go for rounding to the nearest minute, and then use that as the multiplier23:26
dwelshif seconds are not shown, then seconds should not be multiplied23:26
dwelshthat creates some confusion23:27
pcarduneright, that is the point that I was making with 1:00:24 :)23:27
pcardunebut 1:00:24 makes more work for the person using a calculator23:27
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dwelshjust round to 1:00 and multiply that way (or to 1:01, as the rounding case may be)23:27
pcardunethey've gotta do (1+(0+24/60)/60)*2523:28
pcarduneinstead of just (1+0/60)*2523:28
dwelshright.  round off the seconds.  I choose the later23:28
*** eX|deathomen is now known as wjohnsto23:29
dwelshdwelsh headed home.  good planning and progress today.23:30
dwelshthanks eldar and pcardune23:30
pcardunenp talk to you tomorrow23:30
pcarduneeldar: how's it going?23:35
eldarpcardune, pretty good it works23:36
eldarthe build that is23:36
eldarnow gotta work on the batching changes23:36
pcardunemaybe you should checkin the build fix now?23:37
pcarduneeldar: ping23:40
eldarthe build fix is already checked in23:40
eldarthe buildbot23:41
eldarcompiled successfully23:41
pcarduneoh, nvm then23:41
pcardunei clearly wasn't paying attention23:41
eldari am going to go23:41
eldarand illegally23:41
eldarinstall os x23:41
eldaron my thinkpad23:41
pcardunewait a second...23:41
pcardunehow are you going to do this23:42
pcardunethis is an applegate thing isn't it?23:42
pcarduneoh, and can you update launchpad?23:42
eldari found out you can do that from him23:42
eldarwhat do you want me to do in lp?23:42
pcarduneupdate the bug for cando being included into schooltool23:43
pcardunewhich is assigned to you23:43
eldargimme a link23:44
eldari can't find it >.<23:44
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