IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2007-03-19

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Lumierehi th1a06:12
th1aLumiere: Hi.06:12
th1aHow's it going?06:12
Lumierenot too bad06:13
LumiereI've got your developers busy06:13
Lumierepcardune and I put together an ftest for security on resources06:14
Lumiereit's not complete quite yet, but we'll clean it up over the next week as we get to it06:14
Lumiereand I spent a little bit cleaning up cando's current set of specs06:15
Lumierewrote the event-ui spec for schooltool too06:15
Lumiere(there's really nothing like looking at the blueprints front page of launchpad and seeing the top of both the registered and completed lists being your specs06:16
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Lumierelike... tomorrow06:45
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jintyhoi Lumiere08:58
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jfrocheignas: thanks for your reply to my commits14:31
jfrocheignas: i get a UnpickleableError: Cannot pickle <type ''> objects15:07
jfrocheany idea ?15:07
ignasremoveSecurityProxy for objects that will be stored in the database15:07
jfrochewhere does that come from ?15:08
jfrochei try to understand why15:10
ignasoh - well you can't put security wrapped objects in database15:19
ignasso if you get something out of let's say person container15:19
ignasyou should removeSecurityProxy from it before storing it in for example person.advisor attribute of another person15:19
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* th1a shuffles some papers around.16:27
th1aHi ignas, jfroche, jinty, Lumiere...16:27
th1aOK... first off, should we switch to 1330 UTC next week.16:29
th1aI don't need the incentive to sleep in.16:29
jfrochehello th1a16:29
th1aHi jfroche.16:29
th1aAny objections to 1330?16:31
jfrocheno problem16:32
th1aOK.  Who knows how to switch the IRC header thingy?16:32
*** jfroche changes topic to "SchoolTool development | IRC logs at | Dev meetings Mon, 13:30 UTC (15:30 EET) | Use for pasting | pcardune's Zope class, Saturdays at noon US/Eastern (GMT-5) (no class today)"16:33
th1aLumiere: You around?16:33
th1aignas:  What have you been up to?16:34
ignaslyceum, and lyceum, and thinking of how to pull off the release without having some serious technical problems after that16:35
th1aHow are things with the Lyceum?16:36
ignashmm, most of the new functionality works16:37
ignasi must make some tweaks and test it properly16:37
ignasbecause it's all a bit of a spike to see if it's possible16:38
th1aThe new functionality you've been working on for Lyceum, you mean.16:38
ignastimetables for persons, timetables for groups,  calendar for groups16:39
ignasaggregate calendar16:39
ignasthat is16:39
ignasthe security functional test for can do is passing now16:40
th1aAh, good.  Did you do that today?16:41
ignasnah, yesterday16:41
th1aOK.  jfroche, what have you been up to?16:42
th1aWhen is that Plone sprint?16:42
jfrochei worked on import for the teachers, courses and sections16:42
jfrochesprint is next week from Sunday 25 til Monday 0216:43
jfrochebut i think i will be able to attend the meeting16:43
th1aOK.  So you're really shooting for getting your import done this week.16:43
jfrochethe calendaring for the courses won't be done this week as i need to meet with the teacher in charge for the school timetable16:44
jfrochebut i prefer to start with the student notes asap16:45
th1ajinty:  Did you get my email about the meeting in Seville?16:47
jintyhmm, not yet16:47
* jinty investigates16:48
th1aWell, anyhow, I'm probably going to an Edubuntu planning meeting of some sort in Spain on May 5-6-ish.16:48
th1aIt should be more definite in a few days.16:48
th1aI'd like jinty to be there too if possible, so we can discuss packaging in more detail with the Edubuntu team.16:49
jintyyeah, that would be pretty cool16:49
th1ajinty: You're in Barcelona, right?16:49
jintyyep, Seville is pretty far away16:50
jintyreasonably hot in may as well16:50
th1aI'm sure there'll be a tree for us to sit under.16:50
* jinty checks how long a train ride would take16:50
jfrocheignas: in module header, do we need to update the copyright year ?16:51
ignasi do most of the time16:51
ignasunless i forget16:51
th1ajinty: I could probably fly you.16:51
th1aI'll let you know once things are certain.16:51
th1aOK.  Lets return to discussing, in broad terms, what a feisty+1 release would do.16:52
th1a1) This is a base for a CanDo release.16:52
jintyth1a: there seems to be overnight trains, also I would have to clear this with the guys I work with16:53
th1a2)  It does not have to be particularly featureful.16:53
th1ajinty:  Give me a couple days to make sure of what's going on.16:54
jintyth1a: yeah, np16:54
th1aThat is, this release should do:16:54
th1aa) calendaring & resource booking;16:54
th1ab) probably some demographics.16:55
Lumierehere now16:55
th1aHi Lumiere16:55
th1aBut Ubuntu users will be looking more for an update of SchoolTool as calendar than screaming for an attendance component.16:56
th1a3) We want to do something that is easily forward-compatible.16:56
ignashmm, so timetables, courses, sections, attendance, gradebook, notes can be left out?16:56
th1aignas: Not that much!16:57
ignashow much then ?16:57
LumiereI would leave timetables, courses, sections16:57
th1aYou need timetables, courses, sections.16:57
ignasso calendaring, resource booking, courses, sections, timetables, terms16:57
ignasfor a)16:57
Lumiereth1a: I don't start work until 14:00-14:15... so I'd be even later then I was today if it was moved...16:58
ignasso we can only disable(not enable) gradebook, levels and maybe notes, leaving the rest in the default configuration?16:58
th1aExactly what the demographics will look like is something we will have to discuss later.16:59
th1aLumiere: I'm not sure if 1430 is inconveniently late for our European colleagues.16:59
Lumiereit's ok16:59
LumiereI'll just backrea17:00
ignas14:30 is good enough for me17:00
Lumiereat some point, it would be good to setup a base package and some choices... so schooltool-resources or schooltool-timetables17:00
th1aignas: I think so, although there is probably some stuff that can be removed and not just disabled.17:00
Lumierewhere timetables installs the idea of courses sections and terms as well17:01
th1aLumiere: I think we could do that eventually, but it isn't really necessary now.17:01
ignasLumiere: the problem with the timetables being built into this release17:01
ignasis that we will have problems with making it optional in the future17:02
ignasas in - if you have a database with timetables, you won't be able to apt-get install schooltool without apt-get installing schooltool-timetables17:02
ignasor your database will break17:02
th1aI just don't see it as a big priority either way.17:02
th1aThis is the kind of issue we can spend a lot of time on to no real advantage.17:03
th1aAnyhow, regarding customizations and Debian packages.17:04
th1aIs it fair to say that it is not a goal that you can apt-get schooltool, modify it, apt-get update a new version of schooltool, and expect it to not break?17:04
th1aI mean, that's just not a reasonable requirement?17:05
ignasemm - i am not afraid of modifications17:05
ignasif you are modifying - you know what you are doing17:05
ignasbut of double click users who would find eggs too difficult17:05
ignasbecause these will not be able to cope with anything less than an automatic flawless upgrade17:05
th1aignas: Yes, but if you are modifying, aren't you using a tarball instead of deb?17:05
ignasth1a: in the perfect way - no, you can easily use the deb and add your modifications (if jinty will allow custom site.zcml's and multiple schooltool server instances on the same machine)17:06
jintyth1a: if you apt-get install schooltool, then apt-get install schooltool-cando, in an ideal world you would modify the currently running schooltool17:07
ignasand it's not a problem, you will just update configuration when schooltool gets separated into multiple packages17:07
ignasand get it working17:07
ignasthe problem is the automatic installed schooltools17:07
jintyignas: they are both are allowed, but you've gotta do it yourself17:07
ignasjinty will have a lot of fun writing configuration migration from schooltool to schooltool-timetable + schooltool17:08
th1aignas: That's one reason I don't want to mess with that.17:08
ignaswith what?17:08
th1aSplitting timetable into a new deb package.17:08
ignasif I had enough time to do it for this release it would save us a lot of effort in our next releases17:09
* jinty thinks we need to define a policy for add-ons, like: * can be removed without breaking the database, * can be added without breaking the database17:09
LumiereI agree with jinty17:10
ignasjinty: all addons can be added (i got the idea from j1m on how to do that)17:10
jintythe basic minimum level that everyone agrees on17:10
ignasthe problem is "evolution" from "monolith" to "set of parts" without breaking compatibility17:11
th1ajinty: +1.17:11
Lumieremy issue is, I don't want to get to a point where we have half of it in the schooltool package17:11
Lumiereand other pieces seperate17:12
th1aignas: Does that problem == lots of tricky evolution scripts and not much else?17:12
ignasth1a: it is probably solvable by lots of tricky evolution scripts + magic in debian post install and pre install scripts17:13
ignasbut yes it is doable17:13
ignaseven if we will have to inspect internal ZODB evolution status17:14
th1aLike, "doable at a sprint" doable?17:14
ignasno, as in if i would do it before the sprint (no way too much lyceum work on my hands) it would be like 2-3 weeks, if it will will release it will be 2-3 weeks to make it work + 2-3 weeks to make it evolve17:15
ignass/it will will/we will/17:16
ignassprint will be dedicated to packaging17:16
ignasso except for this problem (solvable by sheer programming power some time later)17:17
ignasanother one is that I didn't anticipate any releases when comming up with my plan17:17
th1aSo are we back around to the fact that there isn't actually time to do this reorganization before a release?17:18
th1aOK.  Which is why I was against it at the beginning.17:18
ignasi am just warning about the increase in cost if we release it in the summer, that's all17:19
th1aYes, this is what I'm trying to sort out.17:19
ignasbefore this week i though that migration was not solvable at all17:19
th1aWhat changed your mind?17:20
ignasdiscussions with alga and justas17:20
th1aI mean, was their some kind of technical revelation that made you see that it was possible?17:22
th1aOh, these laconic Lithuanians...17:23
ignasand the managerial side of it - i mean all the time i spend on release, resource booking and integration is something that is either comming from my free time or from my commitment to lyceum17:23
th1aignas: Yes.  I am very aware of that problem.17:24
Lumiereand I thank you for it17:24
th1aI'm trying to figure out what kind of release, if any, we can do without messing you up.17:24
th1aGetting SchoolTool deployed in Lyceum is the highest priority for both of us.17:24
ignasth1a: last meeting you said that CanDo was the highest priority for us ;)17:25
th1aI didn't mean the highest priority over all.17:25
th1aI meant the highest priority for the release, I think.17:26
th1aAlthough you can check the log ;-)17:26
ignasyou see - splitting it into parts is something that aligns with my needs for lyceum, making it releasable and then evolving from that - is something completely orthogonal to lyceum requirements :/17:27
ignasi have reused quite some code from the resource booking sprint while doing composite calendars for lyceum ;)17:27
th1aBut yes, the entire question is not "is it possible for us to package a release," but "is it possible for us to package a release without messing up our other priorities?"17:27
ignaspossible - yes, will cost us after the release - yes, as long as you know that, it's fine with me17:29
th1aI'm willing to incurr some technical debt to get out a simple feisty+1 release that works.17:29
ignasjinty: when you will have time we should talk about the ways to install schooltool to have less problems in the future17:29
ignasas we will have no good configuration files in this release site.zcml management and Data.fs locations will be the important thing17:30
th1aBefore we go, everyone:  Are we making progress in this conversation or just going in circles?17:30
ignasmade some progress, now i know that you know what i know, and what i think17:31
ignasone more question about the release:17:31
th1ajinty, jfroche, Lumiere?17:31
ignasCanDo install will be used by people, and cando guys will be maintaining it (looking at bug reports, explaining people how to use it etc.)17:32
ignasdo we want schooltool that will be released used by non technically minded people or not?17:32
jintyignas: I'm pretty confident in the way that the site.zcml is currently managed in the debian packages, perhaps we should talk about why the way i'm doing it is bad17:33
ignasif not - we should make up a scary name for the package "lib-schooltool"17:33
jfrocheth1a:  if i can help for this tell me, would be happy to help with migration scripts & configuration17:33
ignasif we want users - we should brace ourselves for support work on our new release17:33
jintypython-schooltool ;)17:33
jintyit already exists...17:34
ignasand really commiting to maintaining it17:34
th1aignas: I think we'll be more able to handle the support work because we don't have plans to write a bunch of new functionality immediately after the release.17:34
ignasbecause i am way demotivated by yelling "we know it's a bug, we will not fix it for the next year, because we don't have resources"17:34
th1aAnd we have more consistent access to you and jfroche.17:35
ignasth1a: i have plans to write quite a lot of new functionality for lyceum17:35
* jinty agrees totally with ignas17:35
ignasas in - i will be as busy as i am now17:35
LumiereI am hoping that we're going to be able to throw some of the cando interns17:36
Lumiereat the schooltool side of bugs etc17:36
th1aLumiere: Yes... we just have to do our best.17:36
ignasso we are going for the full "YAY schooltool was released, come and use it, and give us a lot of feedback"17:37
ignaswhich we will appreciate, and implement17:37
th1aignas: It will be the half-YAY, rather than the full-YAY.17:38
ignasso "yay" not "YAY"17:38
Lumiereit's a yea not a YAY17:38
th1aAnd I'm not going to worry about feature requests.17:39
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Lumierebut I think we need to sit down with welsh and elkner17:39
Lumiereand get them to agree to some of the intern hours to schooltool17:39
th1aThis will not be SCHOOLTOOL 1.0 RELEASED!!!17:40
Lumieremaybe .117:40
th1aAny last words?17:40
LumiereI'm going to have welsh's attention starting now17:41
Lumiereanything I really need to drag him through the mud for?17:41
ignasjinty: have you tried packaging CanDo?17:41
th1aLumiere: Not that I can think of.17:42
Lumierewe definately could use a release of the branch same as the last ones.17:42
Lumierewe had a critical bug get fixed last night17:42
Lumiereor 2 nights ago now17:42
jintyignas: yes, both as an "include the whole of schooltool and zope3 codebase" monolith17:42
Lumierewhich is what it does now (the cando-06 pacakge in the schooltool repository is monolithic)17:43
jintyignas: and as a small and light "just depend on the schooltool package and don't duplicate much"17:43
ignasjinty: hmm, any way to make some "fake" debs with current CanDo and schooltool so i could look at them and meditate about configuration management?17:43
jintyand that's also why cando-06 will probably never make it into a real distribution17:44
Lumierejinty: which we're ok with17:44
Lumierewe made a decision early on this year that we weren't going to worry about it17:44
jintyLumiere, yes, glad the message got through;)17:44
Lumierewhich is also why we wanted cando-0617:45
Lumiereinstead of cando17:45
Lumiereonce we move to a cando package or a schooltool-cando package17:45
jintyignas, I think there are some debs of the alpha schooltool release lying aroud somewhere17:45
Lumierewe'll be saying that we're going to have a sane update path17:45
Lumiereright now... I can't ensure that17:45
ignasjinty: hmm, i am thinking of "schooltool-trunk" nightly .deb addable to apt-source list17:46
ignasjinty: but that might take too much of your time17:46
* th1a drops the bag of gravel. Talk among yourselves...17:47
jintyignas: would be nice, but have to get the nightly tarball working again first;)17:47
Lumierewas that the bag of gravel or the bag of gavel?17:47
ignasjinty: anything i can do to help you with that?17:48
th1aLumiere: The gavel long ago mutated into gravel.17:48
Lumierejinty: I am looking at setting up a buildbot sometime in the near future17:49
Lumiereeven if I have to setup cron to get code17:49
jintyignas: the trunk of this repo was where I last stopped
jintyignas: I just scped a schooltool and python-schooltool deb made from the above source to my home directory on schooltool.org17:53
* ignas would like to see the release machinery working until we actually start working on the release17:54
ignasso that in the sprint we could easily build debs and testinstall them on random ubuntu machines17:54
jintyignas: +100, but we are in limbo right now...17:54
ignasbut yes, it all depends on how Zope3 will be installed17:55
ignasand i have no idea about what we will do with alpha releases of eggs we depend on17:55
jintythey need to be packaged, or we shouldn't be depending on them17:56
jintyin general we shouldn't depend on alpha software anyway...17:56
ignasif maintainers will not package them - we will have to17:56
th1aPerhaps we can get help from Canonical on that.17:57
jintyit's not difficult to package a single egg17:57
ignasth1a: canonical can't do much if the package is maintained by J1m ...17:57
ignasor someone else from Zope Corp17:57
jinty(package as in egg, or deb?)17:57
th1aThey can't make a deb of the version we require?17:58
ignasbut still - r6789.egg does not seem reassuring17:58
ignasand you can't make someone get the egg into stable releasable state17:58
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jfrocheignas: person container view takes around 30s to be generated with my 1062 persons. Should i play with catalog there ?19:47
ignasyou might try19:47
ignasmaybe it will work19:47
ignasbut pay attention to the i18n issues when sorting by name19:48
jfrochemean the special character ?19:48
jfrocheok i ll look. thanks19:52
Lumiereignas: is there a way in ftests to set times20:27
ignasset times?20:27
Lumiereand track how long things are 'allowed' to take... or how long a test takes20:27
ignaswant to set time limits?20:27
Lumierebecause I plan on writing a stress test ftest for cando20:28
ignasproblem is that these are very machine specific20:28
ignasas in - my computer might be way slower or a lot faster than yours20:28
Lumiereeven if it just reports back how long it takes20:28
ignasyou might want to create a file "time_report.txt"20:29
ignasand write times there manualy20:29
ignasby using normal python timing utilities, and data writing operations20:29
ignasor use python logging framework maybe20:30
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LumiereI'm heading home bbiab21:30
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