IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-05-16

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spowersth1a: ping00:37
th1ahi spowers.00:37
th1aWhat part of the world are you in?00:37
spowerswe meet again00:37
spowersMedford, OR00:37
th1aAh.  Is that near Portland?00:37
th1aI'm in Providence, RI.00:38
spowersit's a pretty long drive to portland00:38
spowersit's closer to ashland00:38
spowerseven though medford's bigger, more people seem to know about Ashland, because of the shakespeare festival00:38
th1aSo you're looking for a ZIS?00:38
spowersi'm starting to look into it, yeah00:38
spowerswe're setting up powerschool00:39
th1aJust for one school?00:39
spowersno, more like 8 schools00:39
spowerswell, 8 and a few alt-ed programs00:39
th1aSo you'd like to set up one multi school SIF Zone?00:40
spowerswe have this crufty old sis written in php that we're migrating away from.. there were never any dreams of putting a SIF agent on that thing00:40
spowersyeah, probably just one zone for the district00:40
th1aYou may know that there used to be an open source ZIS in Java.00:41
spowersright, i'm trying to track it down00:41
th1aThat's unmaintained, however.00:41
th1aIt is a real bullshit deal, if you'll excuse my French.00:42
spowersit looks like Matt Jezorek got the source code to OpenZIS from sifworks00:42
spowersand .. basically did nothing with it00:42
th1aSun developed it & turned it over to EduStructures, who promised to maintain it, but didn't.00:42
spowersfor 3 or 4 years00:42
spowersisn't ES selling a commercial ZIS?00:42
spowerslike, the major one?00:42
th1aIndeed, so it wasn't really in their interest to see an open source ZIS succeed.00:43
th1aMatt is now talking about trying to hack something together in PHP.00:44
spowersright, but that's an agent SDK00:44
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spowerswhich is an important piece00:44
spowersi might even be able to make good use of it with that crufty SIS i was talking about00:44
spowers.. for a month or two00:44
th1aWell, I think he wants to do a PHP ZIS, too, but it is all talk right now.00:44
th1aWhere did you hear about his PHP plans?00:45
th1aAh, it lives again.00:45
spowerslinked from the openzis project forum on tigris00:45
spowerswasn't there a week ago!00:45
spowers" Friday, 12 May 2006"00:45
spowersi emailed him this morning asking "where's the code?"00:46
spowerswhich really is my main question.. everwhere i've looked into SIF, it's all talk and no tarball00:46
th1aWell, we had a long chat about it several months ago, and I talked him into doing it in Python, but then nothing happened.00:46
spowersis all of this done in xml over http?00:47
th1aProgramming language is pretty much irrelevant.00:47
spowersit doesn't need to be a long-running process00:47
spowerswhich really opens up some possibilities00:47
th1aI wouldn't use PHP, but since I'm not really going to be doing any significant coding on it, I'm not going to nitpick.00:47
spowerswhat implementations are currently available?00:48
spowersedustructures has one, but who are they competing with?00:48
th1aOh, there is one in Java and one in .net.00:48
th1aThat I'm aware of.00:48
th1aBut nothing open source that runs.00:49
spowersso edustructures' is in java00:49
spowersbecause they got it from sif00:49
th1aI'm not sure exactly what the relationship is.  I don't think it is the same codebase, but I don't know.00:49
spowersif SIF has changed at all in the last 4 years, openzis is already useless00:50
th1aI think that's a safe assumption.00:51
th1aThe bottom line is that there isn't an open source ZIS at this point.00:51
th1aI have been doing some lobbying behind the scenes to try to generate some funding to develop one.00:52
spowersi should have known to look at wikipedia00:52
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spowersoh, you're this guy:
th1a  That's the other ZIS vendor I'm aware of.00:53
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th1aYes, that's me.00:53
spowersyou're probably right about the funding thing00:53
spowerssif sure is unlovable00:53
th1aI've spent a lot of time lately trying to convince open source folks that they should hold their nose and support it.00:54
th1aIt just cuts against their sense of aesthetics.00:54
spowersi've been researching this for a few days now00:54
spowersand i'm just shocked at the amount of bullshit surrounding this whole thing00:54
th1aOr open source SIF?00:55
spowersSIF in general00:55
spowerssifinfo looks like it was written by a marketing department00:55
spowersand i've attenuated my brain to filter out marketing00:55
th1aWithout any open source examples you can download and try out yourself, you're pretty much stuck going on faith.00:56
th1aSchoolTool isn't aimed only at the US, so SIF hasn't had a high priority,00:56
th1abut now we're closely related (via funding) to the Edubuntu distribution, which opens up some interesting possibilities.00:57
spowersi don't know a lot about how other state governments handle things like reporting, but in oregon, we've had this thing the polits call the 'database initiative' which basically means that we need to give the Oregon Dept of Education *tons* of info00:58
spowersthe less time we spend on re-entry, the better00:58
th1aBasically, I'd like to see a future version of Edubuntu that includes a pre-configured open source ZIS running right out of the box.00:58
spowersST is zope-based? so if there were an easy way to do a zif agent in python, you could probably make use of it00:58
th1aRight.  Zope 3.  It would just be a matter of creating new views.00:59
th1aMore or less.00:59
th1aBut without an open source ZIS to test against, it is tough to even get started.00:59
th1aI mean, you could, but it is a real disencentive.00:59
spowersjust digesting the info has been pretty tough01:07
spowersi've got more info from talking to you than i have in a day's research01:08
th1aIf you need something for production use in the next two years, you're going to be paying for it.01:10
spowershave you seen any working implementations of SIF?01:16
spowersactual users, i mean01:16
spowersnot referring to a ZIS implementation specifically01:16
th1aI have spoken to people who have actually used it, although not anyone who has actually set it up themselves.01:16
th1aI've never seen it work with my own eyes, though.01:16
spowersSIF is one of my many summer projects01:16
th1aAre you a programmer?01:17
spowersdo you think it would help to set up a wiki or something for SIF info with an eye towards making it more attractive for developers?01:17
spowersi like to pretend i am, but i'm employed as a database administrator01:17
spowerswhich basically makes it my job to migrate to powerschool01:18
th1aI see.01:18
spowersprogramming is involved, i've been doing php for years, but i'm getting into ruby lately01:18
th1aIs there any chance you'd want to try coding a ZIS?01:19
spowersand i have a python book, but haven't cracked it open yet01:19
th1a(I'm not looking for a commitment ;-)01:19
spowersi'd like to do my part to make it happen01:19
spowersbut when it comes down to actual implementation, i'm afraid i'd probably fall short01:19
th1aYes.  It is daunting.01:20
spowersi can try to make it less daunting by setting up a proper project infrastructure and getting info together01:20
spowersand while that's something basically anyone can do, i don't see anyone doing it01:21
th1aWell, Matt is ostensibly.01:21
th1aIf we got any code actually written, it would be a start.01:22
spowersit comes down to a time commitment in the end01:22
th1aWorking with Matt would make sense, but he seems a bit flaky about it.01:22
spowersno one's gonna commit to something they've personally got no use for01:22
th1aI think he has some business interest in it.01:22
spowerswho's got use for a ZIS? school districts, mostly01:23
spowersand who in a school district has time to develop software? not many people..01:23
th1aThe thing is, we could really improve the "Linux in education" story with ZIS integration.01:23
th1aIt also would be much easier for me to get funding if someone starts writing code, although doing it in PHP is less helpful on that front.01:24
spowersjust by nature of being apt-gettable, an open zis would have a serious leg up01:25
spowerswhat kind of sources are you looking at for funding? more from shuttleworth?01:25
th1aRight.  And Canonical/Ubuntu has the packaging chops to make the pieces fit together.01:25
th1aThis would be more of an Edubuntu project than a SchoolTool project.01:25
th1aBut also there's a whole different thread.01:26
spowersi'm actually an official debian packager, but those which i maintain are becoming obsolete and i've been thinking of resigning from the project01:26
th1aThere's a guy at the Stupski Foundation who is pursuing this kind of open source infrastructure work, too.01:26
spowersbut i keep looking for reasons to not do that01:26
th1aSteve Midgley01:27
th1aIs his name.01:27
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th1aOK.  I have to go make dinner, spowers.01:32
spowersok, enjoy01:32
th1aYou can find me here if you have more questions.01:32
spowersi'm gonna idle for a few weeks01:32
th1aAnd if for some insane reason you start writing some code, we could probably get some help.01:33
th1aBut there isn't much point in discussing it in the abstract.01:33
spowersi'm gonna put together a wiki for this stuff01:33
th1aOK.  Cool.01:33
spowerstry to get some info together01:33
th1aI'll link to it.01:33
th1aMy email is tom.hoffman@gmail.com01:33
spowersi just sent you an email so now you've got my address01:34
spowersbon appetit01:34
th1aspowers:  Here is a paper by Steve Midgley describing what he's trying to do:
spowersdo you mean: 'The Case for Open Markets in Education'?03:09
th1aOh, sorry.03:09
th1aI can also point you to a long thread on SIF I had with people from Sourceforge-UK.03:11
spowersplease do03:11
th1aIt is gripping reading, to be sure.03:11
spowersi'm adding any sif-related info i find to the wiki i just set up03:11
spowerspbwiki rocks, by the way03:11
spowerssaved me probably half an hour03:11
th1aYes, I'm looking at the wiki now.03:11
spowerswhen all i wanted to do was plug in links and not really set one up03:12
th1aMost of it is there.03:13
th1aSome in here, but this is a more general list.  We eventually moved the geekier threads to the other list:
th1aBecta, a UK commission that makes pronouncements about ed-tech stuff, is officially behind SIF now.03:15
spowersif the plan going forward is to have a PHP-based ZIS, i can write php code03:16
th1aThat's the best reason to do it in PHP ;-)03:16
spowershaha, i see your point ;)03:17
th1aThat's the main reason I'm not niggling about the language choice.03:17
spowersoh, maybe i read more sarcasm into that than i should have03:17
spowersi'm well aware of php's limits and downsides03:17
spowersseems like it's not trendy to write php anymore03:17
th1aA lot of curious PHP programmers have passed on SchoolTool because it is just too heavy for them.03:18
spowersit's got security issues and probably a broken object model03:18
th1aActually, it is too heavy for me, too.03:18
spowershey, how do you like your thinkpad?03:18
th1aI'm quite happy with it.03:18
spowersi'm thinking the next notebook i get, i'd like it to be very portable03:18
th1aIt is a bit rocky going to 100% Linux mode.03:18
spowersi was even looking at the way way low end03:18
th1aThe X60s is small and *fast*.03:19
spowersbasically all i care about is ssh and firefox03:19
th1aSo you can go really small.03:19
th1aAnd fairly cheap.03:19
th1aI partly just had to soothe my ego about giving up flashy Mac hardware.  Didn't want it to feel like a downgrade.03:20
spowersi bought a tibook g4 in 200203:20
spowersfelt bad about it ever since.. it was 3 grand03:20
spowersand i didn't use it all that much, opting to use my desktop instead03:21
spowersi don't really know what it is about that laptop, i just have a hard time getting along with it03:21
spowerswe were not meant to be03:21
th1aThey do have a certain personality.03:21
th1aI got a little stand for mine & mostly used it as a desktop replacement.03:22
spowersi use a 3 ring binder as a laptop stand for mine03:22
th1aIf I didn't splurge a little bit in my home office, I'd probably go insane.03:23
th1aThe cost of not leaving the house.03:23
spowersi can tell, from the speakers03:23
th1aThat's a long story actually.03:23
spowerswhat's freemis?03:24
th1aThe music teacher in the school I used to work at was friends with the wife of the CEO of Alesis, or something like that.03:24
th1aShe got this dj equipment donated, and then got bumped out of her job.03:24
th1aThere isn't much point in leaving several thousand dollars worth of dj equipment to whatever music teacher is assigned to your school.03:25
th1aSo I ended up with some of it.03:25
th1aDoes that make me a bad person?03:25
spowersno, it'd get instantly snatched up by someone, and that someone would probably not be the new music teacher03:25
spowers... if there even was a new music teacher03:26
spowers(i'm thinking probably a coach)03:26
spowersit makes you a lucky person03:26
th1aI didn't have those on my desk until yesterday, actually.03:26
th1aBut I'm quite happy with them here.03:26
spowersi know all about that kind of luck though, i've been doing school IT for a few years now and things trickle down every once in a while03:27
spowerssomeone donated an alphaserver03:27
th1aCertainly I've laid out enough cash to buy things for school.03:27
th1aI've got some donated Newtons, too ;-)03:27
spowersseems like school it departments are revolving doors for donations03:28
th1aI haven't kept them running well enough though.03:28
spowerssure, we'll give you a write-off for your obsolete crap03:28
spowersthen we'll pay to have it disposed of03:28
th1aYes, you get excited about donations for the first year or so, then it loses its lustre,03:28
spowers(or one of us will give it a home)03:28
th1aunless you come up with some system for processing it very efficiently.03:28
th1aWhich I think requires getting students to help.03:29
spowerswe used to have a program in oregon called STrUT03:29
spowerswhich was a computer recycling program03:29
spowersthere was a class devoted to taking donated parts and turning them into good machines03:30
spowersand in the beginning, those were all of our teacher machines and servers03:30
spowerswith a $0 tech budget, it's kind of the done thing03:30
th1aOh, so FreeMIS is an open source SIS in Ruby that this fellow in the UK is working on.03:30
spowersgood idea03:31
spowersSISs are tough though!03:31
spowersthey need to be very expansive and very solid03:31
spowerskind of a tough proposition03:32
th1aYes, we can confirm that SIS's are tough.03:32
th1aHarder than it looks.03:32
spowersanyway, i've gotta go do some errands03:32
spowersgood thread, i'm excited that it might be php03:33
th1aThat is the current plan.03:33
spowersyou can see how many other people are like, yeah php sucks but at least i can contribute03:33
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faassenwhat kind of datetime formatting does schooltool use? any code I should look at?12:30
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faassenfor instance, what in the attendance screens is responsible for rendering the date/time?12:42
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faassenignas: can you tell me how schooltool does datetime formatting?14:12
faassenignas: I tried to dig out the code the attendance screen used to render its date, but I got terribly lost. :)14:12
faassendate + time bit.14:13
faassenI'm sure there's all kinds of issues with timezones and such.14:13
faassenhm, perhaps I should rephrase my question.14:13
faassenwhat's the recommended way I do datetime formatting? :)14:13
ignasthere are dateformat and timeformat attributes in IPersonPreferences or IApplicationPreferences14:14
ignasyou sohuld probably use them14:14
ignasand convert the time to the viewers timezone (found in preferences too)14:14
faassenas in, methods?14:14
faassenokay, where shall I add a simple function that formats datetime the preferred schooltool way? :)14:15
ignaslook at CalendarEventView14:16
ignasi think it should give you some clues14:16
faassenthat only displays a date, doesn't it?14:16
faassenwell, and two times.14:16
ignasand is ugly (tm)14:17
faassenhm, what's ViewPreferences?14:18
ignasthough it would be very nice if someone would add locale support to that14:19
faassenoh, that uses PersonPreferences.14:19
ignasa class that either uses PersonPreferences or ApplicationPreferences if no one is logged in14:19
ignasor gah - returns some sensible defaults if it's unit tests14:20
faassenI saw.14:20
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faassenignas: what's the right way to make a datetime for storage?15:51
faassenignas: I saw some code in schooltool creating utcnow()15:51
faassenignas: but this creates a timezone naive ..15:51
faassenignas: timezone.15:51
faassenignas: I mean, timezone naive datetime.15:51
ignasfrom pytz import utc15:51
ignasfrom datetime import datetime15:51
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faassenso that's the right way to make a timestamp for storage?15:52
ignasthe 3 lines i have just wrote15:53
faassenokay, thanks.15:54
faassenand then for display, I convert it to the user preference's timezone, like:15:55
faassenis there any timezone issue with plain time objects?15:56
faassenor date objects?15:56
faassenI guess not..15:56
ignasplain time ?15:57
ignaswhere do you get these from ?15:58
faassenyou have time objects in the calendaring interface.15:58
faassenand you have a timeformat15:58
faassena timeformat preference.15:58
faassenI was just wondering what the implications are of timezones.15:58
faassento dates without times and times without dates.15:58
faassenbut I'll forget about that for now.15:59
ignastimeformat and dateformat are used to format the whole datetime even though you are displaying only the time portion16:01
ignasiirc you are not even calling to format it16:02
faassenanyway, I won't use that yet so I won't worry about it.16:02
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th1afaassen:  You shouldn't have to worry about timezones too much.16:14
faassenth1a: well, I want date times to display properly. :)16:17
th1aYes, but remember that all your events will take place in the school's timezone.16:18
th1aI mean, if you wanted to have, say, the date and time a student was enrolled.16:19
th1aYou wouldn't shift that when it was viewed by someone in a different timezone.16:19
faassenth1a: I'm just talking about a last modified datetime.16:20
faassenth1a: concerning enrollment you're right, that might do as a naive datetime, not sure.16:20
faassenth1a: but I track when an object was last modified, and I'd just rather get it right from the start.16:20
faassenth1a: I think I got it right now16:20
ignaswell - i would still avoid naive times16:24
ignasutcnow is simple enough16:24
ignasand is allways accurate16:25
faassenignas: for explicitly entered datetimes, you'd need to convert to UTC upon input as well.16:26
faassenignas: that presents with some complications.16:26
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6058:16:26
povbot/svn/commits: Add a standard way to render a datetime from preferences.16:26
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6059:16:27
povbot/svn/commits: * store modified datetimes as UTC.16:27
povbot/svn/commits: * display datetimes according to user preferences in column.16:27
th1aWhoops.  Time to start.16:32
th1aGood morning, folks.16:32
th1aI just thought of a permission not in the table--setting your own timezone.16:33
th1aAlso setting school settings.16:33
faassensetting your preferences.16:34
th1aYes your preferences & school preferences.16:34
faassenthere's also not a link in the UI that I could find to just 'my preferences', but I may have missed it.16:34
faasseninstead I have to find myself in the persons database.16:34
faassenoh, you can go to your own user.16:34
faassenso that is okay.16:34
th1aThe main way to get to yourself is in the red top bar.16:34
th1aAnyhow, we'll get back to that.16:36
th1aignas:  Update?16:36
th1asrichter:  Are you alive?16:36
ignasi am spiking a custom security policy at the momentr16:36
ignaskind of neat :)16:36
th1aWell, nice to give you something interesting to do for a change.16:37
ignasth1a: resource conflict resolution is finished16:37
ignasi might add some fixes to CSS16:37
th1aI do, by the way, appreciate your persistence in unraveling the least pleasant parts of SchoolTool.16:37
ignasbut you should see whether it works the way you want at the moment16:37
th1aI'll have a look.16:37
ignasi think we are done with bigfixing stories16:38
ignasi hope to have a simple working custom security model16:38
ignasthis evening16:38
ignaswhat should we do with the proposal and the deadline ?16:39
faassenignas: cool that it's neat, the security policy.16:39
th1aSo this is still using the default policy, but with new rules?16:39
ignasnope, the totaly custom16:39
faassenth1a: no, he's spiking a new policy with new rules.16:39
faassenignas: :)16:39
faassensorry, I do interpretation for you sometimes. :)16:39
th1aThe first 80% will be neat.  Last 20% not so much.16:39
faassenprobably. :)16:40
faassenbut that's normal.16:40
ignasas it got kind of hazy with all the alternatives and design16:40
ignasi will probably have a clear picture of what is involved tomorow morning16:40
th1aI guess the only thing we need to do on the proposal is strike the SchoolBell part and update the permissions part.16:40
th1aIf you can update the introductory text to reflect what you're actually doing, that'd be helpful too.16:41
th1aAlthough if you're in a coding groove, that could wait until tomorrow.16:41
th1aYes.  Revise your time estimate tomorrow.16:42
ignasth1a: the problem is that i am still designing and prototyping it at the moment but I'll try to come up with something in english soon16:42
th1aThanks ignas.16:43
faassenwell, I integrated the table stuff finally.16:43
faassenand started working on tweaking things. I'm not a great tweaker, so I need UI feedback.16:43
faassenI also tried to move eggs from Zope3/src to src today but failed in doing so, report is on the list. :)16:44
th1aOK.  Can I generate sample demographic data?16:44
faassennot a big disaster.16:44
faassenth1a: yes, that worked since you pointed it out.16:44
faassenth1a: I'm testing with sample demographics data now.16:44
th1aOK.  Excellent.16:44
faassenth1a: it's just, I need to know what is in the table. and I need to hook up the various forms into the screens for real.16:45
faassenth1a: I mean, I need to determine what should be in the table columns.16:45
faassenth1a: control things like initial sort order. I added a modified date system16:45
faassenth1a: and I think I'll make the default sort order of the table to show the last modified first.16:45
faassenth1a: so you see what you just added, typically. :)16:45
th1aAh.  That makes sense.16:45
faassenth1a: I still need to integrate the delete checkboxes and such.16:45
faassenth1a: I've spent quite a bit of time figuring out how the schooltool batching code works, how to reuse it.16:46
faassenth1a: I hope that the zc.table code I wrote can eventually be generalized (it's already fairly general, just not in in a reusable location)16:46
th1aI think that's one of the scarier corners of SchoolTool.16:46
faassenth1a: and used in other screens which display lists of stuff.16:46
th1abatching, that is.16:46
faassenth1a: well, I reuse the batching now. it could use more refactoring, but it sort of waits on porting over the overview screens.16:46
faassenth1a: which will take time.16:47
faassenI mean, we now have batched, tabular browsing with sorting of columns.16:47
faassenI also still need to expose a simple search screen.16:47
faassenI already prototyped it and it shouldn' be too hard.16:47
th1aOK.  Are you using a catalog now16:47
faassenonly in my prototype, not yet in schooltool.16:47
faassenI think that should be my next step.16:47
faassenanyway, one of the problems I have now with the UI is feeling a bit directionless.16:48
th1aI'll definitely be interested in seeing how that works.16:48
faassenI can do lots of cool stuff, display all kinds of data fields.16:48
faassenit's just I don't know which ones would be best.16:48
faassenokay, I shall work on search next then.16:48
th1aOK, I'll try to give you some direction.16:48
faassenthat's a good concrete goal.16:48
faassenth1a: that'd be very helpful.16:48
faassenI also still need to tweak the drop down boxes.16:48
faassenin various screens.16:49
faassenlike, ethnicity, etc.16:49
th1aIf you have specific questions you can also send them out to the schooltool (not schooltool-dev) list.16:49
faassenanother thing I could do soonish is a sample customized demographics package.16:49
th1aWe don't do enough of that, really, particularly coming directly from the developers.16:49
faassenlike, demographics_dutch, or whatever.16:49
th1aI'm more of a filter for these things than I need to be.16:49
faassenth1a: hm, I shall try to think of specific questions to ask about what people want from such a screen.16:49
faassenth1a: good point.16:49
faassenth1a: we really need to get the information flow going so people can say "I'd really like this"16:50
th1aAlthough unfortunately, we don't have a lot of school secretaries on the list.16:50
th1aSo when do you think you can have all this done? A week?  End of next week?16:50
faassenth1a: as none of this is technically complicated (it's complicated from an integration point of view, though), but it's hard to imagine what people really want. :)16:50
faassenth1a: okay, dropping the sample customization bit.16:51
faassenth1a: there are a number of bits..16:51
faassensearch (biggest item)16:51
faassenUI integration (endless item..)16:51
faassenI don't really know what "done" means with UI integration. :)16:52
faassenI also still have questions about schooltool.person versus schooltool.demographics.16:52
th1aIn terms of?16:52
faassenthe more I replace in schooltool.person, the more silly it is to have a separate schooltool.demographics.16:52
faassenI add features in schooltool.demographics now.16:53
faassenanyway, I did that because people complained I was hacking schooltool.person directly.16:53
faassenbut I need to take out more forms in schooltool.person, I expect.16:53
faassenanyway, it's a combination with not really knowing what the UI is supposed to do. :)16:54
faassenand the whole customization issue.16:54
faassenanyway, that's just something I need to figure out eventually, what goes where.16:54
faassenbut having a clear indication of what it means to have this "done" would be nice.16:55
faassenthere are requirements I recall about complicated add forms.16:55
th1aOK.  I think that's the essential point.16:55
faassenI haven't tackled add forms yet.16:55
faassenstill reuse the one in 'person'16:55
th1aWhat is "done."16:55
faassenI never got the picture feature to work.16:55
faassenis that a bug or am I doing something wrong? what to do with that?16:55
faassenyes, what is done is the essential point. :)16:55
th1aOh, you mean you never got the existing picture feature to work?16:56
th1aThe add forms aren't so much complicated as they need to fit together in a coherent way.16:57
faassen(yes, existing picture feature never worked for me)16:57
th1aOK  I think we need a concrete short-term plan to bring this home.16:57
faassenthe complication is mostly in coherence, what needs to be in the UI.16:58
th1aBy the end of next week.16:58
faassentechnically there isn't much that is particularly complicated.16:58
ignasfaassen: i think we require either jpeg or gif can't recall which one, maybe that was the problem16:58
faassenignas: could be, I don't know. it just didn't say anything and shows no picture. :)16:58
th1a1) Search;16:59
th1a2) Add forms;16:59
th1a3) Picture.17:00
th1aAnything else?17:01
faassenwell, links to sub forms.17:02
faassenwhat columns does the table have?17:02
faassenlots of possible UI tweaks.17:02
faassenin getting the right feedback.17:02
faassenhow do we manage things like etchnicities, things in the drop down lists.17:02
th1aOh right.17:02
th1aYou need actual lists for those.17:02
faassenI can hardcode the lists.17:03
faassenbut I don't know whether that is desired.17:03
faassenit's also pretty tricky to i18n things like gender, I suspect.17:03
faassenneed a special way to look up terms.17:03
faassenbasically i18ning drop down lists is tricky.17:03
th1aOh, crap, you mean like what terms show up if the student is a boy or girl?17:03
faassensorry, 'terms' is overloaded as a word.17:04
th1aMasculine and feminine forms?17:04
faassenI mean, there's this system for doing choice out of lists in Zope 3 schema.17:04
faassenand there are widgets to display those.17:04
faassenwhich need sources, and ITerms implementations, which know how to actually display things in sources.17:04
faassenand the ITerms implementation, I think, needs to be i18n aware so we can actually translate 'male' and 'female'.17:05
faassenI just think there are tons of such niggly annoying issues.17:05
th1aI'm not sure what you mean there.17:06
th1aAbout the ITerms implementations.17:06
faassenokay, to be brief, there is right now no way to localize the words 'male' and 'female' in the gender selection drop-down in the form.17:06
th1aMore i18n aware than the rest of SchoolTool?17:06
faassenI will need to do some implementation to make that localizable.17:06
faassenI don't know whether that is a priority, but it's an example of a potential issue and I suspect there are like, 20 more issues like that left and right. :)17:07
faassenanyway, let's just get concrete.17:07
faassenI shall start on search.17:07
faassenyou take a look at the UI and give me concrete UI suggestions.17:07
faassenwith priorities.17:07
th1aI'll look at the UI.17:07
faassenand I try to get those done.17:07
faassenI shall also try to keep a todo list and send it to the list.17:07
faassenof potential todos.17:08
faassenyou can prioritize those.17:08
th1aLet's see...17:08
faassenI do have most of this week reserved for ST, but other things do come up.17:08
faassenand next week should be reserved for ST too, but again, other things do come up.17:08
th1aWell, we need a deadline.17:09
faassenwell, besides, that, we need goals.17:09
faassenI feel rather lost.17:09
faassenI keep thinking, what shall I do next.17:09
faassenand then I can think of 30 things, get overwhelmed.17:09
srichterhi, I am here; I just got up; sorry17:09
faassenand I pick up yet another thing.17:09
th1aOK.  It is good to know that.17:09
th1aIt is hard for me to tell when people are at sea.17:09
faassenand I do bits and pieces, but I don't feel very productive like this.17:09
th1aFrom here.17:10
faassenunderstood. nothing is particularly complicated, except just figuring out how to make things work inside of schooltool, but I can't change that.17:10
th1ahi srichter.17:10
faassenit's just I feel a bit rudderless.17:11
th1aPerhaps we need to focus on the use cases.17:11
th1aThink about what's important to a school secretary.17:12
faassenI try to do that.17:12
faassenthe problem is I'm not a school secretary. :)17:12
th1aRight ;-)17:12
faassenI think about, well, it's important they see what they just added.17:12
faassenso let's add a modified date and sort it with that.17:13
ignasth1a: what will happen to the "manager" user with the new permission scheme ?17:13
th1aignas:  Oh yes.17:13
th1aLet's talk about that.17:13
ignasshould i just transfer his priviledges to the manager group17:13
faassenand I think, well, it should be important they have a nice UI flow where they are guided to the right screens step by step.17:13
faassenthe problem is I have trouble imagining what this looks like, and am constrainted by the schooltool UI.17:13
faassenwhich is a rather many-sided beast.17:13
faassenit's a stupid problem. anyway, I'll muddle through whatever, it's just I don't feel optimally effective.17:14
th1afaassen:  I don't want you to feel constrained by the SchoolTool UI.17:14
faassenI'd rather work on security policies, say. :)17:14
faassenth1a: yes, I know, I don't want to feel constrained by it either. :)17:15
th1aRight now, we're stuck in UI by inertia.  We have to break through that.17:15
ignasfaassen: too late, mwahahaha, the reinvent the bicycle task belongs to PoV now :)17:15
faassenth1a: I'm trying to innovate on the UI front with those tables, etc.17:15
faassenignas: I know. :)17:15
faassenth1a: to make it easy to set up stuff.17:15
th1aAh, anyhow... let's talk permissions.17:15
faassenanyway, I'm not a UI person and our UI people are busy. :)17:16
faassenI shall try to rope in someone to think about the UI.17:16
th1afaassen:  Just do your best.  I'm happy to have you.17:16
faassenth1a: sorry to be so negative.17:16
faassenth1a: I just know I can be a lot more effective as a programmer and I feel like I'm dragging.17:16
faassenth1a: it just makes me unhappy. i'm doing my best. :)17:16
th1afaassen:  SchoolTool seems to bring out negativity.  That's why it is good to have srichter around.17:17
faassenth1a: I'm trying to put my finger on what's wrong, anyway, I'll stop blabbing now and I'm trying to get there step by step. search is a good topic, I shall work on that. that's concrete.17:17
faassenth1a: yes, srichter is great. :)17:17
th1aignas:  The manager role has always seemed overly magical to me.17:17
* srichter blushes17:17
faassenI just don't like feeling stupid and slow. :)17:17
* faassen grins.17:17
th1aYes, I am hoping srichter will resume working on SchoolTool someday.17:17
faassenbut I'm glad to have srichter make me feel stupid and slow if that helps ST. :)17:18
faassenanyway, thanks for letting me vent.17:18
faassenI shall shut up now and work on search. :)17:18
srichterth1a: I am back on track again17:19
th1aActually, not knowing what people are actually thinking has been a problem for me, so I don't mind.17:19
srichterth1a: so we should have our meeting this week17:19
faassenth1a: okay, that's good. one thing I do is let people know what I'm thinking. too much. :)17:19
th1asrichter:  OK, let's set a time after the meeting.17:19
th1aignas:  I guess we need an "administration" group.17:20
ignaswe have like 2-3 of those17:20
th1aI'd call it that rather than "manager."17:20
th1aSo how do we want to organize that.17:21
th1aActually, what should we call it.17:21
ignaslike clerks, manager etc.17:21
th1aI don't want to do away with "clerks" "managers" "administrators"17:21
th1aBut those won't be the primary groups for this permissions scheme.17:22
ignasoh so we will have something like a superuser group17:23
th1aNeed a new name.17:23
ignaswith the default "manager" user in it17:23
th1aYeah, like superuser.17:23
th1aYes, let's keep it simple.17:25
ignasyou mean ?17:25
th1aIn this case something geeky like superuser is helpful to keep it from being confused with the other roles.17:25
th1apower users?17:26
ignasauditors :D17:26
* ignas reads too much Pratchett17:26
th1aI kind of like superusers.17:26
ignasso one more default group17:27
ignaswith users that can do everything17:27
ignasi am wondering17:27
ignaswhether they can do everything magically17:27
ignasor because we have granted them every possible permission17:28
th1aWell, bear in mind that in the future we will probably be splitting these superuser roles apart.17:28
th1aPerhaps taking more away from the clerks, for example.17:28
th1aBut this should be sufficient for ST 2006.17:28
th1aAnd right now that refining of the roles would be guesswork.17:29
ignasmagically means hardcoded17:29
ignasif you are in the superuser group - you can do everything17:29
ignaspermission checks are skipped17:29
th1aThat is probably bad in the long run.17:30
ignasi don't know, most systems (even zope) do have some magic fix it all, do it all user17:30
ignasunix root, Zope3 manager17:30
th1aOh.  I see, but this superuser group is too broad for that.17:30
ignasoh, i thought that superuser group was exactly the thing17:31
ignaslike the root of unix system17:31
th1aWell, that might be a problem with calling it "superuser."17:31
ignaswhy ?17:31
th1aWe should wrap up the "official" meeting.17:31
th1aAnd finish discussing this :-)17:31
* th1a bangs the virtual gravel.17:31
th1aHave a good week, folks!17:32
th1aI'm saying, if we call it "superuser" it implies "all powerful."17:32
th1aWhich isn't necessarily true.17:32
th1aI mean, it is nearly all powerful.17:33
ignasso the question is: Do we need a real superuser ?17:33
th1aFor emergencies?17:33
ignasif not, then what is the first user in the system and who sets up clerks, teachers, admins etc17:33
ignasemergencies and setup17:34
faassenI am the all powerful super user!17:34
th1aSo we're back to our current "manager."17:34
faassensuper user can go faster than a speeding bullet.17:34
mgedminthe irresistable force meets the immovable object!  tickets $5 each17:34
ignasthere are various solutions for that, like a command parameter that enables the "manager" when you run schooltool17:34
th1aI don't necessarily want the super user to be able to secretly change grades.17:34
ignasand if not passed, no one can log in as a manager17:35
ignasor something like that17:35
faassensuper user will find bugs faster, super user will crash the application faster17:35
faassennormally mild mannered Carl Wilson of the bookkeeping department17:35
faassenwhen he takes off his thick-rimmed glasses he becomes super user. :)17:35
ignas./ --enable-super-user manager:mgr17:36
th1aAnd you'd have to do that the first time you ran the app?17:36
ignasyes, unless you like looking at an empty "school calendar"17:37
th1aWe have had cases where it seemed like the current SchoolTool manager could do things that nobody else could do, even when they were given all the permissions.17:37
th1aWhich has been confusing.17:37
th1aI'd like to have that not happen in unexpected ways.17:37
ignasi see, but someone will have to have the permission to generate sample data17:38
ignaswho else if not the super user ?17:38
ignasunless we want all such functions only available as command line switches etc.17:38
th1aWe also don't want to confuse first time users.17:39
th1aFor an open source project, that first little download and test run is important.17:39
ignashow do you imagine setting up the schooltool for the first time ? many projects require you entering the password for the default super user17:40
ignaswhen the application is being run for the first time17:40
th1aI'm just saying, requiring a special set of startup flags might be a problem.17:41
th1aI'm not really sure.17:41
ignasjinty: ping17:44
ignaswhat are the kinds of actions that super user should not be capable of ?17:47
jintyignas: pong17:47
ignasjinty: would it be difficult to enter the default username/password when installing a debian package of schooltool?17:48
jintynot really17:48
jintyyou would have to set up a debconf frontend17:49
ignasand maybe you know ways of dealing with such issues like "initialization of a system", creating first users etc.17:49
jintyand then script in the postinst whatever needed to be done17:49
ignaswhat are simmilar to schooltool applications doing ?17:50
th1aNot knowing the default user:password is a big issue for Edubuntu & Debian users.17:50
th1aSo having it set in debconf would help.17:50
th1aAlthough I suppose the Edubuntu install would still bypass it.17:50
jintythe way we do it is just plain wrong17:50
jintyit is not very good to set up a server listening on an external port with a known password by default17:51
ignasmy point17:52
jintyhaving the user set the initial password on installation would be a good start17:52
jintyhaving a command line tool that root can use to set the super user password would also be nice17:53
jintyi.e. they have to have write access to the Data.fs for it to work17:53
jintythat way we start with no password and tell them to execute xyz as root to set it up17:53
jintymysql works in that way if you think about it17:54
ignasi can recall something about setting admin password and then using the admin user to create a user that you will actually use17:55
jintymy experience was running mysql as a priviliged user and then granting access to other users through SQL17:56
ignasjinty: maybe you know whether mysql/postgresql and the likes have a default do all/ be all users that can't have their priviledges taken away17:57
ignasor are these admin users ordinary users too, just with enough grants on everything17:57
jintyI'm not sure of the exact defaults, but i recall running mysql as root was enough to get initial access to the database17:59
jintyand running postgres as the postgres user I think17:59
ignaspitty we are web based and don't really have an admin console17:59
jintyIn schooltool I think it's quite simple, any user with write access to the Data.fs has access17:59
ignaswe can't determine that as the interface is a web browser18:00
ignassetting passwords is feasible18:00
jintyer, is there a reason why we cannot write simple scripts that access the Data.fs directly?18:01
jintyone to set the password, and another to pack the database would be nice18:01
ignasthe problem is that the admin user has to create persons18:01
ignasadd them to groups18:02
ignasset some default permissions in the access control panel18:02
ignashaving command line tools seems a bit crude for that18:03
jintyof course in the script you have the full configuration/zcml available18:03
ignaseven TRAC (trac defaults to an admin script for admin tasks) has a plugin that allows administrating everything through the web18:03
jintyyou could probably even startup the component architecture18:03
jintypacking the ZODB though the web using a cron job is not the "right way"18:04
ignashaving a command line schooltool might be even more complicated for some users, at the same time having a super user that can do everything with schooltool through the web is not very good either18:05
ignasth1a: any more ideas ?18:05
th1aI think having a superuser who overrides all permissions through the web interface is probably a bad idea.18:07
ignasat the same time having no one who can pack the ZODB through the web is a bad idea too18:08
ignasth1a: so some kind of command line tool would be better or worse than that ?18:09
mgedmincan we make Zope 3 listen on a unix domain socket?18:09
th1aYeah, what's up with that?18:09
mgedminand use an external script to tell it to pack the ZODB from the command line (or from a cron script)18:09
mgedminusing the Unix uid as the authentication token?18:09
mgedminthat's what PostgreSQL uses18:09
* jinty thinks that's a capital idea18:11
ignasok, so we know what to do with packing18:11
ignasand for the manager user18:11
ignasok, no magic18:11
ignasso if this manager user will remove himself from the superuser group18:11
ignaswe will not be able to help him18:12
ignasor if he will delete himself etc.18:12
th1aWell, even if the initial manager deletes himself from the superuser group, he has no magic powers that the other superusers don't have?18:17
ignasthe problem would be if there would be no users in the superuser group18:20
ignasi can shorcircuit permissions based on the group not just  user18:20
ignasthe plan i like best would be18:20
ignashaving initial user in a group that has normal grants (no magic) on everything18:21
ignasand a script that can find the default user, delete him and recreate him in the superuser group18:21
ignasin case you bork something18:21
ignasand the magic unix socket (or maybe even zope process view for packing up ZODB)18:22
ignasdon't know which one is better18:22
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6060:18:22
povbot/svn/commits: Add a simple menu on the top of the edit screens so we can navigate from one to another.18:22
th1aI don't know either.18:23
th1aThis is also something that could be kicked out to the mailing list (schooltool) for comment.18:23
ignasth1a: tell me when you will know what exactly is required by our users18:24
th1aWell, YOU could send a message to the mailing list.18:25
th1aHaving the developers communicate directly with the unwashed masses isn't a bad idea.18:26
ignasas soon as i'll finish up with the prototyping18:26
ignasth1a: eek, users18:26
th1aRouting everything through me isn't that efficient.18:26
ignasyes, I understand, but you have access to some users that are not using the mailing list, and you are a user yourself too18:28
th1aThis is a technical question I don't have much insight into.18:29
th1aHow it is implemented in the Debian packaging is key as well.18:29
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 6061:18:31
povbot/svn/commits: Refactored AttendancePanelView.18:31
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povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6062:18:38
povbot/svn/commits: Show selected menu item.18:38
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 6063:18:56
povbot/svn/commits: Some refactorings in StudentAttendanceView.18:56
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* jinty should sometime complete the schooltool 2006 debian package he started19:49
povbot/svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6064:19:59
povbot/svn/commits: Add in zc.catalog and hurry.query as egg dependencies, in preparation for search work.19:59
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ignasth1a: are you working on the leaner table ?20:38
th1aI sent out a copy last night.20:46
th1aDid you get that?20:46
th1aWith the meeting agenda?20:46
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 6065:21:08
povbot/svn/commits: Attendance panel: do not include unresolved section absences in the count if those section absences inherit from an unresolved homeroom absence.  This should make the numbers shown match the actual list of unresolved absences you get when you click on a person's name.21:08
ignasth1a: oh, sorry, missed the attachment21:20
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 6066:21:21
povbot/svn/commits: Get rid of remaining TODOs.21:21
ignasth1a: can you please add such things as school calendar, school attendance pannel, school preferences and top level containers21:24
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th1apcardune:  Are you guys having a meeting?23:45
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