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| spowers | th1a: ping | 00:37 |
|---|---|---|
| th1a | hi spowers. | 00:37 |
| th1a | What part of the world are you in? | 00:37 |
| spowers | we meet again | 00:37 |
| spowers | US/Pacific | 00:37 |
| spowers | Medford, OR | 00:37 |
| th1a | Ah. Is that near Portland? | 00:37 |
| th1a | I'm in Providence, RI. | 00:38 |
| spowers | it's a pretty long drive to portland | 00:38 |
| spowers | it's closer to ashland | 00:38 |
| spowers | even though medford's bigger, more people seem to know about Ashland, because of the shakespeare festival | 00:38 |
| th1a | So you're looking for a ZIS? | 00:38 |
| spowers | i'm starting to look into it, yeah | 00:38 |
| spowers | we're setting up powerschool | 00:39 |
| th1a | Just for one school? | 00:39 |
| spowers | no, more like 8 schools | 00:39 |
| spowers | well, 8 and a few alt-ed programs | 00:39 |
| th1a | So you'd like to set up one multi school SIF Zone? | 00:40 |
| spowers | we have this crufty old sis written in php that we're migrating away from.. there were never any dreams of putting a SIF agent on that thing | 00:40 |
| th1a | Right. | 00:40 |
| spowers | yeah, probably just one zone for the district | 00:40 |
| th1a | You may know that there used to be an open source ZIS in Java. | 00:41 |
| spowers | right, i'm trying to track it down | 00:41 |
| th1a | That's unmaintained, however. | 00:41 |
| th1a | It is a real bullshit deal, if you'll excuse my French. | 00:42 |
| spowers | it looks like Matt Jezorek got the source code to OpenZIS from sifworks | 00:42 |
| spowers | and .. basically did nothing with it | 00:42 |
| th1a | Sun developed it & turned it over to EduStructures, who promised to maintain it, but didn't. | 00:42 |
| spowers | for 3 or 4 years | 00:42 |
| spowers | isn't ES selling a commercial ZIS? | 00:42 |
| spowers | like, the major one? | 00:42 |
| th1a | Indeed, so it wasn't really in their interest to see an open source ZIS succeed. | 00:43 |
| th1a | Matt is now talking about trying to hack something together in PHP. | 00:44 |
| spowers | right, but that's an agent SDK | 00:44 |
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| spowers | which is an important piece | 00:44 |
| spowers | i might even be able to make good use of it with that crufty SIS i was talking about | 00:44 |
| spowers | .. for a month or two | 00:44 |
| th1a | Well, I think he wants to do a PHP ZIS, too, but it is all talk right now. | 00:44 |
| th1a | Where did you hear about his PHP plans? | 00:45 |
| spowers | http://www.sifsoft.com/ | 00:45 |
| th1a | Ah, it lives again. | 00:45 |
| spowers | linked from the openzis project forum on tigris | 00:45 |
| spowers | wasn't there a week ago! | 00:45 |
| spowers | " Friday, 12 May 2006" | 00:45 |
| spowers | i emailed him this morning asking "where's the code?" | 00:46 |
| spowers | which really is my main question.. everwhere i've looked into SIF, it's all talk and no tarball | 00:46 |
| th1a | Well, we had a long chat about it several months ago, and I talked him into doing it in Python, but then nothing happened. | 00:46 |
| spowers | is all of this done in xml over http? | 00:47 |
| th1a | Yes. | 00:47 |
| th1a | Programming language is pretty much irrelevant. | 00:47 |
| spowers | right | 00:47 |
| spowers | it doesn't need to be a long-running process | 00:47 |
| spowers | which really opens up some possibilities | 00:47 |
| th1a | I wouldn't use PHP, but since I'm not really going to be doing any significant coding on it, I'm not going to nitpick. | 00:47 |
| spowers | what implementations are currently available? | 00:48 |
| spowers | edustructures has one, but who are they competing with? | 00:48 |
| th1a | Oh, there is one in Java and one in .net. | 00:48 |
| th1a | That I'm aware of. | 00:48 |
| th1a | But nothing open source that runs. | 00:49 |
| spowers | so edustructures' is in java | 00:49 |
| spowers | because they got it from sif | 00:49 |
| spowers | er | 00:49 |
| spowers | adsf | 00:49 |
| spowers | sunb | 00:49 |
| spowers | -b | 00:49 |
| th1a | I'm not sure exactly what the relationship is. I don't think it is the same codebase, but I don't know. | 00:49 |
| spowers | if SIF has changed at all in the last 4 years, openzis is already useless | 00:50 |
| spowers | (maybe) | 00:51 |
| th1a | I think that's a safe assumption. | 00:51 |
| th1a | The bottom line is that there isn't an open source ZIS at this point. | 00:51 |
| th1a | I have been doing some lobbying behind the scenes to try to generate some funding to develop one. | 00:52 |
| spowers | i should have known to look at wikipedia | 00:52 |
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| spowers | oh, you're this guy: http://www.eschoolnews.com/eti/2005/09/001182.php | 00:52 |
| th1a | http://www.vcasel.com/ That's the other ZIS vendor I'm aware of. | 00:53 |
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| th1a | Yes, that's me. | 00:53 |
| spowers | you're probably right about the funding thing | 00:53 |
| spowers | sif sure is unlovable | 00:53 |
| th1a | Indeed. | 00:53 |
| th1a | I've spent a lot of time lately trying to convince open source folks that they should hold their nose and support it. | 00:54 |
| th1a | It just cuts against their sense of aesthetics. | 00:54 |
| spowers | i've been researching this for a few days now | 00:54 |
| spowers | and i'm just shocked at the amount of bullshit surrounding this whole thing | 00:54 |
| th1a | SIF? | 00:55 |
| th1a | Or open source SIF? | 00:55 |
| spowers | SIF in general | 00:55 |
| spowers | sifinfo looks like it was written by a marketing department | 00:55 |
| spowers | and i've attenuated my brain to filter out marketing | 00:55 |
| th1a | Without any open source examples you can download and try out yourself, you're pretty much stuck going on faith. | 00:56 |
| th1a | SchoolTool isn't aimed only at the US, so SIF hasn't had a high priority, | 00:56 |
| th1a | but now we're closely related (via funding) to the Edubuntu distribution, which opens up some interesting possibilities. | 00:57 |
| spowers | i don't know a lot about how other state governments handle things like reporting, but in oregon, we've had this thing the polits call the 'database initiative' which basically means that we need to give the Oregon Dept of Education *tons* of info | 00:58 |
| spowers | the less time we spend on re-entry, the better | 00:58 |
| th1a | Basically, I'd like to see a future version of Edubuntu that includes a pre-configured open source ZIS running right out of the box. | 00:58 |
| spowers | ST is zope-based? so if there were an easy way to do a zif agent in python, you could probably make use of it | 00:58 |
| th1a | Right. Zope 3. It would just be a matter of creating new views. | 00:59 |
| th1a | More or less. | 00:59 |
| th1a | But without an open source ZIS to test against, it is tough to even get started. | 00:59 |
| th1a | I mean, you could, but it is a real disencentive. | 00:59 |
| spowers | just digesting the info has been pretty tough | 01:07 |
| spowers | i've got more info from talking to you than i have in a day's research | 01:08 |
| th1a | If you need something for production use in the next two years, you're going to be paying for it. | 01:10 |
| spowers | have you seen any working implementations of SIF? | 01:16 |
| spowers | actual users, i mean | 01:16 |
| spowers | not referring to a ZIS implementation specifically | 01:16 |
| th1a | I have spoken to people who have actually used it, although not anyone who has actually set it up themselves. | 01:16 |
| th1a | I've never seen it work with my own eyes, though. | 01:16 |
| spowers | SIF is one of my many summer projects | 01:16 |
| th1a | Are you a programmer? | 01:17 |
| spowers | do you think it would help to set up a wiki or something for SIF info with an eye towards making it more attractive for developers? | 01:17 |
| spowers | i like to pretend i am, but i'm employed as a database administrator | 01:17 |
| spowers | which basically makes it my job to migrate to powerschool | 01:18 |
| th1a | I see. | 01:18 |
| spowers | programming is involved, i've been doing php for years, but i'm getting into ruby lately | 01:18 |
| th1a | Is there any chance you'd want to try coding a ZIS? | 01:19 |
| spowers | and i have a python book, but haven't cracked it open yet | 01:19 |
| th1a | (I'm not looking for a commitment ;-) | 01:19 |
| spowers | i'd like to do my part to make it happen | 01:19 |
| spowers | but when it comes down to actual implementation, i'm afraid i'd probably fall short | 01:19 |
| th1a | Yes. It is daunting. | 01:20 |
| spowers | i can try to make it less daunting by setting up a proper project infrastructure and getting info together | 01:20 |
| spowers | and while that's something basically anyone can do, i don't see anyone doing it | 01:21 |
| th1a | Well, Matt is ostensibly. | 01:21 |
| th1a | If we got any code actually written, it would be a start. | 01:22 |
| spowers | right | 01:22 |
| spowers | it comes down to a time commitment in the end | 01:22 |
| th1a | Working with Matt would make sense, but he seems a bit flaky about it. | 01:22 |
| spowers | no one's gonna commit to something they've personally got no use for | 01:22 |
| th1a | I think he has some business interest in it. | 01:22 |
| spowers | who's got use for a ZIS? school districts, mostly | 01:23 |
| spowers | and who in a school district has time to develop software? not many people.. | 01:23 |
| th1a | The thing is, we could really improve the "Linux in education" story with ZIS integration. | 01:23 |
| th1a | It also would be much easier for me to get funding if someone starts writing code, although doing it in PHP is less helpful on that front. | 01:24 |
| spowers | just by nature of being apt-gettable, an open zis would have a serious leg up | 01:25 |
| spowers | what kind of sources are you looking at for funding? more from shuttleworth? | 01:25 |
| th1a | Right. And Canonical/Ubuntu has the packaging chops to make the pieces fit together. | 01:25 |
| th1a | Yes. | 01:25 |
| th1a | This would be more of an Edubuntu project than a SchoolTool project. | 01:25 |
| th1a | But also there's a whole different thread. | 01:26 |
| spowers | i'm actually an official debian packager, but those which i maintain are becoming obsolete and i've been thinking of resigning from the project | 01:26 |
| th1a | There's a guy at the Stupski Foundation who is pursuing this kind of open source infrastructure work, too. | 01:26 |
| spowers | but i keep looking for reasons to not do that | 01:26 |
| th1a | Steve Midgley | 01:27 |
| th1a | Is his name. | 01:27 |
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| th1a | OK. I have to go make dinner, spowers. | 01:32 |
| spowers | ok, enjoy | 01:32 |
| spowers | thanks | 01:32 |
| th1a | You can find me here if you have more questions. | 01:32 |
| spowers | i'm gonna idle for a few weeks | 01:32 |
| th1a | And if for some insane reason you start writing some code, we could probably get some help. | 01:33 |
| th1a | But there isn't much point in discussing it in the abstract. | 01:33 |
| spowers | i'm gonna put together a wiki for this stuff | 01:33 |
| th1a | OK. Cool. | 01:33 |
| spowers | try to get some info together | 01:33 |
| th1a | I'll link to it. | 01:33 |
| spowers | rad. | 01:33 |
| th1a | My email is tom.hoffman@gmail.com | 01:33 |
| spowers | i just sent you an email so now you've got my address | 01:34 |
| spowers | bon appetit | 01:34 |
| th1a | spowers: Here is a paper by Steve Midgley describing what he's trying to do: http://numenor.lib.uic.edu/fmconference/search.php | 03:07 |
| spowers | do you mean: 'The Case for Open Markets in Education'? | 03:09 |
| th1a | Yes. | 03:09 |
| spowers | http://numenor.lib.uic.edu/fmconference/viewabstract.php?id=16 | 03:09 |
| th1a | Oh, sorry. | 03:09 |
| spowers | salright | 03:09 |
| th1a | I can also point you to a long thread on SIF I had with people from Sourceforge-UK. | 03:11 |
| spowers | please do | 03:11 |
| th1a | It is gripping reading, to be sure. | 03:11 |
| spowers | i'm adding any sif-related info i find to the wiki i just set up | 03:11 |
| spowers | pbwiki rocks, by the way | 03:11 |
| spowers | saved me probably half an hour | 03:11 |
| th1a | Yes, I'm looking at the wiki now. | 03:11 |
| spowers | when all i wanted to do was plug in links and not really set one up | 03:12 |
| th1a | http://groups.google.com/group/sf-uk-mias | 03:13 |
| th1a | Most of it is there. | 03:13 |
| th1a | Some in here, but this is a more general list. We eventually moved the geekier threads to the other list: http://groups.google.com/group/sf-uk-discuss | 03:14 |
| th1a | Becta, a UK commission that makes pronouncements about ed-tech stuff, is officially behind SIF now. | 03:15 |
| spowers | if the plan going forward is to have a PHP-based ZIS, i can write php code | 03:16 |
| th1a | That's the best reason to do it in PHP ;-) | 03:16 |
| spowers | haha, i see your point ;) | 03:17 |
| th1a | That's the main reason I'm not niggling about the language choice. | 03:17 |
| spowers | oh, maybe i read more sarcasm into that than i should have | 03:17 |
| spowers | i'm well aware of php's limits and downsides | 03:17 |
| spowers | seems like it's not trendy to write php anymore | 03:17 |
| th1a | A lot of curious PHP programmers have passed on SchoolTool because it is just too heavy for them. | 03:18 |
| spowers | it's got security issues and probably a broken object model | 03:18 |
| th1a | Actually, it is too heavy for me, too. | 03:18 |
| spowers | hey, how do you like your thinkpad? | 03:18 |
| th1a | I'm quite happy with it. | 03:18 |
| spowers | i'm thinking the next notebook i get, i'd like it to be very portable | 03:18 |
| th1a | It is a bit rocky going to 100% Linux mode. | 03:18 |
| spowers | i was even looking at the way way low end | 03:18 |
| th1a | The X60s is small and *fast*. | 03:19 |
| spowers | basically all i care about is ssh and firefox | 03:19 |
| th1a | So you can go really small. | 03:19 |
| spowers | right | 03:19 |
| th1a | And fairly cheap. | 03:19 |
| th1a | I partly just had to soothe my ego about giving up flashy Mac hardware. Didn't want it to feel like a downgrade. | 03:20 |
| spowers | haha | 03:20 |
| spowers | i bought a tibook g4 in 2002 | 03:20 |
| spowers | felt bad about it ever since.. it was 3 grand | 03:20 |
| spowers | and i didn't use it all that much, opting to use my desktop instead | 03:21 |
| spowers | (debian) | 03:21 |
| spowers | i don't really know what it is about that laptop, i just have a hard time getting along with it | 03:21 |
| spowers | we were not meant to be | 03:21 |
| th1a | They do have a certain personality. | 03:21 |
| th1a | I got a little stand for mine & mostly used it as a desktop replacement. | 03:22 |
| spowers | i use a 3 ring binder as a laptop stand for mine | 03:22 |
| th1a | If I didn't splurge a little bit in my home office, I'd probably go insane. | 03:23 |
| th1a | The cost of not leaving the house. | 03:23 |
| spowers | i can tell, from the speakers | 03:23 |
| th1a | That's a long story actually. | 03:23 |
| spowers | what's freemis? | 03:24 |
| th1a | The music teacher in the school I used to work at was friends with the wife of the CEO of Alesis, or something like that. | 03:24 |
| th1a | She got this dj equipment donated, and then got bumped out of her job. | 03:24 |
| th1a | There isn't much point in leaving several thousand dollars worth of dj equipment to whatever music teacher is assigned to your school. | 03:25 |
| th1a | So I ended up with some of it. | 03:25 |
| th1a | Does that make me a bad person? | 03:25 |
| spowers | no, it'd get instantly snatched up by someone, and that someone would probably not be the new music teacher | 03:25 |
| spowers | ... if there even was a new music teacher | 03:26 |
| th1a | Indeed. | 03:26 |
| spowers | (i'm thinking probably a coach) | 03:26 |
| spowers | it makes you a lucky person | 03:26 |
| th1a | I didn't have those on my desk until yesterday, actually. | 03:26 |
| th1a | But I'm quite happy with them here. | 03:26 |
| spowers | i know all about that kind of luck though, i've been doing school IT for a few years now and things trickle down every once in a while | 03:27 |
| spowers | someone donated an alphaserver | 03:27 |
| th1a | Certainly I've laid out enough cash to buy things for school. | 03:27 |
| th1a | I've got some donated Newtons, too ;-) | 03:27 |
| spowers | seems like school it departments are revolving doors for donations | 03:28 |
| th1a | I haven't kept them running well enough though. | 03:28 |
| spowers | sure, we'll give you a write-off for your obsolete crap | 03:28 |
| spowers | then we'll pay to have it disposed of | 03:28 |
| th1a | Yes, you get excited about donations for the first year or so, then it loses its lustre, | 03:28 |
| spowers | (or one of us will give it a home) | 03:28 |
| th1a | unless you come up with some system for processing it very efficiently. | 03:28 |
| th1a | Which I think requires getting students to help. | 03:29 |
| spowers | right | 03:29 |
| spowers | we used to have a program in oregon called STrUT | 03:29 |
| spowers | which was a computer recycling program | 03:29 |
| spowers | there was a class devoted to taking donated parts and turning them into good machines | 03:30 |
| spowers | and in the beginning, those were all of our teacher machines and servers | 03:30 |
| spowers | with a $0 tech budget, it's kind of the done thing | 03:30 |
| th1a | Oh, so FreeMIS is an open source SIS in Ruby that this fellow in the UK is working on. | 03:30 |
| spowers | hmm | 03:31 |
| th1a | Rails. | 03:31 |
| spowers | good idea | 03:31 |
| spowers | SISs are tough though! | 03:31 |
| spowers | they need to be very expansive and very solid | 03:31 |
| spowers | kind of a tough proposition | 03:32 |
| th1a | Yes, we can confirm that SIS's are tough. | 03:32 |
| th1a | Harder than it looks. | 03:32 |
| spowers | anyway, i've gotta go do some errands | 03:32 |
| spowers | bbl | 03:32 |
| th1a | Yes. | 03:32 |
| th1a | Bye. | 03:32 |
| spowers | good thread, i'm excited that it might be php | 03:33 |
| th1a | That is the current plan. | 03:33 |
| spowers | you can see how many other people are like, yeah php sucks but at least i can contribute | 03:33 |
| th1a | Yes. | 03:42 |
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| faassen | what kind of datetime formatting does schooltool use? any code I should look at? | 12:30 |
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| faassen | for instance, what in the attendance screens is responsible for rendering the date/time? | 12:42 |
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| faassen | ignas: can you tell me how schooltool does datetime formatting? | 14:12 |
| faassen | ignas: I tried to dig out the code the attendance screen used to render its date, but I got terribly lost. :) | 14:12 |
| faassen | date + time bit. | 14:13 |
| ignas | incorrectly | 14:13 |
| faassen | I'm sure there's all kinds of issues with timezones and such. | 14:13 |
| faassen | hm, perhaps I should rephrase my question. | 14:13 |
| faassen | what's the recommended way I do datetime formatting? :) | 14:13 |
| ignas | there are dateformat and timeformat attributes in IPersonPreferences or IApplicationPreferences | 14:14 |
| ignas | you sohuld probably use them | 14:14 |
| faassen | attributes? | 14:14 |
| ignas | and convert the time to the viewers timezone (found in preferences too) | 14:14 |
| faassen | as in, methods? | 14:14 |
| faassen | okay, where shall I add a simple function that formats datetime the preferred schooltool way? :) | 14:15 |
| ignas | look at CalendarEventView | 14:16 |
| ignas | i think it should give you some clues | 14:16 |
| faassen | that only displays a date, doesn't it? | 14:16 |
| faassen | well, and two times. | 14:16 |
| ignas | and is ugly (tm) | 14:17 |
| faassen | hm, what's ViewPreferences? | 14:18 |
| ignas | though it would be very nice if someone would add locale support to that | 14:19 |
| faassen | oh, that uses PersonPreferences. | 14:19 |
| ignas | a class that either uses PersonPreferences or ApplicationPreferences if no one is logged in | 14:19 |
| faassen | okay. | 14:20 |
| ignas | or gah - returns some sensible defaults if it's unit tests | 14:20 |
| faassen | yeah. | 14:20 |
| faassen | I saw. | 14:20 |
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| faassen | ignas: what's the right way to make a datetime for storage? | 15:51 |
| faassen | ignas: I saw some code in schooltool creating utcnow() | 15:51 |
| ignas | yep | 15:51 |
| faassen | ignas: but this creates a timezone naive .. | 15:51 |
| faassen | ignas: timezone. | 15:51 |
| faassen | ignas: I mean, timezone naive datetime. | 15:51 |
| ignas | from pytz import utc | 15:51 |
| ignas | from datetime import datetime | 15:51 |
| ignas | utc.localize(datetime.utcnow()) | 15:51 |
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| faassen | so that's the right way to make a timestamp for storage? | 15:52 |
| ignas | yes | 15:53 |
| ignas | the 3 lines i have just wrote | 15:53 |
| faassen | okay, thanks. | 15:54 |
| faassen | and then for display, I convert it to the user preference's timezone, like: | 15:55 |
| faassen | dt.astimezone(prefs.timezone) | 15:55 |
| faassen | is there any timezone issue with plain time objects? | 15:56 |
| faassen | or date objects? | 15:56 |
| faassen | I guess not.. | 15:56 |
| ignas | plain time ? | 15:57 |
| ignas | where do you get these from ? | 15:58 |
| faassen | you have time objects in the calendaring interface. | 15:58 |
| faassen | and you have a timeformat | 15:58 |
| faassen | a timeformat preference. | 15:58 |
| faassen | I was just wondering what the implications are of timezones. | 15:58 |
| faassen | to dates without times and times without dates. | 15:58 |
| faassen | but I'll forget about that for now. | 15:59 |
| ignas | timeformat and dateformat are used to format the whole datetime even though you are displaying only the time portion | 16:01 |
| ignas | iirc you are not even calling dt.date to format it | 16:02 |
| faassen | okay. | 16:02 |
| faassen | anyway, I won't use that yet so I won't worry about it. | 16:02 |
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| th1a | faassen: You shouldn't have to worry about timezones too much. | 16:14 |
| faassen | th1a: well, I want date times to display properly. :) | 16:17 |
| th1a | Yes, but remember that all your events will take place in the school's timezone. | 16:18 |
| th1a | I mean, if you wanted to have, say, the date and time a student was enrolled. | 16:19 |
| th1a | You wouldn't shift that when it was viewed by someone in a different timezone. | 16:19 |
| th1a | RIght? | 16:20 |
| faassen | th1a: I'm just talking about a last modified datetime. | 16:20 |
| faassen | th1a: concerning enrollment you're right, that might do as a naive datetime, not sure. | 16:20 |
| faassen | th1a: but I track when an object was last modified, and I'd just rather get it right from the start. | 16:20 |
| faassen | th1a: I think I got it right now | 16:20 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:21 |
| ignas | well - i would still avoid naive times | 16:24 |
| ignas | utcnow is simple enough | 16:24 |
| ignas | and is allways accurate | 16:25 |
| faassen | ignas: for explicitly entered datetimes, you'd need to convert to UTC upon input as well. | 16:26 |
| faassen | ignas: that presents with some complications. | 16:26 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6058: | 16:26 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Add a standard way to render a datetime from preferences. | 16:26 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6059: | 16:27 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * store modified datetimes as UTC. | 16:27 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * display datetimes according to user preferences in column. | 16:27 |
| th1a | Whoops. Time to start. | 16:32 |
| faassen | yes. | 16:32 |
| th1a | Good morning, folks. | 16:32 |
| ignas | hi | 16:32 |
| th1a | I just thought of a permission not in the table--setting your own timezone. | 16:33 |
| th1a | Also setting school settings. | 16:33 |
| faassen | setting your preferences. | 16:34 |
| th1a | Yes your preferences & school preferences. | 16:34 |
| faassen | there's also not a link in the UI that I could find to just 'my preferences', but I may have missed it. | 16:34 |
| faassen | instead I have to find myself in the persons database. | 16:34 |
| faassen | oh, you can go to your own user. | 16:34 |
| faassen | so that is okay. | 16:34 |
| th1a | The main way to get to yourself is in the red top bar. | 16:34 |
| faassen | right. | 16:35 |
| th1a | Anyhow, we'll get back to that. | 16:36 |
| th1a | ignas: Update? | 16:36 |
| th1a | srichter: Are you alive? | 16:36 |
| ignas | i am spiking a custom security policy at the momentr | 16:36 |
| ignas | kind of neat :) | 16:36 |
| th1a | Well, nice to give you something interesting to do for a change. | 16:37 |
| ignas | th1a: resource conflict resolution is finished | 16:37 |
| ignas | i might add some fixes to CSS | 16:37 |
| th1a | I do, by the way, appreciate your persistence in unraveling the least pleasant parts of SchoolTool. | 16:37 |
| ignas | but you should see whether it works the way you want at the moment | 16:37 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:37 |
| th1a | I'll have a look. | 16:37 |
| ignas | i think we are done with bigfixing stories | 16:38 |
| ignas | i hope to have a simple working custom security model | 16:38 |
| ignas | this evening | 16:38 |
| ignas | what should we do with the proposal and the deadline ? | 16:39 |
| faassen | ignas: cool that it's neat, the security policy. | 16:39 |
| th1a | So this is still using the default policy, but with new rules? | 16:39 |
| ignas | nope, the totaly custom | 16:39 |
| faassen | th1a: no, he's spiking a new policy with new rules. | 16:39 |
| faassen | ignas: :) | 16:39 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:39 |
| faassen | sorry, I do interpretation for you sometimes. :) | 16:39 |
| th1a | The first 80% will be neat. Last 20% not so much. | 16:39 |
| faassen | probably. :) | 16:40 |
| faassen | but that's normal. | 16:40 |
| ignas | as it got kind of hazy with all the alternatives and design | 16:40 |
| th1a | Yes. | 16:40 |
| ignas | i will probably have a clear picture of what is involved tomorow morning | 16:40 |
| th1a | I guess the only thing we need to do on the proposal is strike the SchoolBell part and update the permissions part. | 16:40 |
| th1a | If you can update the introductory text to reflect what you're actually doing, that'd be helpful too. | 16:41 |
| th1a | Although if you're in a coding groove, that could wait until tomorrow. | 16:41 |
| th1a | Yes. Revise your time estimate tomorrow. | 16:42 |
| ignas | th1a: the problem is that i am still designing and prototyping it at the moment but I'll try to come up with something in english soon | 16:42 |
| th1a | Right. | 16:42 |
| th1a | Thanks ignas. | 16:43 |
| th1a | faassen? | 16:43 |
| faassen | well, I integrated the table stuff finally. | 16:43 |
| faassen | and started working on tweaking things. I'm not a great tweaker, so I need UI feedback. | 16:43 |
| faassen | I also tried to move eggs from Zope3/src to src today but failed in doing so, report is on the list. :) | 16:44 |
| th1a | OK. Can I generate sample demographic data? | 16:44 |
| faassen | not a big disaster. | 16:44 |
| faassen | th1a: yes, that worked since you pointed it out. | 16:44 |
| faassen | th1a: I'm testing with sample demographics data now. | 16:44 |
| th1a | OK. Excellent. | 16:44 |
| faassen | th1a: it's just, I need to know what is in the table. and I need to hook up the various forms into the screens for real. | 16:45 |
| faassen | th1a: I mean, I need to determine what should be in the table columns. | 16:45 |
| faassen | th1a: control things like initial sort order. I added a modified date system | 16:45 |
| faassen | th1a: and I think I'll make the default sort order of the table to show the last modified first. | 16:45 |
| faassen | th1a: so you see what you just added, typically. :) | 16:45 |
| th1a | Ah. That makes sense. | 16:45 |
| faassen | th1a: I still need to integrate the delete checkboxes and such. | 16:45 |
| faassen | th1a: I've spent quite a bit of time figuring out how the schooltool batching code works, how to reuse it. | 16:46 |
| faassen | th1a: I hope that the zc.table code I wrote can eventually be generalized (it's already fairly general, just not in in a reusable location) | 16:46 |
| th1a | I think that's one of the scarier corners of SchoolTool. | 16:46 |
| faassen | th1a: and used in other screens which display lists of stuff. | 16:46 |
| th1a | batching, that is. | 16:46 |
| faassen | th1a: well, I reuse the batching now. it could use more refactoring, but it sort of waits on porting over the overview screens. | 16:46 |
| faassen | th1a: which will take time. | 16:47 |
| faassen | I mean, we now have batched, tabular browsing with sorting of columns. | 16:47 |
| faassen | I also still need to expose a simple search screen. | 16:47 |
| faassen | I already prototyped it and it shouldn' be too hard. | 16:47 |
| th1a | OK. Are you using a catalog now | 16:47 |
| th1a | ? | 16:47 |
| faassen | only in my prototype, not yet in schooltool. | 16:47 |
| faassen | I think that should be my next step. | 16:47 |
| faassen | anyway, one of the problems I have now with the UI is feeling a bit directionless. | 16:48 |
| th1a | I'll definitely be interested in seeing how that works. | 16:48 |
| faassen | I can do lots of cool stuff, display all kinds of data fields. | 16:48 |
| faassen | it's just I don't know which ones would be best. | 16:48 |
| faassen | okay, I shall work on search next then. | 16:48 |
| th1a | OK, I'll try to give you some direction. | 16:48 |
| faassen | that's a good concrete goal. | 16:48 |
| faassen | th1a: that'd be very helpful. | 16:48 |
| faassen | I also still need to tweak the drop down boxes. | 16:48 |
| faassen | in various screens. | 16:49 |
| faassen | like, ethnicity, etc. | 16:49 |
| th1a | If you have specific questions you can also send them out to the schooltool (not schooltool-dev) list. | 16:49 |
| faassen | another thing I could do soonish is a sample customized demographics package. | 16:49 |
| th1a | We don't do enough of that, really, particularly coming directly from the developers. | 16:49 |
| faassen | like, demographics_dutch, or whatever. | 16:49 |
| th1a | I'm more of a filter for these things than I need to be. | 16:49 |
| faassen | th1a: hm, I shall try to think of specific questions to ask about what people want from such a screen. | 16:49 |
| faassen | th1a: good point. | 16:49 |
| faassen | th1a: we really need to get the information flow going so people can say "I'd really like this" | 16:50 |
| th1a | Although unfortunately, we don't have a lot of school secretaries on the list. | 16:50 |
| th1a | So when do you think you can have all this done? A week? End of next week? | 16:50 |
| faassen | th1a: as none of this is technically complicated (it's complicated from an integration point of view, though), but it's hard to imagine what people really want. :) | 16:50 |
| faassen | th1a: okay, dropping the sample customization bit. | 16:51 |
| faassen | th1a: there are a number of bits.. | 16:51 |
| faassen | search (biggest item) | 16:51 |
| faassen | UI integration (endless item..) | 16:51 |
| faassen | I don't really know what "done" means with UI integration. :) | 16:52 |
| faassen | I also still have questions about schooltool.person versus schooltool.demographics. | 16:52 |
| th1a | In terms of? | 16:52 |
| faassen | the more I replace in schooltool.person, the more silly it is to have a separate schooltool.demographics. | 16:52 |
| faassen | I add features in schooltool.demographics now. | 16:53 |
| th1a | Ah. | 16:53 |
| faassen | anyway, I did that because people complained I was hacking schooltool.person directly. | 16:53 |
| faassen | but I need to take out more forms in schooltool.person, I expect. | 16:53 |
| th1a | Hm. | 16:53 |
| faassen | anyway, it's a combination with not really knowing what the UI is supposed to do. :) | 16:54 |
| faassen | and the whole customization issue. | 16:54 |
| faassen | anyway, that's just something I need to figure out eventually, what goes where. | 16:54 |
| faassen | but having a clear indication of what it means to have this "done" would be nice. | 16:55 |
| faassen | there are requirements I recall about complicated add forms. | 16:55 |
| th1a | OK. I think that's the essential point. | 16:55 |
| faassen | I haven't tackled add forms yet. | 16:55 |
| faassen | still reuse the one in 'person' | 16:55 |
| th1a | What is "done." | 16:55 |
| faassen | I never got the picture feature to work. | 16:55 |
| faassen | is that a bug or am I doing something wrong? what to do with that? | 16:55 |
| faassen | yeah. | 16:55 |
| faassen | yes, what is done is the essential point. :) | 16:55 |
| th1a | Oh, you mean you never got the existing picture feature to work? | 16:56 |
| th1a | The add forms aren't so much complicated as they need to fit together in a coherent way. | 16:57 |
| faassen | (yes, existing picture feature never worked for me) | 16:57 |
| th1a | OK I think we need a concrete short-term plan to bring this home. | 16:57 |
| faassen | the complication is mostly in coherence, what needs to be in the UI. | 16:58 |
| th1a | By the end of next week. | 16:58 |
| faassen | technically there isn't much that is particularly complicated. | 16:58 |
| ignas | faassen: i think we require either jpeg or gif can't recall which one, maybe that was the problem | 16:58 |
| faassen | ignas: could be, I don't know. it just didn't say anything and shows no picture. :) | 16:58 |
| th1a | So: | 16:59 |
| th1a | 1) Search; | 16:59 |
| th1a | 2) Add forms; | 16:59 |
| th1a | 3) Picture. | 17:00 |
| th1a | Anything else? | 17:01 |
| faassen | well, links to sub forms. | 17:02 |
| faassen | what columns does the table have? | 17:02 |
| faassen | lots of possible UI tweaks. | 17:02 |
| faassen | in getting the right feedback. | 17:02 |
| faassen | how do we manage things like etchnicities, things in the drop down lists. | 17:02 |
| th1a | Oh right. | 17:02 |
| faassen | ethnicities. | 17:02 |
| th1a | You need actual lists for those. | 17:02 |
| faassen | I can hardcode the lists. | 17:03 |
| faassen | but I don't know whether that is desired. | 17:03 |
| faassen | it's also pretty tricky to i18n things like gender, I suspect. | 17:03 |
| faassen | need a special way to look up terms. | 17:03 |
| faassen | basically i18ning drop down lists is tricky. | 17:03 |
| th1a | Oh, crap, you mean like what terms show up if the student is a boy or girl? | 17:03 |
| faassen | sorry, 'terms' is overloaded as a word. | 17:04 |
| th1a | Masculine and feminine forms? | 17:04 |
| faassen | I mean, there's this system for doing choice out of lists in Zope 3 schema. | 17:04 |
| faassen | and there are widgets to display those. | 17:04 |
| faassen | which need sources, and ITerms implementations, which know how to actually display things in sources. | 17:04 |
| faassen | and the ITerms implementation, I think, needs to be i18n aware so we can actually translate 'male' and 'female'. | 17:05 |
| faassen | I just think there are tons of such niggly annoying issues. | 17:05 |
| th1a | I'm not sure what you mean there. | 17:06 |
| th1a | About the ITerms implementations. | 17:06 |
| faassen | okay, to be brief, there is right now no way to localize the words 'male' and 'female' in the gender selection drop-down in the form. | 17:06 |
| th1a | More i18n aware than the rest of SchoolTool? | 17:06 |
| faassen | I will need to do some implementation to make that localizable. | 17:06 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:07 |
| faassen | I don't know whether that is a priority, but it's an example of a potential issue and I suspect there are like, 20 more issues like that left and right. :) | 17:07 |
| faassen | anyway, let's just get concrete. | 17:07 |
| faassen | I shall start on search. | 17:07 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:07 |
| faassen | you take a look at the UI and give me concrete UI suggestions. | 17:07 |
| faassen | with priorities. | 17:07 |
| th1a | I'll look at the UI. | 17:07 |
| faassen | and I try to get those done. | 17:07 |
| faassen | I shall also try to keep a todo list and send it to the list. | 17:07 |
| faassen | of potential todos. | 17:08 |
| faassen | you can prioritize those. | 17:08 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:08 |
| th1a | Let's see... | 17:08 |
| faassen | I do have most of this week reserved for ST, but other things do come up. | 17:08 |
| faassen | and next week should be reserved for ST too, but again, other things do come up. | 17:08 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:08 |
| th1a | Well, we need a deadline. | 17:09 |
| faassen | well, besides, that, we need goals. | 17:09 |
| faassen | I feel rather lost. | 17:09 |
| faassen | I keep thinking, what shall I do next. | 17:09 |
| faassen | and then I can think of 30 things, get overwhelmed. | 17:09 |
| srichter | hi, I am here; I just got up; sorry | 17:09 |
| faassen | and I pick up yet another thing. | 17:09 |
| th1a | OK. It is good to know that. | 17:09 |
| th1a | It is hard for me to tell when people are at sea. | 17:09 |
| faassen | and I do bits and pieces, but I don't feel very productive like this. | 17:09 |
| th1a | From here. | 17:10 |
| faassen | understood. nothing is particularly complicated, except just figuring out how to make things work inside of schooltool, but I can't change that. | 17:10 |
| th1a | hi srichter. | 17:10 |
| faassen | it's just I feel a bit rudderless. | 17:11 |
| th1a | Perhaps we need to focus on the use cases. | 17:11 |
| th1a | Think about what's important to a school secretary. | 17:12 |
| faassen | sure. | 17:12 |
| faassen | I try to do that. | 17:12 |
| faassen | the problem is I'm not a school secretary. :) | 17:12 |
| th1a | Right ;-) | 17:12 |
| faassen | I think about, well, it's important they see what they just added. | 17:12 |
| faassen | so let's add a modified date and sort it with that. | 17:13 |
| ignas | th1a: what will happen to the "manager" user with the new permission scheme ? | 17:13 |
| th1a | ignas: Oh yes. | 17:13 |
| th1a | Let's talk about that. | 17:13 |
| ignas | should i just transfer his priviledges to the manager group | 17:13 |
| faassen | and I think, well, it should be important they have a nice UI flow where they are guided to the right screens step by step. | 17:13 |
| faassen | the problem is I have trouble imagining what this looks like, and am constrainted by the schooltool UI. | 17:13 |
| faassen | which is a rather many-sided beast. | 17:13 |
| faassen | it's a stupid problem. anyway, I'll muddle through whatever, it's just I don't feel optimally effective. | 17:14 |
| th1a | faassen: I don't want you to feel constrained by the SchoolTool UI. | 17:14 |
| faassen | I'd rather work on security policies, say. :) | 17:14 |
| faassen | th1a: yes, I know, I don't want to feel constrained by it either. :) | 17:15 |
| th1a | Right now, we're stuck in UI by inertia. We have to break through that. | 17:15 |
| ignas | faassen: too late, mwahahaha, the reinvent the bicycle task belongs to PoV now :) | 17:15 |
| faassen | th1a: I'm trying to innovate on the UI front with those tables, etc. | 17:15 |
| faassen | ignas: I know. :) | 17:15 |
| faassen | th1a: to make it easy to set up stuff. | 17:15 |
| th1a | Ah, anyhow... let's talk permissions. | 17:15 |
| faassen | anyway, I'm not a UI person and our UI people are busy. :) | 17:16 |
| faassen | I shall try to rope in someone to think about the UI. | 17:16 |
| th1a | faassen: Just do your best. I'm happy to have you. | 17:16 |
| faassen | th1a: sorry to be so negative. | 17:16 |
| faassen | th1a: I just know I can be a lot more effective as a programmer and I feel like I'm dragging. | 17:16 |
| faassen | th1a: it just makes me unhappy. i'm doing my best. :) | 17:16 |
| th1a | faassen: SchoolTool seems to bring out negativity. That's why it is good to have srichter around. | 17:17 |
| faassen | th1a: I'm trying to put my finger on what's wrong, anyway, I'll stop blabbing now and I'm trying to get there step by step. search is a good topic, I shall work on that. that's concrete. | 17:17 |
| faassen | th1a: yes, srichter is great. :) | 17:17 |
| th1a | ignas: The manager role has always seemed overly magical to me. | 17:17 |
| * srichter blushes | 17:17 | |
| faassen | I just don't like feeling stupid and slow. :) | 17:17 |
| * faassen grins. | 17:17 | |
| th1a | Yes, I am hoping srichter will resume working on SchoolTool someday. | 17:17 |
| faassen | but I'm glad to have srichter make me feel stupid and slow if that helps ST. :) | 17:18 |
| faassen | anyway, thanks for letting me vent. | 17:18 |
| faassen | I shall shut up now and work on search. :) | 17:18 |
| srichter | th1a: I am back on track again | 17:19 |
| th1a | Actually, not knowing what people are actually thinking has been a problem for me, so I don't mind. | 17:19 |
| srichter | th1a: so we should have our meeting this week | 17:19 |
| faassen | th1a: okay, that's good. one thing I do is let people know what I'm thinking. too much. :) | 17:19 |
| th1a | srichter: OK, let's set a time after the meeting. | 17:19 |
| srichter | yep | 17:20 |
| th1a | ignas: I guess we need an "administration" group. | 17:20 |
| ignas | we have like 2-3 of those | 17:20 |
| ignas | ;) | 17:20 |
| th1a | I'd call it that rather than "manager." | 17:20 |
| th1a | So how do we want to organize that. | 17:21 |
| th1a | Hm. | 17:21 |
| th1a | Actually, what should we call it. | 17:21 |
| ignas | like clerks, manager etc. | 17:21 |
| th1a | I don't want to do away with "clerks" "managers" "administrators" | 17:21 |
| th1a | But those won't be the primary groups for this permissions scheme. | 17:22 |
| th1a | Hm... | 17:23 |
| ignas | oh so we will have something like a superuser group | 17:23 |
| th1a | Need a new name. | 17:23 |
| ignas | with the default "manager" user in it | 17:23 |
| th1a | Yeah, like superuser. | 17:23 |
| th1a | Hm... | 17:24 |
| th1a | Yes, let's keep it simple. | 17:25 |
| ignas | you mean ? | 17:25 |
| mgedmin | sysadmins? | 17:25 |
| mgedmin | supervisors? | 17:25 |
| th1a | In this case something geeky like superuser is helpful to keep it from being confused with the other roles. | 17:25 |
| th1a | power users? | 17:26 |
| ignas | auditors :D | 17:26 |
| * ignas reads too much Pratchett | 17:26 | |
| th1a | I kind of like superusers. | 17:26 |
| mgedmin | +1 | 17:26 |
| ignas | +1 | 17:26 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:27 |
| ignas | so one more default group | 17:27 |
| ignas | with users that can do everything | 17:27 |
| ignas | i am wondering | 17:27 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:27 |
| ignas | whether they can do everything magically | 17:27 |
| ignas | or because we have granted them every possible permission | 17:28 |
| th1a | Magically? | 17:28 |
| th1a | Well, bear in mind that in the future we will probably be splitting these superuser roles apart. | 17:28 |
| th1a | Perhaps taking more away from the clerks, for example. | 17:28 |
| th1a | But this should be sufficient for ST 2006. | 17:28 |
| th1a | And right now that refining of the roles would be guesswork. | 17:29 |
| ignas | magically means hardcoded | 17:29 |
| ignas | if you are in the superuser group - you can do everything | 17:29 |
| ignas | permission checks are skipped | 17:29 |
| th1a | That is probably bad in the long run. | 17:30 |
| ignas | i don't know, most systems (even zope) do have some magic fix it all, do it all user | 17:30 |
| ignas | unix root, Zope3 manager | 17:30 |
| th1a | Oh. I see, but this superuser group is too broad for that. | 17:30 |
| ignas | oh, i thought that superuser group was exactly the thing | 17:31 |
| ignas | like the root of unix system | 17:31 |
| th1a | Well, that might be a problem with calling it "superuser." | 17:31 |
| ignas | why ? | 17:31 |
| th1a | We should wrap up the "official" meeting. | 17:31 |
| th1a | And finish discussing this :-) | 17:31 |
| ignas | :) | 17:31 |
| * th1a bangs the virtual gravel. | 17:31 | |
| th1a | Have a good week, folks! | 17:32 |
| th1a | I'm saying, if we call it "superuser" it implies "all powerful." | 17:32 |
| th1a | Which isn't necessarily true. | 17:32 |
| ignas | oh | 17:32 |
| th1a | I mean, it is nearly all powerful. | 17:33 |
| ignas | so the question is: Do we need a real superuser ? | 17:33 |
| th1a | For emergencies? | 17:33 |
| ignas | if not, then what is the first user in the system and who sets up clerks, teachers, admins etc | 17:33 |
| ignas | emergencies and setup | 17:34 |
| faassen | I am the all powerful super user! | 17:34 |
| th1a | So we're back to our current "manager." | 17:34 |
| faassen | super user can go faster than a speeding bullet. | 17:34 |
| mgedmin | the irresistable force meets the immovable object! tickets $5 each | 17:34 |
| ignas | there are various solutions for that, like a command parameter that enables the "manager" when you run schooltool | 17:34 |
| th1a | I don't necessarily want the super user to be able to secretly change grades. | 17:34 |
| ignas | and if not passed, no one can log in as a manager | 17:35 |
| ignas | or something like that | 17:35 |
| faassen | super user will find bugs faster, super user will crash the application faster | 17:35 |
| faassen | normally mild mannered Carl Wilson of the bookkeeping department | 17:35 |
| faassen | when he takes off his thick-rimmed glasses he becomes super user. :) | 17:35 |
| ignas | ./schooltool-server.py --enable-super-user manager:mgr | 17:36 |
| th1a | And you'd have to do that the first time you ran the app? | 17:36 |
| ignas | yes, unless you like looking at an empty "school calendar" | 17:37 |
| th1a | We have had cases where it seemed like the current SchoolTool manager could do things that nobody else could do, even when they were given all the permissions. | 17:37 |
| th1a | Which has been confusing. | 17:37 |
| th1a | I'd like to have that not happen in unexpected ways. | 17:37 |
| ignas | i see, but someone will have to have the permission to generate sample data | 17:38 |
| ignas | who else if not the super user ? | 17:38 |
| ignas | unless we want all such functions only available as command line switches etc. | 17:38 |
| th1a | We also don't want to confuse first time users. | 17:39 |
| th1a | For an open source project, that first little download and test run is important. | 17:39 |
| ignas | how do you imagine setting up the schooltool for the first time ? many projects require you entering the password for the default super user | 17:40 |
| ignas | when the application is being run for the first time | 17:40 |
| th1a | I'm just saying, requiring a special set of startup flags might be a problem. | 17:41 |
| th1a | I'm not really sure. | 17:41 |
| ignas | jinty: ping | 17:44 |
| ignas | what are the kinds of actions that super user should not be capable of ? | 17:47 |
| jinty | ignas: pong | 17:47 |
| ignas | jinty: would it be difficult to enter the default username/password when installing a debian package of schooltool? | 17:48 |
| jinty | not really | 17:48 |
| jinty | you would have to set up a debconf frontend | 17:49 |
| ignas | and maybe you know ways of dealing with such issues like "initialization of a system", creating first users etc. | 17:49 |
| jinty | and then script in the postinst whatever needed to be done | 17:49 |
| ignas | what are simmilar to schooltool applications doing ? | 17:50 |
| th1a | Not knowing the default user:password is a big issue for Edubuntu & Debian users. | 17:50 |
| th1a | So having it set in debconf would help. | 17:50 |
| th1a | Although I suppose the Edubuntu install would still bypass it. | 17:50 |
| jinty | the way we do it is just plain wrong | 17:50 |
| jinty | it is not very good to set up a server listening on an external port with a known password by default | 17:51 |
| ignas | my point | 17:52 |
| jinty | having the user set the initial password on installation would be a good start | 17:52 |
| jinty | having a command line tool that root can use to set the super user password would also be nice | 17:53 |
| jinty | i.e. they have to have write access to the Data.fs for it to work | 17:53 |
| jinty | that way we start with no password and tell them to execute xyz as root to set it up | 17:53 |
| jinty | mysql works in that way if you think about it | 17:54 |
| ignas | oh | 17:54 |
| ignas | i can recall something about setting admin password and then using the admin user to create a user that you will actually use | 17:55 |
| jinty | my experience was running mysql as a priviliged user and then granting access to other users through SQL | 17:56 |
| ignas | jinty: maybe you know whether mysql/postgresql and the likes have a default do all/ be all users that can't have their priviledges taken away | 17:57 |
| ignas | or are these admin users ordinary users too, just with enough grants on everything | 17:57 |
| jinty | I'm not sure of the exact defaults, but i recall running mysql as root was enough to get initial access to the database | 17:59 |
| jinty | and running postgres as the postgres user I think | 17:59 |
| ignas | pitty we are web based and don't really have an admin console | 17:59 |
| jinty | In schooltool I think it's quite simple, any user with write access to the Data.fs has access | 17:59 |
| ignas | we can't determine that as the interface is a web browser | 18:00 |
| ignas | setting passwords is feasible | 18:00 |
| jinty | er, is there a reason why we cannot write simple scripts that access the Data.fs directly? | 18:01 |
| jinty | one to set the password, and another to pack the database would be nice | 18:01 |
| ignas | the problem is that the admin user has to create persons | 18:01 |
| ignas | add them to groups | 18:02 |
| ignas | set some default permissions in the access control panel | 18:02 |
| ignas | having command line tools seems a bit crude for that | 18:03 |
| jinty | of course in the script you have the full configuration/zcml available | 18:03 |
| ignas | even TRAC (trac defaults to an admin script for admin tasks) has a plugin that allows administrating everything through the web | 18:03 |
| jinty | you could probably even startup the component architecture | 18:03 |
| jinty | packing the ZODB though the web using a cron job is not the "right way" | 18:04 |
| ignas | having a command line schooltool might be even more complicated for some users, at the same time having a super user that can do everything with schooltool through the web is not very good either | 18:05 |
| ignas | th1a: any more ideas ? | 18:05 |
| th1a | I think having a superuser who overrides all permissions through the web interface is probably a bad idea. | 18:07 |
| ignas | at the same time having no one who can pack the ZODB through the web is a bad idea too | 18:08 |
| ignas | :/ | 18:08 |
| ignas | th1a: so some kind of command line tool would be better or worse than that ? | 18:09 |
| mgedmin | can we make Zope 3 listen on a unix domain socket? | 18:09 |
| th1a | Yeah, what's up with that? | 18:09 |
| mgedmin | and use an external script to tell it to pack the ZODB from the command line (or from a cron script) | 18:09 |
| mgedmin | using the Unix uid as the authentication token? | 18:09 |
| mgedmin | that's what PostgreSQL uses | 18:09 |
| * jinty thinks that's a capital idea | 18:11 | |
| ignas | ok, so we know what to do with packing | 18:11 |
| ignas | and for the manager user | 18:11 |
| ignas | ok, no magic | 18:11 |
| ignas | so if this manager user will remove himself from the superuser group | 18:11 |
| ignas | we will not be able to help him | 18:12 |
| ignas | or if he will delete himself etc. | 18:12 |
| th1a | Well, even if the initial manager deletes himself from the superuser group, he has no magic powers that the other superusers don't have? | 18:17 |
| ignas | the problem would be if there would be no users in the superuser group | 18:20 |
| ignas | i can shorcircuit permissions based on the group not just user | 18:20 |
| ignas | the plan i like best would be | 18:20 |
| ignas | having initial user in a group that has normal grants (no magic) on everything | 18:21 |
| ignas | and a script that can find the default user, delete him and recreate him in the superuser group | 18:21 |
| ignas | in case you bork something | 18:21 |
| ignas | and the magic unix socket (or maybe even zope process view for packing up ZODB) | 18:22 |
| ignas | don't know which one is better | 18:22 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6060: | 18:22 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Add a simple menu on the top of the edit screens so we can navigate from one to another. | 18:22 |
| th1a | I don't know either. | 18:23 |
| th1a | This is also something that could be kicked out to the mailing list (schooltool) for comment. | 18:23 |
| ignas | th1a: tell me when you will know what exactly is required by our users | 18:24 |
| th1a | Well, YOU could send a message to the mailing list. | 18:25 |
| th1a | ignas. | 18:26 |
| ignas | ok | 18:26 |
| th1a | Having the developers communicate directly with the unwashed masses isn't a bad idea. | 18:26 |
| ignas | as soon as i'll finish up with the prototyping | 18:26 |
| th1a | Sure. | 18:26 |
| ignas | th1a: eek, users | 18:26 |
| th1a | Routing everything through me isn't that efficient. | 18:26 |
| ignas | yes, I understand, but you have access to some users that are not using the mailing list, and you are a user yourself too | 18:28 |
| th1a | Yes. | 18:28 |
| th1a | This is a technical question I don't have much insight into. | 18:29 |
| th1a | How it is implemented in the Debian packaging is key as well. | 18:29 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * mg committed revision 6061: | 18:31 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Refactored AttendancePanelView. | 18:31 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6062: | 18:38 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Show selected menu item. | 18:38 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * mg committed revision 6063: | 18:56 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Some refactorings in StudentAttendanceView. | 18:56 |
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| * jinty should sometime complete the schooltool 2006 debian package he started | 19:49 | |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * faassen committed revision 6064: | 19:59 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Add in zc.catalog and hurry.query as egg dependencies, in preparation for search work. | 19:59 |
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| ignas | th1a: are you working on the leaner table ? | 20:38 |
| th1a | I sent out a copy last night. | 20:46 |
| th1a | Did you get that? | 20:46 |
| th1a | With the meeting agenda? | 20:46 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * mg committed revision 6065: | 21:08 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Attendance panel: do not include unresolved section absences in the count if those section absences inherit from an unresolved homeroom absence. This should make the numbers shown match the actual list of unresolved absences you get when you click on a person's name. | 21:08 |
| ignas | th1a: oh, sorry, missed the attachment | 21:20 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * mg committed revision 6066: | 21:21 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Get rid of remaining TODOs. | 21:21 |
| ignas | th1a: can you please add such things as school calendar, school attendance pannel, school preferences and top level containers | 21:24 |
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| th1a | pcardune: Are you guys having a meeting? | 23:45 |
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