IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2006-01-24

srichterth1a: ok00:00
th1aGot it?00:00
srichterok, do you want to discuss any part?00:06
srichterWhat else should be included?00:06
th1aWell, I've got to go somewhere right now... I should probably look at it tomorrow... actually, put sample data for the gradebook in there for one thing.00:12
th1aAnd sample data for the terms, etc.00:13
th1aAnd do the gradebook sample data first.00:13
th1aSo if you want something to start, you can do that.00:14
srichterok, cool00:15
th1amake fake assignments for every section every three days or so.00:15
th1aDo the whole first semester.00:16
srichterevery three day? Wow!00:16
th1aEvaluate all of them.00:16
th1aThis is high school.00:16
th1aSo homeworks (pass/fail)00:16
th1aquizzes & tests.00:16
th1aIn some reasonable proportion.00:17
th1aWe won't find the UI & performance problems with small data sets.00:18
th1aOK, I gotta run.00:19
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5683:13:20
povbot/svn/commits: Added a utilites subdirectory for random useful little scripts.13:20
povbot/svn/commits: Added to utilities.13:20
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erchachewhy on wizard timetable on schooltool....has two types, week day and cycle day?16:08
erchacheand how i can delete a timetable?16:10
erchachedelete button arent made?16:10
mgedminyou can't16:10
mgedminit's a limitation16:10
erchacheand why?16:10
mgedminthings will break if you delete a timetable schema when there are classes scheduled according to it16:11
mgedminwe could write an event handler to clean up after that16:11
mgedminbut this got postponed16:11
mgedminbecause tom wanted some new features first16:11
erchachei undestand it16:11
erchachebut i dont know how to finish my howto... :-(16:12
erchachearrgghh i dont know what to do!16:18
erchacheim going to test ubuntu ppc on my powerbook....bye16:20
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srichterare we meeting?16:35
srichterth1a: meeting?16:35
srichtermgedmin: metting?16:35
srichtermgedmin: meeting?16:35
* mgedmin is here16:35
srichterwell, so maybe we can start with a topic that Tom is not so involved in anyways16:36
srichterTom and I brainstormed a bit and we have made the following observations:16:36
srichter- Archiving is academic year centric; in other words I should be able to look up all archived data from a certain year16:37
srichter- Archiving happens on containers16:37
srichter- Archiving needs to hide archived objects without making them inaccessible16:38
srichter(in other words, they do not have to be accessible via the common API, but must be accessible somehow)16:38
srichterSo here is my initial thought:16:38
srichterimplement an IArchiving interface; implementations are adapters to IContainer16:39
srichterIArchiving provides a simple mapping/container API from academic_year -> adapterd container type instance16:40
srichtersome additional API is provided to make the archiving task easier16:40
srichterfor storage I am not so sure: should we store the archive as an attribute annotation or in a separate database making use of ZODB's multi-database support16:41
srichterThe questions are now: Is the archiving API sufficient? Any ideas about storage?16:41
mgedminwhat about relationships?16:41
* srichter awaits comments16:41
srichtermgedmin: they are just references nothing should happen to them16:42
mgedminall the application containers are implemented on top of relationships16:42
mgedminum, no they aren't16:42
srichterthat's the beauty of the ZODB; as long as there is a reference the ZODB does not care what other references exist16:43
srichterthey are not?16:43
mgedminanyway, do you want the 'students' group to contain just the people that are currently students, or all people (archived or not) that were students?16:43
srichterI think in that particular case I would remove the student from the group first16:43
mgedminmy basic point is this: the relationships also change over time; how should archiving deal with that?16:44
srichterit would be part of archiving to change the relationshipd16:44
srichterit would be part of archiving to change the relationships16:44
ignaswhat about section/student/teacher relationships ? current students should not see the Sections of the last year, and they allways have relationships with their old sections16:44
srichterignas: sections are created from scratch every term16:44
ignasbut old ones are left in place16:45
srichterin the case of sections, yes16:45
ignasbecause else attendance would not really work out iirc16:45
srichterno, old sections are not left in palce16:45
srichterhere is an example:16:45
srichterMath 101 meets for the entire academic year 2005/200616:46
srichterthus section Math101-A is assigned the term year 2005/200616:46
srichterthis section will be archived after the academic year is over16:46
srichterfor 2006/2007 a new section will be created16:46
srichter(Math101-A 2006/2007 edition)16:47
srichterthe point is that we (a) cannot reuse sections, because data will be changing, and (b) we need to keep a reference of the old section, so that the references in attendance data and grades will not break16:48
ignasi am not talking about reusing them16:48
srichtermgedmin: when I talk about archiving I am talking more about what are we doing with the data to be archived, not so much the workflow attached to that task16:48
srichtermgedmin: though you made a good point and I will add this to the requirements and try to come up with tasks that must be done beofre archiving, such as unregistering a withdrawn/graduated student from the Students group16:49
mgedminseems sane16:51
mgedminhow do you deal with name conflicts?16:51
mgedmine.g. we had a teacher with username 'john' in 2004, and another one in 200616:51
srichtervery good question that I also thought about already16:52
srichterusually name uniqueness is not that interesting, *except* for persons16:52
mgedminand for URLs16:53
mgedminalthough you could come up with sequential numbers for URLs16:53
srichterso we have to handle this case in a special way and keep a list of usernames16:53
srichteryeah, that would work16:53
mgedminarchived users cannot log in, I assume16:53
srichterI agree16:53
srichterI wonder whether the archive by year distinction makes so much sense for persons16:54
srichterit certainly makes sense for students, but for admins and teachers?16:54
srichterI guess we could consider everyone who quit in a given year as archived in that year16:54
srichterso you would have: persons/archived/2006/john16:55
srichterwhat about storage16:57
srichteras I have recently learned, the ZODB keeps an index of all objects in memory16:57
srichterthis is kinda bad, once we get several years of data16:57
srichter(we have seen how slow Zope comes up with a term worth of attendance already)16:58
srichterit would be nice, if the archived objects would not always be in memory (their index I mean)16:58
srichterI thought of ZODB's multi-database support16:59
srichterdo you think its worth persuing?16:59
srichterdo you think its worth pursuing?16:59
mgedminI'm not all that familiar with ZODB and large amounts of data17:00
mgedminif you used multiple databases, would ZODB keep all of their indexes in memory?17:00
th1aHi.  Sorry I'm late.17:00
ignassrichter, what about the scenario - Persons A and B are members of Tennis Group,  they have references (relationships) to the group, and the group has references to them too, if we'd archive either A or B would the relationship be destroyed ?17:00
srichtermgedmin: only if I opnened it17:00
srichtermgedmin: another choice might be directory storage, which I heard does not have the index problem17:01
ignasor is there some way to archive old relationships17:01
srichterignas: if the relationship is sotred by object reference, no17:01
ignassrichter, but then ['groups]['tennis'].members will list both A and B17:02
mgedminthere was an interesting thread about Really Large amounts of data and Zope 317:02
srichterignas: object references are kept among several databases17:02
mgedminpeople seemed to suggest RDBMSes17:02
srichterignas: part of the archiving *workflow* (not that data mechanism) should be to remvoe some of those relationships17:03
ignassrichter, i was thinking of archiving relationships, but if removing relationships is good ...17:03
srichtermgedmin: yeah I read that, but I don't think our data will be that large; if can run on the ZODB, we can too :-)17:03
srichterignas: I think a lot of relationshpis are very temporal; once you graduate, you are not a member of the Tennis Team anymore17:04
srichterignas: if you want to keep a list of all previous tennis team members, then the application will have to add support for that17:05
th1aRight.  Groups in schools often dissolve at the end of the year.17:05
th1aBut managing *groups* from year to year isn't such a high priority.17:05
srichterI think it 95% of the cases an entry in the students historical records will be sufficient:17:05
srichterI think it 95% of the cases an entry in the students historical records will be sufficient: "Person A was member of the Tennis team iduring the academic year 2005/200617:06
th1aI don't think that's even a strict requirement at this point.17:07
* mgedmin is wondering about timetables and terms17:07
srichtermgedmin: I think this is a non-problem, since the references are not destroyed17:08
mgedminobjects that have timetables refer to timetable schemas and terms by name17:09
mgedminnot by direct reference17:10
srichterooh, good to know!!!17:10
mgedminand a bit painful17:10
mgedminobjects have a dict of timetables17:10
mgedminand the key of that dict is a string "%s.%s" % (term_name, timetable_schema_name)17:10
mgedminit is one reason why timetable/term deletion is disabled in the web UI17:10
srichterwhich object is that?17:10
mgedminthe ITimetabled adapter, I think17:11
srichterI think I will have to rewrite this to use a keyreference17:12
srichter(IKeyReference(term), IKeyReference(timetable_schema))17:12
mgedminthat might be a Good Idea17:13
mgedminI wish we knew about IKeyReferences back then, when we implemented timetabling17:14
mgedmindid IKeyReference even exist back then17:14
mgedminI remember we had a hacky PersistentKeysDict and PersistentKeysSet17:14
mgedminand had to push some feature into ZODB to make it implementable17:14
srichterit came with the intid utility17:14
srichterwhich was after 3.0 but before 3.117:14
srichter(I think)17:15
mgedminah, ok, I think we worked on timetabling before 3.017:15
srichterI fell in love with keyrefeence 2 weeks ago :-)17:15
mgedminI wish people would blog about interesting and useful, but not widely-known parts of Zope 317:15
srichterand its so easy to write a stub for it too :-)17:16
srichterth1a: other topics?17:18
th1aOh, speeding up the attendance form?17:18
th1aIt seems like the sparklines take a long time to generate with a full set of sample data.17:19
mgedminhaven't actually tried17:21
mgedminbut I believe you :-)17:22
th1aWell, take a look at that.17:22
srichterI guess you could make a cache of the images already generated17:23
srichterand make the key the string representation of the sparklines17:23
mgedminthat's a really good idea17:23
srichter'..^V...^.....V' or something like that17:24
mgedminactually, I think it is not the time to render images that takes time17:24
mgedminbut the extraction of attendance data17:24
mgedminthe DayAttendance probably still has a linear search for every single query17:24
* mgedmin checks17:24
srichterthen the caching is a bit more involved17:24
mgedminyep, the change to a BTree wasn't checked in yet17:24
mgedminah, sample data in trunk doesn't have daily attendances yet17:25
mgedminso if sparklines are slow, there's another reason17:25
srichtermgedmin: I wonder whether we should seriously think about implementing an index/catalog facility for SchoolTool17:25
srichterwe are trying very hard to avoid it, but maybe it is time17:26
ignassrichter, won't any kind of such facility increase problems that we are already experiencing with zopdb size ?17:27
* mgedmin likes 'zopdb'17:27
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srichterignas: well, as far as the people on the mailing lists said, size does not slow the ZODB down17:28
srichter(other than on startup)17:28
srichterbut clearly searching does17:28
mgedmin(if your system starts swapping, you *will* notice slowdowns)17:28
* mgedmin tried to generate some sample data, and got an Out Of Disk Space exception17:29
srichterswapping: true17:29
srichterthat's the reason I do not want archived data necessarily in a open DB all the time17:30
mgedmindo you have concrete suggestions where an index might improve performance?17:30
srichternot right now, but here is an example17:31
srichterI used to store evaluations in a container using a (artificial) name17:32
srichterlater I noticed that the system would be dog slow, if I do not key by the activity (assignment, homework, exam, ...)17:32
srichterso in this case I changed the implementation17:32
srichterwhich I think was the right choice17:33
srichterbut I also could have solved the issue with an index17:33
srichtersomething that could easily come up is the search by a specific type of activity or date/time17:34
srichterI would immediately need an index to make it efficient17:34
srichterthe thing is that the cost of developing an index at this point is fairly large and thus we shy away from it :-)17:34
th1aI guess there isn't a heck of a lot of reason to discuss it in the abstract.17:34
th1aWe'll know when we've hit a wall.17:35
srichterbtw, is there any time scheduled to make relationships not a linear search17:37
th1aNot specifically.17:37
srichterI have a strange feeling that this could increase the speed our app as well17:38
th1aProbably, although I think the hard part is things like attendance events and grades that have hundreds of thousands of instances, which mostly don't use relationships.17:39
mgedminiirc relationships never showed up high when we profiled various tasks17:39
ignassrichter, profile, it's the only way to find out what would make ST faster17:40
* mgedmin sometimes wonders if he is taking Don't Optimize Now and Profile Before Optimization too far17:40
mgedmin(probably not)17:40
mgedminyep, currently calendar events and attendance have the most objects17:40
th1aWell, let's not drag this out.  Definitely take a look at how the attendance form is performing with the sample data.17:42
mgedmin43 seconds from pressing Ctrl+R until the "loading" animation stops in Firefox17:55
mgedminI'd call that "slow"17:55
mgedmin/home/mg/src/schooltool/Zope3/src/zope/tal/ DeprecationWarning: /home/mg/src/schooltool/src/schooltool/course/browser/ (line 22): Automatic translation of message id's is deprecated and will be removed in 3.3. Use explicit i18n:translate="" instead.17:55
* th1a upon returning from his shower, bangs the virtual gavel.17:57
th1asrichter:  I need the easiest way to add comments to the gradebook.17:58
th1aOne comment per student per section will do.17:58
srichterth1a: make a comments adapter for ISection17:59
srichterth1a: make the comments a mapping from username to the comments17:59
srichterth1a: make the comments a mapping from username to the comment17:59
th1aa mapping = a dictionary?18:00
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srichterth1a: yeah19:04
srichterth1a: but use a persisting dictionary19:04
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th1asrichter:  ayt?20:25
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5684:20:35
povbot/svn/commits: Opening new windows is impolite, unless i specifically ask for it.20:35
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th1aI see it is a bit warmer in Vilnius today.20:51
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5685:21:06
povbot/svn/commits: Shut up another deprecation warning.21:06
povbot/svn/commits: Will someone please make section.label into a property that returns zope.i18n.translate(self.label)?  Or would that be a Bad Idea?21:06
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povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5686:21:42
povbot/svn/commits: Fix ftest.21:42
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5687:22:11
povbot/svn/commits: I think we're supposed to use i18n:domain="schooltool" nowadays?22:11
povbot/svn/commits: Please tell me if I'm wrong.22:11
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5688:22:14
povbot/svn/commits: Another case of i18n:domain.22:14
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jelknerhi all23:01
jelknerpcardune: welcome to second semester23:02
jelkneranybody here?23:02
ffsnoopyim here23:02
jelknerhas anyone else said anything?23:03
jelkneri see pcardune logged in, but he is not responding23:03
pcardunei'm here23:03
pcarduneI was just looking at another monitor (playing with opengl and c++ (yucky)23:03
jelknerth1a: hi tom!23:04
th1aHi jelkner.23:04
jelknerok, let's figure out where we are.23:04
jelkneri upgraded the test server to dapper23:04
jelknerjinty isn't here23:04
jelknerso we can't talk about a package23:05
jelknerwhen can i begin testing?23:05
jelknerand how?23:05
pcardunejelkner: do you have a fresh check out?23:05
pcarduneThe proper way you should test is directly from the svn repository23:06
jelknerno i don't23:06
jelknerwe could do that now23:06
pcarduneI don't think it is worth making a new package every week23:06
jelknergood point23:06
pcarduneyes, let's do that now23:06
jelkneri should make you an account on the server...23:07
jelknerpcardune i presume?23:07
pcarduneit would also be a good idea to write up a small howto for setting up a sandbox from svn23:07
pcardunejelkner: you could do that, unless you want to know how to set it up yourself23:07
jelknerwell, if you tell me step by step now23:07
jelknerwe will have the log to use for notes23:07
th1aThere's not much to it.23:08
pcardunego to the folder you want above where you want the cando root to be...23:08
pcardunethen, "svn co"23:08
pcardunewoops, i meant...23:09
pcardunethen, "svn co cando"23:09
jelknerhold on...23:09
jelknerwhere do i want the cando root to be?23:09
jelkneri guess in my home directory, yes?23:09
jelknerbtw.  the new version of gobby support sobby23:09
jelknera server version23:10
jelknerso we can run sobby on a server and all connect to it with gobby23:10
pcarduneoh, cool23:10
pcarduneyeah, home directory is fine23:10
jelknerquestion: should mitchell have an account on this box too?23:11
jelknerpcardune: login to using pcardune and our favorite fruit ;-)23:11
pcardunehe he23:12
jelknerffsnoopy, do the same, with ffsnoopy as user23:12
jelknerthen please change your passwords23:12
pcarduneok, i'm in23:12
ffsnoopywait, where is this?23:14
jelknerpcardune: lets say i want cando in my $HOME/cando2006 directory, how do i check out?23:16
pcardune"svn co cando2006" (in your $HOME directory)23:16
jelknerhold on...23:17
jelknernow how does this work, is zope3 being installed?23:18
jelknerit's done23:18
jelknerAt revision 45323:19
pcardunethat's correct23:19
jelknerso, do i need zope3 first?23:19
pcardunenow, go into the cando2006 directory23:19
pcarduneand type make23:19
pcardune(this checks out schooltool)23:19
jelknernote: i don't see a Make file23:20
jelknermake: *** No targets specified and no makefile found.  Stop.23:20
jelknerperhaps you mean trunk?23:20
pcarduneoh, right... woops23:21
pcardunego into the trunk23:21
jelknerwait, while we are righting up directions23:21
pcardunethe original svn command should have been "svn co cando2006"23:21
jelknerwhy don't i try again, doing this: "svn co cando2006"23:21
pcardunebecause you don't need the other directories23:21
jelknerlet me try again23:21
jelknera lot faster23:22
jelknernow let me try make23:22
jelkneris schooltool part of zope yet? (or is it still the other way around?)23:23
pcardunestill the other way around (it's going to stay that way)23:24
pcardunethere isn't the need23:24
jelkneri thought it was going to change, so you could add schooltool to your zope323:24
pcarduneth1a can better explain the reasoning behind this23:25
jelknerwell, it means if you already have zope3, you run it twice23:25
jelknerand doesn't it also mean it will be harder to take advantage of other zope3 addons?23:25
jelknerlike the fsck editor, for example?23:25
th1aWe had been supporting adding SchoolTool as a Zope 3 content object, but23:25
th1athat takes extra development time, which we don't really have.23:26
th1aIt shouldn't be a big deal to make it possible again in the future, but we have no pressing reason to do it now.23:26
jelknerok, i'll by that23:26
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th1aIt doesn't have much impact on how easy or difficult it is to integrate other Zope 3 objects.23:27
jelknerok, make finished23:27
pcardunenow type "cd SchoolTool"23:27
pcarduneand run make again23:27
pcardune(this checks out zope3 and builds it)23:27
jelknerflint: hi paul!23:28
jelknerq: will a single 'svn up' now get all 3?23:29
jelkneror do i need to:23:29
jelkner1. cd $HOME/cando200623:29
jelkner2. svn up23:29
jelkner3. cd SchoolTool23:29
jelkner4. svn up23:29
jelkner5. cd Zope323:29
pcarduneok, this is where it is a bit complicated23:29
jelkner6. svn up23:29
jelkneryou see why i like the packages! ;-)23:30
pcarduneusually you don't need to update zope323:30
pcarduneand that takes a really long time anyways, and with rebuilding and all... it's painful23:30
jelknerhmm, Zope3 now comes with twisted23:30
pcarduneyou only need to update cando and schooltool23:31
jelknersteps 1 - 4?23:31
pcarduneyou want to run svn up in two places:23:31
pcardunecando2006/SchoolTool/, and cando2006/SchoolTool/src/cando/23:31
jelknerahh yes, because cando now *is* part of schooltool, yes?23:32
jelknerok, make finished23:32
pcarduneyou could think of it like that23:33
jelknerwhat next?23:33
jelknerffsnoopy: did you ever get in?23:33
pcarduneactually it doesn't matter, cando just needs to be in the path that schooltool uses to look for things23:33
jelknergot it23:33
jelknerwhat next?23:33
ffsnoopyi dont know the password23:34
pcardunenext, go to cando2006/SchoolTool23:34
jelknerour favorite fruit23:34
pcarduneand you can run ./schooltool-server.py23:34
ffsnoopyyeah, and i have no clue what that is23:34
jelknerand if you don't know that, ask flint ;-)23:34
ffsnoopyi can do it tomorrow in class23:34
ffsnoopyoh, okay23:34
jelknerchange it now, please23:34
jelkneron which port will it run?23:35
jelknerImportError: No module named PIL23:35
th1aOh yeah, that's a requirement now.23:36
th1aWhat's the deb called?23:36
ffsnoopypython imagint library?23:36
pcarduneit's pretty awesome, i highly recommend looking at it in your free time23:37
ffsnoopy[random note] i worked with it over the summer23:37
pcardune(if only i had known about it back in my yhs days)23:37
jelknerffsnoopy: in preparation for your cando work!23:38
ffsnoopyahaha, right23:38
jelknercool, it is running23:39
pcarduneso, it runs on port 7080 as usual23:39
pcardunethe default login is username:manager password:schooltool23:41
jelknerhold on, you said i could use my old Data.fs file, yes?23:41
jelknerso if i restart it, i should have my same login23:41
jelknerand my student data should be there?23:42
pcardunetry it23:42
jelknerhold on...23:42
jelkneroh, there was a traceback before i even tried anything23:43
jelknerUnauthorized: (Competencies('SchoolTool'), '__name__', 'schooltool.view')23:43
pcardunedid you log in?23:44
pcarduneoh wait... that was me23:44
pcardunei hadn't logged in23:44
pcardunewell, go ahead and log in23:44
jelknerwhere is the Data.fs, in schooltool-skel/var ?23:44
th1apcardune: Are you using our sample data generator?23:46
pcarduneno, i'm not23:46
pcardunei haven't looked at it, but was eventually planning to23:46 (5, u'schooltool', 8)23:46
th1aIt works pretty well, although I've found the test setup of sample data to be rather painful.23:46
jelknerand a looong traceback23:47
pcardunejelkner: ok, i think that is a residual effect from our original separation of schooltool and cando23:47
th1ajelkner is the canary in the coalmine for data backward compatability.23:47
jelknerso what do i do?23:48
pcardunewe ended up having different evolve scripts and they are probably conflicted23:48
pcarduneyou will have to live without that original data for now23:48
pcarduneI will look into getting it to cross over properly23:48
jelkneroh no, you mean i have to enter it all again!23:48
th1aYou need to make pcardune write sample data generation methods.23:49
jelknerand import/export routines23:49
th1aAlthough that's a good way to forget about data migration.23:49
jelknerpcardune: this might be the time to discuss this23:50
pcardunewell, you want me to a) make data migration work between 2005 and 2006, and b) add sample data generation, and c) have import export functions23:50
jelknerdwelsh will need to save data from this year and get it into next year's program23:50
pcardunethat's the most important thing23:50
jelkneryes, so i can be the test case for that23:50
jelkneri'm not in a rush, but we need a plan23:51
jelkneri would like to get my data back if i could23:51
jelknerand welsh will need to23:51
jelknerso that sounds like our first stories:23:51
th1aI would say a) is most important.23:51
jelkner1. I want to be able to get my data from cando2005 insto cando200623:51
th1aThen b).23:51
th1aThen c).23:52
th1aWhen we say a), we mean, firing up our old Data.fs in the new database, and it just works, right?23:52
jelknerso that's the only story i care about now23:53
th1aI think that is actually easier than trying to export/import.23:53
jelknerwe should meet again when that is ready23:53
pcarduneyeah, i agree23:53
pcardunei agree with th1a that is23:53
jelknerffsnoopy can tell me23:53
jelknersounds good to me23:53
pcardunejelkner: is there more of a traceback to that error?23:53
th1ajelkner:  There's lots of new stuff in that SchoolTool checkout, too.23:54
jelkneryes, it is huge!23:54
jelknerwould trying to start up have changed the Data.fs file?23:54
jelkneri don't think so, it's data is still from 2 days ago, when i copied it23:55
pcarduneprobably not, if the evolve script breaks, then it probably doesn't change the Data.fs23:55
jelknerpcardune: i just copied the Data.fs file into your directory23:55
jelknerso you can use it for testing23:56
pcarduneok great23:56
jelknerok, a few business issues and we are done23:57
jelkner1. getting paid by aps23:57
jelkner2. estimated time to get this story finished23:57
jelkneryou and mitchell should be sending in invoiced to aps23:58
pcarduneI have an invoice from a couple weeks ago that i haven't sent23:58
jelknerdo you still have chris martini's email?23:58
pcardunedo we know how much funding we are getting? was that resolved?23:58
pcardunei should23:58
jelkneractually, i'll send a quick email to him, you and ffsnoopy (cc'ing dwelsh) to get that moving23:59
pcardunejelkner: actually, i don't23:59
jelknerno problem, i'll send the first email23:59
jelknerthen you and mitchell will need to work with him on getting whatever info he needs in to him23:59

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