IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-10-18

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erchacheall my jobmates wants a schooltool on their lives!12:42
erchachewell schoolbell ;-P12:42
erchacheth1a: i solve webbrowser are es....not es_es....when ut es_es all runs good!12:42
erchachewhen do i start documentation?12:43
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erchach2well my wifi sucks!13:00
erchach2why i lost connection of central dhcp.....i dont know....and hotline service less than me! fuc...13:00
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erchach2por fin!13:06
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erchachehere again!13:06
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erchacheth1a: all problems solved....only daemon are pending.... :-D14:14
erchachegood job!14:15
erchacheDo you have any previous release of new documentation? Can i start it? how can do it?14:15
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bskahanth1a, been looking over some proprietary software websites lately and it occurs to me that while "screenshotes" is big feature of OSS website, "tours" feature more promintently on mainstream software sites15:37
bskahanmaybe we should do a new flash screencast and feature it more prominently on the site15:38
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srichterone of my dreams is to take testbrowser-based README.txt files and generate flash files from it16:00
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bskahansrichter, that would be pretty cool17:38
srichterI think it can be done, if I find a way to send the testbrowser commands to the real browser17:42
srichterlike a reverse of Brian Loydd's test recorder17:42
srichteryou could then probably use wink or simething similar to record the session17:43
bskahanshowing the mouse cursor movement might be tricky17:51
bskahansince someone watching wouldn't know which link had been clicked17:52
srichteryou could highlight the button/link17:53
srichteror flash it or something17:53
srichterthat drawback would be definitely worth the benefit17:54
srichtermaybe wink or some SWF generation tool is even scriptable and could directly interface with the testbrowser stuff17:54
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dittoany humans?18:34
Aisteth1a: ayt?18:36
dittoI'm looking for schoolbell developers18:36
Aisteyou are in the right place18:37
Aistebut I asked th1a if he is there and you answered for him18:37
Aistenot nice18:37
dittodidn't see that18:37
dittoAnyone interested in adding LDAP support (and RDBMS support too) to schoolbell?18:39
Aistewhy do you need SB developers?18:39
dittofor new functionality18:39
dittowe'd be will to pay for their time18:39
th1abecoming... too... nocturnal...18:40
Aistesounds good :)18:40
dittowe are looking to implement it company wide but without LDAP it makes that harder18:41
Aisteonly we would need to find someone to work on that as POv is swamped with scheduled ST work18:41
Aistewere you the one who sent an email to the list about a SB calendar for 80 or so users?18:41
th1aHi ditto.  This is Tom.18:42
Aistehi th1a18:42
th1aHi Aiste.18:43
Aistegot some questions for you regarding further work on some leftovers from the last contract18:43
dittoI'm no python/zope developer and I don't have time to get that involved18:44
th1aditto:  Ah.  Unfortunate.18:45
th1aBut money is good.18:45
Aisteth1a: there are three outstanding things to be done with total estimate of 12 programmer hours18:46
pips1ditto: are you looking for developers with previous LDAP/Zope3 experience?18:46
dittoyeah I figured someone would be interested in that18:46
Aisteth1a: do we stick those into the next proposal?18:46
dittopreferably yes18:46
Aistesome of that work is quite urgent as i understand18:46
th1aAiste:  I'm not exactly sure which work you're referring to.18:46
th1aditto:  What's you timeframe?18:47
pips1well, the schooltool team would be a good call, but like Aiste pointed out, they seem to be busy right now, so maybe I can make another suggestion ;-)18:47
dittowell if you are aimed at School I'd think so...  at least here in the US they are big on Netware18:47
dittoso LDAP would be useful for that too18:48
dittohow does your bounty system work?18:48
th1aWell, we haven't actually used bounties as such yet.18:49
Aisteth1a: namelly import scripts for Pips which overran the initial estimate because the usecase is very complex18:49
th1aOur contracts are too complicated.18:49
Aisteand we did not get the data in time18:49
th1aAiste:  OK.18:49
Aisteanother one is explaining REST to srichter18:49
th1aYes ;-)18:50
Aisteor rather comments and suggestions on fixing the RESTive interface18:50
dittohow is that enabled?18:50
dittoI see it in the conf file18:50
dittoand the script18:50
th1aAiste:  We can add those to the next contract.18:51
Aisteand also we do not have an example import script for the restive interface18:51
Aisteas the one we are working on for pips is too complicated and can't be used as an example18:51
th1aYes.  I would still like to have that done.18:51
Aistethere, that is the whole load18:51
AisteIgnas have almost finished the scripts18:52
th1aI'm ok with adding that to the next contract if you are.18:52
Aistejust needs a quick review by Marius18:52
Aisteok, fine18:52
Aistethe only problem is the deadline that pips has18:52
Aistedid you get my email about the time available?18:52
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5284:18:52
povbot/svn/commits: Code for rest import script exaples (WIP) comments need some review.18:52
th1aI'm afraid I just crawled out of bed.18:53
Aisteah, sorry :)18:53
Aistei keep forgetting those time differences18:53
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th1aTime difference isn't really the problem.18:54
erchachei install report lab and send a error on random situations....i dont investigate...18:54
erchachewhere i send report?18:54
pips1ditto: are you thinking of contributing to schooltool?18:58
dittonot personally18:58
dittofinancially to get LDAP support18:59
dittoI work for a company that it considering using it18:59
dittoI figured I'd go directly to the people that know schoolbell already19:00
th1aditto:  What's your deadline for getting the work done?19:00
dittothe sooner the better but I don't really have a deadline19:01
erchacheth1a: software of are gpl?19:01
dittonext month or two would be best19:01
pips1ditto: it would really be great if your company would finance a LDAP-Schooltool-Integration and give it to the open source community :-)19:01
ignaserchache, yes19:01
dittoit's worth it.. and GPL is better since other people could pick up on it19:02
th1aditto:  srichter and I have previously estimated that it would take an experienced developer about a week.19:03
pips1sounds like you are os friendly-person :-)19:03
erchachewhere i can download it?19:03
th1aThe coding is straightforward, it would be mostly testing.19:03
th1aerchache:  I didn't set up the bug tracker.19:03
dittopersonally yes, and as a company we use a lot of it19:03
pips1I see, cool19:04
* jinty might be interested in trying it19:04
dittoif it only would take ~ a week that would be ideal19:04
jintythere arn't so many developers as experienced as srichter;)19:05
pips1ditto: has your company done such a thing before at all (funding software and publishing it under an open source license?)19:06
ignaserchache, it's called roundup, just google19:08
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erchacheignas: ok...thanks....zope no?19:10
ignaserchache, no19:10
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dittopips1:  We some with OpenBSD19:11
pips1ditto: very cool!19:11
Aisteroundup is not GPL19:12
Aistepython license19:12
dittowe use that for routers/firewalls then Linux for just about everything else there19:12
Aisteerchache: you can find roundup here
erchacheaiste: thanks a lot! :-D19:14
erchachei put issue...19:14
erchacheall running!19:14
erchachewell im going to see this program....and retouch .po of es_ES and es locale files19:15
dittoif you are guys are looking for bug tracking...
dittoone of our developers is the head for that on the side19:16
erchacheditto: thanks too... ;P19:17
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Aisteth1a: so what happens to the import script for pips' data?19:21
Aisteas i mentioned in my email we have some other work planned for this and next week19:21
Aistebut we could squeeze it in by changing some plans19:21
Aisteditto: what language is the zentrack in?19:21
th1aAiste:  Well, I guess it is pretty much up to you.  It would be nice to give pips1 what he needs.19:24
th1aIt just ended up being an overly complex sample case.19:25
Aisteok, we'll try to squeeze that one in and then start the rest of ST stuff next month19:25
th1aThat would be fine.19:25
th1aI'll be working on the attendance stories.19:25
th1aI'll send the invoices in tonight.  Sorry we got out of sync on the initial one.19:27
Aisteok, no prob19:28
pips1Aiste: Thank you very much! I really appreciate it!19:29
Aiste:) de nada19:29
* jinty had no idea Aiste spoke spanish....19:30
* pips1 has to keep himself from not jumping up and down and making silly noises19:30
AisteI do not speak spanish :)19:31
th1aditto:  Did you get my private message?  I just remembered that if you aren't registered on the server you can't respond.19:31
Aistejust random scraps of knowleadge19:31
dittoI did19:33
dittohow do I register?19:34
pips1ditto: I have been a customer of a software company providing services for zope2/zope3 and LDAP. they were really nice to work with. maybe they have some time availble to work on your LDAP-Schoolbell-Integration19:34
dittothat would be fine too19:35
pips1have a look
Aisteah :) infrae are really good guys :)19:36
dittocool I'll get in touch over there too19:37
Aisteworth a try if they have time19:37
pips1ditto: try 'kitblake at'19:37
dittoany input on what's fair $ for the work involved?19:39
dittoI have an idea of what I'd like to contribute but I still have to get final approval19:40
pips1well, if th1a and srichter already estimated 1 week worth of work, i think that's a good indication19:40
dittothat's about what I was thinking too19:41
th1aIt is more of a configuration and testing job than programming.19:42
dittowhat about RDBMS support?19:42
dittoZope seems to have that too19:42
th1aWell, do you mean moving the whole application to an RDBMS?19:43
th1aOr allowing you to use a RDBMS for new stuff.19:43
th1aOr certain objects?19:43
dittothat I'm not certain...  user's/settings etc19:43
dittoonce it's in a DB we could integrate just about any other system we've got around here into it19:44
dittoand I'm sure down the line someone will ask for that if this thing takes off19:45
jintyRDBMS support will be _painfull_19:45
dittoit's not critical19:45
dittoLDAP would be a good start19:46
th1ajinty:  That is an exaggeration, I think.19:46
th1aBut neither of us have done it.19:46
jintyI have just done it for another project that uses the same recurrence rules as schoolbell19:46
jintyit is painfull19:47
th1aOh, painful because of the data model, not in terms of moving bits around.19:47
th1aThat's true.19:47
jintyI can show you the code if you want?19:47
dittohow does that work?  does schoolbell just talk to zope which does all the heavy lifting or is it internal?19:48
th1aWell... I would say it is "internal."19:49
th1aBut SchoolBell's data structure is more of a graph than tables, so it doesn't necessarily map easily.  So moving the whole application to a RDBMS would be rough.19:50
th1aSomething simple like storing contact info for people in a RDBMS would be more reasonable.19:51
dittoyears ago I wrote my own php calendaring system with reoccurring events etc in a DB.. lots of work so I understand there19:52
dittocontact info would be good19:52
pips1ditto: does your company use LDAP for authentication?, autorisation? or also to store user data?19:53
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dittowe have two main sources of authenication...  Active Directory (only Windows servers we have beside a couple SQL2000 test boxes) and a MySQL database for email and jabber19:54
dittoeventually we'll probably eliminate the MySQL DB and just have everything point to AD19:55
pips1I see19:57
dittoanything that makes it easier to eliminate multiple passwords is good19:58
dittounfortunately there's nothing out there in open source land that can really compete with AD20:02
pips1ditto: if your company goes ahead with the Schoolbell-LDAP-Integration and is happy to license it as open source, let us know ... :-)20:02
dittoI will definitely release is back as GPL if we go ahead and do it20:03
dittoanyway, I'm taking off20:03
pips1ditto: I don't know about AD vs OpenLDAP, etc. but even die-hard unix/linux sys admins have said that AD is quite good20:04
dittoIt is..  OpenLDAP is still required20:04
dittoI'll be back later on in the week20:04
dittothanks for the help20:05
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5285:21:33
povbot/svn/commits: Finishing touches for REST import example.21:33
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jelknerdwelsh: hey dave!23:07
jelknerffsnoopy: mitchell, how goes it?23:08
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ffsnoopyhey jeff23:15
ffsnoopygot sidetracked, it was a slow start at 4 :/23:15
jelkneryeah, dave isn't not answering and paul isn't here...23:15
jelknerperhaps they are skyping...23:16
jelknerwe are not planning on resuming weekly meetings until after november 623:16
jelknerhere is what is going on:23:16
jelknerthere are two versions of cando23:17
jelknercando 2005, which is the stable one that folks will be using this year23:17
jelknerno new features are going to be added to that23:17
jelknercando 2006, the unstable trunk23:17
jelknercando 2006 is where new development will take place23:18
jelknerbut it is going to be built on a version of schooltool that doesn't yet build itself23:18
jelknerso we really can't work on it yet23:18
ffsnoopyyou think? haha23:18
jelknerthe schooltool developers estimate that by november 6 (after the ubuntu below zero gathering) it will build again, and we can resume work23:19
jelknerso there won't be much for you to do until then23:19
jelknerof course, that is only a few weeks away ;-)23:19
jelknerso our next regularly scheduled meeting should be november 823:20
ffsnoopylike here?23:20
jelknerbut i'll update you on that as it gets closer23:20
jelkneryes, here23:20
ffsnoopyoh, so not next week or the week after23:20
jelkneri'm only here to talk about a bug that dave reported this morning23:21
jelknerbut really all he needs to do is get that to paul23:21
ffsnoopyi see23:21
jelknerso he probably did that already..23:21
ffsnoopyalrighty, ill be signing off then unless you need to discuss something at the moment23:21
jelknernope, thanks for coming...23:22
ffsnoopysure thing :) take care23:22
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dwelshDave and Paul are on phone tracking bug!23:25
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jelkneri figured that was what was going on, dave23:26
dwelshwelsh and paul are on phone tracking bugs.23:26
jelknerhow is it coming?23:26
dwelshworking on it...23:28
dwelshschool tool vs. cando permissions23:28
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jelkneryes, i saw the bug report23:28
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jelknerhi paul!23:28
pcardunehey jelkner23:28
jelknerhow does it look?23:29
pcardunehow does what look? the bug?23:29
jelknerare you going to be able to crack this one?23:29
pcarduneone of the two... the other seems like a trickier problem but is probably another one of those one line permission changes23:29
jelknerwell, i'll be hanging out here in case you need anything from me, otherwise, let me not get in your way...23:30
th1ajelkner:  Do you know anything about SIF, the Schools Interoperability Framework?23:31
th1aWait, I guess we discussed this at PyCon.23:31
th1aSo you probably don't remember more about it than I told you, if that.23:31
jelknerth1a: i only know what th1a taught me at pycon last year ;-)23:31
jelknerit is an ambitious project to create an xml data format for school interoprability, yes?23:32
jelknerand schooltool will be trying to stick within it's framework, even though it is a huge, incomplete, moving target..23:33
jelknerhow am i doing?23:33
th1aIt also includes a spec for a server that coordinates the message passing between apps.23:33
jelknerthat would be useful23:34
th1aWell, it isn't quite as huge and incomplete as you make it sound, and we mainly use the spec as a reference.23:34
jelknerok, that's good news23:34
jelknera spec is only as good as the software that implements it, however23:35
jelknerhow is that coming23:35
th1aIt wasn't a big priority because, particularly in the developing world, we've been interested in schools with minimal existing infrastructure.23:35
th1aSo interoperating with other enterprise apps didn't seem like a big deal.23:35
jelknerbut here, of course, it *will be*23:35
th1aBut with Edubuntu now on the landscape, it changes things.23:36
jelknerand if schooltool is written to be consistent with SIF, it will be a big selling point for it later23:36
th1aBecause we have multiple "enterprise" apps on one free cd.23:36
th1aThat don't work together.23:36
th1aMoodle, LDAP, SchoolTool.23:36
th1aBeing the big 3.23:36
dwelshThe way permissions are implemented in School Tool is VERY confusing.23:37
dwelshSet Up Access controls pop up on the menus for about six objects23:37
dwelshunclear if there is just ONE set up access23:37
jelknerth1a: who can paul go to for help on this?23:37
dwelshor if there is Set Up Access for each of the six individual objects23:37
th1aIs this a batching issue?23:37
jelknerpcardune: please explain23:38
dwelshObjects implicated... persons, courses, sections, groups, resources and cando itself.23:38
th1aOK.  I know what you're talking about.23:39
th1aIt is by far the most complicated part of the system, and needs some further work.23:40
th1aIt is also likely that SchoolTool 2006, at least the SIS part of it, will be much more locked down.23:40
dwelshright.  we can't tell if permissions are complicating the problem with changing student passwords23:40
th1aAnd present you with fewer options.23:40
dwelshwith group membership, and with adding and deleting students.23:41
th1aPermissions are inherited by containment.23:41
dwelshIt's clear though that we're getting permission problems.23:41
th1aThat is, contained objects inherit the permissions of their parents.23:41
th1aSo if you're having a problem with the permissions of people, you want to set up the access on the people folder.23:41
dwelshQuestion:  Do I have permission control on each type of object seperately???23:42
th1aLikewise, the permissions you set on the CanDo directory will be inherited by everything contained by CanDo.23:42
th1adwelsh:  Well, in theory, no.23:42
th1aHowever, creating the top level calendar has complicated matters.23:43
th1aBecause the assumption is that people want that to be publically available.23:43
th1aBut stuff below it, like the people directory, should not be public by default.23:43
th1aSo by default, the permissions on some of the top level containers, like persons, are set explicitly.23:44
jelknerpcardune: are you here, paul?23:44
th1aSo if you want to change them you need to change them explicitly.23:44
dwelshyeah, we're digesting23:44
jelknerif pcardune has a problem that is very difficult to solve, we ought to be discussing who he can work with to get help...23:45
dwelshanother problem with the set user access panel...23:46
dwelshthe User names aren't alphabetized.23:46
dwelshso when you're trying to find a user23:46
dwelshyou have to look through 9 screens23:46
pcardunewell, i think part of the problem might be out of our scope of work (i.e. it will be fixed with schooltool2006 or at least made easier to deal with)23:46
th1ajelkner:  So I've been talking to the SchoolForge-UK guys for the past couple months, because the British government has recommended that UK schools adopt SIF, and schools in the UK could potentially shift much more quickly than US schools have been able to do.23:46
th1aAre they sorted by ID?23:47
jelknerth1a: i've heard that british schools are moving to free software platforms over the next few years, is that true?23:47
pcardunewe're not sure exactly what the problem is yet... in trying to figure out the problem we have come up against a few road blocks inherent in schooltool's permission interface23:47
jelknersounded too good to be true :-(23:48
th1aYou might be able to hack around the batch size problem by setting a large batch size directly in the URL.23:48
jelknerth1a: it is crucial that we get paul any help he needs, and it sounds like he needs help on this one.23:49
jelknerwhat can we do?23:49
th1aSo I got those guys interested, and then we got the fellow who had been maintaining a now inactive Java implementation of a "Zone Integration Server" to try to do it in Python.23:49
th1aNow, regarding your problem.23:50
th1aWhat is the problem?23:50
pcardunei can talk to srichter or mgedmin... they both seem deep in schooltool and zope plumbing as well23:50
th1aWhat is the nature of the problem.23:50
th1aI assume it is more than an inconvenient interface.23:50
jelknerpcardune: please tell the nice man what the problem is23:51
dwelshwe're guessing a little with the permissions stuff.23:51
pcardune(was looking for a link to the bug report)23:51
dwelsh2 problems:  when a student password is changed, they get access to school tool but loose access to their CanDo section.23:51
dwelshbut ONLY on one of the servers.23:51
dwelshwe're running 3 servers.23:51
pcardunethat is the problem we need help with23:52
dwelshSo we started to look what might be different between the servers23:52
dwelshand that led us to permissions.23:52
dwelshwhich got us into the broader discussion about the confusion of permissions in general.23:52
dwelshbut the first problem has to do with changing a student password, and then having that student lose access to their CanDo section.23:53
dwelshThe second problem is that when we removed this student and tried readding them,23:53
dwelshwe got a server error when we tried to go into CanDo.23:53
dwelshPaul thinks this may be due to incomplete deletion of student stuff.23:53
th1aThose are bugs all right.23:53
pcardunebut the second problem I know how to fix23:54
dwelshThe first problem we need to look at more, because it is hard to reproduce on the second server.23:54
dwelshWe started talking permissions because the student with the problem is also an instructor,23:54
dwelshand so member of the group instructors, with more permissions given.23:54
dwelshWe wondered if that could be the difference, but again, we're guessing.23:55
jelknerok, what we need to talk about now is cando support23:56
jelknerpaul has 7 hours a week to work on cando23:56
jelknerhe is a student and his studies have to take priority23:56
jelknerbut this is becoming critical that we get extra support when we need it, or the early adopters of cando will give up on us23:57
jelknerjinty really came to our rescue on packaging23:57
dwelshproblem 2 is well defined.23:58
dwelshwriting bug report now.23:58
th1ajelkner:  Are you asking me about cando support?23:59
jelknerth1a: yes23:59
jelkneri'm wondering if there is someone we could hire to help fix this?23:59

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