IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-10-17

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erchacheth1a: are you here?00:38
th1aI am here.00:39
erchachei need your experience....00:39
th1aUh...  you may be overestimating my experience as a sys admin.00:39
erchachei want to add to my plone site a software catalog like tucows and other.....00:39
erchacheno no....its about software :-D00:39
th1aOK.  As long as it isn't about MediaWiki.00:40
erchachei need put links to make a softwaree catalog to supply propietary software by free software for my job00:40
th1aWell, you might be able to use Plone Software Center like we are on and is used on
erchacheand need to take the mysql, moodle, schooltool ;P....and so....00:40
th1aYou'd probably want to tweak the UI.00:41
erchachebut i want to add stadistics for popolarity00:41
erchacheexists or need to hack plone software center?00:41
erchacheto add stadistics...00:41
th1aWell, I would just look around the products on,00:41
th1abut hacking the Plone Software Center seems like the most likely solution.00:42
erchacheim doing that....i need something similar to gforge.....without store files00:42
erchacheyou know?00:42
th1aWell, I don't have any other answers for you.00:42
erchacheok...thanks... :-D00:43
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povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5278:03:30
povbot/svn/commits: Made tests run on Gentoo (gentoo installs msttcorefonts in a different place)03:30
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5279:03:31
povbot/svn/commits: Ripped off conflicting ZCML declarations.03:31
th1aignas:  If you could add a note about Gentoo in it would be greatly appreciated.03:33
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5280:03:33
povbot/svn/commits: Level support.03:33
ignasth1a, afraid I can't edit it :/03:37
ignasor at least i can't find the edit button ;)03:37
th1aYou do have an account though?03:37
th1aLet me try to fix this.03:37
th1a(it would be in the green tab bar above the document)03:37
ignasand i got Copy among the Actions03:38
ignastha ti can perform03:38
th1aJust a sec.03:38
th1aOh.  Apparently we didn't add anyone to the group yet.03:39
th1aDeveloper group that is.03:39
th1aThat would cause a problem.03:39
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5281:03:41
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed a bug in RESTive view for levels.03:41
th1aignas:  refresh.03:41
ignasstill can't03:43
th1aignas:  This time for real.03:52
ignasscribbled a couple of lines03:58
ignasok, sorry time to sleep ;_)03:59
th1aignas:  I was wondering if you were up late or up early.04:06
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jintytiredbones: ITP - Intent To Package (A type of debian bug which says: I am working on packaging this)10:30
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mgedminsvn: URL 'svn://' doesn't exist14:20
* mgedmin wants to pick up a stone, and throw it through some window14:21
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srichtermgedmin: do you know the URL to ignas' reload tool?14:46
mgedmingintas' z3 view reload hack?14:47
mgedminlook for it at
srichterok, thanks14:47
srichterso I don't know why it should not be there14:48
mgedminworks now14:48
srichtermgedmin: I might have come up with a way to generically reload code14:48
mgedminbut buildbot complained about it last night14:48
mgedminsrichter, that's too good to be true :-)14:48
srichtermgedmin: wanna hear?14:49
srichterok, great, I need to run the idea by a good Z3 developer anyways :-)14:49
srichterok, so Zope 3 creates a lot of types inside directives14:50
srichterthis usually makes it hard for simple reloads14:50
srichterso, if we could reload a particular ZCML file (just one package) we should be ok14:50
srichterwhat are the obstacles?14:50
srichterwe need the original registration context14:51
srichteraha, this is no problemo; it is stored in some module global14:51
srichterthe other part is to override registrations14:51
pips1mgedmin: judging from the irc log, it looks like ignas has been working late and is now getting some sleep.. is that so?14:52
srichterI think the component architecture allows you to override registrations14:52
srichterso it is really zope.configuration that blocks duplicate registrations14:53
srichterthis can be overcome by reloading a file using overridesInclude or just use the context that contains all the loaded meta configuration14:53
srichterthen the resolve method of the context will receive an optional reload argument that will not only resolve a name but also reload it if requested14:54
srichterand that's it14:54
pips1mgedmin: do you think ignas will join irc later today? (maybe for the regular meeting?)14:55
srichteryou should then be able to say reload ZCML file foo.zcml and it sould update all relevant components14:55
srichtersince one is commonly only working on one package at a time, this is really feasab;e14:56
srichternote that the reload benefit would decrease steadily, if you allow more and more files to be reloaded14:56
srichtermgedmin: ping15:01
mgedminsrichter, if it works, it will be very nice15:06
mgedminpips1, he will be15:06
pips1mgedmin: ok, cool15:06
srichtermgedmin: do you think it is workable?15:07
srichtermgedmin: or do you see problems right away?15:07
mgedminsrichter, I fear it might not be workable, but I do not know enough about ZCML internals to know whether it is or isn't15:15
srichtermgedmin: which part specifically?15:16
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srichterany pre-work concerns are appreciated15:16
povbot/svn/commits: * mg committed revision 5282:15:16
povbot/svn/commits: Added missing documentation for the RESTive api of levels.15:16
povbot/svn/commits: Some of that API smells unRESTive to me.15:16
mgedminjust a gut feeling15:16
srichteroh, I see15:17
srichterI am mainly afraid that the CA won't allow overriding registrations15:17
srichterif it does, I am 90% it will work15:17
mgedminI'm sure the CA does allow that15:18
srichterok, cool15:18
mgedminthat's what Jim suggests, when you want to override a global utility in a functional test, for example15:18
srichterahh, right!15:18
mgedminold = zope.component.getUtility(IMailSendingUtility)15:18
mgedminzope.component.provideUtility(IMailSendingUtility, stub_that_wont_send_real_emails)15:18
mgedminzope.component.provideUtility(IMailSendingUtility, old)15:18
srichterI am sure zope.configuration will not stop me15:19
srichtereven if I cannot reuse the original context, when you first reload I could create a context that only contains the meta configuration15:20
srichterin fact, I think that's the cleanest way15:20
mgedminwhat will happen to overrides?15:20
mgedminsay, I declare in foo/configure.zcml that 'x.html' view for IFoo is FooXView()15:21
srichterthey are neglected15:21
mgedminbut I override it to BarXView() globally15:21
mgedminand then you reload foo/configure.zcml, what happens then?15:21
mgedminFooXView reappears?15:21
srichterin that case I would make the user somehow responsible to select the original and the overrides file for reloading15:21
mgedminsadly, ZCML is not a declarative language :(15:22
srichterbut I personally do not think this will be a major issue15:22
srichterbecause people want to reload their packages, not the global configuration15:23
mgedminthat's true15:23
srichterI think people want to mainly update their utilities, adapters, content components and views on the fly15:24
srichternote that this also allows you to update ZCML on the fly (as long as it is additivie) :-)15:24
* mgedmin thinks 'item.participant.activity.process.workflowRelevantData.student == self.context' is insane!15:27
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srichterbut it uses the correct API15:28
srichternote that the participant != student15:28
mgedminare you now going to claim that15:28
mgedmin            return [15:28
mgedmin                item15:28
mgedmin                for item in interfaces.IManagerWorkItems(manager).items15:28
mgedmin                if (item.participant.activity.process.workflowRelevantData.student == self.context)][0]15:28
mgedminis "correct API"?15:28
mgedminthat's bogus!15:28
srichteryep, I do15:29
* mgedmin needs to take a deep breath, deeply look at schooltool.levels, and write up his comments15:29
srichterI use exactely the API of zope.wfmc as it was intended to be used15:29
bskahansrichter, have you looked at Gary's email about subviews?15:32
srichterno, not yet15:34
srichterI don't like their persistence approach15:34
srichternote that I had a lengthy phone call with them last week talking about the different approaches15:34
srichterand we do not necessarily need all this power15:35
srichterI will use this week to update our SchoolTool code to the latest content provider/viewlet API15:35
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srichterI am very happy with what Roger and I came up with at the sprint15:35
srichteralso note that the use cases for ZC and other CMS players are somewhat different from ours15:36
srichterwe need much less15:36
bskahanI started going through our templates this weekend, and can come up with a good 'drag-and-drop' story that fits our use cases15:37
srichterI think we should not implement drag-and-drop or anything like that now15:38
bskahandragging a calendar from the overlay 'portlet|viewlet|macro' onto the calendar to create an event in that calendar15:38
srichterthe objective for now is to make sure that every package is independent of the others15:39
* bskahan nods15:39
srichterwhen we need dragand drop support, we can look at alternatives15:39
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srichterGary, Benji, Roger and I are in communication about this entire thing and we eventually will have API-compatible versions15:39
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mgedminwhy! why! why! buildbot claims that svn: URL 'svn://' doesn't exist???16:10
mgedminsvn checkout --revision 5282 svn:// build/buildsupport/zpkgsetup16:11
mgedminsilly buildbot :/16:11
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pips1hi all16:12
srichtergood morning to everyone I have not chatted with16:24
* srichter is here for the meeting today ;-)16:24
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th1aIs it a holiday anywhere in the world?16:25
erchachehi....where is16:25
erchacheupdate-translations on schoolbell ubuntu package?16:25
erchachei need to translate into spanish16:25
srichterth1a: I ahve chatted with Brian and the POV people already today, so I think we are prety ok :-)16:25
* mgedmin is here16:26
erchacheehhhh i see it on /usr/lib/libschoolbell ;P16:27
erchachewhat the name of update-translation python script?....i triying to translate schoolbell installed via apt-get16:30
erchachebecause i need to make a rc script from schoolbell sourceinstallation16:30
th1aUh... jinty should know.16:31
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* mgedmin waits for the th1a's knock staring the meeting16:31
* th1a gavels the meeting into session.16:32
erchachenow is the meeting? O_o16:32
th1aI was just looking for at this morning's backlog.16:32
th1aPOV.  Where are we?16:32
algawe're almost done16:32
algathere is a problem though16:33
algawe're very unhappy with the RESTive API for levels16:33
algaand have ot16:33
algaand have not produced the restclient API for it16:33
algaother than that, we're done16:33
th1aOK, I probably should have made sure there was more feedback between srichter and POV on that.16:34
* pips1 checks
th1aAt the time.16:34
srichterI need more feedback to fix the problems16:34
algaoh, yes, pips1 sent in a new version of his import data16:34
algasrichter: glad to see you here16:35
erchacheand jinty where is he?16:35
th1aalga:  What needs to be done (generally) to the levels REST API?16:36
erchacheuhmmm....i can compile my own schoolbell and overwrite previous apt-get installation no?16:37
algath1a:  generally, it is not RESTive enough16:37
algaignas can tell in more detail, as he's been working with it16:38
bskahanerchache, its probably better to apt-get remove the old one, or just install a compiled one in /opt16:38
algasome POSTs and PUTs do not update representations, but commands16:38
mgedminfwiw it is only the promotion api that smells not entirely right (/persons/$foo/promotion) -- levels themselves, and academicRecord seem to be fine16:38
erchachei see /etc/init.d/schoolbell and can know all path of daemon...16:38
th1aignas:  Could you write down the issues and send them to srichter and I?16:38
mgedmin(except that the restive and browser views do not have unit tests AT ALL, which is not acceptable, in my opinion)16:39
erchachei can make a backup of /usr/sbin/schoolbell and try to overwrite it...16:39
erchachei think....16:39
th1aalga:  What else?16:39
srichterI figured promotion would cause some issues16:39
srichterbecause it was a little unorthodox to the other RESTive stuff I saw16:39
algath1a: everything else seems fine16:39
srichter(functionality wise)16:39
algaI'm just working on one more optimization16:40
erchacheahhhh i can substitute /usr/src/schoolbell instead /usr/lib/libschoolbell.....16:40
erchacheim going to test it!16:40
algaadding batching to overlay selection view16:40
erchacheyeah...i think can run!16:40
pips1alga: are you optimising pdf generation, too?16:41
pips1its rather slooow16:41
algano, we aren't16:41
th1aThat's not in the current contract.16:41
algaI doubt a lot can be done about the PDF generation16:41
th1aalga:  Why not?16:42
algaI suspect the slow part is PDF generation proper in reportgen16:42
mgedminalga, what about caching calendar expansions, like we did for the browser views?16:42
mgedminwe should profile before making assumptions16:42
algaok, I take my words back16:43
* mgedmin had his own assumption in mind, as well16:43
th1amgedmin:  What's your assumption?16:44
erchachedont worry i think i find a solution...16:44
erchacheim working on that16:44
th1aMy assumption is that the time isn't being consumed by the pdf generation itself.16:44
mgedminth1a, my assumption was that caching calendar expansions would speed up PDF views16:44
mgedminbut I haven't verified it16:44
th1aOK.  I agree.16:44
th1aSo is POV planning on being done today?16:45
pips1are you going to do a "development branch" release, or are people meant to use the daily snapshots (linux tarballs)?16:46
algaif we agree that promotion in REST client is not in this contract16:46
pips1s/people/interested developers16:46
th1aalga:  Agreed.  But you need to specify in some detail how it ought to work.16:46
jintyer hi16:46
th1ajinty:  Hi.16:47
algath1a: OK, we'll do that offline16:47
algath1a: I've a question16:48
th1aOK.  srichter, bskahan:  Where are we in the UI work?16:48
srichterok, so I worked on the viewlet stuff last week16:48
srichterRoger and I finally agreed on an API, which is great, because we will have his support16:48
* pips1 decides to shut up and goes to read the meeting agenda that th1a sent earlier16:49
srichterI really want to be done with the following by Novemeber 116:49
srichter* fixes to level stuff + unit tests16:49
th1apips1:  We'll get to it.16:49
srichter* UI work phase I and II16:49
srichter* Documentation, phase I16:49
srichterth1a: is that okay with you?16:50
srichterthis way we can start with a new set of tasks on Novemeber 116:50
jintyerchache: man dpkg-divert16:50
povbot/svn/commits: * ignas committed revision 5283:16:50
povbot/svn/commits: Finishing touches to restclient.16:50
th1asrichter.  That's pretty much what I was thinking.16:50
srichterth1a: I am glad we agree :-)16:50
th1aWhat needs to be done next?  What do you need from bskahan?16:51
srichterwell, I have the split up16:51
srichterso I really just need to get to it16:51
bskahanI started applying the viewlet mechanism to our UI this weekend but I seem to be doing something wrong16:51
bskahansince I keot getting lookup errors on my regions16:52
srichterI think I am going to do the devmode stuff first, since the POV guys are working with it and I will have to write some unit and functional tests for it16:52
srichterok, me doing the doc phase I stuff first, shoudl avoid clashing with Brioan for this week16:52
th1aSo we're going to end up with something like schooltool.viewlet that hopefully will merge into zope.viewlet at some point?16:53
bskahansrichter, I can move the calendar views to viewlets this week16:53
ignasBy the way - we still do not have example scripts for RESTive client ... current scripts have too much information associated with data pips1 has provided16:53
ignasif i understand correctly - even terms/term names are kind of secret16:54
th1aignas:  His script is too complicated to be a good example?16:54
bskahancalendar views use the most page regions at this point16:54
ignasth1a, yes16:54
ignasit is very complicated in some places16:54
th1aOK, I guess we have to live with that.16:54
srichterbtw, I still believe that the RESTive client should be pluggable, so that we can update it as we develop new features16:54
th1aIts not being an example, that is.16:54
srichterthen we can use the RESTive client for functional testing, much like testbrowser16:54
srichterthis way it gets used and does not rot16:54
th1aA very simple example would be good to have.16:55
th1asrichter:  I think it is a good point, but not a priority right now.16:56
pips1ignas: "terms/term names are kind of secret" ? you mean, because I always sent all the data encrypted? To be honest, I didn't think too much about what needs to be private and what not, I just sent all files encrypted...16:56
mgedminsrichter, we have that already16:56
srichtermgedmin: you have plugin mechanism?16:57
mgedminsrichter, no16:57
ignaspips1, oh :)16:57
mgedminah, I missed the bit about "pluggable"16:57
mgedminwe have the bit about using RESTive client in functional tests16:57
srichterOkay, cool; any demo?16:58
srichterI really want to start using it instead plain HTTP requests16:58
th1abskahan:  Can you give us an update?16:58
bskahanthe ftests in the rest package do that16:58
mgedmin-1 for using restclients in functional tests of RESTive views16:58
srichterwhy? It would finally be a use case for the entire thing16:59
th1asrichter, mgedmin:  We're not going to be doing much with REST for the next six months anyhow.16:59
srichterand the current restive tests are utterly brittle as I have mentioned many times16:59
bskahanth1a, is the staging area for the new forums, is the mailman interface, and is the stats interface16:59
* srichter becomes stronger in his opinion that if we do not have a real use for RESTive views, we should drop them; developing something for an imaginary target is just very cumbersome17:00
mgedminwe had a real use (fat GUI client), but it got dropped17:01
srichtermy point :-)17:01
th1aAh.  I guess I've never actually looked at logs for  This is interesting.17:01
mgedminwe have another real use -- the import script for pips117:02
bskahanphpbb2 templates suck17:02
srichtermgedmin: but those scripts are limited to some areas17:02
* mgedmin hears 'php' and shudders17:02
srichterso I would now claim that the RESTive stuff is not really good for very functional things, like workflows17:03
mgedminI could claim that workflows are not very good for SchoolTool, but I won't17:03
th1aWe don't need to make a decision about REST at this point.17:03
mgedminalthough the code still gives me jeebies17:03
* srichter shuts up and listens17:03
* mgedmin likewise17:03
algasrichter: suppose you want to write an external script that sets up promotion workflows for the whole school17:04
algaaccording to a large database held somewhere else17:04
srichterthe word "suppose" makes it an "if" statement, which means it is imaginary; it is not a concrete need17:05
srichteranyways, I can live with it for now; so if you send me suggestions on how you think it should work, I'll fix it up17:06
th1aI'd *really* like to hear out these concerns, but we should discuss future releases.17:06
mgedminlet's fix the timezone mess?17:07
algasrichter: I imagine the goal is to have ST fully scriptable via REST17:07
th1aWell, the immediate future releases.17:07
th1aShould we do bugfix releases in the "stable" branches next Tuesday?17:08
ignasth1a, IMHO yes17:08
srichteralga: I am questioning this goal, because I think it is very ambitious and the lack of a need for it makes it an even more elusive goal17:08
mgedmin+1 for bugfix releases17:08
srichteralga: I would be all for it, if we would have a (roprietary)software that we absolutely have to interface with17:09
algasrichter: it is not ambitious, it's just a bit tedious17:09
srichteralga: can you guarantee me that everything that can be done via the Web (data-wise) can be done via REST?17:10
ignassrichter, lack of need ? we have scripts that imported whole university - 1500 users, 350 sections, 4 different terms, 3 ttschemas, and scheduled everything ...17:10
th1aOK.  Let's do it next Tuesday.  I dropped the ball on getting Mac & Windows packages out last time since we did it on such short notice.17:10
ignasit's not like no one is going to want to import 1k of users automatically17:10
srichterignas: but it uses a very limited subset of the RESTive interface17:10
ignassrichter, ????17:10
srichterso I would say let's develop the RESTive interface by the need of our users17:11
ignassrichter, terms, sections, ttschemas, courses, persons, groups, relationships, timetables ...17:11
ignasyep very limited17:11
th1aSo I guess we should make a tarball this week (Wednesday) that I can send to the external packagers.17:11
th1aThen we may actually have a coordinated release.17:11
bskahanth1a, is the release this wendnesday or next tuesday?17:11
algasrichter: practically what ignas listed is almost all data that we support17:12
* srichter really stops talking about REST no17:12
th1aWhat I"m saying is that we have enough different packages, which have become sufficiently complex that we need to give people time to create them.17:12
bskahanthere's not much chance that I'll make huge progress on timezone bugs by wednesday, but I should be able to do alot for tuesday17:12
bskahanand I'd like to get those fixes into the bugfix release17:13
th1aSo that when we do the release, we actually have the packages.17:13
th1abskahan:  I'd like to have them in there too.17:13
alganoble wishes :-)17:13
bskahanhow about we say friday for tarballs and tuesday for binaries?17:13
th1aThat should be reasonable.17:13
jintyheh coordination;)17:13
bskahanshould announce that schedule on the -dev list and schooltool list so packagers (eric) who aren't here will get alerted17:14
th1aYes, that's apparently my job.17:14
th1aThat's the idea.17:14
th1aThen we'll have a development snapshot after srichter is done: Nov. 1.17:15
jintyso I should wait with the announcement to the list until everything is lined up?17:15
th1aSnapshot of the trunk.17:15
pips1srichter: re REST use cases: our school might need to interoperate with a proprietary sis in the (near) future, since the school is currently in the process of deploying a proprietary sis...! :-/17:15
th1ajinty:  Do you mean an announcement today or an announcement next Tuesday?17:17
srichterpips1: but the RESTive interface is a ST proprietary format, so do you guys plan to write some third party glue code or write a different API for the other SIS?17:17
srichterpips1: do you have already ideas on how it should work?17:17
jintyth1a: I meant announcement when the tarballs have been made17:17
pips1srichter: good question, no idea17:17
jintythat appears to be friday17:17
th1ajinty:  Let's assume this will happen on Friday.  Put some pressure on bskahan.17:18
th1aDeadlines are good.17:18
srichterpips1: what type of interfaces does your proprietary software have?17:18
th1aOK, last agenda item before we can all vent about web service API's.17:18
th1aIs there really no detailed documentation from the first iteration on attendance by POV?17:19
th1aNo stories?17:19
pips1srichter: don't know yet, I'm not involved17:19
algath1a: the story cards are long gone17:19
srichterpips1: I bet you it will be more cumbersome to use REST for this use case then writing a direct bridge from Zope 3 to the other SIS ;-)17:20
algabut the stories were likely something like 'Attendance Tracking, N days'17:20
bskahandoes it make sense for the web view for attendance to have the section being attended as its context?17:20
mgedminwe had something like thatr17:21
th1abskahan:  Probably.17:21
mgedmina roll-call (RESTive) view on a group17:21
mgedminthat let you specify attendance for all its members17:21
th1aSo I should just start making up attendance stories from scratch?17:22
algath1a: have you looked at the architecture.txt doc?17:22
mgedmin3. Domain specific functionality17:22
mgedminAttendance tracking17:22
bskahanare we going to have seperate "Present at school this day" and "Present in this class"17:22
erchachemake: *** [update-translations] Error 12717:23
erchachewhat is this?17:23
ignaserchache, an error message17:23
erchachewhooow....but what mens!17:23
erchache/bin/sh: msgmerge: command not found17:23
erchachemake: *** [update-translations] Error 12717:23
mgedminthat's what it means17:23
th1aalga:  I've read that.  I suppose that's something.17:23
mgedminyou do not have gettext installed17:24
algaerchache: I didn't know you liked men :-)17:24
erchachegoing to install17:24
th1aOK.  I'll start writing attendance stories then.17:25
th1aRegarding interoperability...17:25
th1aone of thing things I've been working on lately is getting this project going again and on Python:
th1aKeeping the discussion going between some guys in the UK and the maintainer of the previous (Java) version.17:27
erchachearrrghhh fighting with paths17:28
th1aSo is the concern about workflows that technically it should be possible to create workflows that span applications, and we don't support that?17:29
* mgedmin needs food17:30
pips1"workflows that span applications" = ? (do you have an example in mind?)17:30
srichteryeah, I was about to ask the same :-)17:30
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* th1a gavels out the official meeting.17:30
th1atvon:  Good timing!17:31
ignasth1a, poke17:31
tvonth1a:  heh17:31
th1asrichter:  I was wondering if that's what alga was referring to earlier.17:31
ignaspips1 supplied me with new data17:31
ignasi am currently continuing my work on importing all of it17:31
ignasjust telling you so you would know :)17:32
srichterth1a: well, I *tink* they don't like the way the RESTive interface behaves when dealing with my workflow stuff17:33
th1aingas:  OK.17:33
th1aignas, that is.17:33
srichterth1a: and I can see where they are coming from, if I understand REST right17:33
srichterth1a: it has nothing to do with workflows accross applications17:34
srichterjust how you interface with it17:34
srichterbut I personally do not know how to do it differently17:34
srichter(the RESTive interface that is)17:34
ignasi'll try scribbling something about that17:35
srichterworkflows are about interacting with the system, not so much about data and thus are much harder to model in a data-centric presentation (like REST)17:35
ignaslike - what i'd like to see17:35
pips1question: REST is an interface you can write code against to retrieve, and manipulate data, somewhat like an API, no?17:37
ignaspips1, REST is more like a way of doing interfaces17:37
srichterpips1: yes, it is an XML-compliant API of SchoolTool17:38
mgedminXML is not necessary17:38
srichterok, true17:38
pips1well, i read the paper a while ago, and while I'm not a programmer, I would like to get a rough understanding...17:38
th1aIt is an API.17:38
mgedminREST is all about using a small set of verbs (PUT/GET/POST/DELETE) to operate on resources17:38
mgedminby sending representations of them back and forth17:38
th1aThe practical application is that SchoolTool is remotely scriptable.17:39
pips1yes, i think that is what i understood17:39
th1aThe scripts can be in almost any language, running remotely on any platform.17:39
pips1now re workflows17:39
srichteryep, and that's the reason it is a problem for workflows; because workflows are not simple resources, they are more like code that manage resources :-)17:39
srichterth1a: but still scripts that need to comply to this particular API17:39
srichterso my question is: What makes our REST interface more appealing than let's say XML-RPC?17:40
th1asrichter.  Of course.  it isn't magic.17:40
srichter(I have an answer to that question. ;-)17:40
pips1srichter: when you talk about "resources", what do you mean in the context of a sis/schooltool?17:40
srichterpips1: resources are generally chunks of data, like a document, a student, a class, a calendar, etc17:41
srichteranswer: XML-RPC is bad in handling binary and large amounts of data17:41
srichterhowever, I am not sure that this outweighs the effort we put into REST :-)17:41
srichteran XML-RPC view is so easy to write in Zope 317:42
ignassrichter, what effort ?17:42
pips1srichter: "chunks of data".. do you mean objects in OOP?17:42
srichterand it does not just support data well, but also functionality17:42
srichterpovbot: yep17:42
povbotsrichter: Error: "yep" is not a valid command.17:42
srichterpips1: yep17:42
ignaspips1, timetables, ttschemas, terms etc.17:42
th1axmlrpc is not without its own issues.17:45
srichterth1a: absolutely17:45
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pips1isn't REST just a "lightweight" (thinking "limited, easy-to-understand vocabulary", but also "for lazy programmers" ) way of allowing remote scripting? and other webservices such as SOAP are considered "tedious" by hackers?17:46
mgedminsrichter, we had long discussions about REST vs XML-RPC in the beginning17:46
mgedminI don't remember them all17:46
srichterth1a: but it is an industry wide standard that is implemented by a lot of third party software17:46
mgedminthe philosophy of REST differs significantly from RPC17:46
srichteryes, I agree17:47
mgedminREST is the way the world wide web works17:47
mgedminREST is simpler17:47
srichterand I see the differences17:47
srichterREST is not simpler!17:47
srichterit is much harder17:47
mgedminto use -- it is simpler17:47
erchacheuhmmm translation fails17:47
erchacheon schoolbell 1.2.217:47
srichterI disagree17:47
mgedminI once saw some numbers about Amazons? api -- or was it flickr?17:47
th1aThat's REST vx. SOAP.17:47
mgedminanyway, a website provided the same set of services via REST, XML-RPC, and, I think SOAP17:47
mgedmin>90% users chose REST17:48
srichterXML-RPC libs exist for any language and I thus have to not worry about XML17:48
* pips1 thinks REST is indeed just a "style" of programming since the guys are now discussing what is easier/harder..17:48
th1aWe're definitely not going to switch to XMLRPC.17:48
srichteranyway, I think all those APIs XML-RPC, REST and SOAP are no good to "just" provide without direct use cases17:49
th1asrichter:  You understand the historical reason we've got REST.17:49
srichterbecause they all require third-party software to interface between a proprietary API and SChoolTool's API17:49
srichterth1a: yes17:49
th1aIt isn't a "proprietary" API.17:49
srichterno, that's not what I am saying17:50
SteveAxmlrpc is simpler17:50
SteveAif you want to support a small, predefined set of functionality17:50
srichterif you want to interface software A and B, you still need third party code that translates between A and B17:50
SteveAhowever, if you want to provide a way for people to do rich things with your data and your application17:50
SteveAin ways that you did not conceive of in advance17:50
SteveAthen REST wins17:51
srichterbut REST is only good for data; if you have workflows in the backend it is hard to represent their interface17:51
SteveAi disagree17:51
srichterin fact, I guess workflows should never surface in the restve interface17:51
SteveAthat depends whether there is persistent state that represents a position in a workflow17:52
SteveAor if it is just a way of accommodating a complex web form over several pages17:52
srichterof course, there is a persistnet state of the workflow17:52
srichterno, it is a way to ensure the integrity of the entire system17:52
srichterin this case the promotion workflow17:52
mgedminsrichter, can you describe that state?17:53
mgedminis it just "the current level"?17:53
srichterno, not always17:54
srichterat the beginning the student is not at a current level at all17:54
ignasnope - it's 3 parts - current level/ whether promotion workflow was initialized/ and the variable that keeps enrolled/withdrawn17:54
srichterin fact, people can insert any type of steps into the workflow beyond our control17:54
srichterignas is right17:54
srichterbut that's just for now17:55
ignasand it is manageable through rest17:55
srichterthe idea is that people can easily insert other workflows later17:55
mgedminthe idea of REST is to capture state, not transitions17:55
srichterright, but zope.wfmc models transitions17:55
ignas /persons/ignas/workflows/promotion/level17:55
mgedminto achieve a transition RESTively, you PUT the new state17:55
srichterand you cannot just say: now you are level X17:56
mgedminif that transition is allowed, your PUT succeeds17:56
ignas /persons/ignas/workflows/promotion/possible_actions17:56
mgedminif it is not, the server returns an error17:56
ignasand etc.17:56
ignasit's easy17:56
srichterhow does it work now? :-) (I have not looked at it for a long time)17:56
ignasit is not this way at the moment17:57
srichterbut every action might need different data associated with it17:57
ignasbut i'll describe what i want to see in there ...17:57
ignasin a day or two17:57
srichteranyway, send me an E-mail about a better approach and I fix it17:57
* mgedmin and ignas will sketch a possible RESTive solution in a mail to schooltool-dev, after some food17:57
srichterok, thanks17:57
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th1aThe big use case that has to shake out is complex import/export maneuvers.17:58
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th1aThat's a biggie for real school sys admins.17:58
jintyaargh why does the mysql zope database adapter print the connection info (including the password) on stdout?17:58
th1aSo we either need some sort of flexible and extensible CSV/XML import/export web interface.17:59
srichterok, I am going back to implementing relaod; I am sure it will work now :-)17:59
th1aOr we show people how to construct them using scripts and web services.17:59
th1aWe'll try the second one first.17:59
pips1th1a: did i get it right: tarballs on friday, "proper" release (.deb/mac installer) wednesday next week?18:01
th1aWe should have the installers done next Tuesday.18:02
pips1we are talking about the release branch only though? or will there be a development branch release too?18:03
pips1(BTW, or new term starts Monday next week)18:04
th1aThere will be a development miletstone in early November, but there won't be packages.  It is symbolic.18:04
pips1i see18:04
th1ajinty can get the .debs done quickly.  Is that what you need?18:04
th1aDid we decide you must use the development branch?18:05
pips1well, i'm not sure :-)18:05
th1aI don't think you need to.  Or ought to.18:05
pips1I guess it depends on how much is in the next release already18:05
jintyonly bufixes will be in the friday release18:06
pips1I think you said it right: I will use the first release that has all I need... :-)18:06
th1aOh, that's right.18:06
th1aThe CSV stuff is in the development branch.18:06
pips1but i'm interested in helping / pushing the things that I *do* need ;-)18:07
pips1I want to write a reply to your mail about the scope of Schooltool 2006... but I need some time to think about it/formulate...18:08
th1aWell, it leaves you a bit outside because we really have to focus on primary/secondary schools.18:10
pips1I recently had a chat with the timetable manager at my school and I found out that having good timetable/calendars really is a need - this doesn't only mean interactive web calendars, but there is clearly also a need to display the calendar data in various (non-interactive) formats too, such as printed list views (=compact overviews), and also a "non-flexible" html display (i.e. with a set...18:17
pips1...pixel screen size) as a digital display at the entrace of the school ...18:17
th1aYeah, I can imagine that.18:18
pips1the pdf calendar view is already quite good, since it is a list view, rather than a table view, the information is compact18:19
th1aThat's what I was thinking.18:19
pips1th1a: how do you think focussing on primary/secondary schools will help? don't you think schooltool needs to be flexible (thus expensive to develop) anyway?18:25
pips1(I don't think this question can be answered, really :-)18:26
th1aHaving something complete and testable in the spring is of paramount importance.18:26
th1aIn my opinion, if we do that, we're over the hump.18:26
th1aIf not, 2006 will be a long year.18:26
pips1what do you mean by long year?18:27
th1aLike, another year goes by with no real SchoolTool.18:28
pips1I see18:28
th1aWe'll never again jam out an August release for use in the fall.18:28
pips1Yeah, that's not early enough at all :-)18:29
pips1I agree18:29
th1aGiven the constraints, it was better to get it out than not.18:29
th1aAbout the only thing we could have done differently is not support timezones.18:30
th1aThat would have sped things up a bit.18:30
pips1Yes, you are probably right.18:30
pips1Lots of bug related to that...18:30
pips1or maybe not many, but they are confusing18:31
th1aThe interaction between client and server is inherently confusing.18:31
pips1I think you definitely want some schools on-board...joining the dev process. How is it looking in that respect?18:32
th1aI'm writing up a formal request to be published shortly.18:33
th1aI'll send it to the list tonight, hopefully.18:33
th1aWe've got two ideal schools in the US at this point, none elsewhere.18:33
th1aSA schools shouldn't be a problem.18:34
th1aSo we need a couple in Europe.18:34
pips1(either people are very quiet, or there aren't that many?!)18:34
th1aWell, I haven't asked for volunteers lately.18:34
th1aOur profile is getting higher.  I don't think it will be a problem.18:35
th1aI want a small number of schools we can closely support.  6 - 8.18:35
pips1so what about SA schools? are you in touch with the shuttleworth foundation folks?18:35
th1aYes, but as I said, I haven't asked for volunteers yet.18:36
erchachei cant run my site 1.2.2 on spanish.....why?18:40
erchachei used make build update-translations but page are on english :-S18:41
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erchachehas any bug schoolbell 1.2.2 about translation? doesnt run on my site O_o19:37
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erchachelocales looks good19:41
erchachewhy dont select correct....i force config file to load es_ES and doesnt run.... :-s19:41
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jintyerchache do you have a src/schoolbell/app/locales/es_ES/LC_MESSAGES/ file?19:51
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erchacheschooltool calendar....schooltool.....schoolbell....what the f...!20:24
erchachewhat are the functionality of schooltool calendar? O_o20:25
th1aIt is the current release of SchoolTool.20:25
erchacheand why change the name?20:28
erchachemore complicated!20:28
th1aWell, the overall scope of SchoolTool has always been much bigger than calendaring.20:29
erchachei know...but its not clear on webpage.....can add more confusion about that...20:30
erchacheahhhh you finished calendars and now are growing on functionalities....ok ok...dont worry20:30
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erchachewell....officially we are put on production mode server....
erchacheth1a: translation doesnt run! HEEEEEEEELLLLLLLP20:45
erchacheim on schoolbell 1.2.2 from source and make build update-translations doesnt run20:45
th1aerchache:  Unfortunately, I don't understand i18n at all.20:45
erchacheth1a: and how i can solve it....jinty?20:46
erchachejinty: are you here?20:46
erchacheoooooooohhhhh my god....looks very very good....good job! ;D20:47
erchacheerase a event?...delete button are lost on 1.2.2?20:51
erchachewhat the fu....20:51
erchacheahhh i know...i know how to delete a event... ;P20:52
jintyerchache: re i18n, do you have a src/schoolbell/app/locales/es_ES/LC_MESSAGES/ file?21:00
erchacheand .po21:02
erchachei execute: make build update-translations without errors21:03
jintyand you changed the paths in /usr/bin/schoolbell?21:03
erchacheno...its from source21:03
erchacheare contained on /usr/local/schoolbell21:03
erchachesee on
erchacheis on english....i want spanish21:04
erchachei force to load es_ES on schoobell.conf.in21:04
jintytry not to;)21:05
bskahan decent article21:05
jintyi. just remove the lang directive21:05
erchacheits curious because on command line appears....leyendo configuracion del archivo....21:08
erchachenothing....1.2.2 doesnt translate into spanish21:08
jintyworks for me;)21:08
erchacheme no :S21:08
jintydo you want me to send you a screen shot of your website in spanish?21:08
jintybecause I am looking at it right now21:09
erchachea second...21:09
erchachebut...persons...and resources....21:10
erchachecan change name?21:10
erchacheon my mac.....doesnt show spanish....gets english :-S21:10
* jinty personally thinks the lang config file option is totally borked...21:10
erchacheim too21:10
erchacheon my mac.....doesnt show spanish....gets english21:11
jintytry changing your browser settings...21:11
jintyi.e. tell your browser you want to browse in spanish21:11
erchachenothing....on safari and firefox....gets english21:12
erchacheon other computer....english too.....fuuu...21:13
jintyon firefox Edit->Preferences->general->languages21:13
erchacheyeah i do it...21:13
jintyis es at the top of your languages list in firefox?21:15
erchacheuhmmm...other error....when you install software....21:16
erchachepersons, groups, resources...on english......can be change to other language without problems?21:16
jintyin the url?21:16 webbrowser are good configured21:16
erchacheno...on interface....21:16
erchacheresources....can be changed.....or arent visible to final user?21:17
erchacheand if get data.fs and install 1.2.1 instead 1.2.2?21:18
jintysorry eveyone else, I'm changing to spanish so this goes easier21:18
jintyno se que quieres decir21:19
jintydonde exactamente?21:19
jintycerca de la Arriba >> calendar?21:20
erchacheno no...wait21:20
erchacheon navigation....left toolbar21:20
erchacheyou see....persons.....groups.....resources.....can be translate into spanish without effects on data.fs?21:20
erchacheor are21:21
erchachei think no....21:21
erchacheother question.....can get data.fs of 1.2.2 and use it on 1.2.1?21:21
erchachebecause i remember 1.2.1 runs properlly21:21
jintylet me check21:23
erchachedont change database structure?21:34
erchachewell....i finished on my job....21:36
erchachei will try it tomorrow and say results21:36
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mcanspeaking turkish21:36
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