IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2005-10-19

th1aThere aren't any SchoolTool experts sitting around twiddling their thumbs.00:01
jelkneri understand, but i would argue (and i think you'd agree) that cando success is very helpful to schooltool00:02
jelknerif we can't handle this, we are in trouble00:02
jelkner(and other things like it that come up -- /jelkner hopes there won't be many!)00:02
th1ajelkner:  I'm sure Paul can get advice from the developers.00:03
pcarduneI would have to agree with Tom00:03
th1aBut in the longer term we need a real system.00:03
th1aI don't have any resources at my disposal to do that.00:03
jelknerpcardune: ok, but what if you run out of time, have a paper due the next day, and dave needs the fix so 30 teachers are not complaining to him?00:04
th1aI don't have any employees.  I only have contractors.00:04
jelknerth1a: i understand about the long term need to grow the developer community00:04
pcardunewell, if I can't do it, a schooltool person won't be able to do it either in that kind of time frame unless they know the CanDo code inside and out as I do00:04
th1aIt isn't a philosophical difference.00:04
jelknerpcardune: do you think you can handle this in the time you have available, then?00:06
jelknerok, please let us know right away if you can't00:06
jelknerand tom, dave, and i can postpone the longer term discussion until a bit later00:06
jelknerth1a: is this the kind of thing i should ask mark about?00:08
th1aRegarding Mark, I would say that after April, when we will hopefully have demonstrated that a full version of SchoolTool will be running in real schools, then we should ask to have a full time programmer for handling these kinds of bug fixes.00:09
pcarduneoops  I meant jelkner, will do00:09
th1aI'm very reluctant to ask Mark for more and more resources at this point.00:10
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jelknerth1a: i'm not asking for a hand out, i want someone we can pay00:11
flinthi there sportsfans...00:11
th1ajelkner:  I'm not sure why you think Mark or I has the answer to that question.00:11
th1aI need to find someone to write a gradebook.00:11
th1aI'll be writing emails to Zope 3 developers and shops.00:12
jelkneri'm not saying he has the solution, but we need to broaden the discussion00:12
jelknerthis is a business issue for cannonical, i think00:12
th1aWell, there has never been any connection between SchoolTool and Canonical.00:13
th1aIf you want to tell Mark what he should do with Canonical, then mazel tov.00:13
flinttom, the deal here is that schooltool and thus also cando are a different market from ubuntu00:15
flintubuntu is for the "Hacker Boy" schooltool and by extention cando are for the EITs00:15
flintby EITs I mean the Educational Institutional Technologist.  This is where the money is.00:16
jelknerth1a: i'm not trying to be presumptous00:16
jelknerand i'm certainly not trying to tell cannonical what to do00:16
flintI know that you are supported directly by Mr. Shuttleworth, and are beyond any deliberations regarding cannonical00:16
jelknerbut they clearly want a business model for cannonical00:16
jelkneri believe the school market is certainly part of that00:16
jelknerso i'm just trying to help00:17
th1aI know you're not trying to cause problems :-)00:17
jelkneranyway, in either case, we need a solution to this problem00:18
jelknermy approach is to ask anyone i think might want to help us00:18
th1aIt is just that Mark has never shown one iota of inclination towards tying SchoolTool to Canonical or vice versa.00:18
flintTom, a bit off subject, I presume you are going to be at UBZ?00:19
dwelshWelsh with small wrap-up.00:19
dwelshProblem #2 looks well within our power.00:19
dwelshProblem #1 bears ongoing study.00:20
dwelshPaul up and going on both.l00:20
flintI think that school tool transcends the whole ubuntu activity Tom.00:20
dwelshPaul also making small change to way % competent computes.00:20
dwelshLast, and maybe paul could use help with this,00:20
dwelshwe would like a mouse over competency number to generate of pop-up00:21
dwelshof the competency description.00:21
dwelshi.e. when you mouse over "001"00:21
dwelshyou would get popped-up00:21
dwelsh"Put camera securely on tripod."00:21
dwelshThere's probably some canned code for this somewhere.00:21
pcardunein otherwords how do you do mouse overs? javascript? css? html?!00:22
th1aI think the answer might be all of the above.00:22
th1aIt shouldn't be hard.00:22
pcarduneI have to run to another meeting now, but I'll be working on these problems later today00:24
th1aOne last thought from me:00:24
th1aIt may be helpful to assimilate CanDo more completely into SchoolTool, both code and organization-wise.00:24
th1aI'm not sure.00:25
th1aBut it is something we should think about.00:25
th1aI'm not exactly sure what I mean by that, either.00:25
pcarduneI believe that is the plan tentatively with schooltool and cando 200600:25
pcardunewith zpackages00:26
jelknerbut in the shorter term, we need to get this support issue resolved00:26
pcarduneim not sure there is a support issue00:26
pcarduneor at least one that is *that* earth shattering00:27
jelknerpcardune: i hope you are right00:27
th1aI agree with pcardune.00:27
jelknerok, let's hope00:27
pcarduneso far, i have been able to get all the help i need without any problems, and so far, I have dealt with all the bugs in a timely manner00:27
th1aYou've set your course and it would be difficult to change it at this point.00:27
jelknerdave is the one who will catch hell when something is seriously broken00:27
jelknerand then i'll catch hell from dave00:27
jelknerit is our job to anticipate that and to put a plan in place to minimize the chance of that happening00:28
th1aTo find someone to take over a codebase that was written by students, grafted onto an application of questionable maturity on a not-very widely used or understood framework, would be difficult.00:28
pcardunewell said00:28
jelkneryes, but we still need to do it00:28
th1aThat's the crux of the issue.00:28
th1aI think it is more likely that you ride out the year with pcardune.00:29
jelknerbut we've talked enough about this for one meeting00:29
th1aQuite frankly, the alternative is probably worse.00:29
jelknerok, dave and i will also be talking to devIS about this00:30
pcarduneIt's going to get better with 2006... and we already told all the 2005 users to expect bugs and have patience00:30
jelknerso i'll keep thinking about it, day and night ;-)00:30
pcarduneok, goodbye all00:31
jelknercya, pcardune, and good luck!00:32
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jelknerth1a: tom, here is what i'm asking...00:35
jelkneri understand that you have contractors, and not employees00:35
flintTom, can the Programmers of Vilneas be hired to fix this login problem?00:35
jelknerif paul can't handle it?00:36
jelkneror things like this that come up?00:36
th1aNo, because they're now doing work on a non-SchoolTool contract.00:36
th1aThey don't only work for us.00:36
jelkneroh, so who is working on schooltool?00:36
th1asrichter is.00:36
flintthey are contractors.  how much of their time is devoted to this other contract?00:37
th1aI'll get POV back in the beginning of November.00:37
th1aFor a month.00:37
th1aIn which time they have to write the first iteration of the attendance tracker.00:37
flintnovember is two weeks away00:37
jelkneri now think i know what "making cando more a part of schooltool" would mean...00:38 nobody can change their passwod until Thanksgiving...:^)00:39
jelknerit means convincing the powers that be that cando support is as important as other parts of schooltool development00:39
flintcando should be getting all security services of any kind from the schooltool code00:39
th1aI need to spend a little time with CanDo.00:41
dwelshJeff:  let's you and me touch base over the next day or two.00:43
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dwelshI'm away Wed pm and Thurs at PA Tech College, the super bowl of career tech00:43
dwelshthey're ALSO interested in Cando00:44
dwelshbut will be available via mobile00:44
dwelshthanks in meantime for all help, guys.  Esp. th1a00:44
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flinttom, can the schooltool person maintain I&A and the cando person merely be linked by username to the schooltool person?00:47
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th1aNot sure what you mean, flint.00:54
jelknerth1a: flint is on the phone with someone, i'm sure he'll return shortly...00:55
flintAs i understand the problem tom, once you try to change the password, suddenly you cannot log in any more.  Is that so?00:57
th1aYou can't navigate to CanDo, as I understand it.00:58
th1aBut the regular SchoolTool components still work.00:58
flintwhen I was involved in the cando development process, one thing that did not impress me was the hubris of the cando developers.  Did they develop their own Identification and Authorization (I&A) method?00:59
flintThe impression that I get is that in order to expand required roles they did.01:00
th1a There is definitely some hubris, but I don't think they wrote their own I&A.01:01
flintIf I were to build a schooltool module that say kept track of student milk money, I would use your I&A module to validate my userbase.01:02
th1aI'm sure they did that.01:02
th1aThe bug is cryptic.01:02
th1aAnd it only happens on one server.01:02
flintok, so I am back to trying to figure out what is broke.01:02
flintso it could be zope3 install specific?01:02
th1aYou can tweak the permissions from the web interface.01:03
th1aSo they were looking at that.01:03
th1aWhether something got changed that shouldn't have.01:03
th1aBut it isn't acting like that sort of problem,01:04
th1afrom what I understand.01:04
flintyea baby that's zope...  why not bring in the zope mafia from Fredrick Maryland to fix this?01:04
jelknerand who would pay for that?01:04
th1aI think the logical next step is to have pcardune discuss it with our developers.01:04
flinttom can you reproduce this bug?01:04
th1aI've been trying to get a running instance of CanDo here.01:05
th1aThe trunk doesn't want to work.01:05
flintI think that having Paul talk to your folks is a fine idea.01:05
flintso you and I share the position of not having a working instance.01:05
th1aThat's what we've been doing all along.01:05
th1aI guess I should be able to apt-get one if I can figure out what repository to use.01:06
jelknerflint: the only thing we were discussing was what happens when pcardune doesn't have time to fix something01:06
jelknerthe basic issue is this: i have a problem to solve and money to pay someone to solve it.01:06
jelknerbut there is no one to pay01:07
jelknerit is the old free software support issue01:07
th1aDid you try talking to Zope Corp?01:07
flintelkner tom cannot reproduce this problem.01:07
flintthat's what I'm talking about Tim and the Zope mafia...01:07
jelknerif someone wanted to reproduce the problem, here is what they could do:01:08
th1aI haven't tried to reproduce it.01:08
jelkner1. apt-get install cando01:08
jelkner2. get a copy of dave's data.fs01:08
jelkner3. look at the problem01:08
th1ajelkner:  What's the URL for the cando repository?01:08
th1aI suppose it is somewhere on
jelknerhold on...01:08
flinteklner, do you have two running copies of the bug or one?01:09
jelkner deb breezy main01:09
jelknercheck out the docs here:
jelknerflint: only one01:10
* jinty is also trying to reproduce the bug01:10
jintywith no success and decides to go to bed instead01:15
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flint_tom, could we set up a test copy of zope / schooltool / cando on a linode?01:21
th1aThere is a demo version running somewhere.01:23
th1ajelkner:  On which port does the .deb run?01:23
th1aThat dwelsh set up.01:23
flint_what do you mean the .deb?  zope3 will set up on any port...01:23
flint_oh I see where you are going...01:24
th1aI mean, I just apt-get-ed CanDo, which is now running on my box, but where?01:24
th1aI'm sure I can track it down myself.01:24
flint_I gotta go to another meeting.  look at the linode way out.01:24
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th1aOK, found it: 728001:25
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5286:01:30
povbot/svn/commits: Make sure testbrowser is loaded.01:30
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5287:01:31
povbot/svn/commits: Add missing attribute and method to interface.01:31
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5288:01:33
povbot/svn/commits: Converted all calls to datetime.datetime.utcnow().01:33
jelknerth1a: sorry, i was away, yup it's 7280 ;-)01:37
jelknerth1a: why does it seem that flint can never actually leave our channel here?01:39
jelknerhe quit, but he is still listed as here01:39
th1aBeats me.01:39
jelknerlast time he was listed as here for weeks01:39
jelkneruntil tvon manually logged him out01:39
jelkneranyway, i gotta run01:40
th1abye jelkner.01:40
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5289:13:41
povbot/svn/commits: Oops, not everyone has this.13:41
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erchachewhere is rosetta url for spanish translation?16:59
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erchacheth1a: well...17:16
erchacheim going to translate es_ES from rosetta....and after can be copied to es17:17
erchachebecause i see internet explorer uses es instead es_ES....and can be wrong17:17
erchachepufff....i cant enter on launchpad to translate schoolbell es_ES17:20
erchacheare carlos here?17:20
erchachei cant enter on launchpad to translate schoolbell es_ES...i send a bug...and ask for copy all es_ES translation into es17:23
erchachebecause internet explorer and common program uses es instead es_ES17:23
erchachei only need to translate new .po files and make a persisten daemon for schoolbell from source17:24
erchachedo you make any documentation?17:24
erchachedo i do that?17:24
erchacheim at your orders....17:24 at your orders in 30 going to take a coffee now ;P17:25
th1aerchache:  I'd track down and modify the Debian init script.18:11
th1aDo these sound like reasonable specs for SchoolTool 2006 test sites:18:11
th1a1.5 ghz cpu, 512 MB RAM18:11
th1aI don't think you could buy a disk small enough to be a problem.18:12
th1aThose would be minimum numbers.18:13
bska|mobileth1a: that sounds about right, but we still have no idea what performance is like in a real worl production environment (eg. 25 teachers logging in concurrently at 8am)18:16
th1aWell, as long as they don't log in at exactly the same second, I don't see that it would be a problem, and even then, a transient one.18:18
bska|mobileI think those numbers sound right for what we know now18:19
th1aI don't want to make something overly scary.18:19
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* bska|mobile noda18:21
bska|mobilenods even18:21
th1aAlthough I suppose I should just write that the size of the server must be proportionate to the size of the school.18:22
bska|mobilethat would be a could comment in addition to the minimum specs18:23
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erchacheor would be cached?18:43
erchacheim here again18:50
erchachedo you make any previous documentation to include on new release of schoolbell/tool?18:51
th1aI have not written anything that is in the tarball.  I've been writing some things on the website.18:52
erchacheall i write on website goes to svn?18:55
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erchachewhat backup system do you use? i want to install a incremental backup system19:35
erchachei was running with dd and kbackup for incrementals19:35
erchachebut this is not all secure i want :-S19:35
th1aI'm not sure what the best system for backing up your Data.fs is.19:35
erchacheno no...for entire site too...19:35
bska|mobilewhat's the timezone offset between london and vilnius?19:42
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SteveAbskahan: vilnius is 2 hrs ahead19:52
SteveAit is 2 hrs later here19:52
bska|mobileSteveA: thanks19:54
SteveAa fun approach to XP:
th1aSteveA:  We'll have to talk at some point about how to approach the endgame of bugfixing and deployment in our contract-based system here.19:56
th1aThat is, as schools are seriously testing and deploying SchoolTool, we'll need developers ready to respond.19:57
th1aActually, it is perhaps just a matter of writing some more time-based contracts.19:58
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 5290:20:05
povbot/svn/commits: Partial fix for timezone display range bugs.  Remaining issue with events that start after midnight in your timezone.20:05
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*** tvon has quit IRC21:06 i can enter into Data.fs ala phpmyadmin?21:20
erchache<lammerquestion> :-P21:20
mgedminerchache, you can't, not easily21:23
mgedminyou could by writing python code21:23
* mgedmin has disabled anonymous email registration for -- no more issue spam!21:23
erchachemgedmin: :-S21:25
erchacheuhmmm i think my jobmate juanan need to learn python/zope....hehehe i make a advice on my TO-DO learn python/zope...21:27
erchachea good book?21:27
mgedminerchache, just what do you want to achieve?21:27
erchacheall my friends says zope is the big shit of the world! tooo large and tedious21:27
mgedminSubject: Failed issue tracker submission21:28
mgedminYou are not a registered user.21:28
erchachei want to access to Data.fs data structure and can make select statments directly21:28
mgedminyes! my spam prevention works!21:28
erchachehehehehe good.21:28
mgedminerchache, there are no SELECT statements in ZODB -- it is not a relational database21:28
mgedminalthough Python's list comprehensions are very similar to OQL queries21:29
erchacheannnn a binary file....ok21:29
erchacheyou must use zope like a interpreter no?21:29
mgedminzope 3 comes with a 'debugzope' script21:29
mgedminyou run bin/debugzope21:29
mgedminyou get an interactive python prompt21:29
mgedminwherein you can access objects from the ZODB21:29
erchacheargghhhh im a lammer noob on these questions.....i need a superspeed course about that21:29
mgedmin(it sets up the path and everything)21:29
mgedminperhaps it would be worthwile for schooltool to provide a similar script as well21:30
mgedminerchache, it is easier to talk about concrete examples rather than vague abstractions21:30
mgedmin"make select statements" directly is a rather vagueish abstraction21:30
erchacheok ok21:30
erchachei dont know about are talking ;-P21:31
mgedmincould you give a more concrete example of what sort of queries you want to do?21:31
erchachemy boss wants stadistics of ocupation via schoolbell21:31
mgedminwhat is "occupation" in schoolbell context?21:32
erchachefor example: i want to know which is number of hours of ocupation of resourcer x in this year21:33
erchachei want to know how many hours works this teacher a year21:33
erchacheans similar21:33
mgedminI see21:33
mgedminprobably the simplest thing would be to write a schooltool plugin21:34
mgedmina single python module + a single zcml file in a python package21:34
mgedmindefining one view21:35
mgedminthe zope 3 developers book could be a good start21:35
mgedminit is available in bookstores, and you can download a PDF from www.zope.org21:35
erchachei have this...21:40
erchacheim reading now :-P21:40
erchachehahahaha i can connect with everything but ms sql21:41
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povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 5291:22:05
povbot/svn/commits: events that start tomorrow in your timezone no longer blow out the day view calendar boundaries.22:05
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