IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2005-08-04

pcarduneany idea how I can make use of these things called widgets in my page templates?00:15
pcarduneI see how to do it for an add and edit form, but what about just in a regular old page?00:16
tvonwidgets are only used for form elements00:16
tvonhrm, I wonder if a batching widget would be useful00:17
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pcarduneright, and I want to include a widget in my form...00:17
* tvon is always looking for ways to make simple things more complicated00:17
gintaspcardune, widgets in Zope 3 are not trivial00:18
gintasyou might want to look around the existing code00:18
srichterpcardune: basically you create a schema for your page template widgets00:19
gintasbasically, during initialization you call setUpEditWidgets (or setUpDisplayWidgets if you don't need editing) with a schema00:19
srichterand then use the new browser:form directive00:19
pcardunebut they should be!  widgets should be an easy thing, like widgets in wxpython or in Tkinter!00:19
srichtergintas is right00:19
srichterpcardune: no, widgets in wx or Tkinter is like writing the HTML manually00:20
gintasand then use getFormData (or whatever it's called), to pull data into widgets from the submitted request00:20
srichterwidgets are reposnible for marshelling the value they represent to HTML format and back00:20
gintasin SchoolTool we usually use mixins to abstract this low-level stuff00:20
srichterthey also verify the value00:20
gintasI believe WidgetBasedForm is a fair example00:20
gintasyou can have a look and see how it uses widgets00:21
pcardunesee, this is where i begin to get lost, but i'll give it a shot anyways...00:21
gintasok, WidgetBasedForm is from a different project, it's not in schooltool ;)00:22
pcarduneit wouldn't happen to be in tiks? (this is what I'm trying to use a widget from)00:22
gintashave a look at PersonEditView00:23
gintasand '' as the corresponding template00:23
pcardunehello, that looks like the ticket, thanks00:23
gintasit shows how to position individual widgets in your webpage00:24
gintasdon't look at the adding views, those are messy00:24
gintaseven I don't understand them completely ;) (maybe I did, but then I forgot)00:24
tvonwhen exactly did all our forms grown their own css/layout?00:33
tvoner, s/grown/grow/00:33
tvonit's like warring factions00:34
srichtertvon: thanks for the beautification of the Developer Tools menu00:43
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bskahanyay, new dsl finally installed00:50
bskahanthe neighbors will be pleased00:50
srichterbskahan: check out the introspector in devmode00:52
bskahansrichter: just did, very cool00:52
bskahanI've never really used it because I generally work on schooltool in standalone00:53
bskahanso I couldn't access the zope3 interface00:53
bskahanthis is cool00:53
srichternote that I wrote this specifically for SB/ST00:53
srichterthis introspector is not available in Zope 3 yet00:54
srichterthough I will port it00:54
bskahanthere is an introspector for zope 3 though, right?00:54
srichterbut it is shitty :-)00:55
srichterno really, it just shows the directly provided interfaces right now00:55
bskahanold and busted vs. new hotness00:56
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srichterlet me know if you would like to see other things too00:59
tvon@@configure.html for the error reporting tool00:59
srichterah, yes01:00
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4528:01:18
povbot/svn/commits: Created initial version of the book section about SchoolBell in apidoc.01:18
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4529:01:58
povbot/svn/commits: Created to menu entries in schoolbell_actions that provide access to the configuration and errors list of the error reporting utility.01:58
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4530:07:18
povbot/svn/commits: Customized apidoc to schoolbell. This includes custom Code, Interface and Book module contents and a custom style sheet so that everything looks more like schoolbell.07:18
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4531:07:25
povbot/svn/commits: Oops, buglet crept in during renaming.07:25
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4532:08:14
povbot/svn/commits: Patch ZCMLModule code, since it depends on the way Zope 3 is started.08:14
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4533:14:19
povbot/svn/commits: Added .txt suffix to text files for consistency with SchoolTool.14:19
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4534:14:21
povbot/svn/commits: Merged revision 4533 from trunk (add .txt suffix to text files).14:21
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4535:14:29
povbot/svn/commits: Cosmetic fixes.14:29
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4536:14:29
povbot/svn/commits: Include schoolbell.batching in dist.14:29
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4537:14:51
povbot/svn/commits: Debian stuff is now separate.14:52
povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4538:14:59
povbot/svn/commits: title underline was too short14:59
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4539:15:00
povbot/svn/commits: Cosmetic fixes.15:00
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4540:15:00
povbot/svn/commits: Updated includes in
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srichtergppd morning everyone15:09
srichtergood morning everyone15:09
srichterI have finished yesterday the custom apidoc and some other developer goodies15:09
srichterplease check it out and let me know any criticism, so I can fix it.15:10
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4541:15:11
povbot/svn/commits: Ported revisions 4535, 4536, 4537, 4539 and 4540 (mostly distutils packaging fixes).15:11
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4542:15:24
povbot/svn/commits: Debian stuff is now separate.15:24
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4543:15:26
povbot/svn/commits: Cosmetic fixes to
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4544:15:33
povbot/svn/commits: Tweaked the look a bit more.15:33
srichteranyone here?15:33
srichterI would like to discuss the RESTive API help15:33
srichterSteveA: you are welcome, as original author, to join the discussion15:34
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SteveAsrichter: sorry -- too busy at the launchpad sprintathon in brazil15:36
SteveAthanks for the thought15:36
bskahansrichter: what are you thinking?15:41
srichterbskahan: not much right now15:42
srichterbskahan: what would you think is the best way to document REST?15:42
srichterhow should the documentation be organized?15:43
srichterI would say that you should be able to look up RESTive views by interface15:43
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4545:15:43
povbot/svn/commits: Updated and to reflect changes to the source tree.15:43
srichterthen maybe sort the views by HTTP verb in the details?15:43
bskahansorting on the HTTP verb would be useful15:44
srichterwhat info would you like to see for each view?15:44
bskahanlooking at the code now15:45
bskahanthere aren't many interfaces in
srichternow, I mean other schoolbell/tool interfaces15:46
srichterlike you click on IPerson15:46
srichterand a screen comes up saying15:46
srichterfor IPerson, you have GET, POST, PUT, DELETE ....15:47
srichterunder each verb it lists the views it knows15:47
gintassounds good15:47
* bskahan nods15:47
srichterif we have the RNG schema, I can even provide info about that15:49
srichternote that we do have the schema on several views15:49
srichterI wonder whether we should make it a convention to always have the schema available15:50
gintasschemas are not hard to create15:55
srichteryep, that's why15:55
gintashaving it as a convention might be a good idea, I do not think it would be a big burden15:55
srichterand it would greatly enhance the documentation15:55
gintasand possibly reliability of code15:55
gintas(in the case of invalid documents)15:56
srichteralso, how would you like the schema to appear in the documentation?15:56
srichterLeave it as XML or try to interpret it?15:56
srichterCan the interpretation offer some value in comparison to the XML?15:56
gintasI'd say, make it XML, then we'll see15:56
srichter(i.e. additional links to other documentations, reference to PYthon types, etc)15:57
gintasdisplaying XML is a step towards displaying interpreted schemas, so we can improve this incrementally15:57
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4546:16:00
povbot/svn/commits: Export debian stuff instead of copying it to avoid .svn dirs.  Skip the svn export if a corresponding directory is already available.16:00
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4547:16:04
povbot/svn/commits: Ported revisions 4542, 4543, 4545 (distutils packaging fixes).16:04
gintastvon, are you there? what's the status of issue 316 (calendar widgets not used in all views)?16:09
gintasby the way, I guess I need more rights in to post releases16:11
gintasis Tom Hoffman the only one who can grant the rights?16:12
srichtergintas: did he arrive well over there?16:12
bskahangintas: Tom and maybe Marius16:13
gintaswell, Marius is on holiday16:13
srichtergintas: Tom should be near16:14
gintassrichter, he's in Vilnius, but I haven't had a chance to see him yet16:14
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4548:16:34
povbot/svn/commits: Added Japanese translation of debconf templates by Shimono Atsushi.16:34
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4549:16:35
povbot/svn/commits: Added the standard path to msttcorefonts in default ST/SB configuration files.  A side-effect is that a warning will be printed when the server is started if the fonts are not available, but I think that this makes sense.16:35
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4550:17:44
povbot/svn/commits: Updated Debian changelogs, bumped version numbers to rc2.17:44
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4551:17:45
povbot/svn/commits: Bumped version to rc2.17:45
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4552:17:46
povbot/svn/commits: Bumped version to rc2.17:46
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4553:18:05
povbot/svn/commits: Removed an apparently extraneous quote in the new ja.po which msgmerge complains about.18:05
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4554:18:12
povbot/svn/commits: More references to .txt files that I missed earlier.18:12
tvonWill reportlab work with non ms fonts?18:12
tvonCan we just ship (or in Debian, set the path to) Bitstream Vera fonts?18:13
tvonah, we'd need to embed the fonts18:15
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th1aComing to you live from POV central in Vilnius.18:25
srichterth1a: hello there!18:25
srichterth1a: I made some good progress on some of the documentation fronts18:31
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4555:18:31
povbot/svn/commits: - Added Annotations explorer to Introspector. Check it out; it's cool. I18:31
povbot/svn/commits: finally understand what the introspector is all about: Inspecting the *state* (iow data) of the object, not the API.18:31
povbot/svn/commits: - Started implementation od RESTive documentation.18:31
th1asrichter:  Good.18:31
srichterit's all in schoolbell right now18:32
th1aWhat should I do to see it?18:32
srichterand you have to turn on devmode in schoolbell.conf[.in]18:32
th1aAh, nice.18:32
tvonsvn up, turn on devmode, start server18:32
srichterth1a: tvon helped me with the UI a bit :-)18:32
tvonsrichter: it occours to me that the devmode menu could just as well be in the sidebar...18:33
tvonthen again it wouldn't show up on all pages that way18:33
bskahanth1a: hey18:33
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4556:18:33
povbot/svn/commits: Tagging schoolbell 1.2rc2.18:33
th1abskahan:  Hey.18:33
srichtertvon: no, I really want it up there as an eycatcher, so you remember that it is turned on18:33
* tvon nods18:33
th1aI read through the new O'Reilly Moodle book on the way up.18:34
th1aI think we can use their basic UI structure.18:34
th1aWhich is clean and straightforward.18:34
* tvon is working on a ui writeup18:35
bskahanI just got a moodle demo account, haven't tried it yet18:35
th1atvon:  OK.18:35
srichterI think I will port devmode and the new introspector to Zope 3 (or at least write a proposal for it)18:36
tvonth1a: mostly layout/guidelines at this point (as opposed to application flow)18:36
tvonsrichter: that would be cool18:36
tvonsrichter: btw, what is the ZC pagelet system called or where might I find info on it?18:36
srichterAC has not released it yet18:37
srichterif we go pagelet/portlet I think we should look at cpsskin for Zope 318:37
srichteror evaluate the stuff in the trunk18:37
srichterwhich we do not know of whether it will be ever supported18:37
tvonIt looks interesting but I've gotten the impression that it is largely flash demos and almost-working-but-not-in-zope html/javascript18:38
srichtermmh, I see18:38
tvonI'm just going by what I've seen on the z3 lists though18:38
srichterI think you should bring it up in the z3lab mailinglist and ask for it18:38
tvonI'm on that18:38
srichtertvon: did ya' see the annotations explorer in the introspector?18:39
tvonsrichter: was just updating to check it out18:39
srichterI think this has much more potential18:39
tvonsrichter: a big reason to push on portlets is so that devmode doesnt have to override view_macros18:40
srichteralso, if an object implements IMapping or ISequence I would love to display the values18:40
* tvon spent about 30 mins the other day trying to figure out why his changes werent showing up ;)18:40
srichtertvon: yeah, I know18:40
srichterwe really need to discuss this and invite some other people to join the discussion18:41
srichterI think a JimFultian restart is required here18:41
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4557:18:42
povbot/svn/commits: Tagging SchoolTool 0.11rc2.18:42
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4558:18:43
povbot/svn/commits: Added a clause to build binaries for libschooltool.  Changed wrong e-mail in changelog.18:43
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tvonth1a: the moodle nav is nice.  I had been thinking that there might be ways for us to ditch the sidebar almost entirely18:49
tvoneven though I think it's pretty18:49
th1aAh, well, Moodle is sidebar intensive.18:50
tvonah, apparently I havent gone far enough18:50
th1aFar enough into Moodle?18:50
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4559:18:50
povbot/svn/commits: Refactored my build-debs script.18:50
tvonah, there we go18:50
bskahanits a 3 column layout, portlet based18:50
tvonyeah, I see it now18:50
th1aActually, I guess I was specifically thinking about their left sidebar.18:51
th1aI don't have it in front of me.18:51
tvonin the course view?18:52
th1aI guess that's all I'm saying, really.18:52
th1a"Activities" in particular looked right.18:52
bskahantask based rather than location based18:53
bskahanthose links take you to the 'quizzes for this course' rather than 'all quizzes'18:53
tvonmakes sense18:54
srichterhopefully SchoolTool will become big enough at some point that I can write a book about it :-)18:54
th1aYes... I guess I am just expressing a vague sense of approval.  Nothing very specific or thought out.18:54
th1asrichter:  I'm writing the SchoolTool book.18:55
srichterLOL :-)18:55
th1aI haven't started it yet, though.18:55
th1aI also want to write "School Hacks" for O'Reilly someday.18:55
bskahanth1a: that one's mine ;)18:55
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th1aAlthough when I mentioned it to someone who works on the Hacks series, he seemed dubious.18:56
srichterhe he18:56
* tvon goes afk to juggle the network19:01
srichterth1a: did you get the devmode to work?19:02
th1aI'm afraid I'm going to be catching up on email and news for the next couple hours.19:03
th1aI'll download everything from svn before I go so I can play with it tonight.19:03
th1aIs your level stuff in the trunk now?19:04
srichterI also backported testbrowser to Py 2.319:04
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4560:19:05
povbot/svn/commits: Removed app-log-file setting from default SchoolTool config, as this switch is not supported now.19:05
srichterth1a: this week I really became to hate the SB/ST code split; it needs to be someones top priority to merge the two; it's just too insane19:05
th1aSchoolTool is now the schwerpunkt.19:07
bskahannice teacher website19:09
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th1asrichter:  So Zope 3.1 will run as a Windows service?19:27
srichtergood question, but I think this was what19:28
srichterJim was working on19:28
th1asrichter:  Who would know the status of that?19:36
th1aShould I ask on zope3-dev?19:36
srichterI think there are several Windows users there19:37
srichterwhy isn't the Notes object itself a persistent list?20:04
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th1aThat CPSSkins portlet editor demo is pretty intense.20:18
srichterI think we just need the portlet code beneath20:19
th1aIt does seem like more than we need.20:19
bskahandynamically reconfigurable interfaces are hard to write documentation for20:19
th1aYeah, is that the user's point of view of the site manager's?20:20
bskahani think that is the site manager20:23
bskahanin the CPSS movie you mean?20:23
bskahansrichter: you think we're better off using that code than the pagelet code that's in trunk?20:23
srichterunfortunately I do not understand enough about pagelets and portlets to give educated advice20:24
srichterthe trunk stuff looks very complex, but that could be because I do not understand it20:24
srichterI have never looked at the cpsskin implementation20:24
srichterhold on ...20:25
bskahanthe Boston skin uses the pagelet code from trunk, correct?20:25
srichtermaybe it is time to start with a new page and develop one20:26
srichterand once one system wins we migrate (hopefully it will be ours)20:27
srichterthe key point will be simplicity20:27
bskahansrichter: that's my current inclination20:27
bskahanI don't dislike the pagelets system used in Boston though20:28
srichtermmh, so maybe we should use it and improve on it20:28
srichterthat's of course a second way to go20:28
bskahanI'm going to dig through the pagelet code some more and think about it20:29
srichterbenji just told me privately that the cpsskin stuff is not worth considering, if you do not want the UI stuff20:30
srichterZC is also not convinced about the pagelet stuff currently in the trunk20:31
srichterso maybe we should make our own design;20:31
srichterbskahan: please write a proposal that we can all discuss20:32
srichterI especially would like to see motivation and concrete use cases20:32
* bskahan nods20:34
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4561:20:36
povbot/svn/commits: Added missing security declaration.20:36
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4562:20:36
povbot/svn/commits: Implemented inspection of data, if the inspected object is a sequence or mapping.20:36
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eldarhow do you pass arguments in zpt20:36
eldarto a python function20:37
ignaseldar, you should avoid that20:37
ignas<div tal:content="python:, baz)" />20:38
pcardunebut can you do tal:content="string:${something/@@absolute_url}--${python:somefunc(somearg)}"20:39
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srichtereldar: never make real function calls in ZPT that require passage of arguments20:39
srichterPage templates should only pull information, never push20:40
srichterpcardune: eldar construct the URL in the view class20:40
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pcardunevery well then20:40
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srichterif you have many items, then create lists of info dictionaries20:41
srichterthis pattern is very common20:41
srichtersee the container contents view for example20:41
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gpaciHey, all.20:45
gpaciAnyone working over at Yorktown HS?20:46
pcardunei am...20:46
pcarduneexcept not20:46
gpaciWhat country are you in today?20:46
gpaciDo they speak English there?20:46
gpaciI think their president is from Austria.20:47
eldarhi george20:47
eldari don't see you in 21720:47
gpacieldar: Hey.  How's it going?  I'll be at 217 around 5:00.20:47
pcardunegpaci: you're so funny!20:47
gpacipcardune: Is that the best comeback you can come up with?  The sun there must be frying your brain.20:48
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ignaspcardune, and if you want to do something EVIL you can allways use <div tal:define="foo python: bad_evil_foo(arg)" />20:50
ignasand use foo inside of strings20:51
ignasbut YOU SHOULD NOT!20:51
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gpaciAre people actively programming at Yorktown 217?20:56
eldaroh yes20:57
eldarin the Austrian domain too20:57
gpacieldar: Who else is there?20:57
eldarall the students that usually come20:58
eldarjeff, of course20:58
eldarand flit will be coming with out lunch soon20:58
eldarout = our*20:59
bska|mobilesrichter: do you know what ZC's issues with the current pagelets system are?21:00
srichtermy guess would be it looks too massive to them21:00
srichterbska|mobile: do you like the implementation?21:01
bska|mobileI've gone through Boston pretty closely and it seems rational21:02
bska|mobilethis is the 3rd time I've heard that there's something lacking in the current pagelets implementation21:03
bska|mobilebut I haven't gotten a clear picture of _what_ people feel is missing21:03
srichterno, nothing is missing21:04
srichterbut I think the implementation seems very complex21:04
bska|mobilereading through the pagelets module now21:04
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pcardunewhat does the ':' in tal:define="user request/principal;21:20
pcardune                      url context/schoolbell:app/@@absolute_url"21:20
pcardune do?21:20
tvonI have no real issues with the current trunk pagelets... I've also heard that they suck from a number of sources21:26
tvonthe ideas Netalley has seem to appeal to everyone but they seem less enthused about actually implementing it21:27
srichtertvon: mmh, I have not heard any voices yet21:27
srichterdo you have concrete comments?21:27
tvonheh, actually no..21:27
tvonI might have it all in my head from talking to Netalley folks21:28
srichterpcardune: defines a variable user = request.principal and a veriable url that equals the default view's URL of the SchoolTool application object21:28
srichtertvon: oh those guys; I could really care less about them21:28
srichtertvon: they always promised things and never produced anything21:29
srichterI can talk smart as well21:29
srichterbut doing something is totally different21:29
tvonyeah... "show me the code" speaks volums in this community21:29
srichterand it should21:30
tvonyeah, definately21:30
srichteror at least a design document21:30
srichterthey have promised since 2 years a design to disucuss; I am not waiting anymore21:30
tvonwell, I don't have any strong interest in doing a pagelet implementation... maybe if shortcomings show up during implementation the current system could get patches from us though21:31
tvonI do have a strong interest in getting some sort of pagelet setup into schooltool though21:32
srichtertvon: bska|mobile: okay, then maybe we should go with what's in the trunk21:32
tvonI'm down with that21:32
srichterI am sure Roger will be very supportive21:32
srichterthe advantage of his code is that it runs in production on a fairly complex site21:33
bska|mobilesrichter: what site?21:34
srichterI forgot ;-)21:34
srichterAmadeus Switzerland21:34
tvonbska|mobile: is pageletifying ST something you are going to want to work directly on or should I include it in the UI stuff I'm working on?21:49
bska|mobilewhat UI stuff are you working on?21:50
tvonsame stuff I touched on before; organizing the layout, putting things in proper places relative to context.. coming up with a guide that people can follow in the future21:51
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bskahan_sorry about that, connection issues21:56
bskahan_sure, moving to pagelets could be seperate from that21:56
tvonand you want to do pagelets?21:56
bskahan_I'd be into moving to some sort of extensible system, pagelets in the zope tree seem to make sense now21:58
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tvonI'm all about moving, it's pretty crucial if we expect people to contribute add-on type packages22:00
tvonbut what I meant was, is it work you in specific want to do?22:01
tvonI think it would make sense to bundle with the UI work, but I guess it doesnt have to be22:02
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tvonwhat did you miss?22:07
bskahanreading backlog22:08
bskahanI'm happy to work on pagelets22:08
tvonIt would be easier for me to do it, if you are just happy to do it then I'll do it, if you *want* it then thats fine too22:09
bskahanok, then I want to do the pagelets22:11
bskahanstill reading
* tvon nods22:11
tvoncan get a little more by looking at boston or baltimore22:12
tvonthough baltimore didnt stray much from boston in terms of different pagelets or anything like that22:12
* bskahan nods22:12
tvonsrichter: a toy skin for a weblog system22:13
srichteri see22:14
tvonbasically boston with different css and some other tweaks I don't recall22:14
srichterI see22:15
srichteranything public to see?22:15
* tvon isn't even sure it still works22:15
bskahanI'm not sure how different it ended up from boston in implementation22:15
tvonIt's not very different... same things are pagelets.. just some template/style changes22:16
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srichterso you have nothing online?22:19
tvonrunnig with the skin? no, it is very incomplete22:19
srichteroh ok22:19
srichteractually looking at your ZCML, the pagelet code starts to make sense22:20
tvonsrichter: maybe you can get to this:
tvonnormal z3 user/pass22:21
tvon(but don't expect anything :) )22:22
srichterno, I can't; that's ok22:22
* tvon nods22:22
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