IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2005-08-05

srichteranyone still here?00:28
srichteris in REST GET & POST pretty much the same thing?00:28
gintassrichter, what?00:32
gintasGET is for getting state00:32
gintasPOST is for submitting data to be processed on the server00:33
gintasI'm not sure I understood the question00:33
srichterGET = view, POST = edit, PUT = add00:33
gintasnot necessarily00:34
gintasPUT could be edit too00:34
gintasGET and PUT are the inverses00:35
gintaswith PUT you 'put' data to a particular URI00:36
gintaslater if you try to 'GET' from that URI, you will receive the same data00:36
gintasthat's a simplified definition of PUT00:36
gintasif, on the other hand, you send data and it ends up in some different URI, or it is processed by the server and converted into a different format (or a side effect takes place), that's a POST00:37
gintasPUTs are usually idempotent (doesn't matter how many times you do it)00:37
gintasoh, I think I understood why you asked this ;) if you want to make a complex query, a POST might be favourable over GET00:43
srichterI am asking because of documentation00:44
srichterso every object, IPerson, IGroup, etc. should really have at most one GET, POST, PUT, DELETE00:45
srichtergintas: right?00:46
gintasobjects identified by URIs are 'nouns'00:46
gintasGET, POST, PUT, DELETE are the only allowed 'verbs'00:46
srichternow the tricky things will be the traversers00:47
srichterI might not get enough info from them00:47
gintasit's local code, so we can devise a convention to provide the missing info if it's really neaded00:48
gintasright, traversers can't tell what you can traverse into at the moment ('LIST')00:49
srichterI need to think about some good way to document this00:50
gintasno big deal, we can add a list (or a method) as an attribute for the traverser00:50
gintasyou should discern between 'container' traversers (dynamic) and 'component' traversers (static) though00:50
srichtermmhhh, this will be tough for the same reason00:51
srichterunless I check that the for attribute inherits IReadContainer00:52
gintasor you can make these 'static' traversers (e.g., PersonHTTPTraverser) implement some interface00:53
gintase.g., 'StaticTraverser' (bad name, I know)00:53
gintaswhich would have a method 'listChildren()' or something like that00:53
srichteryeah, but first I want to try not imposing new conventions00:54
srichterI want to impose only the most necessary ones00:54
srichterdarn, this is almost hopeless00:55
povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4563:00:57
povbot/svn/commits: Cosmetic fixes.00:57
gintascan't resist ;)00:58
srichterok, I agree with your following assessments:00:58
srichter- we need to differentiate between static and dynamic traversers00:59
srichter- we need some method or better property that tells us the output interface of the traversable names01:00
srichter<list done>01:01
srichterI think with any view deriving from we can do something special as well01:02
gintasbtw, I think you're doing a great job on these devmode niceties in general01:03
gintasI'm looking forward to the profiler in particular ;)01:04
srichterI am still not sure what I am going to do with the profiler01:14
srichterTom also has not officially assigned the task to me01:14
srichterit just came up in a later discussion01:14
srichtergintas: why isn't there a POST for IPerson01:20
srichterI guess PUT mainly is implemented for containers?01:22
gintasin SB usually we use PUT when we know where we want the object01:25
gintasi.e. PUT /container/object_id01:25
gintaswe use POST when we want the system to assign the id01:25
gintasPOST /container -> the object appears at /container/04301:25
srichterI see01:25
gintasbut PUT is not for containers, it's for the objects inside01:26
gintasyes, it's for containers01:26
srichtersp why is there no post for simple objects, like IPerson?01:26
gintas1:30 AM, not thinking straight ;)01:26
gintasprobably because when you create a person you have to specify a username01:26
srichterI know, but right now you ar ereally helpful :-)01:26
gintaswhich means that you know where your 'person' object will end up01:27
gintasso you might as well use PUT01:27
srichterok, so the PU for manipulating an IPerson is implemented in IPersonContainer01:27
gintasin the case of a resource, you might want to say "I don't care what the id of this resource will be, just create one", then you POST and the server puts the object wherever it wants01:28
srichterso that's the reson simple objects usually do not have a POST or PUT01:28
srichtersince POST and PUT are usually called from the container01:29
srichterso the sentence would be: in container POST data to simpleobj01:29
gintasit's because a PUT may create a new object01:29
gintasI'm not sure about POST01:29
srichterbut why not have a POST for IPerson then?01:30
gintasbecause PUT is sufficient01:30
srichterbasically saying: POST IPerson --> change data (title, description)01:30
gintasGET & PUT are simple, you only use POST when they are not sufficient01:30
srichterok, good to know01:30
gintasI'd say 'sentences' are 'nouns' (URIs), 'verbs' (GET/POST/etc.) and data01:32
srichterso really the synopsis for PUT is:01:32
gintasso 'in foo POST bar' is not entirely correct, because it would seem to imply two 'nouns'01:32
srichterPUT IPersonContainer/itemid01:32
gintasI meant 'in foo POST bar to baz'01:32
gintasyes, that's right01:33
srichterso PUT is registered for IPersonContainer01:34
srichterusing app.PersonContainerView01:34
srichterbut I do not see where the method PUT is implemented in that view01:34
gintashmm, it's been a while since I did anything with REST01:37
gintaslook at ApplicationObjectFileFactory, I think01:38
srichterok, thanks01:38
gintasPUTs are handled differently than GETs or POSTs, IIRC01:38
gintasI can't remember how exactly01:39
gintaslooks like they involve adapters to FileFactory01:39
srichteryeah, but how; this seems a bit like magic01:40
srichterok, somehow create() is called on GenericContainerView01:41
gintasyep, there's some magic that I don't like much01:43
gintasbut the magic is in Zope 301:43
srichterok, there is no PUT at all in
gintaslook at the ZCML01:46
srichterin fact in all of it is only in
gintasthere's a section for adapters related to PUT01:47
gintasthat might clear things up a bit01:47
srichterok, so the stuff that is interesting is in
srichterthose are actually used01:48
srichterI wonder whether I could just remove the PUT declaration in the sb configurataion01:49
gintasthat is likely01:51
gintasit could have sneaked in when porting01:51
srichteryep :-)01:52
srichterokay, now that makes sense01:53
srichternow there is no magic anymore :-)01:54
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4564:01:55
povbot/svn/commits: Implemented the Introspector view in devmode. Check it out; I think it could be useful. ;-)01:55
povbot/svn/commits: I still owe you guys some ftests for this code.01:55
gintasdoes that mean that I can go to sleep now? ;)01:55
srichteryes :-)01:55
srichterthanks a whole lot!01:55
gintasit's a pleasure having you onboard01:57
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povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4565:12:35
povbot/svn/commits: Create a branch for my experiments packging schoolbell without a Zope3 external.12:35
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jintyhoi th1a13:31
th1aHi jinty.13:32
th1aAre you back home?13:32
jintyyep, got back yesterday13:32
jintynow snowed under with work stuff left undone13:33
srichterth1a: hi tom, I am going to do my morning boot sequence now then I will be available13:33
th1aOK.  The dev mode stuff looks good.13:34
th1aI like the drop down menu.13:34
jintyth1a: the debian directory, I would prefer to move it over to the zope-pkg-developers repository where other debian developers can get at it. I would then prefer to remove the one at source.schooltool.org13:35
jintybut wanted to sound you out first13:36
th1aOffhand, that sounds reasonable.13:36
th1aWhere is the zope-pkg-developers repository?13:37
* jinty is finding the url13:38
jintyhere is an overview:
jintythe basic idea is to maintain the zope related .deb packages in debian/ubuntu/... as a group rather than as individuals13:41
th1aIt wouldn't be hard to un-do this at some future point, if there was a good reason?13:42
jintyit wouldn't be hard to un-delete the debian directory13:43
jintybut future development on the packaging will not be under the schooltool contributers agreement13:44
jintyif that matters13:44
th1aI don't think it does if we're not paying you.13:48
jintythe advantages of a volunteer;)13:49
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jintyhoi srichter: thanks for getting 3.1 more out the door!!13:56
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th1asrichter:  ayt?14:18
srichterth1a: now I am14:23
srichterjinty: you are welcome14:24
srichterI think I will do 3.1c2 this weekend14:24
jintysrichter: great! Could look and tell me if this is a schoolbell, zpkgtools or zope bug?
srichterjinty: this would take me a while to check out14:33
srichterthe SETUP.cfg makes no sense to me14:34
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4566:14:34
povbot/svn/commits: Remove the Zope 3 external. (Im on a branch)14:34
srichterI need to see why and how the release works14:35
jintyseemed strange to me that the installation from the tarball is different from the repository14:35
srichterahh, now I see14:35
srichterit all makes sense14:35
* jinty chews his fingers in anticipation.14:36
jintys/fingers/finger nails/14:36
srichterschooltool's reliance on is wrong14:36
srichterfor the SVN checkout it should use Zope3/securitypolicy.zcml and for the release etc/securitypolicy.zcml14:37
srichterI think this is a clear case why it sucks so much that the site.zcml is a Python string in ST/SB14:38
jintygets interesting for the standalone server14:38
jintyprehaps it could be broken out into /etc/schooltool/site.zcml...14:39
jintybut I'll just include securitypolicy in the nasty string for now to get things to work.14:40
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4567:14:46
povbot/svn/commits: Assume zope is on the pythonpath.14:46
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srichtergintas: hi15:00
srichtergintas: I think we do not need to document the "dynamic" traversers, since they are always container item lookups15:01
srichterthere is no special traverser registered for it anyways.15:01
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srichterthe only non-container dynamic traverser I see is LinkTracerser, but it also does some sort of mapping lookup, so no big deal15:03
srichterI'll call static traversers simple name traversers15:04
gintassrichter, yep, makes sense15:04
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th1agintas:  So we are requiring Python 2.4 in the release candidates?15:16
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4568:15:17
povbot/svn/commits: Added some documentation strings/15:17
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4569:15:18
povbot/svn/commits: Remove zope3 from the tarball.15:18
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4570:15:19
povbot/svn/commits: Remove Profiler as an option, since it will not be implemented. It was suggested on IRC, but Tom and I just decided that we do not need it (at least for now).15:19
gintasth1a, the .deb packages depend of python 2.415:34
gintaspython2.3 on windows is supported though15:34
gintasif one really wants python2.3 on Debian, they can at the moment use the source15:35
gintasI'll want to talk this over with Brian15:35
gintasour deb package naming policy is not well suited either for supporting two versions15:37
gintaswe should have python2.3-schoolbell and python2.4-schoolbell instead of libschoolbell if we want to support both python versions15:37
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4571:15:38
povbot/svn/commits: Include in site definition, partial fix for
gintasjinty, are you there?15:38
jintygintas: I was planning a big overhall along with the zope3-lib stuff15:38
jintyhi, was just having a look at the work you've done15:38
* jinty had to look for the debian dir15:39
gintasI split Debian packaging off into a separate directory15:39
jintybut thanks, you fixed a lot of things I was letting lapse...15:39
gintasit was so much more work than I had expected ;) I'm really glad that you usually take care of this15:41
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4572:15:41
povbot/svn/commits: IHTTPRequest is not defined in zope.publisher.interfaces.browser but .http15:41
jintyI see, I was speaking with th1a about moving ot to the pkg-zope-developers archive here:
th1agintas:  Do you think the error Philipp reported to the mailing list came from Python version issues?15:41
gintasth1a, which error would that be?15:41
jintygintas: I know, the testing cycles get long and there are so many little things to get right.15:42
th1aAh... here's the title of the email: no luck with SchoolTool 0.11rc2 [WAS: Re: [schooltool] SchoolTool 0.11rc2 and SchoolBell 1.2rc2 Available]15:42
th1aOh, whoops.15:42
th1aFor some reason he just sent it to mgedmin and I.15:43
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th1aKinda annoying...15:43
th1aI'll forward it.15:43
gintashmm, he doesn't trust me ;)15:43
th1aHe trusts me too much.15:43
gintasif it's a serious problem, I'll try to get rc3 out today15:44
th1aI just sent it to schooltool-dev.15:44
th1aI'm not sure how serious it is.15:44
gintashe has Zope 3 in his python2.3 site packages15:45
gintasI wonder why that takes precedence over the local SchoolTool's Zope315:45
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th1aHm... That's jinty's bug.15:45
th1aI mean, that he reported.15:45
th1aNot that he caused.15:46
gintasnot exactly15:46
gintasjinty deleted the local zope 3 checkout, that's why the external one was being used15:47
srichtermaybe the path is not setup correctly15:47
srichterdon't append schoolbell's path but insert it at pos 015:47
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gintassrichter, where is the path being appended to?15:49
gintasPhilipp didn't even say if he used Debian packages or the tarballs15:51
gintass/the //15:51
gintasok, it's probably not Debian packages15:52
srichtergintas: I dunno where it is done, but it must be somewhere15:52
gintassrichter, I grepped, and could not find anything15:53
gintascould it be that Philipp tried to remove the local Zope 3 version?15:53
bskahanuntarring the rc2 tarballs gives me an error here15:53
srichterno, it's done correctly15:53
srichtersee schoolbell-server.py15:53
gintassrichter, I did, it uses an 'insert'15:53
bskahanunexpected EOF error on gunzip and tar15:53
gintasbskahan, which file?15:53
srichterright, and it palces it at position 0, which is right15:54
bskahangzip: stdin: unexpected end of file15:54
gintasI mean, which tarball15:54
bskahantar: Unexpected EOF in archive15:54
bskahantar: Unexpected EOF in archive15:54
bskahantar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now15:54
jintycheck md5sums?15:54
bskahangintas: ignore me15:54
bskahanmy connetion choked in mid download15:54
bskahanlet me try again15:54
gintashmm, I forgot to upload md5sums15:55
bskahannow that I have the whole package so to speak, it works fine15:56
bskahansorry about that, someday my connection will stay up for more than 5 minutes at a time15:56
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srichterbskahan: are you on encrypted wireless?16:08
bskahansrichter: yes, why?16:08
srichterI have noticed on my computer since I encrypted my wireless I am getting disconnected16:09
srichterbut only when I am idle for a few minutes16:09
th1aThe sitewide calendar seems to behave weirdly.16:09
srichterthis did not happen with non-encrypted wireless16:09
th1aAlthough the main issue is that it should be accessible to unauthenticated users by default.16:09
gintasjinty, what do you think about Debian packages depending on python2.4?16:10
bskahansrichter: sadly I think its just my new connection, I've had WEP turned on for the last year without the sort of issues I'm having now16:10
srichterI see16:10
jintygintas:now that sarge is out the way and 2.4 is in unstable, I have no issues.16:11
gintasjinty, python2.4 is in Sarge too16:11
jintygintas: don't we also have a dependency on libxml2?16:12
gintaswe do16:12
jintyI couldn't find a python2.4-libxml2 package in sarge16:13
gintasthat could be a problem16:13
gintasbut it seems to be there16:14
gintasI just checked16:14
jintydebian should be doing it's python2.3->2.4 transition shortly16:14
jintywow, cool16:14
gintasso, basically these .debs should run smoothly on sarge16:15
gintasyou also mentioned skolelinux16:15
jintyperhaps I should recant that mail...16:15
jintythey will base off sarge16:16
gintasso the dependency on python2.4 should not be a problem for them either, right?16:16
* jinty looks for python2.4-xml, python2.4-reportlab in sarge16:18
jintycool all there16:19
jintygintas: the future of the debian packages very much depends on how zope3-libs end up. So mostly I leave things as they are until then.16:25
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4573:16:26
povbot/svn/commits: Include in site definition, partial fix for
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4574:16:29
povbot/svn/commits: Pull 4571 into my branch.16:29
gintasby the way, jinty, I recently found out that I will be away on August 11th-15th16:30
gintascould you take on the release manager's tasks during that time?16:32
gintasmost of the hard problems should be fixed by that time, I suppose16:33
gintasperhaps some fixes might need to be backported, but it shouldn't amount to much work16:33
jintyyep, should be ok. Let me know if there is anything I can do before as well...16:35
jintyhmm if pov is paid for this, perhaps I can become a subcontractor...16:36
jintyth1a: poke16:37
* jinty thinks about asking pov if he can subcontract the release management work;)16:41
th1aWell... we should work something out eventually.  But today is a bad day to start thinking about it.16:42
* jinty misses being able to smile jokingly over irc16:44
* th1a doesn't want to talk about money today.16:44
algaheh, we haven't had any subcontractors yet16:44
* th1a is an Indian subcontractor.16:45
th1aTom doesn't really do anything.16:46
th1aJust sends me 20% of his take.16:46
th1aAnyway... I'm wondering if we should create a special permission for the site-wide calendar.16:47
algaI insist that sitewide calendar is meant to be public16:48
th1aBecause it isn't much use if unauthorized users can't see it.16:48
algawe have plenty of means to create partially-accessable calendars16:48
algaso, it should be zope.Public16:48
algaOTOH, we might bump into some data protection issues in some jurisdictions16:49
th1aI'm just worried that we'll end up having people set "View" permission on their root, which will be inherited in undesirable ways.16:49
th1aThe whole idea of shared calendaring bumps against data protection issues in some jursidictions.16:49
bskahanisn't the content that might go into the calendar what is legally restricted16:52
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4575:16:52
povbot/svn/commits: Dont build Zope3 in the makefile.16:52
bskahanso we're putting the onus of data protection on the person in charge of that calendar16:52
bskahansimilar to the printed school calendar16:53
bskahanI haven't been able to prove it due to various issues, but I think the site calendar may be visible to unauthenticated visitors if your running schooltool inside zope3 rather than standalone16:54
th1aalga and I just discussed this face to face.16:57
th1aFor this release, we just need to make sure we have the defaults right.16:57
* bskahan nods16:58
bskahanworking on it now16:58
algaactually it would be nice to have the security policy pluggable16:58
algaso that switching the default to a paranoid one would be a configuration issue16:58
th1a'View' and 'View calendar' should be accessible to unauthenticated users, but we need to disallow those permissions where we don't want them to be inherited.16:58
th1aThat is, 'View' and 'View calendar' for top.16:59
th1aShould be allowed.16:59
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4576:17:03
povbot/svn/commits: Include securitypolicy.zcml in ftesting.zcml.17:03
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bskahanalga: is there a reason it's better to use an event subscriber for setting the permission on the SchoolToolApplication object rather than doing it during __init__()?17:30
algapermissions on what?17:32
algaI remembered17:33
algaif you set permissions in __init__()17:33
algayou need to set up permissions machinery in all unit tests that try to instantiate SchoolToolApplication()17:33
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th1aOK.  I'm outta here.17:38
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povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4577:18:09
povbot/svn/commits: port 4576 to my branch.18:09
povbot/svn/commits: * jinty committed revision 4578:18:09
povbot/svn/commits: port 4576 to schooltool18:09
srichtergintas: the DELETE view configurations for the containers also seemed superfluous18:19
srichterI am surprised they did not cause the system to fail18:19
srichterbut I finally understand how everything works18:26
srichterthough GET seems to be special18:29
srichterah, no, the HTTPPublication is specific to pure HTTP calls18:31
srichterI see, very clever18:31
srichterDELETE, PUT, and OPTION is provided for all interfaces18:32
srichterbut GET and POST have to be implemented separately18:33
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4579:18:55
povbot/svn/commits: Set view and viewCalendar permissions on SchooltoolApplication.  Explicitly deny view and viewCalendar on persons, groups, sections, and courses containers.  Intentionally leaving out levels because this fix needs to be ported to the 0.11 branch.18:55
povbot/svn/commits: should fix issue32518:55
srichterwow, documenting the REST API is really tough18:57
srichterthere's definitely a bit of magic going on (though I can see through the trick)18:57
algaI had an impression that we're the only ones using plain zope.publisher.http views19:50
algathy're quite unwieldy and dusty19:51
srichteralga: probably, why do you find them unwieldly and dusty?19:55
algaI don't remember the particular details, but I had that feeling when approaching RESTive views for the first time20:12
algae.g., HEAD is not implemented20:12
algasorry, I have to run20:12
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ignassrichter, well - marius did a lot of magic to make "Method not implemented" work20:16
ignasand a lot of RESTive interface code is mine so the architecture might look err ... duno ... strange ;)20:17
ignasi wanted to keep code duplication as low as i can20:17
srichterright, that's a noble goal20:17
srichteractually it is not that bad20:17
srichterI probably have to create an interface for traversers, so th edocs can be better20:18
srichterI need to be able to know to what object a name gets traversed to20:18
srichter(if possible)20:18
srichterthe difficulty of documenting comes mainly from
srichterthe problem is that the PUT and DELETE depend on the parent of the traversed object20:20
srichterso I have to figure out what parents are possible and then look up the view20:21
ignasand how you solved "PersonHTTPTraverser"20:21
srichteris that a question?20:22
ignasbecause that one looks kind of difficult for automatic traversing :/20:23
srichterby implementing a new interface that allows us to discover the traversable names20:23
srichtersomething like INameTraverser or so20:24
srichterwe can use that later for the actual implementation too20:24
srichterit could be as easy as specifying a mapping from 'name' to factory20:25
srichterignas: did you know that Zope PUT supports extension recognition for creating files?21:27
srichterbecause I think it might make you calendar ICS and VFB import/export easier.21:27
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eldaranyone here?21:30
eldari got a quick question21:30
ignasgive it to me :)21:52
ignassrichter, still there ?21:53
ignasa sec22:04
ignasis it worth proposing something like the patch i have posted in Zope mailing list ?22:11
ignasjust thought i'd ask because you are working with the code around the places at the moment ...22:12
srichterstill reading22:17
srichterwhat does it releate to?22:17
ignaswell you mentioned "extension recognition"22:18
ignasand that reminded me the issue of having no way to access "charset" while processing posted/put data22:18
ignasbecause you can't register a factory that takes whole request ...22:19
ignasso why not first try geting a more specific factory (if possible) and fall back to the old mode of operation (to support old style FileFactories)22:19
ignasregistering file factory for an Object + Request instead of just plain object ...22:20
ignassorry if that's too OT at the moment22:20
srichterok, I think the file factory and write file adapter shoud grow methods to deal with the encoding22:20
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ignasi can keep it in stack for a bit longer if you have no time ...22:20
srichteractually I would be okay, if they become views22:21
srichterthough you have to provide BBB22:21
srichterI have no time right now to look at this22:21
srichterbut put it in the Z3 collector22:22
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