IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2005-07-27

th1aThe point of SchoolBell was to attract some broader interest and developers.00:00
th1aIf it doesn't do that (and I've got to say it really hasn't so far), then it isn't helping us going forward.00:01
srichterI seee00:01
algain EuroPython, several people have asked me whether SchoolBell has email notifications00:04
algaI invited them to go and contribute them :-)00:04
srichterLOL :-)00:05
srichterI bet you never heard of them again00:06
th1aYeah... we didn't quite have time to squeeze them in, but it is really a pretty low hanging fruit.00:07
th1aIf nobody has stepped forward to do that, it is a sign that this isn't taking off.00:09
srichterI think there are too many calendaring solutions out there00:11
algawell, there are ~11 people subscribed for schoolbell in freshmeat00:11
srichterI think with schooltool it will be different, once a critical mass is there00:11
algaover 3000 record hits and over 1500 url hits00:12
srichtersicne I do not know freshmeat stats that much, is that a lot?00:12
th1aA lot happened in the calendaring space between the conception of SchoolBell and when it was released.00:12
th1aThere were fewer options a year ago.00:13
povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4378:00:32
povbot/svn/commits: Now the historical record also keep track of the user id.00:32
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pcardune_is there a way to overide previous zcml directives?00:42
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povbot/svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 4379:01:02
povbot/svn/commits: Fixed really horrible traverser code and wrote a test for it.01:02
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srichteryes, see overrides.zcml in Zope302:07
srichterdunno whether something liek that is setup in ST02:07
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povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4380:10:18
povbot/svn/commits: fetch batch_size/batch_start from request if available.10:18
povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4381:10:20
povbot/svn/commits: Batching for group members view.10:20
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povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4382:11:37
povbot/svn/commits: Batching for schoolbell containers.11:37
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povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4383:12:20
povbot/svn/commits: Batcing for schooltool containers12:20
povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4384:12:45
povbot/svn/commits: Whitespace and i18n12:45
povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4385:13:36
povbot/svn/commits: i18n13:36
povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4386:13:37
povbot/svn/commits: Improve the search test.13:37
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povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4387:15:48
povbot/svn/commits: Slight tweaks to traceback 'pre'.15:48
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mgedmingintas just showed me the person index with 1000 persons16:06
mgedmin100 links to page numbers at the top does not look very good16:06
mgedminnow imagine 35000 users...16:06
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tvonyeah, I'm aware of the issue but havent thought of a nice solution16:10
tvonbasically we ned to show the previous x and next x links16:11
tvoneg 'previous   ... 34 35 36 37 38 39 ...   next'16:11
erchachemgedmin: i send my public key now to your mailbox16:13
mgedmintvon, there's a bug with batching and sorting16:15
mgedminyou sort just the batch, not the whole list16:16
tvonthats not so good16:16
mgedminso the user may see A..Z on one page, then go back to A on the next16:16
mgedminyou won't usually see this because the container is a BTree16:16
mgedminand it lists objects sorted by __name__16:16
mgedminand __name__ is derived from title by default16:16
mgedminhowever if you change a person's title, you will see the incorrect order16:17
mgedmin742 unread checkins in the mail16:31
mgedmin742 unread checkins in the mail16:31
mgedmintake one down, review it around16:32
mgedmin741 unread checkins in the mail16:32
* mgedmin sighs16:32
th1asrichter:  Are the mechanize ftests in your subversion branch?  I can't find them.17:10
srichterth1a: see above17:12
th1aAha.  Apparently I've gone blind.  Sorry.17:13
srichterBenji and I are cleaning up the the mechtest (now called testbrowser) package right now17:14
mgedminerchache, what you sent me was not a SSH public key17:17
mgedminI don't know what it was17:17
mgedminsome sort of PKCS certificate perhaps17:17
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erchacheis a x.509 no?17:38
erchacheis ssl certificate for web and mail applications17:38
erchachei can create my own with mac os x17:39
erchacheis this enough?17:39
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mgedminerchache, no, I need an SSH public key17:44
mgedmin$ ssh-keygen -t rsa17:44
erchacheok ok17:44
mgedminthen mail me ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub17:44
erchachewait im working on other things17:45
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erchachemgedmin: see mail again18:07
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mgedminerchache, you should now be able to get a writeable checkout18:14
mgedminsvn co svn+ssh://
erchachehehehehe i need to install svn for mac os x18:34
erchachepufffff installing subversion via dports......tooooooo slooooooowwwww18:53
* mgedmin googles18:54
srichterResource for MAc OS X: th1a18:56
th1aI can never remember which method I used.18:57
AisteI used darwin ports -- no problem18:58
erchachearrrrgghhh compiling apache....db4.....all necesary packages.....shit18:59
mgedminerchache, you do not need apache for the SVN client19:00
mgedmin(although you might need some libnspr library that is part of apache, I'm not sure about that)19:00
mgedminno, libnspr is a netscape thing, I meant libaprutil or libneon... waaah, whatever19:01
erchachei know :(19:02
th1asrichter:  testbrowser requiring Python 2.4 might be a bit of an issue.19:04
srichterth1a: really? Even for the next ST release?19:04
srichterbeginning on Friday we will require 2.4 on Zope 3 trunk anyways19:05
srichter(however, I could backport the code, if necessary)19:05
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th1aWell, there always seem to be packaging related issues that I never think of.19:05
srichterI see19:06
th1aSeems like the kind of thing jinty will complain about.19:06
srichterwe'll ask jinty when he comes back19:06
mgedminpreviously we explicitly supported python 2.319:06
th1aNo need to panic yet.19:06
srichterYou probably want to switch to the Zope 3.1 brnach on Friday19:07
srichterit will support 2.319:07
mgedminthe plan was to track zope 3 trunk until 3.1 was released, then stick to 3.119:07
mgedminit may be flawed if we start using mechtest and it does not get into 3.1...19:08
th1aThat's true, mgedmin.19:08
srichterin that case I'll backport it for 3.119:08
th1aI think it would be worth it.19:08
srichterI think mechtest easily cut my ftest development time into half, if not a third19:09
th1aAnd it is so readable.19:09
th1aI just sent an email to the schoolforge-uk mailing list extolling the virtues of DocTests.19:10
srichterextolling? (my dictionary does not have this verb)19:11
th1aYou know what would be cool:  a plugin for Dia that let you make wireframes that would be converted to a mechtest document.19:11
srichterDia is GNome's Powerpoint, right?19:12
srichterand what is a wireframe?19:12
th1asrichter:  Mine says "praise enthusiastically."19:12
th1aDia is the free Visio.19:12
th1aDIagrams.  UML, etc.19:12
srichterahh, ok19:12
srichteryeah, I use a different set of tools19:13
th1aWIreframe is sort of a sketch of the web ui elements and flow.19:13
th1aSo do I ;-)19:13
srichterah, ok19:13
th1aI'm just being politically correct by referring to the free tool.19:13
th1aI use and love OmniGraffle.19:13
th1aA piece of software worth giving up your freedom for ;-)19:14
srichter(I use all free tools, but they are either KDE apps or OpenOffice ;-)19:14
srichterdoes it run on Linux?19:14
th1aNo.  Mac only.19:14
th1aThe shop that makes it are actually old NeXT developers, so they know how MacOS X is supposed to work.19:15
Aisteyeah, i just made a huuuge document with omniGraffle19:15
th1aI've made presentations with it.19:15
srichtersounds cool19:16
srichterdoesn't the UML standard have something to say about testing plans?19:16
srichterwe might be able to use that19:16
srichterI think it would be really nice, if we could have recording sessions for mechtests19:18
th1aI'm thinking about something that would allow a web developer to generate a functional test.19:18
th1aJust brainstorming.19:18
srichterI think if we could develop a Mozilla plugin for recording and managing mechtests than that would be awesome19:19
srichterI bet you that you could even do something with DCOP (KDE) to listen to stuff in Konqueror19:20
srichteron the other hand, an enhanced tcpwatch might do as well19:20
srichterso instead of recording a session and then converting it to a test, you do it as you go19:21
th1aI'm thinking of something that would allow you to create the test before you implement it.19:21
th1aImplement the code.19:22
srichterI know there are standards that deal with test plans19:22
srichterwe could use that for automation19:22
srichterbut I have never looked into this at all19:22
srichterth1a: maybe mechtests are already the format you are looking for and we just need a UI for them19:34
th1aYeah, that's what I mean.  A UI for creating mechtests.19:34
srichterI wonder whether someone could misappropriate JaWE :-)19:36
erchachedownloading svn content :P19:51
erchacheth1a: do you use your mac to develop schooltool software?19:51
th1aI haven't been doing much development, but yes.19:52
th1aI use BBEdit as an editor, but I'm not sure it is worth the cost.19:52
* mgedmin swears by gvim19:53
erchachei use wrangler19:53
erchachever simple and free19:53
th1aI've been using vi for six years or so and I haven't managed to learn anything beyond ':wq' 'i', 'x', and 'a'19:53
th1aAmazing what you can get done with those in a pinch, however.19:53
th1aOh, and '/'19:54
erchacheim too19:54
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erchachewell i left home....i finish on my job....19:57
erchachea productive day!19:57
erchachecool beer to celebrate it!19:57
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srichterth1a: I thought about it a little bit, and a I think a Web GUI to generate mechtests should not be too hard20:07
srichterand if you write it in Zope you can even reuse the interfaces I wrote for testbrowser (mechtest)20:08
mgedminwhat's testbrowser?20:12
srichterthe new name for mechtest20:12
srichterit will live in
mgedminI was dreaming the other day about a web GUI for debugging functional tests20:13
mgedminyou upload your .txt file20:13
mgedminyou see a web page with your restructured text rendered into html20:14
mgedminand your embedded >>> http() snippets collapsed by default20:14
mgedminplus a cursor on the left side20:14
mgedminand you can skip or run those requests on live data.fs20:14
srichterI was thinking more visual20:15
srichterthat your txt file is parsed into command objects20:15
srichterin testbrowser terms:20:15
srichter1. Open a new URL20:15
srichter2. Enter vlaues into Form X20:16
srichter3. Submit using button "Apply"20:16
srichterth1a: is that what you were thinking too?20:16
srichteryou can then annotate each action with some ReST20:16
th1aBack from lunch...20:43
th1aI think we're on the same page in general.20:44
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th1asrichter:  I have a question.21:00
th1aI'm setting up a schema based add view for a content type I created,21:02
th1abut I didn't create a factory for the content.21:03
th1aDo I need to?21:03
th1aI think the answer is no, I  can just enter the path to the class.21:04
th1a...I'll try that.21:04
th1aNever mind.21:04
th1aThat sounds right then?21:04
srichteryeah, you don't need a factory21:05
srichterthe addform will do the right thing21:05
srichteryou specify the content type there anyways21:05
srichterI mean you specify the class21:05
th1aThis little game seems to finally have given me the right hook to get deeper into Zope 3.21:06
th1aAfter many false starts.21:06
srichterwell, you need a project21:07
srichterthat is always true21:07
th1aThe problem has also been that I have no interest in writing calendaring code.21:07
th1aOr aptitude, for that matter.21:07
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th1aAiste:  Eek!  Jennifer just pointed out that I set up our meeting on her birthday (Aug. 9).21:22
th1aClearly I need to keep a more complete calendar.21:23
Aistewe can push it to 10-1121:23
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th1aOur guidebook calls the mayor of Vilnius "wacky."21:58
th1aAs of 2003.21:58
srichterhi hi21:59
srichterthat's hilarious22:00
th1aIt doesn't look like his office webcam is up anymore.22:03
mgedminhave you heard the story of 500 yellow bikes?22:06
th1aJennifer just read it to me.22:06
th1aWe tried one of those in Helsinki (well, the green Helsinki version).22:07
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srichteryeah, those guidebooks are pretty good22:11
th1aLonely Planet.22:13
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th1asrichter:  I've got a custom container, which holds a BTreeContainer, then another custom container.22:51
th1aDo I need to declare the permissions for the BTreeContainer in browser/configure.zcml?22:52
srichterto make security declarations simpler, only have custom BTreeContainer derived containers22:52
th1aI guess.22:54
th1aDoesn't seem that simple, actually.22:54
th1aNew class, new interface...22:54
srichterno, only new class22:54
srichterbut what it gets you is unique security for this container22:55
th1aSo just:22:55
srichterif you make security assertions on BTreeContainer, then all BTreeContainer instances will use those22:55
th1aDoes this need to implement an interface?22:56
srichterbut it will be better if you have one22:57
srichterthen you can register views on the interface instead the class22:57
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th1asrichter:  So if I create a new interface (ICompass) to contain ICompassPoints, do I need to do ICompassPointContained as well, or is that overkill?23:21
srichterit's better for consistency23:22
th1aNot good for verbosity ;-)23:23
srichterright, it's due to this dumb recusive problem23:23
srichteryou want to say ContainerX can contain ItemX but also ItemX can be contained by ContainerX23:23
srichterone you have to define first23:23
th1aI suppose the way I'm doing this maximizes the feeling of boilerplate.  I created a bunch of objects that don't do anything at all yet other than sit inside each other in a fairly complicated way.23:49
srichterits better if you do one thing at a time23:50
th1aYou can tell Zope 3 is written by programmers who'd rather write Python boilerplate than HTML boilerplate.23:50
srichterhe he, how?23:51
th1aJust because it seems like a lot of work until I remember that I haven't written a single page template yet.23:52
th1aWhich I get sick of.23:53
th1aWhich I got so sick of I spent months trying to learn XUL and then wxPython.23:53
th1aWhich convinced me that ZPT, XHTML & CSS aren't so bad after all.23:54
srichterah, I see23:54
srichterXUL and XBL just sucks23:54
th1aIt is bizarro world.23:54
srichterI think if you use the component architecture with wxPython or any other GUI framework, it could be cool23:54
th1aUntil you try to figure out why your wxPython interface doesn't work on MacOS X, then you have to kill yourself.23:56
srichterwell, I think those issues could be better overcome with the CA23:57
srichterso that woul dprobably be a reason to use Qt23:57
srichterI have heard good things about its compatibility to other OSs23:57
srichterI am just too lazy to learn them, because Web UIs are much faster to develop23:58

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