IRC log of #schooltool for Thursday, 2005-06-23

*** _jeremy has quit IRC00:16
*** th1a_ has joined #schooltool01:11
*** biffhero has joined #schooltool01:18
biffheroI am having a difficult time with the script01:19
*** th1a has quit IRC01:19
biffheroAttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'SUNDAY'01:21
biffherothat's the last line of the error message, it is 11 lines long.  I don't know where you all want pastes to go.01:22
biffheroI have tried the run-import that is in the 1.0 and the 1.1 scripts/ directory01:29
*** pcardune has joined #schooltool03:09
*** pcardune has quit IRC03:11
*** osuchw has joined #schooltool06:11
povbot/svn/commits: * tvon committed revision 4127:06:34
povbot/svn/commits: UI hints for private vs public notes.  Currently the only thing that really tells you that a note is private is the (p) in the title... this is less than ideal.  Once someone knows that red == private everything will be fine, but it's not as clear as it could be that the (p) means 'private' (it could just as easily mean 'public'). I tried creating a little lock icon but it06:34
povbot/svn/commits: didn't turn out so well.06:34
th1a_biffhero:  Can you make a bug report at http://issues.schooltool.org06:38
*** th1a_ is now known as th1a06:38
*** tvon has joined #schooltool06:39
*** osuchw has quit IRC06:44
*** thisfred has joined #schooltool10:35
*** manini has joined #schooltool10:40
*** ignas_ has joined #schooltool12:08
*** pcardune has joined #schooltool12:10
pcardunehelo, I'm trying to look at school tool but get an error in "make test" in the Zope3 folder: undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_AsEncodedString12:14
pcarduneI did this just yesterday on another computer and everything worked wonderfully12:15
ignas_didn't it say anything more ?12:20
pcardunea lot more...12:21
pcardune  File "/home/pcardune/schooltoolBAD/Zope3/", line 530, in visit12:21
pcardune  File "/home/pcardune/schooltool/Zope3/src/bugtracker/", line 18, in ?12:21
pcardune  File "Zope3/src/zope/i18n/", line 20, in ?12:21
pcardune  File "Zope3/src/zope/component/", line 23, in ?12:21
pcardune  File "Zope3/src/zope/component/", line 19, in ?12:21
pcardune  File "Zope3/src/zope/exceptions/", line 29, in ?12:21
pcardune  File "Zope3/src/zope/security/", line 22, in ?12:21
pcardune  File "Zope3/src/zope/proxy/", line 21, in ?12:21
pcarduneImportError: /home/pcardune/schooltoolBAD/Zope3/src/zope/proxy/ undefined symbol: PyUnicodeUCS4_AsEncodedString12:21
pcarduneand there is more where that came from12:21
ignas_seems like zope failed to build properly :/12:22
ignas_not sure though12:22
ignas_have you tried running "make test" ins schooltool folder not in Zope3 folder ?12:22
pcardunesomeone else had a similar problem expressed on this channel as I can see from the logs:
pcarduneno, I haven't built it yet12:23
ignas_you haven't build what yet ?12:24
ignas_schooltool or Zope ?12:24
pcardunenvm... disregard that statement12:24
pcarduneI first built zope, seemed to work, didn't bother running the test, tried to then build schooltool, but I get that same error message12:25
ignas_you are using a tarball release ?12:25
pcardunesvn checkout12:26
ignas_so you do svn checkout12:26
ignas_then you go into Zope3 dir12:26
ignas_and type make12:26
ignas_then go up one dir12:26
ignas_and type  make test12:26
pcardunewell, make test in either directory yields the same thihng12:26
pcarduneI assume someone messed up checking in something into Zope's repository, so in the hope that they have fixed it since last night, i am doing another checkout12:27
ignas_could you type exact commend you are using to checkout schooltool from the repository ?12:28
ignas_typo day :/12:29
pcardunesvn co
ignas_thanks i'll try reproducing the problem12:33
ignas_could you do a make clean in Zope3 dir and then "make"12:34
pcardunein progress12:35
ignas_maybe make is not completing cleanly ? :/12:35
ignas_an old one but might help you12:36
ignas_what OS/distribution are you using ?12:37
pcardunefedora core 312:42
pcardunewith python2.412:46
ignas_whad does this print in your python ?12:47
ignas_import sys;sys.maxunicode12:47
ignas_oh, so i guess python2.4 on fedora core is not compatible with Zope312:48
ignas_is there a Zope3 package on fedora core 3 ?12:49
pcardunei dont think so12:49
ignas_i'd suggest you compiling your own python2.4 and passing --enable-unicode=ucs4 to configure12:50
ignas_or else - well schooltool depends on Zope3 and Zope3 will not work on python you have :/12:51
ignas_not sure though, some guesswork is involved ...12:51
pcarduneok, thanks12:51
pcardunei may just install python 2.3 then as well12:51
ignas_not sure 2.3 will be compiled with different options though ... haven't ever used an rpm based distribution12:53
pcardunei used python 2.3 yesterday on another fc machine to compile schooltool, and that worked fine12:54
pcardunei'll try a few things12:54
*** admp_ has joined #schooltool13:17
*** manini has quit IRC13:39
*** pcardune_ has joined #schooltool13:46
*** pcardune has quit IRC13:54
*** bskahan has joined #schooltool14:03
pcardune_I finally got schooltool to compile, looks very cool, anyways, are there any UML diagrams available to give me an all at one view of how things are structured?14:29
ignas_afraid not14:32
ignas_you should look at the interfaces.py14:32
pcardune_i am, but theres a lot to look at14:32
ignas_well - we haven't produced any uml's ...14:33
pcardune_It seems that most of the functionality is in schoolbell14:33
pcardune_but that is just the calendering stuff right?14:33
bskahanpcardune_: schoolbell doesn't include timetables, terms, courses, sections, and school schedules14:34
bskahanthat stuff is in schooltool14:35
pcardune_ok, that makes sense.  I hope you don't mind me asking lots of basic questions14:35
bskahannot at all14:36
*** tvon has quit IRC14:37
*** pcardune_ has left #schooltool14:42
*** tvon has joined #schooltool14:50
*** eldar has joined #schooltool15:29
bskahaneldar: hello15:29
eldari am one of the student developers working on cando with zope 315:30
eldari will be asking you a lot of questions in the future15:30
bskahannice to meet you15:30
bskahanhow many students are working on it?15:30
bskahanyou, dwoo, and ?15:31
eldarumm around 615:31
eldarnot sure, let me ask jeff15:31
bskahanah, more than I realized15:31
eldari may be wrong though, i live in a different county so i haven't met all of them15:31
* bskahan nods15:32
eldaralrighty, to start it up can you explain if there is any other reason for having namespace separation15:32
eldarlike @@ for view, besides the organization15:33
eldarand neatness15:33
bskahannot sure what you mean15:35
ignas_eldar, well - it is advised so you could have a student with id "events.html"15:36
ignas_or else someone mallicious might create a record that would kind of make the view unaccessable15:37
eldari just found out that right there are only 2, me and and paul15:46
* bskahan nods15:47
srichtereldar: you should ask zope3-sepcific questions on #zope3-dev15:55
srichtereldar: first rule of thumb: namespaces are good, we should do more of them! :-)15:55
srichtereldar: imagine you have folder X15:56
srichterand you create a view index.html in the folder; you can access it via X/@@index.html15:56
srichtersince a folder can have objects of any unicode name, one could create a text file called index.html15:57
srichterthe traversal mechanism gives always object lookup precendence over view lookup, so effectively you just disabled the "index.html" view15:57
srichtertraversal namespaces allow us to separate content and view and other lookups15:58
srichterI hope that helps15:58
eldari see, thank you16:01
srichterbtw, this was a big problem in Zope 2 and always got people in trouble16:03
bskahanin zcml, I have:16:27
bskahan    <require permission="schoolbell.view"16:27
bskahan             attributes="title description instructors members16:27
bskahan                         courses label size __cmp__ location" />16:27
bskahanwhere location is a Resource object16:27
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4128:16:30
povbot/svn/commits: added vocabulary for choosing the location of a Section from the available resources.16:30
*** jinty has joined #schooltool16:34
eldarwhat's the latest default username/password?16:55
*** mgedmin has joined #schooltool16:56
eldarnvmd i found it17:02
*** FarcePest has joined #schooltool17:15
*** ignas_ has quit IRC17:17
*** jinty has quit IRC17:19
bskahanmgedmin: would it be reasonable for me to add book/unbook methods for resources to TimetableActivity?17:32
bskahanthey have a resources attribute, but I don't think it would raise a booking conflict warning17:34
eldarthere are many ways to implement competencies and persons with courses17:53
eldarwould a student have the scores for the competency, or would there be many competencies for each student that hold the ratings17:53
eldarwhat would be the best way to go?17:54
bskahanI thought the Courses would hold the competency definitions/requirements and the actual performance on a given competency would be something kept on the Person object17:55
bskahanbut that was just my gut feeling without looking into the requirements too deeply17:56
bskahans/kept on the Person object/associated with the Person object/17:57
eldarhaving competencies in courses would prevent us from customizing the competencies for individuals persons/students17:58
eldaror so jeff suspects17:59
bskahanI was under the impression that a Competency was a dictated standard, not something that you'd modify on a per-student basis17:59
*** jelkner has joined #schooltool18:00
eldarhere you are18:00
eldarbskahan: I was under the impression that a Competency was a dictated standard, not something that you'd modify on a per-student basis18:00
jelkneri have an XP question...18:00
bskahanhi Jeff18:00
jelknerwe have a first customer with very specific requirements (hi brian!)18:01
jelknerbut we have already been thinking about how to make this a more effective tool for teaching18:01
jelknerto use it to enhance learning, rather than *just* fullfilling virginia's idea of how this should work18:02
jelknerif i have a really talented student, for example, as teacher i might want to add compencies only for her.18:02
jelkneror for a more general example: we have a course called advanced topics18:03
jelknerit is pretty much an organized independent study18:03
bskahanI'd do that seperately, e.g, mandated standards on the Course level and special competencies as something different18:03
jelknerso mandated competencies first18:04
jelknersince that is what our customer wants to pay for18:04
bskahanmakes sense18:04
jelknerand if we build in an agile way, changing later won't be a problem, yes?18:04
jelknerthat's what i've heard, i'm real eager to learn from this project how it works in practice18:05
bskahanyou could also do a tiered system with Schoolsystem standards associated with courses, teacher defined class standards associated with sections, and additional goals associated with students/groups18:06
jelknernow you're talking!18:07
jelknerthat sounds like a great idea.  it would permit maximum flexibility, and avoid duplication at the same time18:07
bskahanthat's really the only courses are there for, to be a place to define requirements18:07
bskahanthey don't do much at this point except sit and look pretty18:08
jelknerwell, virginia will insist that there competencies be included with each instance of a course, so that is a natural place for the state mandated list18:08
jelknerteachers wanted to add to their particular sections can do so there18:09
* bskahan nods18:09
jelknerso, how should eldar begin?18:10
jelkneruser story:  I want to be able to add a list of state approved competencies to a course.18:10
bskahanwhat's a competency?18:11
jelknera competency is a "validated task"18:11
jelknerthat's basically it18:11
jelkneri'm not sure where the "rating scale" goes?18:12
eldara student have an id of the competency and its rating?18:12
jelkneroh, and in virginia, competencies are part of competency groups18:13
jelknerbut the groups are nothing more than collections of related competencies18:13
eldarso they could be interpreted as a course?18:13
bskahancan competencies be in more than one group or more than one course?18:13
jelknerin virginia no, but most of the other potential customers with whom we've spoke would want that flexibility18:14
th1aHi all.18:14
jelknerhi tom18:15
jelknerOSHA (The Occupational Safety and Health Administration) is very interested in competency tracking18:15
th1aWhoa, lots to catch up on...18:15
jelknerand the Center for Innovative Communities wants to use this for community based learning18:16
bskahanyou need ICompetency and ICompetencyGroup interfaces, some sort of relationship between ICompetency and ICompetencyGroup (see, a relationship between ICourse and ICompetency/ICompetencyGroups, and a container for ICompetency and ICompentencyGroups18:16
eldarwe're discussing ways to manage competencies, their ratings, and that sort of stuff, tom18:16
eldarok thanks18:18
jelknerok, i have another student with whom i need to talk18:19
jelknersounds like eldar knows what to do to get started18:19
jelknerthla: tom, we are on for 6:30 pm this evening, yes?18:19
jelknereldar will be here all day, and paul carduner will be joining us later18:20
jelknerso this could be a great day to make a lot of progress18:20
eldarhow would be cando be made as an optional part of schooltool because not many people are going to want cando18:22
bskahaneldar: there's no simple way to make cando an optional addition at this point18:24
bskahankeep notes of what needs to change to make that the case ;)18:24
eldarok :D18:25
bskahanafter the next release we're going to work on making that easy, so your experience now will be helpful18:25
th1aeldar:  Defining how to make optional/add-on packages for SchoolTool is one of the main tasks for after the next release.18:26
eldari see18:26
th1aYou guys are just a bit ahead of us.18:26
eldarIContainer and IContained are adapters for parent and child objects, right?18:28
*** ignas_ has joined #schooltool18:28
th1ajelkner:  Read this:
th1aI've got a bunch of design documents from the standards based assessment work I did last year.  Now I just need to find them...18:35
bskahanth1a: for the improve schduling UI story18:45
bskahanwe talked about scheduling a person for multiple terms18:45
bskahanbut that's turns out to be backwards18:46
bskahanbecause that form isn't creating a timetable, its just adding a student to the section18:46
bskahanso what I did was make the section scheduling UI work for multiple terms18:46
bskahansame result, just in a different place18:47
th1aThe main use case here is adding a new student after you've set up the rest of the rosters.18:47
bskahannow you can say: History101 meets Tuesday at 9am for the default timetable both in spring and fall18:48
bskahanthen when you add the student to history101, Tuesday 9am will be slotted for that student for the whole year18:48
th1aOK.  So if you add someone to the section via their schedule view, they'll be in there for both sections.18:48
th1aBoth terms.18:49
bskahanone section, both terms18:49
th1aNot both sections.18:49
th1aThat sounds right.18:49
bskahani think having multiple ttschema is going to get very confusing, fast18:49
th1aWe just don't want the student added individually to disappear the end of the first term.18:50
bskahanyeah, that won't happen18:50
bskahanthere's no expiration on the membership18:50
th1aMultiple ttschema are pretty necessary.18:50
th1aCleaning things up at the end of a term is a whole operation.18:50
bskahanso as long as the section has TimetableActions the student will inherit them in their composite timetable until you actively remove the student from the section18:51
bskahanI've finished the resource as locations and no resources in groups stories if you want to take a look at those, adding locations to sections is about 1/2 finished18:52
bskahanthe edit form isn't updated yet to change the location18:53
bskahanI'll be here at 6:30 for jeff's meeting, and I'll be finishing the section locations today/tomorrow18:54
bskahanthen I'll be leaving for NZ on monday18:54
eldarjeff and i are going to lunch18:58
*** eldar is now known as eldar-afk18:58
th1abskahan:  OK.  Thanks for making time this evening.18:59
*** eldar-afk is now known as eldar-away19:00
jelknerbskahan: yeah, brian, thanks a 10**6!  We can really use the help19:01
jelknerok, eldar and i are heading out for lunch19:01
jelknerbb in a bit19:01
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4129:19:09
povbot/svn/commits: wrap the section location display in a condition.19:09
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4130:19:39
povbot/svn/commits: added section edit for with location selection.19:39
*** thisfred has quit IRC19:39
*** bskahan changes topic to "Schooltool 0.10 & Schoolbell 1.1.1 are out! Get them from | IRC logs are at"19:46
*** eldar-away is now known as eldar20:14
th1a => MIT license!20:17
eldara question20:18
eldaroh nvmd, sry :P20:18
*** Aiste has joined #schooltool20:19
bskahanth1a: heh20:20
bskahanI've been looking at prototype quite a bit20:20
tvonth1a: we can include MIT/BSD style license code right?20:21
th1aI think so... we'd want to keep track of it.20:22
bskahani'd like to see prototype packaged for debian on its own20:22
bskahanrather than us having to keep a copy20:23
th1aRight.  We'd need our own copy for all other plaforms anyhow, though.20:23
bskahanguess that's true20:23
bskahanthe prototype lib, compressed for space is probably very small anyway20:24
th1aThe difference between our UI at this point and the UI of other SIS's pretty vast.20:24
bskahanhow so?20:24
th1aWe're much more contemporary.20:24
th1aWAY more contemporary.20:25
bskahanhopefully more user oriented, less system oriented20:25
th1aPowerschool at least has an Aqua skin.20:25
tvonaqua smaqua20:25
th1aMost of the web UI's have been bolted onto aging client/server models.20:25
tvoner, shmaqua20:25
th1aAnyhow, it is a big advantage to us, and one we should extend.20:26
tvonI'm down20:26
th1aOTOH, we need to crank out actual functionality much more quickly in the next six months, so we can't get too fiddly.20:27
th1aMaybe a good js library like prototype would allow us to add some flash without slowing down too much.  I don't really know what using it in practice on SchoolTool would be like.20:28
bskahanthat was my thought process as well20:36
tvonthe only hindrance is making sure it works without it, but that would probably just be a matter of using javascript to setup all the javascript20:37
bskahanI don't think there's that many places where a dynamic UI will really improve the user experience20:37
bskahanI'd like to identify 3 or 4 to focus on20:38
bskahanoverlaying/unoverlaying calendars is my big one20:38
tvonnot that we have searching20:38
bskahanwhen we have searching ...20:38
tvonmaybe I can work that into the large sets work20:38
bskahanat least keep it in mind so its easy to add later20:39
tvonI've been wanting to add simple tooltips for a while20:39
th1aYeah, we don't need it that many places anyhow.20:40
bskahanselecting unselecting calendars in the overlay portlet could be instant apply and just reload the changed set of event blocks20:41
bskahankeeping the page and calendar table 'flicker-free'20:41
th1aYes, those would be nice.20:42
bskahanlists of persons in groups/sections could load an "info div" on the right side of the list with the persons details on hover20:42
bskahanthose are the only 2 spots I've really come up with good uses for dynamic JS trickery20:43
bskahangetting complex with AJAX would mean turning the REST interface on20:44
tvonThats the big problem20:44
bskahanits easy to degrade if JS is off, but detecting access to the XML would be tricky20:45
tvoncan do that in python20:45
bskahanwell, handling all cases, JS on vs. off, XML on vs. off20:45
th1aI don't think having REST on by default is a big deal, if there's a reason to do it.20:47
bskahantvon: its not as simple as turning it on though, right?20:48
tvontvon: what do you mean? I mean that we can exclude ajax code if the rest interface is not enabled20:49
bskahanthere's a security issue that has to be avoided because of the different ports?20:49
tvonoh, yeah20:49
tvonI think I must be wrong about that though, unless signing js scripts is really easy20:49
tvonI'd like to see rest work in Z3 as well20:50
* tvon shrugs20:50
bskahantvon: i think you could push the z3labs folks towards REST, iirc they were talking about a soap interface20:51
tvonoh dear20:51
tvonI have been neglecting gmail, perhaps I should get a voice onthat list20:52
*** eldar has quit IRC20:52
bskahanthat's a good point though, our REST interface is only available in the standalone server20:52
tvonmarius suggested it would be easy to make it work in zope320:53
tvonmgedmin: *poke*20:53
th1aThere's no security issue with the REST interface, other than it shouldn't be on if we're *not using it.*20:54
bskahanth1a: right20:55
bskahanI was talking about browser security checks complaining about JS getting info from a different server or port20:55
*** jelkner has quit IRC21:07
bskahanth1a: have you looked at centre?21:10
th1aThere were some Centre users at NELS.21:10
th1aThat's an example of ugly.21:10
bskahanlots of buttons though21:11
th1aAlso, it is apparently a pretty extreme example of having an open source license, but no open source process whatsoever.21:11
th1aSomeone there had a service contract with the Miller Group (the developers).21:12
th1aThey wanted some modifications, and the MG tech was like, "OK, give me admin access to your server and I'll make the changes."21:12
th1aUhhhhh... No.21:12
*** erchache has joined #schooltool21:13
bskahani like the fact that it handles multiple schools21:13
bskahansomething to think about in the future21:13
*** eldar has joined #schooltool21:23
*** erchache has quit IRC21:29
biffheroth1a, I just filed the bug report.   msg 868 created   issue 294 created21:33
th1abiffhero:  Thanks.21:34
biffherono problem.  should I "reportbug" on Debian as well, since it is on a debian system,   I suppose I could file the bug there, and then point them at issue 294 straight away21:35
th1aAfter an insane amount of sturm und drang, I seem to have found the key diagram of how I designed my standards based assessment system in RDF.21:36
th1aMy desktop install of Ubuntu seems to be finally hosed, however.21:36
th1aBeyond the point where I should just back up and reinstall.21:36
bskahanthat's a wierd error21:39
biffherobskahan, is that for me?  could it be that my VARIABLES in the shell script are messed up?21:48
*** FarcePest has quit IRC21:50
*** Aiste has quit IRC21:50
*** gml has joined #schooltool21:50
bskahanbiffhero: it was sort of randomly directed, but yeah, about your bug21:52
bskahanthat's calling the python calendar module21:52
bskahanI don't think those scripts are valid anymore, but I'm not sure21:53
*** FarcePest has joined #schooltool21:54
bskahanbiffhero: is there an "import calendar" statement earlier in the script?21:54
biffherohere is the only real code in the script, aside from VARIABLES and #comments22:01
biffhero${PYTHON} $NEWDB ${DUMPDIR}/$INFILE ${DUMPDIR}/calendars22:01
*** gml_ has quit IRC22:02
eldarwhat are the uri's in the relationships?22:11
*** ignas_ has quit IRC22:16
bskahaneldar: URIs identify the subject, object, predicate pairs of the relationship22:22
bskahaneach relationship will probably have 3 URI, 1 for each role, and 1 to define the relationship itself22:28
eldarwhere is ICourse implemented into Course?22:36
eldarnvmd, found it22:37
*** Aiste has joined #schooltool22:41
*** bskahan has quit IRC22:50
*** mgedmin has quit IRC22:53
*** bskahan has joined #schooltool22:58
*** tvon has quit IRC23:14
*** pcardune has joined #schooltool23:20
*** bskahan has quit IRC23:25
th1aeldar & pcardune:  Here's a diagram I made up for the assessment system I devised for my former school:
th1abiffhero:  ayt?23:38
pcarduneour assesment system is primarily based on the what the state of virginia has outlined23:39
*** bskahan has joined #schooltool23:43

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!