IRC log of #schooltool for Friday, 2005-06-24

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biffheroth1a: am here now00:34
biffhero1434, PDT00:35
th1abiffhero:  Do you really have much data you need in your old SchoolBell?00:43
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biffherough, really?00:45
biffheroI presume you are saying that we are best off to blow it all away and start from scratch00:46
biffherofrom the calendars directory of the dump....00:47
biffherocat * | wc -l00:47
biffheronot a ton, that's for sure.00:47
th1aUm... yeah, I'm sorta saying that.00:48
biffheroI was thinking of going that direction, since it would get us up right away.  And then putting everyone's data back in by hand (the future recurrings, anyway)00:48
th1aWe have a system for doing the upgrades now.00:48
biffherothat's from 1.x as sources, eh?00:49
th1a0.x to 1.0 was a big architectural shift.00:49
biffherothe export worked fine.  Does the current upgrade game work with .ics data at alL?00:49
th1aYes 1.0 onward will be systematic.00:49
th1aNo export/import needed from now on either.00:50
biffheroI have a user with a bunch of the calendars in their mozilla calendar app, we are trying to print that, so I can re-enter all of the calendar entries00:57
th1aWell, if you have the .ics files, or even just have them in Mozilla calendar you can use those on the new server.00:58
th1aYou shouldn't have to do it manually.00:58
th1aThe problem is with the import script, not with importing, right?00:58 dies, that is correct.  I haven't gone beyond that.00:59
biffheroI have the .ics files for the people definitions, as well.00:59
th1aThe problem is just with the script itself.00:59
biffheroperson.*.ics, group.*.ics, and group.00000?.ics01:00
biffheroyeah, the python import script01:00
th1aAlthough... one thing we keep forgetting to add is a simple form to upload a .ics file directly through the web.01:00
biffheroschoolbell-import.py01:00 is what dies.  how can I import a .ics file?01:01
biffheroI don't know if we can import, I don't know how to do that.01:01
th1aIf I was doing it, I would probably just import them into Mozilla calendar and then sync from there.01:02
biffherook, that sounds good, but of course, it has to be done after I set up the users, or else schoolbell will be receiving data for people it doesn't know about.  Right?01:02
th1aWe just didn't have enough real users of SchoolBell 0.x to spend too much time on these scripts.01:03
biffheroand do you think that there is a way for mozilla to directly import the .ics files?  (I use the web interface soley)01:03
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th1aYou could write a script that would PUT the ics calendars over HTTP.01:04
biffheroit accepts them that way01:05
biffheroit accepts them that way?01:05
th1aThat's all that iCal or Moz Calendar is doing.  Unless maybe they're POST'ed?01:05
th1aI'm a bit annoyed because it seems like the documentation of our web services has disappeared completely.  At least I can't find it.01:11
biffherodoes the new version work with a web interface?01:12
th1aYes, of course.01:12
th1aWe just don't have a form that says "Select an .ics file to upload," which we should.01:12
th1aDid I mention you won't have to do this again ;-)\01:14
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biffherois it possible to create accounts via an .ics file upload?  That's the part I am trying to avoid.  If it is unavoidable, then so be it.  I now have about 80% of the appointment data, and can re-enter that.01:14
th1aYou can create the accounts with a text file.01:15
jelknerok, paul, what is your question about variable naming conventions?01:15
th1aStart up the new server and go to /persons and 'import persons'01:15
jelkneri'm sure they have practices within schooltool that might prove helpful01:15
th1aMust go pick up dinner.01:15
biffherois there a definition of the persons data?01:15
pcardunea non-sequitor:  is ICourseCompetenciesTemplateWriter too long a name for an interface? (this is a somewhat rhetorical question)01:15
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jelknerwe should follow existing conventions whenever possible01:15
th1a|dinnerbiffhero:  yes.01:16
biffheroon that page?01:16
jelknerpcardune: the most important thing is to make the code readable and self documenting01:17
eldaryeah, but we have to be able to write it easily too though01:17
pcardunejelkner: but when do you cross the line between self documenting and cumbersome01:17
jelknerif you use the right tool (george will try to get you all to use emacs, then typing long names is not an issue ;-)01:17
jelknerlet's wait for brian and george to way in on this01:18
pcardunejelkner, it is an issue when you only have 80 characters per line to work with...01:18
eldari don't think we need course in the name01:18
eldarjust competency01:18
eldarby template pauls means a competency groups01:19
eldarno s01:19
pcardunejelkner, I suggest you do a cvs checkout of candotoo from the sourceforge01:19
pcarduneand see what I've done so far01:20
jelkneris this a schooltool integrated  version?01:20
pcardunejelkner, no01:20
pcardunejelkner, this is what i did without an internet connection while on the cruise and in france01:21
jelknerso how do i run it?01:21
jelkneris it zope3?01:22
pcardunejelkner, yes01:22
pcardunejelkner, it works the same way as timeclock did01:22
jelknerok, so i need a zope3 instance to run it01:22
eldarbrian gave a starter suggestion, i forgot to tell01:23
eldarwe should try to integrate what you have so far with his suggestions01:24
eldarhe said: you need ICompetency and ICompetencyGroup interfaces, some sort of relationship between ICompetency and ICompetencyGroup (see, a relationship between ICourse and ICompetency/ICompetencyGroups, and a container for ICompetency and ICompentencyGroups01:25
* eldar doesn't like the font color of his messages01:25
eldarpaul you with me01:26
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jelknerbskahan: hi brian!01:33
bskahanhi all01:33
bskahanhow's it going?01:34
jelknerhave you met paul carduner?01:34
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jelkneraka pcardune01:34
bskahannot really, hey paul01:34
jelknerpaul and eldar wrote the first version of cando01:34
jelknerand will be the ones primarily writing the schooltool version01:34
pcardune___you can thank senegalese power grid for that brief interlude...01:34
jelknerthey had some question about naming conventions for you01:35
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bskahanin general we follow pep 801:36
pcardune___well, actually, I was just wondering what you thought of the naming convention i used for the mini zope3 implementation i have already done01:37
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pcardune___let me see if i can find a link to the interface file...01:37
bskahanhey eldafar01:38
eldafarhi ^^01:38
th1ajelkner:  You're going to be at NECC, right?01:39
jelknerthla: indeed01:40
jelknereldar will be with us01:40
* eldafar is going to be there too01:40
jelknerand he will be working on cando01:41
th1aSo we'll have higher bandwidth communication in a few days.01:41
bskahanpcardune___: looks pretty close01:41
bskahan    skills = List(01:41
bskahan                  title=u"list of skill objects",01:41
bskahan                  value_type=Object(01:41
bskahan                                    title=u"skill object",01:41
bskahan                                    schema=ISkillTemplate01:41
bskahan                                   )01:41
bskahan                 )01:41
bskahanhas more whitespace than in would in schooltool01:41
pcardune___but beyond this, I have a number of zope specific questions about what new features of zope3 are worth using and to what extent01:42
bskahandocstrings in schooltool are pretty much all:01:42
bskahan"""Short sentence with .01:42
bskahanrest of comment01:42
bskahanwhat zope3 questions?01:44
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pcardune___I followed the style of the code in the book "Web Component Development with Zope 3"01:44
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* bskahan nods01:45
pcardune___im glad you copy and pasted that particular portion...01:46
pcardune___Zope3 contains machinery for generating forms based on schema01:46
pcardune___this seems to be to basic for anything beyond simple text fields or one dimensional lists, is this the case?01:46
pcardune___in the book, they talked about writing custom views for generating these forms, is that how schooltool does data input?01:46
bskahanits not used in schooltool for anything else, but I don't think we're using the built in schema generation to its full capacity01:47
th1aI expect that we'll improve our support for autogenerating forms in the future.01:47
bskahanyou can get around using the generated forms pretty easily, but you lose error handling and validation or have to write it yourself01:48
bskahanI'd rather we used the builtin form methods more, not less01:48
th1aThis is the kind of issue we have to resolve in the process of moving from a calendar app to a more general administrative framework.01:49
bskahana good example, the form for sections and the form for groups are very similar in tal, but the section have an additional selection field that automagically gets generated and handled01:50
th1aAnd yes, in this case we want to be more plainly Zope3-ish.01:50
th1aI *think* bskahan and I are on the same wavelength here.01:51
eldafarpaul is having irc problems and your responses are not getting through, i did send all of them, but i think it'll take him a little time to recover01:51
bskahanth1a: yeah, I think so01:52
eldafarok, i have a question about relating objects01:53
eldafari don't really get the thing you have with the relation in schoolbell01:53
bskahaneldafar: its a good way to describe many-to-many relationships01:53
eldafari'm trying to figure out how to relate icompetency with something that implements icompetencyholder01:53
th1aRelationships let you make webs instead of just trees.01:54
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pcardune_gaimok, lets try this on gaim01:54
bskahaneldafar: are you looking for a place to contain/store things, or just relate them?01:55
eldafari'm getting your message, means it's working fine01:55
bskahaneldafar: for 1-many or 1-1 relationships (like a single ICompetencyContainer that holds many ICompetencyGoals) you can just use a container01:56
bskahanbut to relate the many ICompetencyGoals with many diferent students you'd want a web of relationships01:57
eldafari see01:57
th1aRight.  The competencies themselves are a tree.01:57
th1aBut they have other relationships to lots of other things outside their tree.01:57
pcardune_gaimteachers, sections, courses, students...01:58
eldafarso each competency would be in a net with all the students that are related to it01:58
eldafarnet = web01:58
bskahan2 possible competencies: Read, Multiply01:59
bskahan4 students, joe, john, sally, beth01:59
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bskahaneldafar: yes01:59
eldafari see, now it makes sense theoretically02:00
pcardune_gaimI'm not sure that is how we want to do it though02:00
eldafarwhy not?02:01
eldafarthe competencies would be individuals object that are parts of different trees02:01
eldafarand they would also be parts of webs with students02:01
bskahanfor handling different levels of competency, eg. "Read a litle", you could have a diffenent URIObjects or you could just annotate the relationship02:01
th1aI think you need "CompetencyEvaluation" objects, too.02:02
th1aTo tie the necessary objects together.02:02
th1aThe Competency Evaluation connects to the student, the evaluator, the standard, the score and any comments (if you've got them).02:03
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gpaciHey, everybody.02:03
eldafari don't understand the "you could have a diffenent URIObjects or you could just annotate the relationship" part02:03
eldafarhi george ^^02:04
th1aHi, gpaci.02:04
pcardune_gaimth1a: now I'm beginning to see what you mean, and it does make sense to do it that way02:04
bskahanhi gpaci02:04
pcardune_gaimhello gpaci02:04
th1aIt is really important also that the meaning of scores or levels are explicitly defined.02:04
bskahanroleA = StudentGettingEvaluated, roleB = SkillBeingEvaluated?02:05
th1aYou don't want to just use a character or number "A" or "3"  You need to be pointing to an object that describes the meaning of the score.02:05
pcardune_gaimwell, as far as VA state is concerned a score is either 1 through 5, one being totally competent, and and 5 being not at all competent02:06
eldafarcan't we have CompetencyEvaluation take care of defining the score meaning?02:06
bskahanth1a: just thinking of the roles in the relationship02:07
eldafarit's the other way around, paul02:07
eldafarwelsh said 5-1, 5 is the highest02:07
pcardune_gaimeldafar: i thought we changed it to be the other way around because that made more sense, but in actual fact it is the other way around... confusing?02:07
th1aA score is a simple enough object, and it is worth having it.02:08
pcardune_gaimwe want to compartmentalize02:08
eldafarso so far we've got02:08
* th1a spent more time thinking about this problem last year than you can possibly imagine.02:08
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* th1a is a little obsessive.02:09
eldafarwe all are ^.^02:09
pcardune_gaimso, to follow the super generalized pattern of schooltool... the objects would include:02:10
pcardune_gaima competencyEvaluation object02:10
eldafarICompetency, ICompetencyContainer, ICompetencyContainer, ICompetencyEvaluation, IScore02:10
pcardune_gaimthis is linked to a person who is an evaluator02:10
pcardune_gaimalso linked to another person who is being evaluated02:10
pcardune_gaimlinked to some kind of standard upon which the person is being evaluated02:11
bskahanI'd just tag the evaluator as an attribute on the ICompetencyEvaluation02:11
th1aOne or more evaluators, perhaps.02:11
gpacihelp userhost02:11
th1abskahan:  Keep it a relationship, I'd say.02:11
bskahanunless you need more than one evaluator ... :\02:11
pcardune_gaimalso linked to some kind of scoring system02:11
jelknerwe do need more than one02:12
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jelknerin fact, the highest level of competency in the virginia scale is "can teach others"02:12
pcardune_gaimI took a course on object oriented design... 1st year college level... and it never went in to stuff like this... this will be cool02:13
jelknerdave welsh and i both want students at this level to be able to evaluate their peers on those compentcies for which they have attained the "can teach others" level02:13
th1aCando doesn't have to refer to the assignment or work itself, does it?02:13
pcardune_gaimwhat about adaptors?02:13
jelknerthla: well, i answered too fast02:14
jelknerwe want student portfolios linked to competencies02:14
pcardune_gaimcould we have an adaptor called IEvaluator which gives an IPerson the ability to evaluate someone?02:14
jelknerbut the score does not directly link to the portfolio02:14
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bskahanpcardune___: yes02:15
th1aBut the Competency Evaluation could have an optional URL attribute pointing to the work in the Portfolio?02:16
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eldafaryeah, definitely02:16
pcardune_gaimwe also want links from the standard to curriculum02:17
eldafarso each competency would have a url attr pointing to official description too02:18
gltyaschrgda search feature for each statistic would be nice02:18
th1aUltimately, all these functions will be assimilated into SchoolTool.02:19
bskahanI can't find it now, Jim Fulton had a presentation with a gentle introduction to adapters from pyCon200502:19
bskahanI know its on the web somewhere02:19
gltyaschrgdeverything's on the web somewhere, it's just a matter of finding it02:19
pcardune_gaimbskahan: that would be very helpful02:19
bskahanask in #zope3-dev, someone there might know02:20
pcardune_gaimso how do we go about assimilating these things into schooltool02:20
th1aProbably you need to have a complete representation of the competencies and their descriptions in the Cando system.02:20
th1aAll in good time...02:20
th1aWe can't do everything at once.02:21
eldafarso do we just build cando as a side package in /src directory for now?02:21
pcardune_gaimis there a way to do it where we dont have to edit any school tool files, but just add a cando folder to the src directory?02:21
pcardune_gaimor atleast make very few changes to schooltool files02:21
eldafarno to which question?02:21
bskahanthe last one02:21
bskahanif your very tricky you can modify very few schooltool files02:22
th1apcardune_gaim:  We'll be working on making things more modular once we get the next calendaring release out in August.02:22
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pcardune_gaimth1a: you are suggesting we develope it seperately and integrate later then, but while still making use of the schooltool and schoolbell interfaces/objects?02:23
bskahanits going to be more difficult though, using adaptation and annotation alot02:23
dwooQuick Question: Does schooltool have any built-in ways of displaying dictionaries?02:23
* bskahan would branch from a point in schooltool02:23
bskahanthen merge changes back into the framework as it gets fleshed out02:23
gltyaschrgdi think the best approach is making the cando seperately, and wait for the most complete and stable release of schooltool before integrating it02:24
eldafarwe have a deadline to meet02:24
bskahanthat's why I'd just branch02:24
bskahansaves the trouble of recreating all the student/schedule/security/course/section structure02:25
th1aThat's the tradeoff.02:25
gltyaschrgdpossibly adding a function to schooltool that can take a seperately programmed application in a specific format and integrate it effectively02:25
th1aThe really hard part is already done via Zope3's component architecture.02:26
gltyaschrgdwhat's the deadline?02:26
eldafarthe core needs to be done by july 1902:26
th1aI agree with bskahan that working from a branch is probably you're best bet.02:26
eldafar(19:22:24) th1a said: We'll be working on making things more modular once we get the next calendaring release out in Augus02:27
pcardune_gaimthat sounds good to me02:27
bskahangrab 0.10, work from there02:27
eldafarim good too02:27
bskahanI have to run folks02:28
th1aThanks bskahan.02:28
eldafarthank you02:28
eldafarsee you some time later02:28
bskahannp, good luck guys, ttyl02:28
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gltyaschrgdan idea for cando is a format with many different modules02:30
gltyaschrgdlike, curriculum, sceduling, grading02:31
gltyaschrgdadmin, teachers, student, parent level acess02:31
eldafarscheduling is taken care of by schooltool02:31
eldafaradmin, teachers, students are all persons with different permissions02:31
pcardune_gaimall of that would be done by the administrators of schooltool/cando02:32
pcardune_gaimand wouldn't be explicitly coded into cando02:32
gltyaschrgdi think an add-on based format would make it easier to create, so instead of writing everything at once, each module could be programmed seperately02:32
eldafarpaul login to aimn02:33
th1aSchoolTool is intended to be very modular.02:33
th1aThat's why we use Zope3.02:33
th1aIt just isn't totally modular now because we've had to concentrate on producing something that schools can actually use in the fall.02:34
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th1aI would expect some parts of CanDo to become part of the standard distribution of SchoolTool.02:35
gltyaschrgdthat would be nice02:35
gltyaschrgdotherwise, we'd need a complete installation tool for cando02:35
pcardune_gaimjust like in schooltool, there is no such thing as Instructors or students... at least not that i have seen... it is up to the admin to create those two groups02:36
pcardune_gaimand the admin could break it up even further and make freshman, sophomore, etc groups...02:36
eldafarwe could have cando as an optional package02:36
eldafarbecause not everyone would want to have cando as a part of their schooltool02:36
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pcardune___what did i miss?02:39
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th1aNot a thing.02:40
pcardune___so is this xpdc thing happening over in arlington yet?02:41
gltyaschrgdnot that i know of02:42
kashifi don't think so02:42
gpaciThere are a bunch of us gathered in 217 at Yorktown High.02:45
gpaciRight now.  Hunched over IRC.02:45
kashifyup yup02:45
ffsnoopyguess im not missing much eh?02:45
gltyaschrgdnot at all02:45
pcardune___does anyone want to draw a diagram on dia of what we have talked about?02:45
dwooNo, not really, no.02:46
gpaciWhere the heck are you, Mitch?02:46
ffsnoopyat home02:46
ffsnoopysomething came up02:46
ffsnoopyand i couldnt come02:46
gltyaschrgdcome on over02:46
eldafarok sure, i'll do it on the board02:46
eldafaror i'll attempt to02:46
ffsnoopybut if all we're doing is right here02:46
gpaciToo bad I didn't bring my camera.02:46
pcardune___don't feel left out... i didn't go either02:46
kashifwe'll leave it up there02:46
gpaciWe just had a small caucus here, during which we said:02:47
gpaciThere are basically two questions: (1) Is the stuff we write going to live on the schooltool svn server?02:47
th1aI've got a diagram of my old system:
gpaci(2) As we develop cando, how often do we want to pull updates of schooltool?02:47
gltyaschrgdi think i want to get updates as soon as they come out and are widely implemented02:48
th1aI think all the changes in the next couple months are calendaring related, so not very relevant to your work.02:48
gpaciThere's agreement on (2): we want to get the changes to schooltool as they happen (at least daily), so we don't have a big integration hassle at the end.02:48
kashifregular updates might require lot of work02:48
th1aWe're shooting for a September/October release that will make SchoolTool a more stable framework.02:49
kashifor atleast regular02:49
th1aI don't know if I should say "frozen API" at this point.02:49
pcardune___th1a, in your diagram, what does ps: and dc: mean?02:49
th1aThat's an RDF model, so they're xml namespaces.02:50
th1adc = dublin core02:50
th1aps = an RDF schema for performance standard evaluations.02:50
pcardune___dublin core... i skipped over that section in the book02:51
th1aJust a standard set of metadata.02:51
th1aTitle, Description, Creator, etc.02:51
gpaciMore work?02:52
th1aIf you're in a hurry I'd bypass it.02:52
th1aMy impression is that it takes a little while to grok how Zope3 does dublin core.02:52
gpaci(Sorry, I was replying to Kashif.)02:52
kashifI mean regular02:53
gpaciGive me the whole thought again...02:53
eldafarthere is an opposition among us02:53
th1aI think you're going to have to do one big integration, because things will change *fast* once they start changing.02:53
eldafarpaul and i want to have cando on our cvs for now02:54
pcardune___well I am going to draw up a diagram of which will look a lot like th1a's but maybe with different names02:54
kashifif we update it regularly, like daily, then we have to meet everyday.02:54
eldafarjeff and the rest would like to be it in your* so to speak, svn02:54
th1apcardune__: one small thing -- SchoolTool's relationships are two way.02:54
pcardune___eldafar, I thought that was the plan?  who is opposing us?02:54
eldafarand george02:55
eldafarand the rest02:55
eldafarwe're alone :(02:55
th1aHm?  I think it would be easier at this point for you guys to work from your own repository.02:55
ffsnoopyyes it would02:55
pcardune___eldafar, where do they propose putting it?02:55
th1aAnd in August/September we'll have like five full time developers moving around large chunks of SchoolTool.  I wouldn't try to keep up with that every day.02:56
gpacikashif: if you're not working one day, you don't update that day.02:57
gltyaschrgdhow about every week?02:57
jelknerit not a matter of keeping up with all the changes02:57
jelknerwe svn up02:57
jelknerrun our tests02:57
jelknerif nothing is broke, we go about our business02:57
jelknerbut if something is broke, we fix it now, rather than later02:57
th1aThe think is, there's no guarantee we'll actually be taking the shortest distance between two points when we're making those changes.02:58
gltyaschrgdin order to be able to effectively update often, we'll have to agree on a standard format for data storage early, in order to avoid having to move data around during updates02:58
th1aAnyway, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.02:58
gpaciYou think you'll be backtracking?02:58
gpaciJElkner's saying the only two candidates for where to keep the CanDo code are SourceForge or SchoolTool's repository.03:00
jelknerwe have a cando repository on sourceforge03:00
th1aIf you keep it in our repository there is a bit of paperwork that would have to be done.03:00
gpaci(th1a: I liked your talk on ITConversations.)03:01
gltyaschrgdidea: link the 2 repositories so that a change on one will cause the other to update03:01
eldafarwhich is one of the reasons we're not having it on schooltool repository03:01
th1agpaci:  Thanks!  We had to squeeze a lot into 15 minutes.03:01
th1aDoes sf have svn yet?03:01
eldafarglt: that'd be even more problematic03:01
jelknerthla: no, only cvs03:02
th1aI really think you guys should just work from our releases.03:02
gpaciHow often will you be releasing (I missed the beginning).03:03
pcardune___well, you all know my position03:03
gpaciYep: Senegal.03:03
th1aEarly August and then late September/October.03:03
gpaciSo about every two months.03:03
gpaciWhat's to stop us from starting off trying to keep up with you, and lagging if it's too tough?03:04
th1aI'm just saying that between those two, it is going to be a BIG rearrangement, which will then stabilize considerably through the spring, if all goes as planned.03:04
th1agpaci:  That's probably fine... I think we've beaten this into the ground by now.03:05
gpaciAll the more reason to digest the big rearrangement in 1- or 2-day bites.03:05
gpaciOK.  Moving on seems like the popular move now....03:06
ffsnoopydinner, i'll be away for a little while03:06
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pcardune___This will also mean not updating zope...03:06
pcardune___unless we can figure out how to run schooltool from a zope instance rather than the script03:07
th1aWe will stabilize on Zope 3.1 asap.03:07
pcardune___i personally thinking running schooltool from a zope instance is a good idea, what do others think of this03:08
* eldafar agrees03:08
th1aI'm not sure why it is causing you such trouble.03:09
gpacipcardune__: I had schooltool running from a Zope instance a couple days ago.03:09
pcardune___i haven't played with it much yet, just followed what you (gpaci) put up on the wiki... it didn't work, i cant remember the error03:10
gpacipcardune__: ... and now, oddly, it doesn't: welcome.stx is missing.03:12
pcardune___gpaci, interesting03:12
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gpaciLet me go on record as hating XML and all it (actually) stands for.03:13
pcardune___i like it but find it to be a bit cumbersome... why can't the rest of the world adopt indentation as defining blocks?03:14
jelknerok, help me out here...03:15
gpaciI think I found the problem: I was working under /tmp, which is, well, only temporary....03:15
jelknerpaul and eldar, do you feel like you know how to proceed with cando during the next week?03:15
pcardune___jelkner, yes absolutely03:16
jelknercause july 19 is not far away03:17
pcardune___it will take a slightly more thurough understanding of schooltool and zope... but short answer: yes03:17
jelknerthla: i found out that dave welsh will be at necc03:17
jelknerdave is cando's main customer03:17
jelknerhe will be giving talks in at least 3 career and tech conferences in august about it03:18
gpaciAnd of course my .svn/entries file was removed, so I can't just pull an update.  Sigh.03:18
jelknerjuly 19 is the first one03:18
th1aWell, that's interesting.03:18
jelknerhis job description for next year changed so that he can spend time getting the whole arlington career center trainined in the use of cando next fall03:19
jelknerso he *really* needs it to work soon03:19
jelknerhe is happy with the old version03:19
pcardune___we should really make an official release of the old version at some point...03:20
jelknerbut the old version is a dead end, and if we get everyone using it we will have trouble switching03:20
jelkneri don't want to go down that road03:20
pcardune___he he he03:20
gpaciStructured Text must also die.03:20
th1aThat way lies madness.03:20
jelknerthat's why i want the new cando to do what the old one cando ;-) by july 1903:21
jelknereldar, paul, do you have everything you need from the folks here to move forward?03:23
jelknerfolks, my wife is coming to pick me up, i gotta run...03:25
eldafaryeah for right now03:25
eldafarbai bai03:25
jelknerthla: thanks for meeting with us03:26
pcardune___we will be back though03:26
pcardune___to ask about the front end03:26
jelknercan we do this again in 2 weeks?03:26
eldafaror anything that comes up03:26
pcardune___why not sooner?03:26
eldafarnext week?03:26
jelknerpcardune__: i imagine you'll be hanging out a lot03:26
jelkneri just ment for our next xp code fest03:27
pcardune___oh, ok03:27
th1aI'll try to switch my nick when I'm not actually here.03:28
th1aSee you in Philly, jelkner.03:28
pcardune___bye jelkner03:28
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eldafarbye tom, thank you03:29
eldafaroh you're not leaving03:29
eldafarjeff is, oops03:29
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eldafaralright, good night everyone03:41
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gpaciI've checked out and built schooltool and Zope3 again.  Now I'm trying to run one under the other...03:44
gpaciOK: I've got schooltool running under Zope3 (again).03:46
pcardune___in a Zope instance?03:47
gpaciAnd schooltool running standalone.03:47
gpaciI didn't make a Zope instance; I used the stuff inside the checked-out Zope3 folder.03:48
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gpaci(And added "path ../src" to  .)03:48
gpaciI followed the instructions on the Wiki to the letter.03:48
gpaciWhat error do you get, pcardune?03:48
gpaciOh, yeah: what platform are you on?  Linux?03:50
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pcarduneyeah, i did that to....03:51
pcarduneis that all you did?03:51
pcardunefedorca core 303:51
pcardunerunning python2.403:52
gpaciHm.  I'm on OSX 10.3, using python2.3 .03:55
gpaciDo you have libxml2-python in your PYTHONPATH ?03:55
gpaciThe actual error message would be an excellent place to start.03:56
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pcarduneit probably has to do with python2.304:02
gpaciIt's a prime suspect.  Let me try it later with python2.4 and get back to you.04:11
gpaciWhat's your email?04:11
th1aIt should work with 2.3.  You might need to tweak the Makefile, though.04:12
ffsnoopyi had to tweak the makefile for 2.404:13
gpaciAha: now we're getting somewhere.04:16
gpaci(Of course, you could just use 2.3.)04:16
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biffherothe new schoolbell seems lots faster than the 0.x that I was using before.  woo hoo!05:08
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biffheroI am having problems with the web interface to the new schoolbell05:22
biffherohow do I tell it to display times other than 0800-1800.  I have things which start at 1900 and 2000 some times05:23
biffherowait, the problem looked to be that when I used the manager user to change the preferences (time zone and weekstartson:), they didn't take.  That caused problems with my perception of the calendars05:25
biffherostink!  still not working.  maybe it is the caching in my browser, konqueror.05:28
biffherook, not my browser.  this web interface is killing me.05:31
th1aIf you manually change the time of an event in the add form to 1900 or 2000, don't they then show up?05:32
biffheroif you go to "view weekly calendar", you can click on an appt, and it comes up as editable.  If you go to "view monthly calendar", and click on an appt, it takes you to the daily view for that day, and if they are out of the time for the day, you can't edit them.05:33
biffheroit is inconsistent to get to the add form for events which already exist, but are outside the area.  now it is showing me more time on this day, but that's _after_ I set the appt to be 1500-1700, vs the 2000-2200 it was before05:34
biffheronow the daily form is showing me 0800-230005:34
biffheroit was showing me 0800-2300 when the item was from 1500-1700.  I changed it to be 2000-2200, and the form is back to showing me 0800-1800 again05:35
biffheroI think I know why, it has to do with my timezone setup05:36
th1aYeah.  Timezones.  Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.05:36
biffheroeven though I edited the task to be 2000-2200, recurring every Thu., they show up on Fri in the small left-hand calendars.05:37
th1aI think it would be nice to have a different calendar template that handles evening events better.05:37
biffheroso I am goign to nuke the appt, see if creating it as this user (it was first created as manager for this user, when this user was set up as UTC (even though manager had set this user to be in PDT)) makes a difference05:38
biffheroI presume that timezones work as follows:  store everything as UTC, display it as the user wants to see it.05:39
th1aTo be perfectly frank, I'm not sure.05:40
th1aI'm the education guy, not a calendaring expert.05:41
tvonbiffhero: that is right05:42
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biffheroI found a workaround.05:45
biffherosort of.  If I set the appt to be yesterday, recurring every wed, it shows up in the small calendars on thurs.  shows up on the "view monthly calendar" on thurs.05:46
biffherotvon, is there a way to change the 8am-6pm thing to be 00-2300 for the entire calendar, that way we could at least see our appts05:47
biffherothis is amazing.  was there timezones in the 0.x release?  maybe I have to put everyone in UTC05:48
biffherowell, everyone in utc looks like it is working now.05:50
tvonbiffhero: if you find a rendering bug, please file it in the tracker06:06
biffherotvon, I am pretty sure that this is a timezone bug, they are all happy with UTC set06:10
biffheroI found a string bug in the web interface, though.06:10
* tvon sighs06:10
* tvon spent a fair amount of time fixing timezone bugs06:10
tvonbiffhero: what release are you using?06:11
biffheroum, latest through debian, wait one06:11
biffheroii  libschoolbell  1.1.1-1  ii  schoolbell     1.1.1-106:11
tvondamn, it's supposed to work06:11
biffhero Change contact details forRob Walker    on @@details.html , looks like a space is missing there in that string06:13
biffheroeasy fix, do you want a bug filed?06:14
tvonnah, I'll take care of it now06:14
tvonhrm, there is a space in the template06:14 line 1606:15
biffherohrmm...  checking mine06:15
biffherohere is mine.06:16
biffhero      Change contact details for<span tal:replace="context/title"06:16
* tvon nods06:17
biffheroadded the space, fixed here.06:17
tvonit's fixed in svn, too bad it wasn't in that release though06:17
biffheroI am not crazy enough to think that I am doing everything right here.  Do you want access to my server to see the timezone problems I think I am seeing?06:18
tvonI don't have time to dig into any bugs at the moment I'm afraid, but perhaps on Monday if you are available06:19
biffherofound two quick display/rendering bugs related to the UTC stuff06:19
biffherook, will file them.  I might be able to come back here, not sure06:19
tvonokay, thanks06:20
biffheroum, will file it, it is not showing the proper template against the appointments scheduled06:20
biffherohow close is the debian version with the one?  I mean, "should I file the bug with debian (since I am using their package), or with ?06:21
tvongo ahead and file it with schooltool06:21
tvonthe debian packager is one of us anyways06:22
th1abiffhero:  You're creating these events through the web interface, right?  Not uploading your old .ics files?06:33
biffheroyes, all through the web interface06:43
biffherowhat is that thing called which starts at 08:00 and ends at 18:00 every day?07:24
biffherotvon: issue 29507:31
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ciphergothIs it possible to set a user's password via the REST interface?15:55
bskahanhi ciphergoth15:57
bskahanI don't believe it is15:57
ciphergothI want a simple way to link in to an existing user database16:00
bskahanI could be wrong, I took a quick look16:00
ciphergoththe easiest thing I can imagine is a CGI script that lets them create their SchoolBell account and set the password16:00
ciphergothor change it16:00
bskahanoh, yeah you can16:01
bskahanPUT /school/persons/john/password16:02
ciphergothwhat about creating users?16:03
bskahanthe best way to figure out the REST interface is to take a look at the ftests16:03
bskahanin schoolbell/app/rest/ftests16:03
bskahanapp.txt in there has examples of creating persons and setting passwords16:04
ciphergothmany thanks!16:08
bskahanwhen you get something working, mind mailing the schooltool-dev list about it?16:09
bskahanits nice to know what people are using the REST interface to do16:09
bskahanone thing you can't do at the moment is set contact information via REST16:10
ciphergothcontact information's not so important, though it would be nice16:11
ciphergothit's the authentication that matters16:11
* bskahan nods16:11
ciphergothI'm going to use OpenID...16:11
ciphergothWhat characters are allowed in usernames?16:11
bskahanURI legal characters16:11
ciphergothSo would be legal16:12
bskahanthere was a bug with some UTF-8 charaters, but I believe its fixed16:12
ciphergothbut not
bskahanno, '/' isn't URI legal16:13
ciphergothYou mean something different than what I expect by URI legal then16:13
bskahanheh, it has to be a valid token in a URI16:13
bskahanthe person will be located at /app/persons/username16:14
ciphergothah, I see16:14
bskahanso the username can't contain a '/'16:14
bskahanthere's a dozen or so characters that aren't legal, that's the only one I know off the top of my head16:15
ciphergothI wonder how best to map URIs to usernames then.  URI encoding I guess...16:15
bskahanI'm pretty sure they allready are16:15
ciphergothso that would be
ciphergothnot the prettiest, but tolerable I guess...16:16
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bskahanhi erchache16:42
ciphergothone more thing - how do I get Apache to defer certain requests to SchoolTool, assuming it's running?16:43
ciphergothApache2 that i16:43
ciphergothApache2 that is16:43
bskahanciphergoth: I haven't looked into apache/schooltool interaction much, when tvon is around later ask him, his apache-foo is better than mine16:44
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povbot/svn/commits: * gintas committed revision 4131:16:59
povbot/svn/commits: Updated the test runner not to print import time if -q is specified.16:59
bskahannice online course project17:09
th1aI'm working on a brochure for NECC.17:41
th1aA SchoolTool brochure, that is.17:41
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povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4132:17:54
povbot/svn/commits: added a missing translation attribute17:54
erchacheth1a: who is schooltool web admin?17:55
erchachei want to know certains details about server requirements for a plone site17:55
th1aUh... me?17:56
erchacheyou know schooltool web admin?17:56
th1aHe would be more able to answer that question than me.17:56
th1aWell, I suppose it depends on what you man by 'admin.'  I maintain the site, but not the server.17:56
th1aIt is POV's server.17:56
erchachepov's server? :(17:57
th1aProgrammers of Vilnius:  Aiste, mgedmin, ignas, etc.17:57
bskahanhi erchache17:58
bskahanI administer a number of plone sites17:58
erchachebskahan: you are my man17:58
erchachebskahan: i want to install a new plone server to make portal of a university's departent17:58
erchachehas 1300 average users17:59
bskahanthe server requirements are not huge, RAM is more important than CPU, squid is good17:59
erchache2 gb?17:59
bskahanhow many concurrent users17:59
bskahan2gb is plenty17:59
erchacheuhmmm i dont have these information :(17:59
erchachebut less users17:59
erchacheperhaps 1 or 2 days or overheat produced for a important publication18:00
erchacheeverybody on plone says 4 expensive :818:00
bskahanyour talking about 1300 users per day, right?18:01
erchachebut old system are installed on a fucked (excuse me....) iis on a proliant p3 xeon with low memory18:01
erchache2000 on limit18:02
erchache9:00 - 14:00 are the bigest used hours18:02
bskahanHits per Day 42878 11830018:02
bskahanfrom a server with 1.5G18:03
erchachei have these values18:03
erchache12000 hits per day18:03
erchache9.19 per user18:03
bskahanthats average/max18:03
erchache5200 pages average day18:04
bskahanI think you can get away with 2G happily, more is always better18:04
bskahanit depends on how many people are logged in at a time and how often content changes18:04
erchachemy boss cut my head if arent enough18:04
erchachevery very static18:04
erchachesquid is my friend :D18:04
erchachei dont need squid18:04
bskahanwhy not use squid?18:05
erchachethis server is on lan of my university which has his own squid proxuy server18:05
erchachei hve 4 big squid proxy servers18:05
erchachethat can do this work for me!18:05
erchacheim on same lan!18:05
bskahanyou should be in good shape18:05
erchacheif a user make a petition....these servers on dns-rr can do it!18:06
erchachegood no?18:06
bskahanplone performance is not great under the best cases, but it doesn't get that much worse ;)18:06
erchacheworse that my actual system no?18:07
bskahanthat's true too18:07
bskahanI'm continually surprised by the crap hardware people get away with running plone on18:08
erchacheif actual system serve it.....this new rack server can do work too and better no?18:08
bskahanand they pull it off18:08
erchachemore powerful than apache?18:08
bskahanwhat's more powerful than apache?18:08
erchacheplone/zope system18:08
bskahannot even close18:09
erchacheexplain better english are limited18:09
bskahanapache will serve thousands of pages off a pentium218:09
erchachei know18:09
erchachebut compared with zope/plone......18:09
bskahanzope/plone has different requirements18:09
bskahantake a look at squid's performance requirements18:10
erchachewaste all money my wallet supports to get more memory to my new rack server18:10
erchache32 mb per gb need squid18:12
erchacheyou say same to plone?18:12
povbot/svn/commits: * bskahan committed revision 4133:18:12
povbot/svn/commits: more missing i18n18:13
bskahanno, if squid is running on the same box you have to account for both18:14
bskahanyou have a seperate squid server though18:14
th1aWell, isn't that interesting.18:20
bskahanthat's pretty cool18:21
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ciphergothSchoolBell uses absolute URLs throughout to refer to itself18:33
ciphergothso if you try and put it behind Apache it breaks horribly18:33
ignas_are you sure you have configured Zope3 properly ?18:34
ignas_like err iirc Zope3 handles it18:34
ignas_you should ask in #zope3-dev for exact details, or google ...18:34
ciphergothI'm using the Debian package18:35
ciphergothbut I'll ask in Zope3-dev18:36
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th1aAiste:  Do you have a higher resolution version of your logo than is on the website?19:16
Aistehm, I think I do19:16
th1aI'm working on a print brochure for SchoolTool.19:16
Aistedo you need it now?19:16
th1aI'll probably be printing them Sunday.19:16
AisteI'm slightly overwhlemed by all preparation for the conference19:16
th1aSome of them...19:16
th1aI'm doing the same thing for a different conference.19:17
th1aUnfortunately, the big ed-tech and Zope conferences are exactly the same time.19:17
th1aAnyhow, it isn't a big deal either way.19:17
Aistehow much better do you need it?19:17
th1aUh... Well, let's assume that it will be printed an inch high.19:18
Aisteand you would probably prefer a CMYK one19:18
Aisterather than RGB?19:18
th1aI don't think we're that sophisticated.19:18
Aistei could send you a CMYK eps file19:19
erchachecmyk are for profesional printing19:19
erchachecian magenta yellow and black19:19
th1aRight now I'm just making a PDF and cranking them through a laser printer, so that's probably overkill.19:19
erchachewith 4 colours you can make better images than grb19:19
Aisteyes erchache, i am aware of that19:19
erchachegreen red blue19:19
th1aI actually took a course on that stuff many moons ago.19:19
th1aMy sister is doing this in InDesign.19:20
erchachehere on spain cmyk boys are apple boys....because they are using photoshop19:20
Aisteth1a, OK I put up a bigger one on the web and post a link here19:20
erchacheand rgb boys are intel/linux boys....because we dont use photoshop19:20
Aistephotoshop? in apple? i thought apple had better software that photoshop19:20
erchachephotoshop was designed on first to apple19:21
erchachebut for windows too19:21
erchachei prefeer gimp ;P19:21
erchachei was figthing with my gmails acount because i have overload....i create some ones to get clear information19:22
Aistegimp seriously sucks for professional printing19:22
erchachebecause doesnt have hardware support :P19:22
ignas_erchache, because gimp was not designed for professional printing that's all19:23
th1aThere are also IP issues around some basic technologies, like Pantone colors, iirc.19:23
erchacheno i think is a harware support problem19:23
Aisteth1a: here you go --
Aistepantone colours is the main one19:24
Aisteand their CMYK support is still cranky19:24
ignas_erchache, have you been subscribet to gimp mailing list ? the question was answered in a pretty detailed way in there ...19:24
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erchachewell if you say.....19:24
erchachei dont want to discuss that....19:25
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