IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-05-17

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th1aWhat about it?00:16
th1aAre you new to Moodle?00:16
th1aI've never actually done anything with it, but it is getting pretty huge.00:16
bskahan_never seen it before00:17
th1aYeah, it is the open source alternative to BlackBoard, etc.00:17
th1aPHP, unfortunately.00:17
th1aI expect it to continue growing pretty quickly.00:18
th1aWe'll need to address interoperating with them at some point.00:19
* bskahan_ downloads00:19
tvonanyone looked at Sakai?00:22
th1aI can't say that I have.00:23
th1aI mean, I've looked at the website.  I haven't actually tried out the application.00:24
tvonwas about to give it a whirl00:25
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tvonIs there some way to actually see tracebacks with the standalone servers that I'm missing?12:59
mgedmintvon, go to /++etc++site, find the error service, check [x] copy tracebacks to console13:02
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tvonI didn't know that was in the standalone servers, thanks13:03
mgedminI wonder if we can devise a way to turn that on by default13:11
mgedminI wonder if it should be on by default -- it causes tracebacks for innocent errors such as NotFound too13:12
tvonit should be possible via the config file13:12
mgedminI think13:15
tvonI'm not sure how you would define the difference between that and error-log-file though13:16
tvonI don't understand the difference myself13:16
tvonI assumed it was something along the lines of 'zope errors' vs 'app errors'13:17
tvonRFC: For person csv importing, I'm going with "username, title, optional password".. make sense?13:21
bskahan_tvon: that's "username, Real Name, optionalpasswrd"?13:23
tvonbskahan_: yeah13:23
bskahan_sounds right13:23
bskahan_"username, Real Name, optionalpasswrd, Base54 Encoded picture" seems cumbersome ;)13:24
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tvonso since we can't mutate a username if there is a duplicate, should we just rollback the whole transaction if there are duplicates in the csv?13:57
bskahan_tvon: drop the duplicates14:00
bskahan_and report them14:00
tvonI think it might be better to not add anything if there are duplicates14:31
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tvonIt is probably easier for the user to edit their original CSV than to cut/paste whatever duplicates there are and edit them14:31
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bskahan_anyone know how to clear the CSS cache in safari?15:05
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SteveAth1a: hello15:09
SteveAi have spoken to james troup, canonical's sysadmin.  there's a machine for schooltool to use.  use is shared with some other stuff, but that shouldn't be a problem.  he'll come here and arrange things later today.15:10
bskahan_SteveA: thanks!15:13
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bskahan_tvon: 223 is 'fixed' want to take a look at it before I mark it resolved?15:14
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srichteryeah z3lab is the falme discussion of the month right now :-)16:41
algabskahan: ZMI icon and favicon.ico for SchoolTool are still the litte bell16:41
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bskahanalga: thanks16:46
bskahantvon: ZMI icon and favicon.ico for SchoolTool are still the litte bell16:47
bskahani actually tried to simplify and shrink the zebra(?) at some point last week16:47
bskahanbut I didn't have much luck16:48
bskahanmgedmin: that's pretty cool16:54
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tvonthat is pretty spiffy looking16:59
bskahantvon & th1a: should csv import of persons even allow inserting passwords?17:00
tvonI think so.  if you are migrating from some other system for example17:01
bskahanplain text passwords in a CSV file just leaves a bad taste in my mouth17:01
* bskahan shrugs17:01
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tvonI'm not wild about the concept either, but I think it's just a bad taste and not a real issue17:05
mgedminso, timetable exceptions should be diked out, as far as I understand?17:09
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th1aDiked out?17:16
th1aNot to be confused with "dyke."17:19
th1aBut yes, timetable exceptions are diked out.17:20
tvonits a term that is better suited for text communications than open conversation17:24
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th1abskahan:  What was causing the form layout issue in Safari?17:25
bskahanth1a: float:left;clear:left17:25
tvonSafari was causing it :)17:25
bskahanhaving pretty forms with17:25
bskahanlabel: [     ]17:26
bskahandidn't work out17:26
bskahanso now its the standard17:26
bskahan  hints17:26
bskahan[     ]17:26
mgedminignas showed me some fun mozilla behaviour with float:left; clear:left yesterday17:26
bskahanmgedmin: big long empty spaces?17:26
mgedminlabel jumping down 1/2 the screen down and overlaying other text already there17:27
bskahaneither I don't understand what clear:left is supposed to do or clear:* is questionably implemented17:27
mgedminis there clear:*?17:27
mgedminI only know about clear left/right/both17:28
bskahanmeant clear:[left right both]17:28
th1aI discovered last night that the state of Indiana is planning a 1-to-1 computing initiative in their schools statewide using Linux desktops.17:32
bskahani've run into that in seceral places17:32
bskahanth1a: have a link?17:32
bskahanthat's pretty exciting17:32
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bskahanthe "i've run into that in several places" -> clear:left/both bugs17:33
th1abskahan:  There's no link.  It is all very stealthy.17:33
th1aDon't bother Googling for it.17:33
th1aI'll forward an email about it.17:34
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bska|mobileth1a: now I see the 1:1 linux thing on k12osn17:55
th1aIt doesn't sound like they're thinking thin clients, which is bizarre.17:58
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jintyyay, only one issue left for schoolbell 1.1!18:07
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bska|mobilejinty ran off before he could explain that18:09
bska|mobileI'll apply those patches18:10
bska|mobilegintas: if I have a paragraph which is translated and the paragraph has some <strong></strong> elements in it18:41
bska|mobilewhat's the correct way to translate that?18:41
bska|mobilecurrently I have <p i18n:translate="">blah blah <strong i18n:translate="">foo</strong> blah blah</p>18:42
bska|mobilecurrently I'm thinking <p><span i18n="">blah blah</span> <strong i18n:translate="">foo</strong> <span i18n="">blah blah</span></p>18:43
bska|mobilesrichter: either one works?18:51
srichterbska|mobile: use <p i18n:translate="">blah blah <strong>foo</strong> blah blah</p>18:52
bska|mobiledidn't really want to have to do it the other way, since there's more than one strong tag18:52
srichterif foo is not generated by TAL then it is okay to have HTML markup as prt of your striong18:52
bska|mobilemakes sense18:53
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erchacherosetta schooltool es_ES translation are finished!18:55
erchacheWhen are include into schooltool package? on schooltool 1.1 on 31th may?18:55
bska|mobileerchache: that's exciting18:55
th1aerchache:  Excellent!18:56
th1aWe are doing a "release candidate," i.e. beta release later today.18:56
erchachei should finish howtos on spanish18:56
th1aHopefully we can include it.18:56
th1aI should finish howtos in English...18:56
bska|mobilecan we make them the es translation instead?  until we have other es_XXs?18:56
erchachei can do spanish howto before 31th may18:56
* bska|mobile chuckles18:56
erchachebska|mobile: i see other es_XXs files and dont be good18:57
erchachees_ES are the best18:57
* bska|mobile nods18:57
th1aerchache:  You mean the work done on the others isn't so good?18:57
th1aThe other Spanish translations?18:57
erchachei write to launchpad to solve this bug....we dont have spanish variants on our spanish...i born on Sevilla, southspain18:57 not sure about this....but es_ES looks good18:58
bska|mobileIf we have a 100% es_ES transalation that could ship in the package, couldn't we make that es so that all es_XX locales inherit that?18:58
* bska|mobile is not sure how substantial the difference from es_ES to es_CO or es_AR would be18:58
erchacheok, but i think spanish user must be only one dictionarie18:59
erchachethis can injured to project for spanish users18:59
erchachei see before in other projects18:59
erchachewikipedia, enciclopedia libre19:00
erchachei work on both19:00
erchacheand im admin for enciclopedia libre19:00
erchachefor example....chile and peru are angry19:00
erchacheand can be use language to make a flamewar19:01
erchachedo you understand me?19:01
* bska|mobile nods19:01
th1aI see.19:01
bska|mobileyou mean that if we make es_ES used as es, when someone expects es_PE (peru), they will not like getting es_ES?19:02
erchacheor es_CO (colombia)19:08
erchacheor es_CH(Chile)19:08
erchacheand RAE, real academy of language, official spanish organization, doesnt like this19:08
erchachewe are second language of the world, and too many people speak same language, with local meanings for some words.....and RAE wants to solve it...19:10
erchacheif you say mouse19:10
erchacheerrrr excuse me19:10
erchacheuff very difficult to explain to english speaker19:10
bska|mobileerchache: that's ok, I'm pretty sure I understand19:11
erchachewell i'll take a coffee.....i'll back on 30 minutes :D19:12
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bska|mobileth1a: I have to go out for a few hours, if the sys admin from canonical is around later can you email me the information?19:19
th1aAlthough I was going to step out for a few hours to run some errands, too...19:20
bska|mobileSteveA: do you have Canonical's sys admin's email address?19:21
SteveAbska|mobile: yes19:22
SteveAhe has very strong anti-spam filters, though ;-)19:22
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tvonany tips on debugging 'method not allowed' errors when working on rest views?19:34
tvoner, REST19:34
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tvon|x31silly wifi19:35
tvon|x31any tips on debugging 'method not allowed' errors when working on REST views?19:35
srichteryeah, use import pdb; pdb.set_trace()19:35
srichterusing pdb you can narrow down the method that you are not permitted to use19:41
srichtermost likely it will be a missing security declarations19:41
srichtermost likely it will be a missing security declaration19:41
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tvon|x31tis pretty nice19:47
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tvonsrichter: thanks20:00
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gintasping th1a20:03
th1aWhat's up?20:04
gintassorry to bother20:04
gintasI had a few questions about the UI of timetables as overlays20:04
th1aNo problem.20:04
gintasthere are two parts:20:04
gintas1) choosing the timetables to display in the overlay portlet20:05
gintas2) choosing timetables to overlay in the portlet itself20:05
gintasone solution would be to always show a person's timetable together with his/her calendar20:05
gintasbut I think you said yesterday that this is not a very good idea, as the result would be cramped20:06
gintasis that correct?20:06
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gintasbasically I don't want to clutter the UI too much20:06
th1aI'd say 1) it would be ok for the timetable to always be a choice in the person's calendar view, if that would simplify things.20:06
gintasit's not really an implementation problem, but a UI problem20:07
gintasthat's why I'm asking for your input20:07
th1aBut that you should turn it on and off like a regular overlay.20:07
gintasyou mean we should have two rows (items) for each person, corresponding to his calendar and his timetable?20:08
bskahancan we call 'timetable' 'schedule' in the UI?20:08
bskahanor something less abstract than timetable20:09
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th1aSchedule is more common usage in the US.20:09
tvonunless tt is common elsewhere20:09
th1agintas:  I'm not sure I understand your question.20:09
th1aMaybe I'm missing something.20:09
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th1aI've been imagining that to the user, the timetable just appears like another calendar overlay.20:10
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gintasthat is sensible20:10
gintasbut there's the problem of limited width of the portlet20:10
gintassqueezing in 'Gintautas Miliauskas' is hard enough20:10
gintas'Gintautas Miliauskas' timetable' would be even worse ;)20:11
th1aActually, it should probably be the name of the timetable.20:11
th1aIf timetable schemas have names now.20:11
gintaswe would be showing the composite timetable, not some individual one20:11
gintasat least that's how I understand it20:12
th1aOK.  That's right.20:12
th1aThen just "Schedule" should be fine.20:12
gintasone other suggestion was to add a second column of checkboxes, but that's unintuitive20:13
gintaswould it be acceptable not to provide the function to overlay timetables of others?20:14
gintasbtw, it's Albertas' birthday, so we're leaving early20:14
gintaslet me think this over20:15
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th1aIt's already after 8:00 pm.20:15
th1aThat's early?20:15
th1aSay "happy birthday" to alga for me!20:15
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* jinty notes that he is about to start releasing schoolbell20:47
th1aCool.  So... will the release include the Spanish translation?20:48
jintyno, it hasn't been committed20:51
jintyunless someone does it now20:51
th1aWell, perhaps I could.20:51
th1aExport as MO file?20:52
erchachejinty: i do it!20:53
jintyno, you have to run ./ from the schoolbell dir20:53
erchachewhat need to commit spanish translation file?20:53
th1aerchache:  You don't have commit access to the repository.20:53
erchacheok ok20:53
th1aOh, and then just commit?20:53
jintywith a manual look over the files before20:54
jintythis is the first real use of the script...20:54
jintyyou will also have to add the files/directories to the repository20:55
erchachejinty: you say my translation is a alpha version until stay on a production environment?20:55
th1aThis is all a test release anyhow.20:55
erchacheuffff a very busy work day!20:56
jintyth1a: forgot to say change create_dir to true in get-rosetta-translations.py20:56
erchachemy brain is converting on soup!20:56
th1aerchache:  ???20:56
bskahanI often have that problem20:56
jintyerchache: you can ask in spanish as well, my writing is bad, but I undertand well20:57
tvonjinty: ah, but *which* spanish? :)20:57
* jinty notes his written english is bad as well:(20:57
th1ajinty:  Is German your first language?20:58
jintytvon: my spanish!20:58
jintyno, embarrasingly enough, english20:58
th1aBut you lived in Germany?20:59
jintytvon: do you mean BS as in Bull Shit or Brian Sutherland?20:59
erchachearrrghhh this look like a marx's brother conversation!20:59
* bskahan thought jinty was in spain20:59
th1ajinty is in Spain.21:00
bskahanjinty: you suffer from the BS problem as well21:00
tvonjinty: the latter, but the former would do if that's your preference21:00
erchachewhat is BS problem?21:00
bskahanhaving the initials BS21:00
bskahanresults in lots of bad jokes21:01
jintyth1a: I was born and raised in south africa, then lived in holland on the german border, then went travelling a while and ended up in spain21:01
jintysomehow it makes sense21:01
th1aAh, this is all more complicated than I thought.21:01
jintyor it did at the time21:01
th1aAm I committing these to the trunk?21:03
bskahanshould get-rosetta-translations be pulling schoolbell-ui files?21:04
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jintywe updated it a few days ago with the schoolbell.pot, it seemed easiest21:04
jintythough I have a directory filled with the old .po files if anyone is interested21:05
th1aIs there such a thing as en_USfr ?21:07
bskahanspoken around southern louisianna21:08
th1aAnd Maine.21:08
th1aShould that be en_US ?21:08
jintyth1a: bug in missing comma and python string continuation21:09
th1aYeah, got it.21:09
erchachetomorrow more! i left....21:13
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bskahana technical question21:14
bskahansince we have es_ES, es_MX but not es or es_CO, what do colombian users see?21:14
jintyno translation as I understand it21:15
* bskahan admits being woefully uninformed about internationalization21:15
bskahanjinty: that's my understanding as well21:15
bskahanbut if we had es then someone in es_CO would get the es transaltions, correct?21:15
jintyI think yes21:16
jintyAs far as I am concerned it is a matter of guiding translators.21:16
* th1a wonders if there is a quicker way to add all these files...21:19
bskahanth1a: add them to svn?21:20
jintyThe way things seem to be working out with rosetta, we might want to let our translators get in contact with the ubuntu translation teams. But I will send a mail to the list...21:20
th1abskahan:  Yeah.  I'm almost done anyhow.21:20
bskahanare you adding all of them?21:20
th1aWell, I just did, although perhaps I shouldn't have.21:21
bskahanI was thinking only add the ones with substantial coverage to the release21:21
bskahanyou can % svn add dir21:21
bskahanto batch add files21:21
bskahanbut I'm sort of against adding them all21:22
th1aWell... what does one see if the translation is incomplete?  A mix of English and the other language?21:22
bskahanoh, nm then21:22
th1aOn the one hand, unprofessional.  On the other, probably more likely to make someone want to finish it.21:23
bskahanI can't get the es_ES translation running here21:23
bskahangot the files from rosetta, set the language to es_ES and the browser locale is es21:24
th1aOK.  Should I commit all these?21:24
jintybskahan: make update-translations21:24
bskahanjinty: I did21:25
* jinty tries it21:25
jintyah, browser locale to es_ES21:26
bskahandamn, I don't have that installed21:27
jintyth1a: maybe wait until bskahan and I sort that out21:27
th1aToo late.21:27
jintywell then21:27
jintybskahan: parhaps try af (afrikaans)21:28
bskahangrabbing some more locales for firefox21:29
bskahanonly have en_US, en, es, and es_CO21:29
bskahantried es_ES, no luck21:43
bskahantrying af now21:43
bskahanaf works21:45
bskahanis afrikaans related to german?21:46
srichterI think afrikaans is a dialect of dutch, but I am not sure21:49
* jinty breathes fire on strichter for mouthing such obscenities about a language from his homeland21:51
jintyIt's one of the 11 official languages in south africa, but very related to dutch.21:52
jintyalnost without grammer though "i am, you am, he am, we am, you (plural) am, they am"21:53
jintyand, I think, one past and one future tense21:55
jintybut beautiful sounding words which probably won't be in the schoolbell translations21:58
jintybskahan: it appears that the es_ES .po has errors.22:01
bskahanth1a: what do you think about reverting that last commit and we'll only include translations that are know to be good?22:03
th1aI'm fine with that.22:03
th1aI'm hoping we can find a volunteer to deal only with translations soon.22:04
bskahanthough how that's determined I'm not sure22:04
jintyis it necessary, it looks like they don't compile to .mo files22:04
th1aOr, we can put them all out now and retract ones that seem to cause problems.22:04
th1aOr just retract all of them because they don't work.22:05
bskahanth1a: that's fine too22:05
bskahanjinty: is what necessary?22:05
jintyto revert them22:05
bskahanno, I guess we can just pull out any that turn out to have problems22:06
jintyI dont even have a .mo file for es_ES because it didn't compile22:06
jintythats why es_ES doesn't work and af does22:06
bskahanI'm concerned about what erchache said about the quality of the transalations22:06
th1aI'm concerned that if nobody looks at the translations they'll never get better.22:07
jintyI also don't think we have the qualifications to judge their quality22:08
srichterkey to a quality translation is a glossary22:08
srichterthat lives separate from the translations itself22:08
srichterthis is very common procedure in the professional worls22:08
srichterthis is very common procedure in the professional world22:08
th1aDo we need some kind of tool for that?22:09
srichterwell, in an ideal world you would want a translation memory22:10
srichterbut for free projects22:10
srichtera simple table is enough22:10
srichterthe key is that every translator can edit it and add comments22:10
srichtersuch as alternative translations22:10
th1aCan you point out an example?22:12
srichterwe have sucked at this yet, though we have started something like it for Zope 3 (though it is not even remotely complete or enough)22:15
* srichter looks for URL22:16
srichterreally my wife should have this conversation with you, since she does this dort of thing as her job22:16
th1aOK.  That would be helpful.22:20
srichterI am almost embarrassed to provide this link22:20
srichterit is actually pathetic ;-)22:20
th1aWell, I just get caught up in trying to figure out the "right" way to do that kind of thing, and end up getting nothing done.22:22
srichterok, the glossary is key22:22
srichterit will ensure that the translations are uniform22:22
srichterbtw, I think KBabel provides some functionalityin this area22:23
srichterany translator working with gettext should use it ;-) it's an awesome tool22:23
srichterit has a catalog manager, some translation memory support (though I have not successfully used it), and nice status reports22:24
th1acatalog manager?22:24
srichteryou can manage all languages with it22:25
* jinty , not wanting to inturrupt, notes he will branch now. Leaving the broken translations in, sending a email to erchache about es_ES.22:27
th1aHm... I think Rosetta needs a built-in glossary.22:33
bskahanth1a: +122:33
srichteryep, in fact that would have been the first I would have implemented22:33
srichterBarry Wrsaw and I layed out a big translation manager framework once22:34
srichter(on top of Zope 3)22:34
srichterbut once I heard about Rosetta I lost interest22:34
* jinty also votes for checking if the *.po files compile to *.mo within rosetta22:35
srichterthat's the reason you should never compile a PO file with plain text editors22:36
srichterand rosetta should really store messages internally as objects, so it can keep track of history and alternative translations22:36
srichterthis would in fact be the base functionality of a tramslation memory (TM)22:37
srichteralso, translations should not be stored on a project basis :-)22:37
srichterbut using categories22:37
srichterthe projects a message string belongs to should be merely an annotation22:38
srichterthis way reuse of translations are easier22:38
jintysilly question: does vim deal with PO files correctly?22:40
srichterI think it has a gettext mode, yes22:42
srichterthough, you are not getting many of the nice features of KBabel22:42
srichtersuch as message numbering, jumping to the next fuzzy or untranslated message, etc22:43
jintythanks, I'll keep KBabal in mind if the need arises for anything more than minor things22:45
srichterbtw, here is Barry and my design documents on a Translation Web Service22:46
srichtermmh, maybe I should start implementing it, since I think Rosetta did not get it right22:47
srichtersuch a tool would be really cool, because all current translation tools suck in merging translations22:50
srichteri.e. merge updated translations from release 1.0.2 into the 1.1 or trunk tree22:50
jintymerging translations is also going to be an issue with schoolbell and rosetta, if people are working on schoolbell translations in the repository and rosetta at the same time22:51
srichterjinty: yes22:53
srichterusually SVN does this automatically for you, but in this case22:53
srichterI am so annoyed I did not know about Rosetts when it was in the design phase; I would have loved to provide some insight22:54
jintyyep, I wanted to build merging functionallity into get-rosetta-translations, but thats probably conceptually the wrong way.22:56
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jintystrichter: insightful chat, but I need some sleep...22:59
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*** th1a is now known as th1a|errands23:41

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