IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-04-05

th1aalga:  That's bskahan's work.00:02
th1aI'll have to figure out how to integrate that into a Plone page.00:04
bskahanth1a: it should pretty much drop in, I was just too lazy to upload all the images and change the href paths00:13
th1aWhat we really need is the photo album product installed on the site.00:17
th1aThen it will be easier to upload batches of screenshots.00:17
th1aI've avoided nagging mgedmin about dealing with Plone administration.00:17
th1aHere's an interesting tidbit:  SchoolMation was an Open Source product but has ceased to be unfortunately because of abuse of the GPL license. We are not happy about this but are forced to do it00:18
th1aI wonder what they mean by "abuse of the GPL?"00:24
th1a"People using our product without giving us money?"00:26
algaseriously?  they died because of that?00:32
algafell victim to misunderstood open source advocacy00:33
th1aIt is still available with a commercial license.00:33
th1aAnd they'll do a "shared source" thing on request.00:33
th1aI sent them a query as to what the "abuse" was.00:33
algaTom, there's one more important bit of functionality missing from SB 1.000:44
FarcePesti think the page for 1.0 says they didn't have time to finish it00:44
algaI just think it should be added to the SB 1.1 stories00:46
* bskahan agrees01:05
bskahan"abuse of the GPL" == "Woops, we didn't know someone else could go and sell it"01:06
bskahanspeaking of the GPL01:06
bskahanwill SchoolTool third party applications be required to be GPL01:07
FarcePesti would paste in the relevant section, but i seem to be having trouble with the google cache01:11
FarcePestA number of application pages within SchoolMation Version 2.0 are now encrypted01:12
FarcePestbecause of third-party companies who, before we took these measures, have misused01:12
FarcePestand illegally taken our open source code outside of the scope of the GPL it was issued01:12
FarcePestunder. Some are now trying to inappropriately sell SchoolMation code under their own01:12
FarcePestbrand. Some companies have added functionality of their own while others have not.01:12
FarcePestWe are trying to stop companies such as these from abusing us and it is not our01:12
FarcePestattempt to try and hide code from our valued customers. If you need to change code in01:12
FarcePestthe system then please contact us and we will try as best we can to supply a version to01:12
FarcePestyou that has the pages unencrypted that you need to change. Please do not ask for01:12
FarcePestentire application to be unencrypted, as we cannot do this. We want to empower you01:12
FarcePestas much as we can and obviously we want you to be happy with SchoolMation. Its01:12
FarcePestroots are open source and we will honor this as much as possible as long as we do not01:12
FarcePestleave this new version open to abuse.01:12
FarcePestyeah, sounds like their issue wasn't with adhering to the GPL, it was other people not adhering, and for whatever reason, deciding not to take legal action01:17
algacopyright violation, stricly speaking01:34
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th1aRegardless, if these really are violations of the license or copyright they'd have other legal recourse.02:00
bskahanalso, the old source is still covered by the GPL02:06
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th1aNonetheless, a useful bit of info for the paper I need to finish tonight.02:06
th1aFarcePest:  Thanks for tracking down the longer explanation.02:06
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bskahananother thing that I think is good to target for STC 1.002:32
bskahanmaking the basic find dialog work02:32
bskahanafter 1.0 we probably need a beefier find system02:32
bskahanbut I can't imagine getting "find by Name or Username" is that hard02:33
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* bskahan sees nothing about registering with "Find" in srichter's book though02:44
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ignasour office is a sleepy placde12:32
ignasi wonder why ;)12:32
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* jinty yawns13:37
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bskahanis there any reason has a __used_for__ but GroupAdd and ResourceAdd don't?14:58
ignas2 bugs for you ! :)15:04
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ignasbskahan, isn't __used_for__ just a marker ?15:04
* bskahan nods15:05
ignasadd 2 more :)15:05
bskahanjust wondering if there's a reason we're using it someplaces not others15:05
bskahanI did ;)15:05
ignasand look at the brand new issues in ;)15:05
bskahanI got the mail :-P15:06
* bskahan assigns one to tvon15:06
ignasgot a bug? share it with your friend!15:07
bskahanwell, I had 2, would be impolite not to share, don't want to offend him15:08
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bskahangintas: is that data.fs from schoolbell-server or z3?15:53
bskahanoops, ignas15:53
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th1abska|mobile:  Have you ever seen metric sized paper in the US?  e.g., A4 size?17:11
th1aFor reasons not clear to me this guy in Italy wants me to send him a paper copy of my submission, in A4 size, but I'm not spending my day looking for A4 size paper.17:13
th1aWell, I'll look in one place...17:13
bska|mobileth1a: I'd try office depot/staples17:14
* bska|mobile wouldn't look much further17:14
th1aI'll drive over to Staples.17:14
bska|mobilecall first17:15
bska|mobilesince there's a good chance they don't have it17:15
th1aI was thinking call first, but the phone call might drive me crazy.17:15
* bska|mobile adds metric paper sizes to his "SaneMeasurements" crusade17:15
th1a"A4, it is a size of paper."17:15
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th1aNo, not a color...17:16
th1aPlus, Starbucks next door.17:16
bska|mobileoh, well, in that case17:16
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th1aPlus, can only write papers early in the morning, so I went to sleep at 5:00 AM.17:17
th1aBalances you yesterday's afternoon nap.17:17
bska|mobileMarcus Baines Line17:20
bska|mobilesmall line at 2:4517:22
bska|mobileindicates the current time17:22
bska|mobileonly shows up on the current day17:22
bska|mobilein day and week view17:22
tvonbeen thinking about that sorta thing.  I think to do it well we would need either autorefresh or a js ticker17:22
bska|mobilethat could be cool, but I'm not sure that having it set on load isn't useful17:23
bska|mobileseen some js sliders that could do it17:23
bska|mobilereally slick, would only reload the DOM for the 1 or 2 <div class="hour">s that are affected17:24
bska|mobilegmail style17:25
bska|mobiletvon: got rendering mostly working, except that early events (9am UTC) show up 'appropriately' positioned off the top of the page17:26
bska|mobileand, more exciting, daylight savings time works17:26
tvonbska|mobile: did you pass the modified time to expand?17:27
bska|mobilethe code that figures out the day's range isn't localized17:28
tvonoh, you mean that things before 8am show up in the wrong place?17:28
bska|mobileso the first event is 09:00, the page doesn't know to show that as 04:00 but the event knows its 04:0017:28
* tvon nods17:29
bska|mobileso its positioned at 04:0017:29
bska|mobilerelative to daystart = 08:0017:29
bska|mobilesomewhere around the browser menu bar17:29
tvonthats what they get for scheduling crap so early17:30
* bska|mobile agrees17:30
* bska|mobile removes support for events before 8am local17:31
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bska|mobiletvon: should look at zope.i18n17:35
bska|mobilenot directly useful atm, but good to know17:35
bska|mobileshould have used (should use) that for date/time format17:36
bska|mobilecould change the date/time preferences to short/long rather than cryptic geeky strings17:39
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algath1a: ayt?17:51
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tvonanyone know what 209 is about?18:07
tvoner, 21918:07
tvonthe evolution thing from ignas18:07
tvonah, nm18:08
* bska|mobile nods18:08
algatvon, bska|mobile: when you you plan to start working on schooltool calendar 1.0?18:12
algawhat are we gonna do about code layout etc.18:12
bska|mobilealga: we have some SB 1.1 things that we can do without worrying about StC layout18:14
algabut when do you plan to start SC?18:14
bska|mobilefor StC 1.1 I had some ideas about code layout, but they could be complete cracj18:14
bska|mobilehopefully by monday18:14
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alganext week?18:15
algaI hope same here18:15
bska|mobilepossibly next wednesday, depending on some SB 1.1 things18:15
algaOK, we'll see then18:15
bska|mobileI made an experimental ST source tree that basically lets you run schoolbell as schooltool with a pretty small and
bska|mobileI'm not sure if that's a good starting point or not18:17
bska|mobilebut it uses all the schoolbell objects and views by copying the schoolbell zcml files into the schooltool tree18:18
bska|mobilethen as we diverge from schoolbell we can change the schooltool zcml to refer to schooltool.* ojects and views18:19
algaprobably that's the right way to start18:19
algawe'll need special person and group objects18:19
algato hang stuff on18:19
* bska|mobile nods18:19
algaand a new app object18:19
algabut the schoolbell config might be just included, not copied18:20
bska|mobileI don't know enough about zcml precedence18:21
bska|mobileeg., if we include schoolbell/browser/configure.zcml from schooltool/browser/configure.zcml then want to use a View from for an object from schoolbell.app18:22
bska|mobileassuming we can say that schooltool/app/browser/configure.zcml has precedence18:23
bska|mobilethat would work18:23
* bska|mobile tries timeformat with zope.i18n18:29
bska|mobileit doesn't really work well for US18:29
bska|mobileUS we really only use hh:mm[:ss] and h:mm[:ss] [am|pm]18:30
bska|mobileneither of which is supported by en_US.xml18:30
bska|mobileor, en.xml actually18:31
* tvon returns18:32
tvonwhats it support?18:32
tvoni18n/locales/data/en.xml ?18:35
th1aalga:  I'm back.18:35
bska|mobileit looks like it should18:35
algath1a: what do we want for SC 1.0?18:35
algabasic timetabling?18:35
bska|mobilebut I have it working and it doesn't render what I'd expect from the xml definition18:36
algath1a: what about timetable exceptions?18:36
th1aI think we should get rid of timetable exceptions entirely.18:36
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bska|mobileth1a: even for snowdays, etc18:36
algareally?  as I programmer, I rejoice, but it looks like a needed piece of functionality18:37
th1aHolidays aren't timetable exceptions as such.18:37
algas/as I/as a/18:37
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th1aWell, the larger point is that we need to decide if we're going to express lots of other things as separate events or tied to timetable events.18:38
th1aFor example, if I create an assignment due a certain class period, is that a separate calendar event, or is that somehow directly tied to the timetable?18:38
bska|mobileassigment-due would be an event I think18:39
bska|mobilemaybe with a relationship to the section/section-calendar-event when its due18:40
bska|mobilefrom a UI perspective, it doesn't have to look like its seperate18:40
th1aThat's probably true.18:41
bska|mobileeg., teacher goes to course timetable, create "assignment" for this class period18:41
bska|mobilebut the assignment is some type of event itself18:41
bska|mobilewell, the assignment-due is sometype of event18:42
th1aAnyhow, I think that if we keep the timetable itself static and express exceptions, related events, etc. as calendar events, we and our application will be much saner.18:42
th1aAssume that the use case for the timetable is the same as for the paper timetable you get at the beginning of the year.18:42
th1aYou look at it for the first week or so, then put it away once you know where you're going.18:43
bska|mobiledon't holidays work as exceptions though?18:43
algathere is a schoolday calendar for that18:43
algabut if a teacher is sick, and the lesson is dropped,18:44
algait's an exception18:44
th1a:-0  We don't do that in the US.18:44
th1aWhat do you mean exactly?18:44
bska|mobilethe lesson is reschuled to the next time the teacher is here, or the subsitute 'teaches' it18:45
th1aYeah what?18:46
algathat's a timetable exception18:46
algaif you want to represent the rescheduling properly in the students' calendars, you need it18:46
th1aI don't understand what the necessary behavior is.18:46
alga:-) well, ok then :-)18:47
th1aI've got a 1:00 class on Tuesday and I'm taking a nap, I mean, I'm sick.18:48
th1aWhat's supposed to happen in the timetable?18:48
algathe admin reschedules your lesson to when you're going to be available18:48
algaand that is represented on the student's calendars18:48
algahe "deletes" the particular instance of the tt event18:49
algaand creates a new, ordinary calendar event18:49
th1aSo I'm saying we don't really need to "delete" the original tt event.18:50
algalet it stay there?18:50
algaOK, if you think so.  Makes life a lot easier for us18:51
th1aA lot of this comes down to the question of whether or not we expect a student or teacher to use the timetable overlay as part of their regular view.18:51
th1aIf the timetable view is not going to automatically integrate a variety of up to date info, it is just clutter.18:51
th1aI think we should assume that people won't have it on most of the time.18:52
bska|mobileI'm not sure how much "Assignment", "Test" type stuff we plan on getting into StC18:53
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bska|mobileI would think those things would show on the timeable18:53
th1aThey're events.18:53
bska|mobileevent's in the class calendar18:54
bska|mobilewould the section inherit the timetable?18:54
bska|mobileeg., should the section calendar show every section meeting18:54
th1aThat would just be clutter for the user.18:55
bska|mobileconvient for the teacher, for setting the assignment event time to the section meeting time18:55
th1aWell, we should be able to do that via the UI.18:56
th1aThe only hard part is if we want the assignment event time to change if there is a change in the schedule.18:57
th1aAnd we can easily avoid doing that for a year.18:58
th1aalga:  I still have no clue how the attendance system works, so I'm not sure if timetable exceptions were necessary for that.18:59
algaattendance was not integrated with timetables19:01
algaor was it?19:02
algaI think you could just run a roll call, and the results would be recorded with current time19:03
algaso that the school administration could chase up and account for each case of absence19:04
th1aOK.  That'll probably need to be tightened up a bit, when we get to it.19:04
algawhat d oyou mean by "in a time-based schema, each period's slot is implicit"?19:07
algaperiod names are like "9:00" or "9:00-9:45"?19:08
th1aI noticed that didn't make any sense.19:10
th1aNote that I the chart I sent with the proposal originally was the wrong one.19:10
th1aI sent the right one a minute later.19:11
th1aSorry about that.19:11
th1aLet me resend to make sure you have the right one.19:12
algaI was looking at the simplified one19:15
algathe problem with it is that it mostly represents the steps in the UI19:15
alganot the innards of the system19:15
th1aWell, you guys know how that works, not me ;-)19:15
algafrom what I see, we can use the existing timetabling code, just simplify the views19:16
th1aI don't think we need to change the innards in any obvious way.19:16
algathere's that one wart with day templates mapped by weekday19:16
th1aRight.  I'm not anticipating a major overhaul.19:16
algathat needs to go at some point19:16
th1aDay templates mapped by weekday?19:17
algaremember your use case that all periods are shorter on Wednesdays?19:17
algaday template is a mapping of period id -> time slot19:18
bska|mobiletvon: +1 on the toolbar change19:18
algathat should really be part of the implementation of a timetable model, not in the interface19:19
algaso that people can define their own tt model with their peculiarities19:19
algaand their own views for it too...19:20
th1aThat sounds reasonable.19:20
algathat's a good use case for a demo plugin, btw19:20
th1aI'll still need to be able to set up that schedule for our school here.  As long as I can do that I'll be happy (although I'm assuming it won't be in SC 1.0).19:21
th1aJust keep in mind that a primary goal is making simple schedules simple to create.19:22
th1aAnd hard schedules possible.19:23
algaI had a thought yesterday, that there's too many confusing versions19:23
algaSB 1.0, SC 1.0, ST 0.919:23
algaST 1.019:23
th1aI know...19:23
algaSt. C.19:24
* bska|mobile nods19:25
bska|mobileanything but SC19:25
th1aWarty, Hoary.19:25
algawhat's wrong with SC?19:25
bska|mobileSC, SB, ST19:25
algasystematic :-)19:25
algaSA, SB, SC19:25
alga, ... , ST19:25
bska|mobileeek, we have a way to go19:26
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algath1a: what kind of timetable entry view for the whole school do you want?20:54
algathe same like in 0.9?20:54
th1aTimetable entry view?21:03
th1aWhat does that view do?21:04
algaerm, afaiu you designed it with mgedmin21:04
algathe view to enter the whole school timetable21:05
th1aThe timetable schema?21:05
algano, the actual timetable21:05
algacomputed some other way21:05
th1aWhat does the actual timetable look like?21:06
algaI can't start 0.9 right now21:07
th1aWhat does one do at this view?21:07
algabut that was a view where the school secretary could import the timetable for each teacher, or each group, in some CSV format21:07
th1aOh, ok.21:07
th1aWell, we still need a view to allow an individual student's schedule to be entered (which I know is a foreign concept to you Lithuanians).21:08
algait automatically puts a person into certain groups, right?21:09
th1aThis'll be a little different because we will have the concept of sections and courses in STC 1.0.21:10
algahow do you tell the system when these groups have lessons?21:10
algawhat's a section and what's a coursE?21:11
th1aalga:  I have to go mail this paper to Italy.  bbiab.  We need to work this out at length, either in a half hour or tomorrow sometime.21:12
algathen I suspend work on the proposal for now21:12
bska|mobilealga: a "Course" is something like "First Year Algebra" currently with just a title and description, but eventually with requirements, etc21:15
bska|mobilea "Section" is one meeting group of a "Course"21:15
bska|mobilethe Section is a group, with a calendar, memebers (students and teacher(s))21:16
bska|mobileI haven't figured out where Courses should be stored or how they relate programmatically to Sections21:17
bska|mobilea Course could be a group of sections, but the Course shouldn't really be ICalendarOwner21:18
algathanks, bska|mobile21:23
algawe lacked a lot of terms like that when we were designing the timetabling engine21:23
* bska|mobile pokes th1a 21:24
bska|mobilesoon we'll have a whole glossary21:24
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th1aYeah, yeah...21:53
th1aalga:  Do you want to pick this up now or tomorrow?21:54
th1aTomorrow, apparently.22:07
* bska|mobile notes its 10pm in LT22:08
th1aI'm not complaining.22:08
th1aJust asking.22:09
* bska|mobile is consumed by time differences22:09
th1aI guess I went to bed at noon Lithuania time.22:10
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