| *** tvon has quit IRC | 00:27 | |
| bskahan | that schooltool.com thing is a bit distressing | 00:43 |
|---|---|---|
| th1a | I don't see how they would have a leg to stand on, unless it is ok to ignore trademarks from other contries, which seems highly unlikely. | 00:43 |
| th1a | If so, I'm moving to South Africa and starting a company called Coke-a-cola. | 00:44 |
| th1a | Remember, SchoolTool has existed as a project for a long time. | 00:44 |
| bskahan | yeah, going to have to address this in the near term, I'm pretty sure TM requires active protection | 00:45 |
| th1a | Presumably Mark has lawyers. | 00:45 |
| * bskahan nods | 00:46 | |
| th1a | I would much rather be us than them in this case. | 00:46 |
| bskahan | yeah, the site looks very new | 00:46 |
| th1a | I can't have been around very long. | 00:46 |
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| th1a | I'm a little annoyed that we didn't pick up the address anyhow. | 00:46 |
| bskahan | heh | 00:46 |
| bskahan | etria.net | 00:47 |
| th1a | I guess I can check the wayback machine. | 00:47 |
| bskahan | Record expires on 26-Sep-2012. | 00:47 |
| bskahan | Record created on 22-Sep-2003. | 00:47 |
| bskahan | from whois | 00:47 |
| th1a | I'm assuming that Mark would have done the trademark when he started the project back in SA. Assuming that our assertion of trademark is accurate on our site. | 00:48 |
| th1a | schooltool.com circa 1996: http://web.archive.org/web/19961227005835/http://www.schooltool.com/ | 00:49 |
| bskahan | interesting | 00:49 |
| th1a | Hm... here's 2002 http://web.archive.org/web/20020806193757/http://www.schooltool.com/ | 00:50 |
| th1a | Hm. | 00:51 |
| th1a | Now I'm confused. | 00:51 |
| th1a | No page in 2004. | 00:51 |
| th1a | Weird. | 00:51 |
| bskahan | that page from 2002 lists the (C) as 1996 | 00:52 |
| bskahan | and the design is circa '96 | 00:52 |
| th1a | They do have a (TM). | 00:52 |
| bskahan | not much we can do about it but pass it on to Mark | 00:53 |
| bskahan | it looks like the new site is unrelated to the old site, in everything but url | 00:53 |
| bskahan | the company referred to is different | 00:54 |
| th1a | Ah. | 00:54 |
| th1a | We might have to start saying "SchoolTool.org" more. | 00:54 |
| bskahan | http://www.mindex.com/flash_index.htm | 00:55 |
| bskahan | is the company that developed it | 00:55 |
| th1a | I have to go eat. | 00:55 |
| th1a | ttyl | 00:55 |
| bskahan | ttyl | 00:55 |
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| bskahan | http://www.google.com/search?complete=1&hl=en&q=schooltool&btnG=Google+Search | 00:59 |
| bskahan | we still win google ;) | 00:59 |
| th1a | Yes. | 01:48 |
| th1a | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&q=link%3Awww.schooltool.com&btnG=Search | 01:49 |
| bskahan | interesting mail on the mailing list | 01:56 |
| bskahan | http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=78131769 | 01:56 |
| th1a | That's good. | 01:57 |
| th1a | Looks like we'd better move. | 01:57 |
| th1a | I'll have to call Mark. | 02:03 |
| bskahan | th1a: were you using svn when you noticed "Tomorrow's Events" were wrong? | 07:21 |
| th1a | Oh... I guess not. | 07:21 |
| th1a | I've got both on here. | 07:21 |
| bskahan | I thought it was fixed at some point and seems to work properly here | 07:21 |
| th1a | OK. Never mind. | 07:21 |
| bskahan | cool | 07:22 |
| th1a | bskahan: We'll have to discuss the presentation and travel plans tomorrow. | 07:26 |
| bskahan | yeah, we'll be at the sprints but we'll be online | 07:28 |
| th1a | Ah. Did you go today? | 07:29 |
| bskahan | couldn't today, transportation | 07:29 |
| th1a | What are you planning on doing? | 07:29 |
| bskahan | going to the Zope3 sprint | 07:29 |
| th1a | Good. | 07:30 |
| th1a | Oh... to avoid any awkwardness... I have spoken to Stephan Richter about doing some work this summer. | 07:31 |
| bskahan | cool | 07:31 |
| th1a | I'm not sure how we might split it up, since he'd be just one more person working part time. | 07:31 |
| th1a | We should just be able to add him. | 07:31 |
| th1a | But I didn't want to broach the subject of more help before we got done with SchoolTool Calendar. | 07:32 |
| bskahan | there's alot to cover for HTH in 2006 | 07:32 |
| th1a | I didn't want it to look like I thought we had to just keep adding more and more people. | 07:32 |
| th1a | If we can't write a SIS in a year we suck. | 07:32 |
| bskahan | heh | 07:32 |
| th1a | There's not all that much to it, really. | 07:33 |
| th1a | You, me and Tom could probably do in using Archetypes in six months. | 07:33 |
| bskahan | timetabling, attendance, grade repoorting | 07:34 |
| th1a | We don't really need to do timetabling. | 07:34 |
| th1a | If Jinty gets something together, great, but you and POV aren't going to be working on it. | 07:35 |
| th1a | You know what I'm worried about? | 07:35 |
| th1a | Data migration. | 07:35 |
| bskahan | what are we looking at beyond attendance and reporting? | 07:35 |
| th1a | We'll be importing records for like 3000 students. | 07:36 |
| bskahan | is that one school, or all the HTHs? | 07:36 |
| th1a | That's like four years of all the schools. | 07:36 |
| bskahan | btw, did you see the NY Times article about their SIS collapsing? | 07:36 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 07:37 |
| th1a | Amazing. | 07:37 |
| th1a | Chicago has done that a half dozen times. | 07:37 |
| bskahan | fallen apart at the end of each semester? | 07:37 |
| th1a | Had failed SIS implementations. | 07:38 |
| th1a | As of a couple years ago they had a mainframe from the 60's running things. | 07:38 |
| th1a | It is the only thing that has ever worked. | 07:38 |
| bskahan | that's scary | 07:38 |
| th1a | Anyhow. HTH just needs the basics. Grades, attendance, demographics... | 07:39 |
| th1a | They've never gotten PowerSchool's online gradebook working for them, so they use the desktop gradebook, which of course is a nightmare, reliability-wise. | 07:40 |
| th1a | They should be happy to keep their grades on the server. | 07:40 |
| bskahan | Baltimore uses scantron sheets for attendance, so twice a day they have to be manually collected from all the classrooms | 07:41 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 07:41 |
| th1a | I want to hack together an attendance app on a Nokia phone. | 07:41 |
| bskahan | heh | 07:42 |
| th1a | I've got a connection for a free N-Gage. | 07:42 |
| th1a | I think he's giving a talk at PyCon, too. | 07:42 |
| th1a | It is pretty cool. | 07:43 |
| th1a | Get an interactive prompt via bluetooth. | 07:43 |
| bskahan | some sort of awkward marriage of space invaders and an attendance app | 07:43 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 07:43 |
| th1a | One thing that drove Joanna crazy is that PowerSchool will absolutely not let you make a report card more than one page. | 07:44 |
| bskahan | that's a wierd limitation | 07:44 |
| th1a | So everyone's comments have to be limited. | 07:44 |
| th1a | Their page layout engine is TERRIBLE. | 07:45 |
| th1a | You really have to have Crystal Reports to use PowerSchool, in my opinion. | 07:45 |
| bskahan | Crystal Reports looks very intimidating from the screenshots | 07:46 |
| th1a | So does Zope 3 ;-) | 07:48 |
| bskahan | you have a point | 07:51 |
| bskahan | I'm off to bed | 07:51 |
| th1a | Good night. | 07:51 |
| bskahan | gnite | 07:51 |
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| th1a | Good morning from Jetlag Central. | 17:17 |
| tvon | Good morning | 17:18 |
| tvon | Brian is sitting in on the CanDo sprint | 17:21 |
| th1a | Cool. | 17:21 |
| mgedmin | good evening | 17:21 |
| tvon | howdy | 17:22 |
| tvon | bskahan and I will need to cut out of the meeting 15 mins early | 17:22 |
| th1a | OK. | 17:22 |
| bska|mobile | th1a: what did we decide a "Class" is called (ex. Biology II) | 17:38 |
| th1a | Right now, Biology II would be a course. | 17:38 |
| bska|mobile | thanks | 17:38 |
| th1a | An instance of Biology II would be a section. | 17:38 |
| th1a | But the course of study described by the title "Biology II" is a course. | 17:39 |
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| bska|mobile | morning/afternoon/evening all | 17:56 |
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| tvon | Howdy | 17:59 |
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| th1a | How's the wifi at PyCon? | 18:00 |
| tvon | it just flickered, but otherwise I think it's okay | 18:00 |
| tvon | Someone is "taking care of it" as I understand it | 18:00 |
| th1a | We just lost jinty and mgedmin. | 18:00 |
| th1a | Give 'em a minute, then we'll start. | 18:01 |
| tvon | You can't blame pycon wifi for that :) | 18:01 |
| tvon | No problem | 18:02 |
| th1a | I know. | 18:02 |
| tvon | th1a: are you hyped up for pycon? | 18:03 |
| tvon | or are you con'd out? | 18:03 |
| th1a | I think I'm on an even keel. | 18:03 |
| th1a | The San Diego trip was successful overall, so I'm feeling good. | 18:03 |
| alga | Attending any sprints? | 18:03 |
| tvon | speaking of which, we could hit some tomorrow but it depends on what kind of luggage you are brining | 18:04 |
| bska|mobile | alga: at the CanDo sprint right now | 18:04 |
| alga | what's CanDo? | 18:04 |
| th1a | bskahan and I are attending a "finish your PyCon presentation" sprint. | 18:04 |
| alga | hehe | 18:04 |
| tvon | heh, should stick that on the wiki | 18:04 |
| alga | that's always the most popular one | 18:04 |
| bska|mobile | they're focused on making an SQL backed system though | 18:05 |
| bska|mobile | the actual uses they're talking about is right in the ST application space | 18:05 |
| th1a | bska|mobile: is talking about CanDo. | 18:05 |
| bska|mobile | yes | 18:06 |
| bska|mobile | an interesting conversation about defining Courses, Compentencies, etc | 18:06 |
| th1a | http://cando.sourceforge.net/ | 18:06 |
| th1a | OK. Let's get going. | 18:07 |
| bska|mobile | ok | 18:07 |
| tvon | ok | 18:07 |
| th1a | alga: Congratulations on the birth of your son. | 18:07 |
| bska|mobile | yeah! | 18:07 |
| alga | thank you! | 18:07 |
| tvon | yeah | 18:07 |
| alga | today I brought them home from the hospital | 18:07 |
| *** jinty has joined #schooltool | 18:07 | |
| jinty | hey all | 18:08 |
| th1a | OK, Etria. Give us an update. | 18:08 |
| alga | hi jinty | 18:08 |
| th1a | jinty: hi. | 18:09 |
| bska|mobile | I committed timezone awareness last night | 18:09 |
| bska|mobile | it doesn't change the UI at all, but now all events are aware instead of naive | 18:09 |
| tvon | I'll be committing allday events soon, perhaps tomorrow while bskahan and th1a get the presentation together | 18:09 |
| bska|mobile | so we can use astimezone() and utcoffset methods | 18:09 |
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| tvon | I need to figure out how I can deal with tz info first | 18:10 |
| mgedmin | <tap> <tap> is this thing on? | 18:10 |
| th1a | mgedmin; hi. | 18:10 |
| mgedmin | my IRC client went deaf 15 minutes ago | 18:10 |
| bska|mobile | mgedmin: hey | 18:10 |
| alga | hi mgedmin | 18:10 |
| mgedmin | I was wondering why you didn't start the meeting on time | 18:10 |
| jinty | congrats alga!!! | 18:10 |
| * jinty too | 18:10 | |
| alga | thanks | 18:10 |
| alga | we were waiting for you | 18:10 |
| th1a | Anything else need to be done for the current Etria contract (after tz and all day events)? | 18:11 |
| bska|mobile | don't believe so | 18:12 |
| th1a | OK. POV? | 18:12 |
| alga | I and Ignas are working on the RESTive views | 18:13 |
| alga | slowly | 18:13 |
| th1a | When do you expect to be done with that? | 18:13 |
| alga | I'm out of office since Thursday so I'm a bit out of date | 18:14 |
| th1a | ignas_ ? | 18:14 |
| mgedmin | ignas is sick today | 18:14 |
| mgedmin | he was working on RESTive views on Friday | 18:14 |
| th1a | OK. | 18:14 |
| * tvon discoveres he is sitting at the Twisted table | 18:15 | |
| bska|mobile | run! | 18:15 |
| tvon | heh | 18:15 |
| bska|mobile | ;) | 18:15 |
| th1a | So we need to shoot for making up plans for the next contract this week. | 18:15 |
| th1a | Correct? | 18:15 |
| bska|mobile | yes | 18:16 |
| tvon | Sounds right. | 18:16 |
| th1a | OK. | 18:16 |
| bska|mobile | start them next monday? | 18:16 |
| bska|mobile | meaning, finalize stories, start work on them monday | 18:16 |
| th1a | Ideally. If ignas is sick and alga is being paternal, I understand. | 18:16 |
| * bska|mobile nods | 18:17 | |
| th1a | bska|mobile: yes. | 18:17 |
| th1a | OK. In case you didn't get the picture from my email, High Tech High seems to be on board and I'm pretty damn excited about it. | 18:18 |
| tvon | Indeed, that's great news | 18:18 |
| * mgedmin has a _huge_ schooltool email backlog, including all the new wonderful checkins :-/ | 18:18 | |
| th1a | Also, the big US ed-tech conference is in San Diego next July. HTH will be getting a ton of attention right when they're migrating to SchoolTool, so that's also a potential pr coup. | 18:19 |
| tvon | nice | 18:19 |
| jinty | sounds like things are starting to roll | 18:19 |
| * th1a has begun to wonder if it would be possibly to fly Mark to San Diego to give a keynote. | 18:20 | |
| tvon | that would be great | 18:20 |
| bska|mobile | that works out well | 18:20 |
| th1a | Moving on... back to an old favorite. How is SchoolTool going to relate to SchoolBell? | 18:20 |
| * bska|mobile would love to know by wednesday | 18:21 | |
| th1a | :-) | 18:21 |
| th1a | mgedmin: Thoughts? | 18:21 |
| * mgedmin not sure what to say | 18:22 | |
| * jinty was under the impression that schoolbell is a completely separate program whose modules are used by schooltool | 18:22 | |
| mgedmin | schooltool will depend on the schoolbell.calendar and schoolbell.relationship libraries | 18:22 |
| mgedmin | perhaps schooltool will also depend on bits within schoolbell.app, but perhaps not | 18:22 |
| tvon | schooltool will import and 'tweak' the schoolbell classes.. for the most part. right? | 18:22 |
| bska|mobile | there's more generic question of how 'external application that may or may not be schoolbell' relate to schooltool | 18:23 |
| tvon | well, I guess cal/event wont really need tweaking | 18:23 |
| mgedmin | bska|mobile, schoolbell is pretty special | 18:24 |
| tvon | I don't think there is currently any plan for allowing 3-rd party apps to incorporate into ST | 18:24 |
| mgedmin | schooltool depends on things from schoolbell | 18:24 |
| mgedmin | well, will depend, anyway | 18:24 |
| * bska|mobile nods | 18:24 | |
| alga | like calendars and their views? | 18:25 |
| jinty | One point of dependencies is which version of schoolbell schooltool depends on. | 18:25 |
| bska|mobile | hopefully 1.1 | 18:25 |
| th1a | So our objective with the "SchoolTool Calendar" release is to get it out quickly and have it be useful as a calendar server, not necessarily an open ended framework. | 18:25 |
| bska|mobile | what features should schooltool calendar have beyond schoolbell | 18:26 |
| tvon | How much ST do we want in it? | 18:26 |
| th1a | Just the parts you need to do calendaring in a school. | 18:26 |
| th1a | Set up the tt schema | 18:27 |
| th1a | terms | 18:27 |
| th1a | create classes | 18:27 |
| th1a | add students | 18:27 |
| mgedmin | th1a, does that mean recursive groups and facets, but not absence handling? | 18:27 |
| th1a | No recursive groups | 18:27 |
| th1a | Well... | 18:27 |
| mgedmin | (err, facets won't be recursive of course) | 18:27 |
| bska|mobile | no dynamic pseron info? | 18:28 |
| th1a | We'll have to work it out in a little more detail, but I think we can get away without recursive groups, facets if we want to, and definitely not person info. | 18:28 |
| th1a | I want to put out a straightforward calendar server. | 18:29 |
| th1a | Something people can actually use while we spend the next year writing a student information system. | 18:29 |
| bska|mobile | schoolbell with "Courses", "Teachers", and "Students" exposed in the UI | 18:29 |
| th1a | Yeah. And timetables. | 18:30 |
| bska|mobile | er., Courses, Sections, Teachers, Students, Timetables | 18:30 |
| th1a | That's a big piece in itself. | 18:30 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 18:30 |
| bska|mobile | anything beyond that? | 18:30 |
| th1a | Display the calendars by period. | 18:30 |
| th1a | It seems like SchoolTool Calendar will be 100% of SchoolBell plus some extra stuff. | 18:32 |
| * jinty hopes that Zope 3.1 releases soon... | 18:33 | |
| th1a | Then after we do that, we'll start on SchoolTool proper, which may be a little more of a do-over, in terms of formally creating the extensible platform of SchoolTool. | 18:34 |
| th1a | Does that sound about right? | 18:34 |
| bska|mobile | schooltool will inherit most of schoolbell, but won't really involve changes to schoolbell itself, correct? | 18:35 |
| th1a | I think so. | 18:37 |
| th1a | Think it won't. | 18:37 |
| bska|mobile | ok | 18:37 |
| tvon | thats how I understand it | 18:37 |
| * th1a imagines the Lithuanians sighing and shaking their heads. | 18:37 | |
| tvon | haha | 18:38 |
| gintas | well, it is an advantage that we control both SchoolBell and SchoolTool | 18:38 |
| * mgedmin is sighing, but not shaking his head ;) | 18:38 | |
| gintas | we can add hooks to SchoolBell when we need them for SchoolTool | 18:38 |
| th1a | Hooks? | 18:39 |
| alga | callbacks for extension | 18:39 |
| mgedmin | as a proponent of agile development methods, I would like to reserve the option to gradually change the global architectural decisions if we find them lacking | 18:39 |
| mgedmin | wow, that sounded impressive | 18:39 |
| th1a | Sure. | 18:40 |
| * jinty was impressed | 18:40 | |
| bska|mobile | heh | 18:40 |
| th1a | So, in the short term, what do we need to do to the repository to work on SchoolTool Calendar? | 18:40 |
| alga | hehe | 18:40 |
| mgedmin | good question | 18:41 |
| alga | that's just laziness :-) | 18:41 |
| bska|mobile | I'm sorry folks, we have to go | 18:41 |
| jinty | everyone install the current libschoolbell package ;) | 18:41 |
| tvon | I'm with bskahan | 18:41 |
| tvon | part of the we | 18:41 |
| mgedmin | see you then | 18:41 |
| gintas | see you | 18:41 |
| bska|mobile | we'll try to catch up with tom in just over an hour and 30 | 18:41 |
| bska|mobile | ttyl | 18:42 |
| alga | bye | 18:42 |
| th1a | OK. ttyl. | 18:42 |
| tvon | Toodles. We'll check the backlogs and whatnot... ;) | 18:42 |
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| * tvon tips his hat | 18:42 | |
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| mgedmin | I liked the way we worked on schoolbell: we started from an empty package, quickly got something working in zope 3, and then built on top of that | 18:42 |
| th1a | Let me backtrack a bit... | 18:42 |
| mgedmin | perhaps we can svn rm /trunk/schooltool/src/schooltool (leave it only in the 0.9 branch) and then quickly create a new src/schooltool/app with a main.py that imports things from schoolbell | 18:43 |
| mgedmin | and then gradually build on top of that | 18:43 |
| th1a | Do you think we'll need to put out a quick "SchoolTool Calendar" and then hit reset for SchoolTool proper? | 18:43 |
| mgedmin | th1a, I don't understand your question | 18:44 |
| th1a | OK. It is an important one. | 18:44 |
| th1a | Give me a sec. | 18:45 |
| * mgedmin hands th1a two secs | 18:45 | |
| alga | src/schooltool | 18:46 |
| alga | not app | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | symmetry with schoolbell | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | schoolbell.calendar | 18:46 |
| alga | feh | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | schoolbell.relationship | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | schoolbell.app | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | schooltool.timetabling | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | schooltool.absences | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | schooltool.whatever | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | schooltool.app | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | otoh maybe not | 18:46 |
| alga | from schoolbell.app.app import SchoolbellApp | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | schooltool is not supposed to be a collection of reusable zope 3 libraries that schoolbell is | 18:46 |
| alga | yes | 18:47 |
| mgedmin | I concede the point | 18:47 |
| * alga goes to dict concede | 18:47 | |
| * mgedmin does likewise, to make sure he used the proper word | 18:47 | |
| th1a | You did. | 18:47 |
| alga | From English-Turkish FreeDict Dictionary [eng-tur]: | 18:48 |
| alga | concede | 18:48 |
| alga | 18:48 | |
| alga | 1. teslim etmek, kabul etmek, ikrar etmek | 18:48 |
| alga | 2. vermek, bırakmak, ihsan etmek. | 18:48 |
| alga | :) | 18:48 |
| alga | Probably I have too many freedict dictionaries | 18:48 |
| mgedmin | You do | 18:48 |
| th1a | ping. | 18:49 |
| th1a | Thought I had gone dead there for a minute. | 18:49 |
| mgedmin | pong. | 18:49 |
| th1a | I think that what I was thinking is wrong and since nobody else seems to have been thinking the same thing at all, it is easier to not try to explain it. | 18:50 |
| gintas | well, we still need to decide on a common vision | 18:51 |
| th1a | So do we agree on mgedmin's idea for the source tree and rebuilding from scratch? | 18:51 |
| * mgedmin agrees | 18:52 | |
| gintas | well, it makes sense | 18:52 |
| gintas | especially if we want to use parts from schoolbell | 18:52 |
| gintas | %s/well, // | 18:52 |
| alga | yes | 18:52 |
| alga | we're abandoning schooltool we have | 18:53 |
| th1a | Initially, we'll use almost all of SchoolBell. | 18:53 |
| alga | +1 | 18:53 |
| mgedmin | I find "making way for the new schooltool" a better-sounding phrase than "rebuilding from scratch" | 18:53 |
| th1a | We'll be porting over much of it. | 18:53 |
| th1a | Much of the old one. | 18:53 |
| mgedmin | same as we did for schoolbell | 18:53 |
| th1a | Yes. | 18:53 |
| th1a | So one remaining question mark in my mind is when we start adding the extensibility to SchoolTool. | 18:54 |
| th1a | Or documenting it. | 18:54 |
| alga | hm | 18:54 |
| alga | to tell the truth, we never really had it | 18:55 |
| th1a | Right. | 18:55 |
| gintas | this might be hard as long as we don't have real-world extensions | 18:57 |
| alga | the agile way would be to not think of that until we need it | 18:57 |
| gintas | doesn't that make it a chicken-and-egg problem then? | 18:57 |
| alga | no | 18:57 |
| gintas | perhaps we should try implementing some functionality as extensions | 18:58 |
| alga | we will have to do a proof-of-concept extension | 18:58 |
| th1a | Well, perhaps we should be doing, say, the timetable part as an extension. | 18:58 |
| th1a | Because that's something that a school might want to replace. | 18:58 |
| th1a | If they've got some kind of schedule that is still wackier than what we can imagine. | 18:58 |
| mgedmin | I agree that we should try it | 18:59 |
| th1a | OK. Mull that over. | 19:00 |
| th1a | That idiom might not be in dict. | 19:01 |
| gintas | it is, but it references 'cogitate' and 'ruminate' | 19:01 |
| th1a | Yes. Ruminate. | 19:02 |
| th1a | Do you know what ruminate means? | 19:02 |
| th1a | I think it is latinate. | 19:02 |
| th1a | akin to ructare to belch | 19:03 |
| th1a | to chew the cuds | 19:04 |
| jinty | mooo | 19:04 |
| th1a | OK. Class dismissed. | 19:07 |
| * gintas throws a paper airplane | 19:11 | |
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| jinty | was the schooltool from way back when based on zope 2 or 3? | 21:17 |
| th1a | J2EE, mofo. | 21:19 |
| th1a | It as entirely different. | 21:20 |
| th1a | was | 21:20 |
| th1a | jinty: see http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:KW5yY0SpVqwJ:gd.tuwien.ac.at/opsys/linux/sourceforge/s/schooltool/schooltool_arch_eval_1.1.pdf+java+schooltool+usability+j2ee+&hl=en&client=firefox-a for example. | 21:26 |
| th1a | Ah. Here are the old java docs: http://www.docjar.com/docs/api/org/schooltool/overview-summary.html | 21:27 |
| jinty | I mean the one just before we started ripping out all the plumbing | 21:31 |
| jinty | "way back when" = a few months | 21:31 |
| mgedmin | no zope 2 in sight | 21:31 |
| th1a | Oh. From a couple months ago? It had Zope 3 interfaces and a couple other Zope 3 bits, I think. | 21:32 |
| mgedmin | libraries that usually came with zope 3 + twisted | 21:32 |
| th1a | No Zope 2. | 21:32 |
| jinty | Thanks! | 21:37 |
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| th1a | tvon: It seems that the new timezone stuff breaks compatibility with the previous database. | 22:36 |
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| tvon | th1a: yeah | 22:39 |
| th1a | Do we need a new generation for that? | 22:40 |
| tvon | hrm... yes, I believe so but I'm not sure on my understanding of generations.. any sort of required object changes (migration) needs a new generation, correct? | 22:40 |
| mgedmin | yes | 22:41 |
| tvon | is this something we should do now for tz or wait till 1.1. is more complete? | 22:41 |
| th1a | Something like that. I'm not sure if we want to bundle all the changes for a given release into one generation. | 22:41 |
| tvon | ah | 22:42 |
| tvon | I was thinking of it as something to be bundled | 22:42 |
| bska|mobile | the impression I got from alga's change to generations was that each break should add a generation | 22:43 |
| bska|mobile | but maybe I misunderstood | 22:44 |
| th1a | mgedmin has blog post on generations. | 22:44 |
| bska|mobile | th1a: would a weblog sort of object that could be associated with a section (sort of a poor man's assignment list) serve as a decent proof-of-concept 3rd party extension? | 22:45 |
| mgedmin | bska|mobile, "should", yes, "must" no | 22:45 |
| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 22:45 | |
| bska|mobile | well, that was final | 22:45 |
| bska|mobile | ;) | 22:45 |
| th1a | I think notes definitely could be refactored as an exension. | 22:46 |
| bska|mobile | the suck thing about moving from naive to aware times is that its all immutable, the generation basically has to create new copies of every event | 22:47 |
| th1a | Also, timetables could be an extension, because we'd ideally want someone to be able to swap in a bizarro timetable we can't account for. | 22:47 |
| bska|mobile | notes is a better candidate for proof of concept | 22:48 |
| th1a | Well, if you don't want to deal with that kind of thing, you might be able to get a job as a mail carrier ;-) | 22:48 |
| bska|mobile | heh | 22:48 |
| th1a | Notes is more straightforward. | 22:48 |
| th1a | There's still a question about whether we should just try a proof of concept or redo most of it as extensions. | 22:52 |
| bska|mobile | I very pro having the schooltool package as small as possible and most thing implemented as components | 22:53 |
| th1a | Me too. | 22:54 |
| bska|mobile | it seems like longterm, that model would be more adaptable to a huge variety of schoolsystem | 22:54 |
| th1a | If it won't cost us more than a couple weeks I'd like to start that now. | 22:54 |
| *** SteveA has quit IRC | 22:55 | |
| bska|mobile | the other benefit is getting to the "platform" stage, where projects like CanDo could easily consider ST as a target platform | 22:55 |
| tvon | If I'm Joe 3rd Party and I want to develop a calendar app very similar to but slightly different than schoolbell.. say I want to add RSS feeds or blogs for the persons or something... how would I do this? | 22:58 |
| tvon | create my own product, toss in some adapters? import schoolbell.app and override what I needed too? | 22:58 |
| * tvon tries to kick mgedmin and whiffs | 23:00 | |
| th1a | Right now, you'd hack SchoolBell. | 23:02 |
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| tvon | hrm... I thought it would be somehow possible without doing that | 23:04 |
| th1a | Maybe it is. I don't really know. | 23:04 |
| th1a | Well, you'd have to hack it into the templates. | 23:04 |
| th1a | You might be able to do the rest with Zope3-fu. | 23:05 |
| * tvon needs join/part messages back | 23:05 | |
| *** mgedmin has joined #schooltool | 23:06 | |
| tvon | that was totally a mgedmin question | 23:06 |
| bska|mobile | its not possible currently | 23:07 |
| th1a | Anyhow, I just got this message from an IE user: Day view now looks great. All the other views are still at the bottom of the screen. No rush... just letting you know for your few Windows friends. | 23:07 |
| tvon | hrm, okay | 23:07 |
| th1a | Do you know what she's talking about? | 23:07 |
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| th1a | Basically the calendar is shifted below the sidebar. | 23:08 |
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| *** mgedmin is now known as mg|gprs | 23:08 | |
| mg|gprs | generations: | 23:09 |
| mg|gprs | one strategy is to always bump the generation script and write an evolve script whenever you change the database schema | 23:09 |
| mg|gprs | and do it in the same checkin that changes the schema | 23:09 |
| mg|gprs | this is one extreme and probably not very practical | 23:10 |
| mg|gprs | another extreme is to bump the generation number and write an evolve script just before a release | 23:10 |
| mg|gprs | I think the best solution is somewhere in the middle | 23:10 |
| mg|gprs | group related changes and write one evolve script for them | 23:10 |
| mg|gprs | that way you get maybe 5-10 generations per release | 23:11 |
| mg|gprs | I think it is important to write an evolve script as soon as you change the database schema | 23:11 |
| mg|gprs | then you won't forget | 23:11 |
| mg|gprs | if you modify an existing evolve script, that's a sign that some developer's sandboxes might break | 23:12 |
| bska|mobile | that makes sense | 23:12 |
| mg|gprs | that's not too big a deal, but it might be nice to send a warning to the mailing list | 23:12 |
| mg|gprs | you can make some changes to the schema that do not require an evolve script | 23:12 |
| mg|gprs | e.g. you can always add a class attribute | 23:12 |
| mg|gprs | (assuming that its value is immutable!) | 23:12 |
| * mg|gprs over | 23:13 | |
| mg|gprs | (xchat froze, so I started irssi... looks nice, but assumes I use a black background and colours nicks as white on white ;) | 23:13 |
| tvon | light background themes are rare for irssi | 23:15 |
| bska|mobile | * agrees | 23:15 |
| tvon | perhaps /set theme colorless | 23:16 |
| mg|gprs | hmm, messages from me are still in white | 23:17 |
| mg|gprs | ah, old messages | 23:17 |
| mg|gprs | not new ones | 23:17 |
| tvon | mg|gprs: via zope3 voodoo, is it possible to create a zope app that just extens SB a little bit without actually hacking on SB itself? | 23:21 |
| tvon | maybe via adapters or just importing schoolbell and tweaking some things? | 23:22 |
| mg|gprs | yes | 23:22 |
| mg|gprs | we actually do this for a zope 3 product of ours | 23:22 |
| tvon | ah, lovely | 23:22 |
| mg|gprs | it gets somewhat nasty soon, though, if you need to change things that weren't designed to be changed | 23:23 |
| tvon | well, for example could I add person information of some sort ( a new field), or perhaps add the ability for some content type to be added/attached to persons (like a blog)? | 23:23 |
| mg|gprs | attaching a content type is simple | 23:24 |
| mg|gprs | you register new views and a menu item | 23:25 |
| mg|gprs | adding a field to an existing form is more difficuly | 23:25 |
| mg|gprs | you might need to replace the existing view | 23:25 |
| tvon | how about slapping on an adapter for whatever reason? | 23:26 |
| bska|mobile | to do what? | 23:27 |
| tvon | oh, you know... whatever | 23:27 |
| mg|gprs | oh, slapping on an adapter is easy | 23:28 |
| tvon | just curious if I can add an adapter to a project just by importing it..basically | 23:28 |
| tvon | cool | 23:28 |
| mg|gprs | if we want to make schooltool/bell extensible | 23:29 |
| mg|gprs | we should take a look at zope 3 pagelets | 23:29 |
| th1a | I didn't know such things existed. | 23:29 |
| th1a | Are they in the trunk? | 23:29 |
| mg|gprs | they're like menu items, but instead of just a title and url, you can register many snippets of page templates (with associated views) for a single slot | 23:30 |
| mg|gprs | they are in zope 3 trunk | 23:30 |
| mg|gprs | check you the Boston skin | 23:30 |
| mg|gprs | it uses pagelets | 23:30 |
| mg|gprs | http://localhost:8080/++skin++Boston on a Zope 3 instance | 23:30 |
| * mg|gprs reads http://www.python.org/pycon/2005/papers/29/pycon-2005-events.html | 23:31 | |
| th1a | So you see, the question in my mind is whether or not we should ignore this stuff and knock SchoolBell Calendar out the door as fast as possible, try to get all this platform stuff right first, or some combination of the two. | 23:34 |
| bska|mobile | mg|gprs: that paper has the best explanation of adapters I've seen yet | 23:35 |
| bska|mobile | I think schoolbell calendar is a solid calendar app that wouldn't be improved drastically by a quick ST-Calendar release | 23:36 |
| th1a | Unless you're a school. | 23:36 |
| bska|mobile | would schooltool-calendar be a different package/release path than schooltool? | 23:37 |
| th1a | In my mind, yes. | 23:37 |
| th1a | SchoolTool calendar needs to come out mid-May at the absolute latest. | 23:38 |
| th1a | After that, we have until September to straighten out pagelets, extensibility, etc. | 23:38 |
| th1a | And knock together a demo gradebook, etc. | 23:38 |
| bska|mobile | so schooltool calendar could theoretically be the calendar module for schooltool rather than schoolbell being the module | 23:39 |
| th1a | The main thing is that we want schools to use SchoolTool Calendar in their schools next year, without worrying about adding stuff to it. | 23:40 |
| th1a | I want to put it out and keep it more or less stable. | 23:40 |
| mg|gprs | th1a: it is very good that you say things like that | 23:42 |
| mg|gprs | a clearly defined goal helps | 23:42 |
| th1a | I feel like I've said it many times, but it hasn't sunk in. | 23:42 |
| mg|gprs | the bit about schools using ST Calendar next year didn't sink in | 23:43 |
| th1a | OK. | 23:43 |
| th1a | The goal is for schools to use ST Calendar for a full year with few if any changes, then move to the "full" ST in the spring or summer of 2006. | 23:46 |
| bska|mobile | then schooltool calendar makes sense | 23:47 |
| th1a | OK. | 23:47 |
| th1a | I'm leaning more toward ignoring extensibility and getting it out the door asap. | 23:48 |
| bska|mobile | ok, then the list we came up with in the meeting makes sense | 23:51 |
| th1a | The scales fall from their eyes. | 23:51 |
| bska|mobile | +1 on moving to a new package (from the IRC logs) | 23:52 |
| th1a | So where am I staying in Baltimore. What do I need to bring? | 23:53 |
| bska|mobile | Futon ok? | 23:53 |
| th1a | Yes. | 23:56 |
| bska|mobile | then you shouldn't really need to bring anything | 23:56 |
| th1a | Where am I staying? | 23:57 |
| bska|mobile | with Tom & me | 23:58 |
| bska|mobile | was my understanding | 23:58 |
| mg|gprs | good night | 23:59 |
| *** mg|gprs has quit IRC | 23:59 | |
| tvon | night | 23:59 |
| th1a | Ah. I didn't realize you guys live together. | 23:59 |
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