IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2005-03-09

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bskahananyone know hoary's release date?02:43
th1aThere's a wiki...02:43
* bskahan goes to look02:43
bskahanfound it, thanks02:45
bskahanI had a sudden fear that they were releasing the same day as gnome again02:45
bskahanthe final release date is 2005-04-0602:47
th1aWe just need to make sure that SchoolBell 1.1 is ready at the proper time to get into... whatever comes after Hoary.02:48
tvonGrumpy Groundhog02:48
bskahanwe may be at 1.2 at that point02:48
th1aHm.  I hope 1.2 will be a community release.02:49
bskahanwhat's that?02:49
tvon4 months ish02:49
th1aWe'll be moving on.02:49
* bskahan nods02:49
bskahanI just meant that 1.1 probably could be released in a few weeks with things that didn't get into 1.002:50
th1aYeah.  But we won't be adding any features beyond that beyond what we do for SchoolTool that happens to apply.02:51
bskahanthat makes sense02:51
th1aI guess things like importing lists of users will probably go into SchoolBell.02:52
th1a"exporting FreeBusy" refers to Outlook, right?02:58
tvonftest debugging stinks03:04
tvonth1a: what context? Evo can export free/busy as well03:05
th1aI mean, does that refer to the format used by Outlook?03:05
tvonI think its the only format outlook can read off a site, but it's not outlook specific03:06
th1aWell... in reference to SchoolBell, we're talking about that format, right?03:07
th1aWe're not talking about some other kind of freebusy.03:07
th1aOK :-)03:08
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bskahanfreebusy is another piece of the iCal standard too03:12
bskahan4 lines of ZCML and you could try it ;)03:13
bskahannow to just figure out _which_ 4 lines03:13
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th1atvon:  Do you guys need more work now?08:16
th1abskahan:  Do you guys need more work now?08:17
bskahanth1a: not at the moment, we have to finish allday events and TZ08:31
th1aOK.  I just saw that tvon sent me an invoice.  I wasn't sure what that signified.08:32
bskahanall day events is going well, TZ is turning out to be a deeper problem than expected08:32
bskahanwe should have sent that weeks ago, sorry about that08:32
th1aI'm afraid thats the nature of TZ.  Why SteveA warned us away from it.08:32
th1aNo problem.08:32
bskahancan you look over preferences and notes to make sure they fit the stories?08:33
th1aTomorrow I shall.08:39
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mgedminwho gets emails addressed to
mgedmin(besides myself)12:05
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* mgedmin thinks all-day events are more difficult than tz16:18
mgedminactually, the combination of all-day events + timezones is difficult16:18
mgedmine.g. an all day event on Thursday should not magically jump to Friday if you happen to be in a different timezone16:19
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tvonI have a thought on improving the day view UI17:11
tvonshort version, stick the calendar area in a scrolling div17:12
tvoner...wait, nevermind17:12
tvonwe need a day-start preference I think17:14
tvonfor the hour a day starts on17:14
mgedminI have a though on improving calendar overlay selection17:14
mgedmininstead of a multiselection list17:14
mgedminuse a lot of checkboxes17:14
mgedminput them in a div with a limited max height17:15
mgedminset overflow: scrollbar17:15
mgedminor however that is spelled in css17:15
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tvon|x31multiselection does stink in general17:18
mgedminotoh multiselect listbox lets me shift+click to select all calendars17:20
mgedminnot sure this one feature is worth the pain multiselect causes in other respects17:21
tvon|x31we need a new widget :)17:21
tvon|x31what do you think we should do when rendering events that span across days?  not all-day, but something with duration that kicks it to the next day17:23
tvon|x31if we render it from 00:00 -> end on the ending day it will screw the day view UI17:23
mgedminI think that's just fine17:25
mgedminby the way, if you have a long event (say a conference that lasts 3 days)17:25
mgedminI think you should have a 1-day long all-day event that repeats for 3 days17:25
mgedminotoh never mind, all day events will anyway be just a little box on the top of the daily view17:26
mgedminthey won't influence visible hours in any way17:26
tvon|x31thats what I was thinking (eg PyCon), but I think the "right" way to schedule that would be a recurring event from start-end of the conference17:26
tvon|x31eg, 10am - 7pm x 3 days17:26
tvon|x31but, there are things that go overnight I suppose, like camping trips or something17:27
tvon|x31I get confused as to what should be all-day and what should just be really long17:27
tvon|x31if I go on vacation over a weekend, leaving early on friday and getting back late on monday there are no all-day events in there.. it is one event from 3pm Friday to 2pm Monday17:28
tvon|x31Does that make sense?17:28
mgedminI've never had a vacation that started or ended in the middle of a day17:29
mgedminI'd have a vacation say from Jan 15 to Jan 2217:29
mgedminmaybe I'll also have a short event starting Jan 15 17:00 "Flight to Cape Town"17:30
tvon|x31yeah, I think that is the common situation17:30
mgedminand another on Jan 21 07:00 "flight back"17:30
tvon|x31yours I mean17:30
mgedminIOW, I think that 99.9% of events will have duration < 24 hours17:30
th1aCertainly you'll have some things that stretch from one day to another.17:30
tvon|x31parties :)17:30
th1aBut generally, I'd think that it is going to be ugly in any calendar app if you simply create, say, a 36 hour event.17:31
th1aIt should work, but it is probably always going to be a little dubious, just from a layout point of view.17:31
* mgedmin pauses for a moment17:31
mgedminhow about this: "when in doubt, look at how apple's iCal handles this situation"17:32
th1aThat's sorta what I'm doing.17:32
mgedminApple has a good reputation on UI design17:32
* tvon|x31 still holds a grudge for iTunes17:33
tvon|x31but yeah17:33
th1aOK... firing up iCal...17:33
mgedminiTunes can't send audio to an esd server, bad iTunes17:34
th1aIt doesn't encourage you to extend an event beyond a day.  You have to switch to the week view to do it.17:35
th1aAnd it is ugly insofar as it creates a huge event.17:36
th1aThe thing is, in practice, you'd want to schedule individual events within the multi-day event anyhow.17:37
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th1aOne difference is that in iCal you only set the time by dragging.  There's no dialog where you can manually enter a duration.17:38
th1aWe could limit the duration to 24 hours, just for the sake of sanity.17:38
tvon|x31I was wondering about nested events earlier... eg a class schedule17:39
tvon|x31or a conference schedule17:39
th1aHow is a class schedule nested?17:39
tvon|x31well, it would more be a separate object linked to the event I'd think... but the itinerary for an individual class17:40
tvon|x31it would make more senes for a conference17:40
tvon|x31eg, you'd have your march 23 PyCon event, and viewing the event you would see the schedule for that day at pycon17:41
th1atvon|x31:  I think standard practice would be to create a repeating whole day event for the conference and then timed events for sessions, etc.17:43
* mgedmin nods17:47
mgedminI suggest removing 'days' from the add/edit event dialog duration unit drop-down17:48
mgedminonce we have all-day events17:48
tvon|x31how would you schedule a 4 day vacation?17:50
mgedminhere's how I do it in my palm:17:51
mgedmingo to the first day17:52
mgedminclick on 'new'17:52
mgedminclick 'no time'17:52
mgedmintype 'vacation'17:52
mgedminclick 'details', repeat17:52
mgedminclick 'day'17:52
mgedminclick on the drop-down next to "end on'17:52
mgedminselect 'choose date'17:52
tvon|x31repeating vs day duration17:53
mgedminclick on the last day in the calendar17:53
mgedminclick 'ok', click 'ok;17:53
mgedminbtw in a palm, "all day" is a shortcut for 08:00-18:00, while "no time" is what we refer to as an 'all-day event'17:54
mgedminI've never used palm's "all day" events17:54
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th1aDoes this fall upon me? Given, can somebody check whether strftime accepts %I on Windows?18:00
th1amgedmin:  what do I need to do to test this?18:02
mgedminstart an interactive python session18:03
mgedminfrom datetime import datetime18:03
ignascould aqnyone try entering a looong description for an event that lasts 15 minutes please18:03
mgedminmy system's docs say %I is supposed to be "The hour as a decimal number using a 12‐hour clock (range 01 to 12)."18:04
mgedminignas, why?18:04
ignastoo see that it works in a buggy way ;)18:04
th1aI get '11'  It is 11:04 here.18:04
mgedminok, so it works18:04
tvon|x31anyone interested in a "click here to hide the sidebar" type vertical tab for the sidebar?18:06
th1aI don't think we need that now, do we?18:07
ignasi am interested in fixing daily calendar view ...18:07
tvon|x31fixing how?18:08
ignasduno yet, but now a long description on a sghort event kin of breaks the view18:09
ignasin an ugly way18:09
mgedminI agree18:10
* tvon|x31 investigates18:10
mgedminsetting min-height instead of height would fix it on firefox18:10
mgedminbut iexplorer doesn't understand min-height, iirc18:10
mgedminwe could set overflow: something on event boxes in daily view18:11
mgedminor we could put a div inside a div18:11
tvon|x31(ew == the breakage)18:11
* mgedmin starts to wonder18:11
tvon|x31if we let the div expand it makes it confusing how long the event lasts18:11
ignasand i must stuff the booking info into the box somehow18:11
mgedminit's just some text outside its box, right?18:12
tvon|x31how about overflow: hidden along with a tooltip type thing on hover?18:12
tvon|x31mgedmin: yeah18:12
ignastvon|x31, wello now imagine me adding links to booked resources somewhere before description18:14
mgedminfont-size: xxx-tiny18:15
* mgedmin ducks and hides18:15
tvon|x31each event will be a lil flash movie18:16
tvon|x31the problem is we don't have a lot of room with 15 minute events18:17
tvon|x31I think the only real solution is fancy tooltips18:17
ignaswell albertas suggested making minimum height of event like 1 hour18:18
ignashe deems tooltips more or less unuseable18:18
tvon|x31or we expand the event on hover18:18
ignastvon|x31, that would be kind of nice18:19
tvon|x311h still doesnt give us a lot of room18:19
ignastvon|x31, when will your patch be ready ?18:23
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tvonk, committing something, try it18:26
tvonif my net stays up...18:27
tvongo svn, go!18:28
tvonk, it's in18:29
ignastvon, one bug - if event is longer than the text - it gets shorter on hover ...18:30
tvonI have another idea... gimme a min18:31
tvonor 2018:31
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tvon_k, r324918:49
tvon_Is anyone else getting a little twitch when hovering events?18:52
bskahanthe text moves one px18:53
tvon_its annoying18:53
* bskahan agrees18:54
ignasyes it is annoying18:54
ignasi thout it was the intent so i did not yell about it in irc18:54
tvon_heh, no18:55
tvon_I can't find whats causing it though18:55
bskahanwhat overflow is r3249 for?18:56
tvon_long event descriptions in short events18:56
tvon_while not breaking long events with short descriptions :)18:56
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bskahantvon_: cool, I see it now18:57
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bskahanis the padding difference intentional?18:57
tvon_tweaking it a bit more, but it works18:57
tvon_what padding difference?18:58
tvon_the shown description being thinner than the event box?18:58
bskahanthe hover display looks like its one block element short of ...18:58
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bskahanignas: on the blue event, what is "Lorem ipsum..." vs. "asdf ..."19:08
th1aThat looks pretty good.19:08
tvonI like19:09
th1aA little more differentiation between the types of text might be nice.19:09
mgedminI'm guessing that "lorem ipsum" is the title and "asdf" is the description19:09
tvonbskahan: full title vs descriptions19:09
th1aThe hard part is handling the very short events.19:09
bskahanignas: I like it, agree about with tom about text styles19:10
tvonignas: I'm about to commit some restructuring of the event markup... wanna commit yours first or no?19:10
tvonjust wrapping full title and description in a div.body19:10
ignasi will fix it up a little first19:10
tvonso you can stick yer stuff in the div.body... ok19:10
* tvon checks ftests19:11
tvonwe need a lil javascript for a [more] box or something when some of the event body is hidden in css19:11
tvonit would be nice anyways19:11
bskahantvon: ideas for making the entire <div class=hour> clickable for creating events?19:12
bskahaneven though a big portion of the div is covered by events at times, the target area will always be at least the width of the time, and the height of the hour19:13
tvonnot sure.. need a hover indicator of sorts I'd think19:13
bskahanhighlight the row, on mouseover19:15
tvontitle="Add event starting at XX:XX"... yeah19:15
bskahanits the way desktop calendar apps work19:16
tvonignas: committed19:16
* tvon kills evo and fires up mutt19:17
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ignastvon, well try creating an event with duration of like 3 hours19:23
ignasand dont put any description19:24
ignasthen move the mouse over it ...19:24
tvonSeems fine19:25
ignasforgot to reload zope19:25
ignasok, another bug - add event with length of 15 minutes, then just after it add anevent with length of 3 hours, now put a loong description into the 15 min event19:26
ignasmove mouse onto 15 min event in a daily view19:26
* th1a is happy to see intercontinental collaboration.19:26
tvonignas: you mean how it expands over the following event?19:27
tvonyeah, its not pretty19:27
ignasand forgets to expand the border ...19:28
tvontrying to make the "expansion" more distinct at the moment19:28
* mgedmin wistfully thinks about inline images in irc conversations19:28
tvonhard to do that while keeping it pretty when it doesnt need to expand though19:28
tvonwell, it's not expanding the whole event size, just the body19:28
* tvon wonders if there is a JEP for that in MUC19:28
mgedminJEP? MUC?19:30
mgedminJava Enhancement Proposal? Multi User Collaboration?19:30
tvonJabber Enhancment Proposal && Multi User Chat (jabber conferences)19:30
mgedminwow, 67% acurracy19:30
* tvon prefers MUC to IRC19:31
ignas - for clarity and cmoparison19:32
tvonyeha, I know what youre talking about19:32
ignasand you can look at the wonderful non-copyrighted moose, up in the right corner of the screenshot19:32
tvonstill working with it :)19:32
ignasicons i mean19:33
tvonthe keys are like right next to eachother19:34
tvonI like em19:34
tvonday and week anyways19:34
tvonmgedmin: as in "it was a typo"19:35
tvonnm :)19:35
mgedminhappy gnome 2.10 release day everyone, btw19:37
tvonah, indeed19:38
th1aWe've found our icon designer!19:48
tvonbtw, I'd like a "blank" person portrait for use when someone doesnt have a portrait.. I think it looks better than no image19:49
tvoneg, like what plone uses when you dont have a portrait19:50
th1aI'm still anti-portrait in general.19:50
th1aFor SchoolBell.19:50
th1aNot anti-enough to stop it, apparently.19:50
tvonwell, I don't really think we should have portraits without some image scaling ability19:51
tvonI can see leaving it out of schoolbell19:51
th1aBut I do find those blank images annoying.19:51
ignasan idea:19:58
ignaswe got a problem with switching daily->weekly->monthly->daily19:59
ignasnope won't do19:59
ignasi thought of passing date=2005-01-04 to all the urls and maybe adding a hidden name="date" field20:00
ignasto all the forms20:00
ignaslike we do in event add/edit/booking views20:00
mgedminignas, read
mgedminbut I like your idea20:06
mgedminI think20:06
mgedminno, I don't20:06
mgedmincalendar/2005-w03?date=2005-01-22 is just silly20:07
mgedminjust go back to calendar/weekly.html?date=2005-01-2220:07
ignasyah that's why i said "nope won't do"20:08
mgedminout-of-order messages20:09
ignasjust wanted to coin the idea so i would know what i am thinking about20:09
ignasand you would know it too ;)20:09
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tvondoes IE not understand min-height? or safari? anyone know?20:59 probably knows21:00
* tvon checks21:00
mgedminno it doesn't, but should21:01
tvonhrmph.. ie6 only and only in tables it seems.. and no safari21:03
tvonwe should bundle firefox with SB21:03
th1aAnd call it Ubuntu Linux.21:04
th1aUbuntu is likely to assimilate the major ed-related distributions.21:05
bskahanskole and k12?21:05
th1aI'd bet on it.21:05
bskahanI hope canonical folks get ltsp packaged for debian21:05
bskahanI tried to a year ago but ran out of time21:06
th1aThey're working on it.21:07
bskahansince I know nothing about debian packaging, starting with LTSP, which means X, kernels, etc probably wasn't the best plan21:07
th1aActually, I guess I know that it works now, because I saw LTSP terminals running Ubuntu at Linuxworld.21:08
bskahanvery cool21:08
bskahanltsp make way too much sense in schools21:09
bskahanit will never catch on ;)21:09
tvonmakes some sense21:11
tvonmark being all into the edu and whatnot21:11
th1abskahan:  It might not catch on in a big way in the US, but just about everywhere else.21:11
th1aI'm going to a K12LTSP conference/workshop in Maine in June.21:12
bskahanth1a: I was kidding, I'm confident it will catch on in autonomous US schools as well21:12
th1aDepends on how you define "catch on."21:12
bskahanit won't catch on in places where schoolboards make long term agreements with commercial vendors for exclusive access21:13
bskahanth1a: have a link for that conference?21:13
bskahanmgedmin: yeah, you can install ltsp with any distro, but there's no debian packages21:14
th1aI'm really looking forward to that one, because it is the first time I'll be at a conference with our exact target audience.21:15
tvonanyone looked at the daily view in IE lately?21:20
tvonerm.. actually all of em21:20
tvonvery busted here, but then I don't really trust IE on CrossOver21:20
bskahanbusted how?21:21
tvonpositioning is all screwed21:21
tvonits just a mess21:22
tvoncontent calendars are below where left column ends, gooney glitches elsewhere21:22
bskahanwe've got some validation errors in day view21:23
bskahanLine 112, column 10: end tag for "ul" which is not finished21:24
bskahancould mess up positioning21:24
tvoncan you tell where it's coming from?21:25
mgedmintry adding /++debug++source/ in beginning of the url21:26
mgedminthen you should see comments in the output showing which page template file each chunk came from21:26
th1aWhen I install a standalone SchoolBell, where does the 'manager' user come from?21:27 creates it21:28
mgedminand grants the zope.Manager role to this special user21:28
th1aOK.  So we don't need to set principals.zcml?21:28
mgedminthere is no principals.zcml if you use schoolbell-server.py21:29
mgedminthere is no 'manager' user if you use z3.py21:29
mgedminboth things can be changed, if necessary21:30
th1aHm... On Safari I'm not getting any labels on the event information form.21:30
th1amgedmin:  Just making sure I understand what's going on.21:30
mgedminalthough zcml-defined users are only useful for ++etc++process if you use schoolbell-server.py21:30
th1aI've mostly been using z3 lately, and hadn't run the standalone in a while.21:31
th1aBoy, that's weird...21:32
bskahanmgedmin: thanks, that's a beautiful thing21:32
ignaswhat's with all the broken pipe errors recently ?21:32
* tvon just noticed those21:32
th1aThe edit event page is super long, and after a ton of white space, you find the form labels at the bottom.21:33
th1aThat's on Safari.21:33
mgedminread my email to schooltool-dev and you will know about broken pipes21:33
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th1aHm.  The "Add note" form is also badly broken on Safari.  The "Submit" button doesn't work at all.  Cancel does.21:40
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* ignas is proud :)21:54
ignasyeah now if anyone will make the events look nice on IE, and expand beautifully in Mozilla ....21:59
th1aIn SchoolTool we'll generally have a little more space to deal with on the daily calendar, since the school day is relatively short.22:05
th1aWe can display it broken up by class periods, too.22:05
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mgedminbtw Friday is another national holiday in Lithuania22:23
tvonwhats the holiday?22:26
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mgedminreestablishment of independence22:31
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th1aSo at this point, notes are just working the way we described them originally, viewable only by their creator.22:41
tvonerm, no, they are public22:42
th1aThat's not a big deal at this point.22:42
tvonI think I need acl for them to only be viewable by the creator... I dont quite get permissions at this point22:42
bskahancreating a note should require "View object and not Anon"22:43
th1aHave you looked at creating them via Atom?22:43
tvonno.. what's going on with restive views anyways?22:44
bskahanhoping to do it via REST22:44
th1aI assume POV will be starting on that soon.22:44
th1aI don't think I would have time for it at this point at ETech anyhow.22:44
tvonI'll add acl to imrpove things a bit22:45
tvonor "simple acl" or whatever you want to call it22:45
th1aYeah.  A simple acl would be nice.22:47
th1aMaybe just private/public.22:47
th1aThat's probably best.  Private by default.22:48
th1aand "View but not Anon" for creating notes sounds right.22:49
bskahanalga: is there such an ACL?22:49
tvonI figure it can be munged somewhere in there22:53
algabskahan: no23:00
algaer, wait a minute23:00
algabskahan: what do you mean?23:02
bskahanauthenticated users should be able to add notes to any item they can view23:03
tvonI don't think we need the full ACL class, but I'm assuming we can set some permissions without it23:04
algawe don't have any ACLs23:05
tvonoh, thought we did :)23:05
algayou can check whether the person is authenticated23:06
algathe Access Control view is just a front end for Zope 3 local grants23:06
tvonahh, gotcha23:06
algaif IPerson(request.principal, None) is not None, it is an authenticated schoolbell user23:07
tvonwe'll have to store an owner then I think.. unless there is some z3 way to check if auth == creator23:08
alganope :-)23:08 is the thing to store23:08
algait can be 'zope.Manager' , or 'zope.Anonymous', too23:08
tvonokay, that works23:09
algabut if you want only the schoolbell users to add notes, you can store the person object from request.principal23:09
algath1a: do you think issue 191 should be marked as SB 1.0?23:19
th1aAre there any that affect the application itself and not just the tests?23:21
algathe -w thing23:26
algashould I file a separate issue?23:26
th1aYes, please.23:29
th1aIt would be nice if all the tests pass, but the date is probably getting late for that to happen.23:29
algathat was part of our release sequence...  Somebody (Gintas) booting up windows and testing that everything's OK23:32
th1atvon & bskahan:  I just booked my flights for PyCon.  I'm coming Tuesday morning, so we'll have time to practice the talk.  It is only a half hour, so I'm not anticipating any problems with it.23:45
mgedminPyCon, *sigh*23:46
th1amgedmin:  You get to go to Python UK.23:46
th1aDid you get an email from them, by the way?23:47
tvonth1a: cool23:47
* tvon notes he won't be taking part in the talk,but will be happy to provide some practice heckling23:49
bskahanth1a: what time are you arriving tuesday?23:49
th1aI'm sure.23:49
th1a10:35  You should get an email with my flight times from SW.23:50
bskahansounds good23:50
th1aI might need a nap after I arrive.23:50
th1aI keep scheduling these flights as if I was used to getting up at a reasonable hour.23:51
th1aI was pretty incoherent the last time I flew down there.23:52

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