IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-03-07

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mgedminhm, I can't create notes12:02
mgedminUnauthorized: (< object at 0xb1bccd2c>, 'add', 'schoolbell.create')12:04
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th1aGood lord, what a load of SchoolTool-related email.17:07
bskahanI had to break down and add filters for st-dev and st-issues this morning17:09
bskahana good thing(tm)17:09
th1aI think it is easier to run an open source project when you don't have users.17:10
bskahanwe have one17:10
th1aI noticed.17:12
* mgedmin bursts out in laughter17:12
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th1aHere's a sequence for our upcoming presentations which illustrates how ST's REST api works.  It is exported here as a Quicktime, which none of you may be able to use...
th1aYou might want to download the link before trying to view it.17:18
bskahanno luck17:20
bskahantotem managed to thumbnail it, but neither xine or gstreamer will play it17:20
mgedminETA: 17 minutes and increasing...17:21
bskahanth1a's laptop got #schooltool'd17:22
th1aI'll have to make a pdf version.17:23
ignas31% [==========>                          ] 2,260,464      7.36K/s    ETA 09:1817:24
bskahanfor all day events17:26
bskahanwould making a boolean allday attribute on ICalendarEvent and setting duration to 0 be acceptable?17:27
bskahanvs. splitting the datetimes into seperate date/time objects17:27
bskahanwhere allday events only have datestart without a timestart17:28
mgedminwhat about all-day events that have nonzero duration?17:31
mgedminiCalendar allows them17:31
mgedminallday = property(lambda self: not isinstance(self.dtstart, datetime.datetime)) ?17:32
bskahanyour right, doesn't handle multiple day, allday events17:32
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bskahanlooking at event add form.  Would leaving the time empty be sufficient for creating allday events?17:41
bskahanor does it need to be more explicit17:41
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bskahanI'm leaning towards more explicit (like a checkbox that makes the time field insensitive)17:42
mgedminI like the checkbox17:46
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tvonHello all17:58
th1aJust got done plowing through all that mail.18:01
tvonlots o mail18:02
th1aSo, POV:  you still have a few things left to finish on the current contract, as we revised it, correct?18:02
jintybuild it and they will come, right?18:02
th1aI need to get cracking on the website.18:02
th1aSteer people away from ST 0.9.18:02
th1aalga:  That's not a criticism.  Just making sure I know where we are.18:03
algaThe new event booking is underway18:03
bskahanwe still have allday events and timezones18:03
algaThe restive views are not yet started18:03
algaalso, there's some bug fixing to be done...18:03
bskahanI'm stuck pretty hard on not being able to pickle UTC tzinfo objects18:04
algaI'm in the middle of an unpleasant security bugfix/refactoring18:04
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mgedminbskahan, that should be fixed in zope 3 soon, I think18:05
bskahanmgedmin: yeah, I mailed gary about it18:05
th1aSo we have 10 bugs tagged for SchoolBell 1.0?18:05
mgedminI think we should start tracking Zope 3 trunk again18:05
th1aTwo resolved?18:05
mgedmin(currently svn:externals is bound to a specific z3 revision number)18:05
ignassb 1.0 will have resource booking or will not ?18:05
mgedminbut maybe we should wait until  sb 1.0 final is released18:05
* ignas wants to set priorities straight18:06
mgedminto make backporting easier18:06
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th1a1.0 won't have resource booking.18:06
th1aThat'll be in 1.1.18:06
bskahanwhen are you thinking we'll releasing 1.1?18:08
jintyright after Zope 3.1?18:08
th1aWith Zope 3.1 or SchoolTool calendar, whichever comes first.18:08
jintyperhaps time based again18:10
th1aWell, most of the 1.1 features should be done in a couple weeks.18:10
th1a1.1 is pretty much the stuff that we had planned but didn't get into 1.0.18:11
th1aSo we could in theory do a fairly quick release, but I don't see much incentive to.18:11
jintySchoolTool calendar == schooltool 0.9 +1?18:12
th1aSchoolTool Calendar == the timetabling and calendar features from 0.9.18:12
th1aThere are several changes I'd like to make in the process.18:13
th1aWe'll need to discuss them at some point.18:13
jintyok, maybe later18:14
th1aThe past few weeks hasn't seemed like a good time.18:14
th1aI've been working out the details, however.18:16
algath1a: well, I guess you should be more at home with school specific functionality, right?18:16
th1aGood lord, I'll be so happy to leave calendaring behind.18:16
algawhat about school calendaring? :-)18:16
algadoes it still count as calendaring?18:16
th1aWell, it is in-between.18:16
bskahanare we going to include rosters/attendance in Schoolool Calendar?18:17
th1aI think not attendance, because we're shooting for a late April release.18:17
th1aWe may have to move that back a bit anyhow.18:17
* bskahan nods18:18
th1aPlus actually doing attendance is one of those mission critical things we can't just knock out and release to the world quickly.18:18
algawhat was wrong with attendance as we had it in 0.6 or so?18:19
th1aI'm not saying anything was wrong with it.18:19
th1aBut doing the web interface correctly will take a couple weeks, I'd think.18:19
th1aIt is the sort of functionality that requires longer beta testing, compared to just making calendars.18:20
algayou think so?  In my understanding the calendars are much more error-prone...18:20
th1aIn the US, at least, attendance overlaps with lots of legal requirements, attendance records can be subpoenaed as evidence in court, etc.18:21
algaprobably it should be pluggable?18:21
algaso that each country could make its own attendance module?18:21
th1aThat is probably a good idea.18:21
algaIn LT, attendance is combined with results tracking18:22
algathere's a large book with "spreadsheets"18:22
algapupils as rows18:22
algadates as columns18:22
algaand marks or "absent" in cells18:22
th1aMaybe I'm just being pessimistic.18:23
algaprobably we could cook up some modules like that18:23
bskahanI'd like to at least expose class "Groups" as rosters18:24
algacould you explain?18:24
bskahanwhich is a part of the path to an attendance sheet18:24
th1aWe need to more strongly type "sections."18:25
bskahancurrently Biology is just a group in the UI18:25
bskahanbut it has all the information we need to expose it as a "Class" in the UI18:25
th1aHaving everything as just a group is one of the most confusing things about SchoolTool to users.18:25
bskahanso the teacher can look at his/her groups as "Classes" and see all the students that are members18:26
th1aI was thinking about this last night while lying in bed.18:26
bskahanthe UI to display the class is probably the first step to creating the class attendance form18:26
algath1a: I think having everything as groups is good18:26
th1abtw, what bskahan is calling a "class," I'm calling a "section"18:27
algait's just that we do not need to expose all groups to users18:27
algain the same way18:27
th1aWell, perhaps we need to set "section" facets.18:27
bskahanI was looking for a better word18:27
bskahanwe do need some degree of additional data for Sections18:27
bskahanthe teacher and students should all be members of the section, but need to be distinguished18:28
algasubclass membership?18:28
bskahanwouldn't be "member with a URITeaching relationship to this group"18:29
bskahaner, that was "would it be"18:29
ignasi need a glossary of school terms18:30
bskahanan i18n one18:30
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bskahanwe probably should come up with an official schooltool glossary, to normalize things like "Class" vs. "Section"18:31
th1aYes, need to work on the glossary.18:31
th1aWebsite week.18:32
ignaswiki time18:32
th1aIt is hard to do a glossary.18:32
bskahanthe attendance form relies on the Timetable, since it should only show the dates that the class occurs18:32
th1aI just sent an email with a document attached covering some of this stuff.18:32
th1aBefore we spend the whole meeting talking about a future release...18:33
th1aare there any particular concerns or problems with the 8 bugs left for SB 1.0?18:34
th1aAre we going to get the calendars back in as the default start page?18:35
algathat's a cheap one18:35
jintycan someone explain 173 to me? Is it dangerous security wise18:35
algasecurity is trickier, but also doable18:35
th1aSecurity is tricky.18:35
bskahan173 makes it so users can't view their own events, correct?18:36
* jinty thinks releasing with known security bugs a bad idea.18:36
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th1aI don't think we're planning on doing that, jinty.18:37
algajinty: it's not a security bug18:37
algain a sense18:37
jintyDidn't think so either, th1a18:37
algait does not grant enough permissions18:38
algaso by defalut people will not be able to see groups, persons, etc18:38
algaafter the migration18:38
algabut will be able to use their own calendar18:38
jintyok, then I am happy with it at priority=bug18:39
algawhen you create a new schoolbell instance, an IObjectAddedEvent subscriber grants View to all authenticated users18:39
algaso that all users can see names, photos of other users18:39
algait is not done in the migration18:39
algacheap to fix, as well18:39
algajust call the subscriber18:39
mgedminum, is that enough?18:40
mgedminwon't the subscriber want IAnnotatable adapters and stuff?18:40
mgedmindoes the importer set up those adapters?18:40
mgedminah, it does18:41
mgedminnever mind18:41
mgedminhey, alga, waitasec18:41
mgedminwhen you start ./schoolbell-server.py18:41
mgedminthere is no ObjectAddedEvent18:41
mgedminis there?18:41
bskahanaren't view permissions turned off for regular users?18:41
bskahandid that change fairly recently?18:42
bskahanrunning a clean instance (no upgrade) here, created a user18:43
bskahandon't have view permissions on /persons18:43
mgedminbug #1: bootstrapSchoolBell does not send an ObjectAddedEvent for the schoolbell application, so anonymous users do not get view permission18:44
mgedminbug #2: does not send ObjectAddedEvents for persons/groups/resources, thus they do not get default permissions18:44
mgedminwait, no there is no bug #218:44
mgedminperson_container['foo'] = Person(...) sends the ObjectAddedEvent18:45
bskahanth1a: offtopic, maybe send that email to the regular ST list as well?18:46
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th1aI have been planning on doing that.18:47
th1aI guess it is a good time.18:47
bskahannewly created users also don't have permission to view /persons/joesomeone18:47
th1aIs that themselves or others?18:48
algathat's the same bug18:48
th1aSo that's not intentional?  I just assumed it was.18:49
algathe View permission is weak18:49
algait should not be given only in the ultra-paranoid envirnment18:49
algasuch as a US K12 school18:49
algabut for a "groupware" use case, I think it should be on18:50
th1aYes, I agree.18:50
th1aWe can let up for a moment on the paranoia in SchoolBell.18:50
jintyok, 176, is there a patch available somewhere?18:50
mgedminI don't think so18:51
* mgedmin checks
* jinty checked before he asked the question18:52
jintyIf not, I will ust put a reference to into the release notes18:53
algamakes sense18:54
* jinty is otherwise happy, :)18:54
th1abskahan:  so your tzinfo problem is also a Zope 3 bug?18:54
bskahana pytz bug really18:54
bskahanbut being worked on for Zope18:55
th1aAre you going to be able to work around that?18:55
bskahanI've hacked around it to do preferred rendering but to get the whole thing working right, I'm not sure18:57
algaThere's one thing is schoolbell that annoys me a bit18:57
th1aI was reading the weblog of another calendaring project, they were talking about the problem in handling daylight savings time when you store times as UTC.18:57
algaThere's no read-only view for calendar event details18:58
th1aYou have to make sure that repeating meetings, etc. don't shift an hour.18:58
th1aalga: +118:58
* bskahan nods18:59
algawe could make a read-only view in essence listing the info18:59
algausing basically the same logic as the event edit view does18:59
ignasthat would solve the breadcrumb of the event too18:59
ignasalga: +119:00
th1aSounds good to me.19:00
algafor the short term (1.0), I'd still make it redirect to edit19:00
jintyalga: +119:00
algalater on, we should modify the calendar views to link to edit/view depending on perms19:01
bskahananyone know a span equivalent to widget_row, for putting 2 widgets side my side?19:02
algayou need to render these by hand19:03
algasee the event edit view19:03
bskahanalga: thanks19:03
algathe start of the recurrence section19:03
algarepeat every [  1] [days [v]]19:04
th1aThe "formal" meeting is over, btw.19:04
tvonI need to run ;)19:05
tvonI'm stealing a pulic Ubuntu box at the moment, need to get back to my stuff19:05
tvonbye all19:05
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bskahanoh, that's annoying (alot of tal to avoid a line break)19:09
* jinty would become a roundup fanatic if the mails were threaded in mutt19:13
algathat's actually feasible, isn't it? :-)19:14
jintyI'm sure its quite easy19:14
bskahanmutt threads very nicely19:15
jintybut not for roundup for me19:16
jintyI think its a missing "In-Reply-To: msgid" header19:17
jintythat roundup somehow loses19:18
mgedminjinty, file a wishlist bug19:21
* jinty goes looking for roundup's roundup19:22
mgedminI'm afraid you'll find roundup uses the sourceforge issue tracker, ick!19:23
th1aSo apparently, my little Basecamp exploration last week was in the middle of this:
* jinty thinks our roundup is 0.6 and 0.8 is out19:26
* mgedmin agrees19:27
jinty<ThreeDotsInSmallTriangle> wishlist bug = probably a bad idea19:28
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jintyroundups CHANGES.txt shows tentitive steps towards threading messages in 0.419:40
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jintyth1a: you want to be able to run zope directly from the schoolbell tarball?19:57
th1aUh... I'm not sure if I do or not.19:59
th1aI just don't want things that look like they should work to generate errors.19:59
th1aSo either they should be hidden or they should work.19:59
jintyyep, but how to hide?20:00
mgedminrm -rf20:00
jintyI think it is only a matter of including the right config files20:01
jintybut I am clueless and trial and error takes such a looooong time20:01
th1aIt isn't a high priority.20:04
jintybut cheers!20:04
jintyok, then thats that20:04
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