IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-03-01

algahey, guys00:23
algathere's a stupid bug in the "jump to" box00:23
algawhen you select a month, you get "teleported" to that month in the year 200400:24
algawhich does not quite make sense ;-)00:24
Vobliaat least fix it to be 2005 if you don't have much time00:24
Vobliayet i would prefer you making it the year selected00:24
Vobliaso i could jump to 200600:24
Vobliaand then jump to april00:24
Vobliawhich would get me into 2006-0400:25
Voblianot 2004-0400:25
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* tvon|desk wonders when launchpad will be released05:55
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* tvon writes better migration docs...08:50
th1aBetter than whom?09:08
tvon|x31than what I just commited09:08
tvon|x31heh.. adding wrapper scripts as well...09:09
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aethyrhey tvon09:19
tvon|x31hello aethyr09:19
aethyrI saw a post of yours saying you use clearlooks with the indubstrial color scheme09:19
aethyrdid you do that yourself?09:19
aethyror is there I place I can get that?09:19
tvon|x31I did it, I can toss it online for you09:19
tvon|x31one sec...09:19
aethyrawesome :)   I was just thinking how I'd like clearlooks with an indubstrial color scheme, and google dug that up09:19
tvon|x31heh, nice09:20
tvon|x31I often port that colorscheme to engines I like09:20
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tvon|x31though... its a loose copy... it doenst have the same "tabbed areas lighter than background" effect that indubstrial has09:21
aethyrcool, I'll check it out, thanks again :)09:24
tvon|x31no problem09:24
aethyrI like it better than clearlooks09:26
aethyrnot sure how I like it compared to indubstrial yet09:26
aethyrI'll keep it on for a day or two09:26
aethyrthanks :)09:26
tvon|x31heh, no problem :)09:27
* tvon|x31 hits the sack10:13
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* mgedmin fixing ftests15:57
mgedminprogress: instead of one ftest failure, now I have two...15:57
mgedmindown to one16:15
mgedminhey, the jump to portlet is still buggy16:47
mgedminI jump to july, I appear in 200416:47
th1aYay!  More snow.17:01
* mgedmin fumes17:01
mgedminsomeone lost the unit tests for getJumpToYears/getJumpToMonths17:02
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th1aSo do we do a handheld client or create a customized web view?17:30
bskahanhandheld view, I would hope ;)17:32
th1aOnce we're really off the ground we should be able to get grants from people other than Mark for that kind of work.17:34
th1aBill Gates was praising High Tech High in his big talk to the governors about high school reform.17:55
th1aI'm meeting with HTH in a couple weeks when I'm in San Diego for ETech.17:55
th1aIt would be sweet to be in one of BillG's favorite schools.17:56
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th1a|shovelingI guess with SB 1.0 we should start posting tarballs on
bskahanprobably just the SB package though?18:17
bskahanto the Z3 add-ons section18:17
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bskahani wish "Could not adapt" was more informative19:46
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algath1a|shoveling: are you there?20:32
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th1aDone shoveling.20:33
th1aWhat's up?20:33
algawe're thinkig about resource booking20:35
algait is a particular case of a more general thing:  events with multiple participations20:35
algalike a meeting with a list of people attending it and a list of resources used20:36
algado you thing we will ever need that?20:36
th1aOne would imagine so.20:37
bskahanto move into the sheduling aspects of 'meetings' rather than 'events'20:38
th1aHula is totally meeting oriented.20:38
* mgedmin notes that when you get into this more general case, questions about access control become hard to answer20:42
algaWhen people are involved, we also need invitations and acceptances20:43
algaso, we might do the cheap thing -- approximately what we had in 0.920:43
algaor try to start a more general architecture for those future use cases20:44
algabut that would take a lot longer, we would have to renegotiate the proposal or something20:44
th1aI think we should architect for those use cases, even if we don't implement them in the short term.20:45
th1aSo yeah, perhaps we should modify the proposal.20:45
algabasically, the main question is who can edit events that involve several people20:45
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th1aBy default, the person who created the event.20:46
algabut then he/she could intrude into other people's calendars20:46
th1aIf I call a meeting with 10 participants, I'm still in charge of the meeting.20:46
th1aSo they need to be able to decline, etc.20:47
th1aWhich, quite frankly I don't want to implement in the foreseeable future.20:47
alga*sigh* I feel relieved20:48
th1aWe could assume that people will still be, you know, talking to each other.20:48
algado we want to allow booking several resources at once?20:48
algaIgnas suggested an interesting thought -- adding resources to already created events20:49
th1aWe do want to allow booking several resources.20:50
th1ae.g., I need the cart of laptops and the projector.20:50
th1aIn SchoolTool, the event will often be a timetable event.20:51
th1aThat may drive you insane.20:51
th1aOr we may just have to make those instances calendar events.20:51
alganext question:20:52
algain 0.9 we can't modify booking events20:52
algacreate, delete. that's it20:52
algado we want to let people modify booking events in 0.920:53
algado we want to let people modify booking events in sb 1.1?20:53
algathen, who should be able to modify, if there are a person and several resources involved?20:53
th1aIn a sense we won't have booking events in 1.1, right, we'll just have events with attached resources.20:53
* mgedmin notes that in sb 0.9 you can modify booking events, but they magically become regular nonbooking events if you touch them20:54
algamgedmin: which is essentially not being able to modify20:54
algauser: "If I modify booking events they break!"20:54
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algawe: don't do that then20:54
algaso, you like the idea of being able to attach resources?20:55
th1aLet's see... I haven't spent much time with the new permissions system yet--but I will!  But anyway, let me know if this makes no sense.20:55
th1aAs reasonable defaults.20:56
algathen that event should magically appear on the resources' calendar?20:56
th1aSo you'd need permission to add events to the resource's calendar.20:56
algawhat about modification then?20:57
algastraightforwardly, you also need permissions to modify calendars on all resources you included20:57
algabut will that be the case?20:57
th1aI would imagine.20:57
th1aUnless all this security stuff is just to get in the way.20:57
th1aOn implication is that you should have "add" permission to the calendars of all the people you invite.20:58
th1aI think there is a difference in the "meetings between peers" and "meetings called by your boss" use cases.21:00
th1aMeetings between peers are more complicated for us.21:00
th1aThey don't really work without invites, etc.21:01
th1aMeetings called by the boss can be forced through the permissions framework though, I think.21:01
th1aLuckily, many schools are strictly hierarchical and teachers don't call meeting with each other ;-)21:02
algabut right now we're only thinking about resources, yes? :)21:03
mgedminsuddenly the phrase "human resources" springs into mind...21:03
th1aI'm drifting a bit.21:03
algaso were we21:04
algathe domain is hard21:04
algaI want to narrow it down as much as possible21:04
* mgedmin discards ~400 spams from the checkins mailman queue21:04
algaok, imagine I created an event and booked a resource21:04
algafor which you are a "manager"21:04
algacan you cancel that booking?  edit the event?21:05
algadelete the event?21:05
th1aWe can't completely prevent people from fucking each other over.21:05
th1aI'd say that, as a general rule, the managers of the things involved in the meeting have control over the thing's participation in the meeting.21:06
algabut right now, do we want to be restrictive or permissive?21:07
th1aOn the other hand, it is simpler to keep the control in the hands of the meeting manager.21:07
th1aIsn't it?21:07
algaI think so21:07
Vobliai just thought - if people are resources -- we could issue a warning when your meeting colides with someones callendar (in the same manner as with conflicting classrooms)21:08
th1aVoblia:  That would be desirable.21:08
th1aOK, so in shaping the use cases, remember 1) we're assuming that people creating meetings have some authority over the people and things they're inviting to the meeting, and thus should have add permissions to their calendars.21:09
th1a2) We're assuming that if someone wants a person or resource removed from the meeting, they can contact that person outside the system.21:10
th1aContact the manager of the event.21:10
th1aI think that will give us a basic implementation that can be expanded later.21:10
algawhat about conflicts then?21:11
th1aIt is also a feature that would be attractive for outside developers.21:11
algain ST 0.8 only managers could book with a conflict, and teachers could not21:11
th1aIt would be good if potential conflicts were noted before the event was booked.21:12
th1aBut again, assuming that the people booking the events have authority over the members, we should probably allow conflicts to go through.21:13
algaOTOH, are conficts that bad?21:14
Vobliawhen attaching a resource to an event - you sghuold clearly see resources that are busy on the "event time"21:14
algaif a user is used to overlaid calendars, they happen all the time21:14
th1aIf my personal calendar has "Get a haircut" and my boss wants to book "Tom's annual review," he shouldn't be blocked.21:14
Vobliath1a, yet having you in a separate box, with a link to your calendar (or even ... gasp ... title and time of the conflicting event)21:15
Vobliawoudl be nice21:15
* Voblia wants to have a separate attaching resources/persons to event dialog (so the event add/edit dialog would not get any more cluttered)21:17
th1aVoblia +121:17
algaa list of resources21:17
th1aWe should keep in mind that school administrators will make the decision about adopting SchoolTool or not, so aiming features at them is always a good idea.21:18
Vobliaand maybe persons ?21:18
algafor which you have and add permission21:18
algaand overlapping events for those, for which you have view21:18
th1aThis is making sense, I think.  I'm excited.21:20
th1aOne thing to also keep in mind is that when teachers book resources for their classes, they probably won't explicitly add the students as attendees.21:22
th1aThe kids will be showing up to class anyhow, and they don't care that there will be a projector there.21:22
th1aBut if, for example, the class was moved to another room, perhaps then the group could added as attending so the new location would show up on their calendar.21:23
Vobliawell if kids know of the class - they have an event don't they ?21:25
Vobliawho owns the event ?21:25
Vobliaouch - timetable event i guess ?21:25
th1aThe class would normally be a timetable event.21:25
* Voblia is not very familiar with schooltool21:25
th1aFew are.21:25
Voblia<lol>making timetable event a resource that is free/available on the time it is happening and book it with the projector and classroom  ;)</lol>21:27
th1aYou know, here's something that may save our sanity and make the timetable event code way simpler.21:28
th1aCan we assume that after the first week of school or whatever, a student really isn't going to be looking at his timetable calendar?21:28
th1aAnd everything like a changed calendar due to an assembly or something should just be represented as regular events, since they'll just be looking at their regular calendars anyhow?21:29
algaI think it is going to be overlaid on his main calendar most of the time21:30
th1aKeep the timetable view completely static.21:30
th1aWell, think about how we'll represent homework assignments then, for example.21:31
th1aWe'll either need to add them to the timetable calendar or as calendar events.21:31
th1aIf we assume the student is always overlaying the timetable calendar, then a homework assignment should show up in that view.21:31
th1ae.g. 9:00 English -- Essay due.21:32
algawhat about the proposal?21:32
algado we have to edit it and send to you in its entirety?21:33
th1aWhich one?  ;-)  Sorry I'm wandering afield.21:33
th1aI would say you should send me a revised proposal for the contract you're finishing and a new one.21:33
algaI think we have reached and idea of the functionality we want21:33
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algaa new one?21:34
algawhat's going in there?21:34
th1aOh, you're just thinking of revising the current one.  That's simpler.21:36
th1aJust do that.21:36
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th1aNow I just have to figure out what's running on this thing.23:02
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th1aDoes SchoolBell 1.0 prefer Python 2.4?23:15
bskahanI don't think so23:23
th1aNor do I.23:24
th1aThis thing is running Red Hat.  Agh.23:25
th1aAh, jeez.  It's "Sun Cobalt Linux."23:28
th1aWho knows what the fuck that is.23:28
bskahanthe little blue cube23:29
th1aActually it is a little blue rack.23:29
bskahanoh yeah, forgot they made those23:29
th1aWho knows what version of whatever I need.23:29
bskahantoo bad about cobalt23:29
th1aThere's a little picture on the web page.23:29
th1aI need a subversion client.23:30
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