IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-02-21

bskahanrsta: how do you want to apply relationships to a weblog?00:00
th1aOne thing I'm wondering about in general is whether there a practical way to create a GUI front end that will create XML schema definitions in the filesystem, instead of doing it through the web.00:01
bskahanth1a: for relationships?00:02
th1abskahan:  For demographic data.00:02
bskahanwould the xml schema be triples?00:04
th1aAh... ZCML.00:05
rstabskahan: categories... but i'm not sure i want to be tied to a platform like Z300:06
th1aDon't want to be tied to a platform or don't want to be tied to a platform like Z3?00:07
rstathe first00:08
bskahantvon: have you tried those notes in a browser at all yet?00:08
rstathanks for the information all.  i have to run.  ttyl00:09
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tvonbskahan: no, doing that now00:10
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tvon|x31grr, wifi00:11
tvon|x31bskahan: no, havent touched browser/ yet00:11
tvon|x31am now..00:11
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bskahanstupid battery warning00:21
bskahanimplementing read/write vfb would present a problem that readonly vfb doesn't00:37
bskahane.g. we can go from the schoolbell.calendar info to vfb, but you can't go the other way00:38
bskahanstill useful, just a caveat00:38
bskahanfree/busy for outlook and evolution00:41
bskahanyou can subscribe to people's vfb url to schedule meetings, and we have all the data need to provide vfb urls00:42
bskahanbut there's not enough data when vfb is published to create actual events00:43
tvonwould need a new event type00:43
tvonbusyblock or something00:43
bskahanevent's have a busyblock attribute00:43
bskahanbut the published event's would have random titles, etc00:43
tvonyeah, but I don't think vfb provides enough to create an event00:43
bskahanagreed, I don't think there's enough info to really even try to work with it00:47
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* mgedmin upgrading to 0.912:28
* mgedmin forgot all passwords :/12:53
mgedminhm, the database upgrade reset the manager's password to the default one!12:56
mgedmincalendar colours are not assigned when you add calendars to your portlet, but rather when you check on them and say "overlay" -- I find this confusing13:00
mgedminsome calendar colours are only assigned when you view the calendar a *second* time after choosing those calendars for overlay13:01
mgedminI love the ability to overlay calendars of arbitrary persons13:02
* mgedmin curses all dhcp clients, especially dhclient313:02
mgedminschoolbell *needs* timezones13:04
mgedminwe need to eat more dogfood13:07
mgedminUI wart in schoolbell 1.0-pre: if I go to a person and click 'edit info', I have no way of going back to that person's info screen14:04
* mgedmin wants breadcrumbs14:05
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tvonhit 'cancel' :)16:24
tvonwhen editing person info hitting cancel takes you back to the person view... I believe16:27
tvonnot important :) we still need breadcrumbs16:27
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tvon|x31ugh, wifi is geeking out again17:27
tvon|x31wifi is on crack today17:29
tvon|x31Brian is in Florida at the moment, so he won't be joining us come meeting time17:29
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th1aHello, gentlemen.18:00
th1aAgenda items:18:02
th1a1) quick update from each site,18:02
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th1a2) any further questions/comments on Zope 3 related issues18:03
tvon|x31Hello all18:03
th1a3) which features _won't_ be ready in a week,18:03
gintasI'm not sure where alga and mgedmin are, I think they had gone out to lunch, but they haven't come back yet18:03
th1aI guess we can wait.18:04
gintasthey have just come in18:04
th1aNo problem.18:04
th1a4) Time permitting, I can introduce a few things we'll be working on post-SchoolBell 1.0.18:05
tvon|x31If I don't respond to any questions for a minute it's because the wifi hates me. I'll reconnect and read the irclogs if that happens.18:05
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th1aCan I have a quick week in review from POV?  mgedmin?18:06
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mgedmina big refactoring by srichter landed in zope 3 land18:07
th1aDid that put you behind schedule?18:08
mgedminwe had to do some updating to make schoolbell work after that18:08
mgedminother than that, there was some pushing of calendaring views18:08
mgedminand alga added an access control view18:08
algaand we had a national holiday18:08
mgedminwe got bogged down with zope 3 widgets in the event adding view18:08
mgedminit was a slow week :(18:08
th1aWhat bogged you down?18:09
algatwo days off practically --18:09
algaa holiday and catching up with zope18:09
th1aI mean, about widgets?18:09
mgedminI think th1a wants to know about widgets18:09
mgedminsome of the rarer-used zope 3 widgets are a bit quirky, and sometimes outright buggy18:10
mgedminin retrospect, I think we should have just coded the difficult parts by hand18:11
mgedmininstead of trying to make widgets work18:11
th1aDid you end up making fixes to the Zope 3 code?18:11
Awaybliamy bad18:11
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mgedminsome helpful zope 3 folks ended up making fixes to the Zope 3 code ;)18:11
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th1atvon_:  are you back with us?18:13
tvon_I think so18:13
tvon_though my ip and essid don't match up like they should, but whatever...18:13
th1atvon_:  How was your week?18:14
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* mgedmin thought internet access was better in the US18:15
th1aActually, internet access in the US sucks.18:15
tvon|x31stupid thing.. there are a bunch of networks around here and I keep hopping between them18:15
tvon|x31driving me batty18:15
th1atvon|x31:  Well, give us a quick week in review.18:16
tvon|x31While I'm here, etria update..  Brian has been stuck on various portions of Preferences for a while... mostly with annotations. We have worked on that together a bit and I did some work on Notes since the annotations workis similar and now we are both stuck at the same point18:16
tvon|x31Namely, everything works fine untill we try to incorporate it into browser/ at which point we get ForbiddenAttribute errors18:17
th1aWe'd better get to the bottom of that, then.18:17
tvon|x31I'm not sure what we need to setup, but I can do "notes = INotes(person)" but any attempt to access  'notes' raises the error18:17
mgedmintvon|x31, do you have a <content> declaration for the Notes class?18:18
tvon|x31I figure its some zcml thing18:18
tvon|x31ah, see? no :)18:18
mgedmindo you specify <adapter ... trusted="yes" /> ?18:18
tvon|x31yes, not in browser/ though, just app/configure.zcml18:18
mgedminyou might also have to make Notes provide ILocation, and set its __parent__ to the object you are annotation18:18
mgedminannotating, I mean18:18
mgedmintvon|x31, app/configure.zcml is the correct place for the adapter and permission declarations18:19
tvon|x31and the content tag?18:19
* mgedmin nods18:20
mgedminthat's what I meant by "permission declarations", sorry for being obscure18:20
tvon|x31ah, np18:20
tvon|x31so <content class=".app.Notes".. ? or app.Note?18:20
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th1ajinty:  hi.18:21
jintyth1a:hey, little late I know18:22
th1aNo problem.18:22
jintymeeting started yet?18:22
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th1aYes, we've just been discussing what was done this week, while tvon bounces on and off line.18:22
jintyok, gotta look at the logs18:23
th1aI went to LinuxWorld and demo-ed SchoolBell for a few people.18:23
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th1aZope Corp. is interested in commercial licenses for SchoolBell code.18:23
tvon_most impressive18:23
* mgedmin oohs18:23
tvon_Okay, another number on the list was "things we might not get done", for us I think its free/busy since it requires figuring out more of the ical parsing than I was hoping it would18:24
jintySounds exactly what you were looking for18:24
tvon_th1a: interesting18:24
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th1aI don't know if anything will come of it.18:25
th1aThey brought it up though, not me.18:25
jintyeven more interesting18:25
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th1atvon needs an ethernet cable.18:26
algaor he needs to set one concrete ESSID18:26
algaor he needs to stop wandering around with the laptop in his hands18:27
th1aI also talked a while with Stephan about workflow.  We're all going to be learning more than we ever wanted to know about workflow in the next year, I think.18:27
mgedminwhat's XPDL?18:28
th1aXML Process Definition Language.18:28
* mgedmin is a bit scared of the word "workflow", after reading
th1aWell, there was never any doubt that SchoolTool wouldn't get you laid.18:29
Workbliamy first big application was a groupware18:29
th1aAch.  tvon is still gone...18:30
mgedminall three of them?18:30
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th1aOK.  Where were we... other Zope 3 issues?18:31
Workbliai can see one instance of tvon18:31
tvon__I have the essid set, in /etc/network/interfaces, it seems to take it as a suggestion18:32
tvon__hrm.. I'm not actually here am I.. dangit18:32
tvon__I'm here18:32
tvon__I think18:32
th1atvon__:  you are here.18:32
tvon__There are no other z3 issues on our end at the moment18:32
tvon__We'll be sure to harass whomever we can get our paws on if another comes up though18:32
mgedmintvon__, any time18:33
th1aOK.  So let's review what is going to be done in a week.18:33
th1aAre we going to have time zones?18:33
mgedminI don't think we can promise that from our side18:33
tvon__yes, though another Q: at what level should we put them?18:33
tvon__in the browser/views?18:34
tvon__and whenever something is created we'll convert to utc?18:34
tvon__in app/18:34
mgedmintvon__, schoolbell.calendar should be able to express timezone info in icalendar output, and read it back18:34
mgedminthen needs to be able to convert them to user's preferred tz for display18:34
mgedmin(and back to utc for input)18:35
mgedminok, this week we're going to finish those calendar views18:36
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algath1a: what is more important to you, booking or RESTive views?18:37
algabooking is more complex, needs thinking18:37
algait is a partial case of a more generic concept,18:38
Workblia+1 booking18:38
algaevents that concern more than 1 person/group18:38
alga /resource18:38
Workbliaeven if the generic concept will not be implemented untill SB 1.018:39
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Workbliawe will have one definitive test suite for the functionality, that whould make generifying the code easier18:39
algasooner or later we'll need to refactor it like that18:39
Workblia^ imho ^18:39
algaI feel that restive views are more straightforward than booking18:40
algabut there might be hidden problems18:40
gintasit's a question of conceptual vs. implementation problems18:40
algawhat do you mean?18:41
th1aalga:  Does your question mean we will only end up with one or the other in SB 1.0?18:41
gintaswell, I think we have the restive views and the problem here is to port them to Zope318:41
gintasi.e., they will not require extensive modifications18:42
algath1a: I hope not, but we need to prioritize18:42
algaso that we don't end up with both things half done18:42
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gintaswhereas I think I have heard about plans to implement booking differently18:42
gintasso we would be able to reuse less18:42
* mgedmin isn't so confident about restive views18:43
jintyalga: +118:43
th1aI haven't envisioned the changes in booking requiring a significantly different implementation.18:44
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th1aIt is more of a UI thing.18:44
gintasI did not mean to imply that booking is harder than restive views18:44
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algahi __tvon__ :)18:44
__tvon__quick note: 'week start day' is a low priority and might not get done18:44
__tvon__how often are the irc logs updated? 5 mins?18:45
* mgedmin nods18:45
mgedmin__tvon__, strip .html and you'll get an unformatted plain text log file that is updated instantly18:45
th1aHm.  Looks like there may be a SchoolBell 1.1 quicker than I thought.18:46
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jintydefinitly when zope 3.1 arrives18:46
WorkbliaSB 1.1 - The missing features revisited18:46
algatime based releases for you :-)18:47
th1aBut we also need to finish this list before moving on to SchoolTool.18:47
jintywell, all things have good/bad sides18:47
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th1aActually, some of these we probably will just drop.18:48
th1aAll Day Events.18:48
mgedminjinty, I've noticed that you wrote extensive release process documentation, but I haven't had the time to read it yet18:48
mgedminI was thinking that perhaps we should create /trunk/schoolbell and move schoolbell stuff over there18:48
jintywould it be too much to ask developers to work more on branches, only committing features ready for release to trunk..18:48
mgedminbecause it is going to be a separate package, with its own top-level documentation and setup scripts18:48
jintymgedmin yay!18:48
mgedminand a different release cycle18:49
jintybut not before 1.0!!! please18:49
mgedminjinty, what do you mean?18:49
jintyabout comitting to trunk?18:49
mgedmin<jinty> but not before 1.0!!! please18:50
mgedminah, you were referring to development branches18:50
mgedminI thought you were talking about /trunk/schoolbell18:50
jintyplease don't make trunk/schoolbell before I branch for 1.018:50
mgedminok, /me won't touch anything18:51
gintassvn mkdir svn+ssh://  ;-]18:51
jintyThanks, stability just before a release18:51
jintyis good!!!18:52
* jinty wallops gintas18:52
th1aAnything in particular we need to be aware of in the next week, jinty?18:52
jintyone big thing on my mind, db_upgrade18:52
th1aWe forgot passwords, apparently.18:53
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jintyhmm.. it's good we're getting practice before 1.018:54
mgedminth1a, what do you mean?18:54
mgedmininitial user for schoolbell?18:54
th1amgedmin:  We forgot to include passwords in the db upgrade, right?18:54
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mgedminth1a, which upgrade?18:55
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mgedmin0.8 -> 0.9 or 0.9 -> 1.0?18:55
th1aIn 0.8 - 0.9?  Didn't you post about that?18:55
mgedminI think 0.8 -> 0.9 resets the manager's password, but retains passwords of other users18:55
th1aOh.  OK.  Never mind.18:55
jintyotherwise bskahan was going to write the upgrade script?18:56
th1aWe're just not well represented on the US side today.18:57
th1aIt is a national holiday, by the way.  Presidents' Day.18:57
jintyno worries, just being sure about that18:57
th1aThey've allocated time to work on the upgrade.18:58
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th1aWell, this meeting, while somewhat slow and one sided, has given me a much clearer picture of where we are.18:58
jintyOtherwise, im just worried that i've left out some piece of zope 3 that might be usefull in schoolbell 0.1018:59
jintyfrom the tarball, that is.18:59
gintasI don't think that is probable18:59
tvon|x31happy Presidents' day18:59
* jinty is relieved19:00
th1aOK.  There's the bell.  Class is dismissed.19:00
* mgedmin runs for the door19:00
* tvon|x31 waits to poof from existance19:01
* gintas runs out19:01
* jinty goes to give the teacher an apple19:01
tvon|x31teachers pet!19:01
* jinty smiles shyly19:01
tvon|x31sure, now I'm staying connected...19:02
jintyth1a: I discovered and decided writing a very bad genetic algorithim solver might not be so hard19:03
WorkbliaGA are EZ as pie ;)19:04
jintythe hardest part being the fitness function, which I have to do anyway for the interactive gui19:04
jintyWorkbila: I hope!!! you got any hints?19:05
th1ajinty:  Interesting.19:06
jintyjust to let you know.19:06
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__tvon__I asked earlier but I think I was in wifi limbo..  If I add a new file (app/ do I need to do anything special to get doctests to run in it?19:48
__tvon__I moved all the note goodies in there but none of the class doctests seem to want to run19:48
algabasically, you need to add it to some test suite19:48
algalook at schoolbell/app/tests/ for examples19:49
__tvon__I see it, thanks19:49
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alganow that I think of it, a new module asks for a new test module19:50
__tvon__I have a in there already, but I hadn't added doctest.DocTestSuite('')19:51
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tvonIRT the content tag in zcml for Notes, do I need to define read/write interfaces?20:18
tvonsimilar to IPersonRead/Write?20:18
mgedminlet me check20:19
mgedminI think, either define two interfaces20:20
mgedminor just assign permissions to attributes20:20
mgedmin<require permission="..." attributes="__iter__" />20:20
mgedmin<require permission="..." attributes="add remove clear" />20:21
tvonhow about for Note? since it's just a few fields20:21
tvontitle/body namely20:22
mgedmin<require permission="readonlyperm" interface=".interfaces.INote" />20:24
mgedmin<require permission="writableperm" set_schema=".interfaces.INote" />20:25
mgedminassuming that notes are editable20:25
mgedminif you just create them once, and pass title/body to the constructor20:25
mgedminand then never change those attributes, then you don't need <req... set_schema>20:25
tvonHow should I handle making notes available in the UI? A base class with some fetching method for group/person/resource to inherit?20:27
tvonwell... and calendar maybe, and event.. not sure what should be notable yet20:27
tvonor is this more zcml voodoo?20:27
th1aNotes for events, not calendars.20:28
* tvon nods20:28
tvonyeah, calendars doenst make much sense20:28
mgedmindon't touch base classes20:28
mgedmintouch only views20:29
mgedminnote that events are not annotatable now20:29
tvonI mean a base view class20:29
mgedminlet me think20:29
mgedminwhat sorts of objects will have notes?20:30
tvonits not too elegant, ideally something somewhere could just "figure it out" when the context is IAnnotatable20:30
tvonthough in that case we'd want INotable20:31
mgedminperhaps mark them with a marker interface IHaveNotes20:31
mgedminthen register a view for IHaveNotes20:31
mgedminthen perhaps add a chunk at the bottom of the page macro20:31
th1aFor SchoolTool, attaching notes to people is important, but for SchoolBell, the most important thing would be notes for events.20:31
mgedmintal:define="notes context/@@notes|nothing"20:31
mgedminyou could, in theory, register the @@notes view for IAnnotatable20:32
tvonI think thats too broad20:32
mgedminso do I20:32
mgedmintherefore I suggest IHaveNotes(IAnnotatable)20:32
tvonI like that20:33
mgedmin"notable" means something completely different in English, right?20:33
tvonit can, yes20:33
tvonIHaveNotes sounds better anyways20:33
tvonyou can say it with a wink :)20:33
mgedminby the way, if tal:define="notes context/@@notes|nothing" raises ComponentLookupErrors despite |nothing20:34
mgedminthen register a @@notes view for="*" that always renders to an empty string20:34
* mgedmin pauses20:34
mgedmindo you know how menu views work?20:34
mgedminor @@absolute_url20:35
tvonnot really, I know you can add stuff to zcml20:35
mgedminyou could do the same thing20:35
mgedminjust define a view named 'notes' that has an __iter__ which returns all notes20:35
mgedminthen do the rendering in the page macros20:35
mgedmin<div tal:define="notes context/@@notes" tal:condition="notes">20:35
tvonI think I get it20:36
mgedmin<div class="note" repeat="note notes" tal:content="note">Text</div>20:36
tvonit's all starting to make... sense20:38
mgedmin<div tal:define="notes context/@@notes" tal:onerror="nothing>20:39
mgedmin<tal:for repeat="note notes">...</tal:for>20:39
mgedmin<form action="@@add_note.html" method="post">20:40
mgedminthen define the 'notes' view only for IHaveNotes objects20:40
mgedmintal:onerror will hide this div if context does not provide IHaveNotes... I think20:40
tvonI register a view for an interface with <page..?20:42
mgedminI think so20:43
mgedmindoes <browser:view> even exist these days?  did it ever exist?20:43
tvonwe don't seem to have one20:43
tvonbtw, in z3 does every dir need a configure.zcml or do we have it setup like that for the sake of keeping things clean?20:44
mgedmin(the clean bit)20:44
mgedminjinty, what's the status of in schoolbell 1.0 pre?20:46
mgedminI assume it is not necessary, right?20:46
jintyNo, though removing it will break But thats easily fixable through a dirty hack20:46
jintyyou want to get rid of it?20:47
mgedminI was wondering whether I can continue to use os.path.dirname(__file__) in python code20:48
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jintyI dunno, depends whether you want it to go in /usr/share or usr/lib20:49
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jintybut from what I see of zope, it installs in usr/lib and expects it's modules to as well20:50
mgedminyeees... and zope puts all page templates and images in usr/lib too20:50
* mgedmin just got a wonderful error message from subversion20:51
mgedmin"copy (cp): Duplicate something in working copy or repository, remembering history."20:51
tvonthats a new one to me20:51
* jinty is clueless20:51
jintydon't worry, when baz comes along you will have to start learning all over again:)20:52
tvonI'm not convinced about distributed VC but I'm more than willing to give baz a spin20:54
* mgedmin has experienced baz20:54
tvonmgedmin: launchpad?20:54
* mgedmin nods20:54
tvonwaddaya think?20:54
mgedminit's not ready yet20:54
mgedminit doesn't scale down nicely20:54
mgedminsvn status takes ages20:55
mgedminerr, baz status takes ages20:55
tvonever played with svk?20:55
mgedminbaz eats gigs of disk space for caches that are supposed to speed things up, but it is still much slower than subversion20:55
mgedminI suppose there are use cases where baz is much better than svn (distributed development)20:56
tvonanyone going to pycon aside form th1a ?21:01
* mgedmin shakes his head21:02
tvonmgedmin: not flyin over for it? :)21:02
tvonpfft, some py hacker you are21:02
algaUS is evil!21:02
algasecurity conscious people don't go there21:02
th1aWe don't let just anyone in the country.21:03
* jinty comes back from 5 min typing break21:04
jintynot unless I learn how to long distance swim21:05
algaSchooltool probably violates some 50 patents on Internet calendaring ;-)21:05
mgedminjinty, you could walk along the bottom21:05
tvonhah, if they had us all in one place there would surely be a raid21:05
tvonany long distance partipants in the various pre-con sprints?21:06
* jinty thinks for a while then decides thats a bad idea21:06
jintymgedmin: one day I'll try to extend pathconfig use in schoolbell.21:08
mgedminjinty, I think the right place to start would be Zope 321:08
mgedminthings like zcml and ViewPageTemplateFile21:08
mgedminI wish you good luck ;-)21:09
* jinty is afraid21:09
mgedminif you want FHS-cleanliness, then putting everything except for .so's in /usr/share seems to me to be the easiest way21:09
* tvon hears the lunch bell ring21:11
jintyhmm... perhaps this is just a zope3 packaging issue21:11
* tvon notes that the wifi has been fairly reliable since the meeting ended21:11
tvonit hates me21:11
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jintyafter what you said about the zope3 .so's21:11
jintysounds like zope itself should be installed in /usr/share21:12
jintybut I really am speculating now21:13
mgedminjinty, have you tried to talk with zope 3 folks about FHS?21:13
jintynope, probably a good place to start though. but another day.21:15
* jinty is trying to concentrate on timetabling21:18
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bskahansorry about missing the meeting21:25
bskahanhoped to be able to get here and get setup earlier21:25
th1aSo SB 1.0 external dependencies will be only Python 2.3.4 (2.3.5?)?21:29
mgedminZope 3?21:30
mgedminmaybe libxml2, if we have time to finish restive views21:30
th1aAh, that's what I was wondering.21:30
th1aThat's where you use libxml2?21:31
bskahandroppping PIL?21:31
mgedminyeah, I don't think we need to do image resizing on the server side21:31
th1aWell, we'll probably want to do it eventually.21:31
th1aBut it isn't a priority now.21:31
bskahanthere was actually a UI idea Tom and I were kicking arund that would make it useful21:31
bskahanhaving the user's image visible on all of the pages under that user as context (probably a small thumbnail at the top of the left column)21:32
bskahan /persons/bskahan, /persons/bskahan/calendar /persons/bskahan/@@edit, etc21:33
mgedminsounds nice, but I don't think we'll have time to do that before 1.021:34
th1aYeah.  We should get back to it, especially since schools actually have pictures of everyone.21:34
* bskahan is leeching wifi off the retirement home office21:35
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mgedmin./ now starts the new zope3-based server22:39
mgedminand has a 'manager' user (password: schoolbell)22:39
mgedmingood night22:39
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