IRC log of #schooltool for Sunday, 2005-02-20

d2mmgedmin: nice you added planetzope to your planet list-- thanks for that, i hope it is usefull to you  (the website is at -- the link i gave you before was the rss-feed :)00:36
mgedminah, I wondered why it was so elegantly simple00:57
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tvon|x31go REST01:24
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mgedminunit tests for my javascript:
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Workbliaanyone alive ?20:44
bskahanWorkblia: sure20:59
Workbliawhat would be the easiest way to launch a  non Zope3 version ./ one ?21:00
Workbliai want to lookup some f-nality ....21:01
bskahanusing 0.9?21:01
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bskahan0.9 run ./, there's no way to run a full z3 instance21:03
bskahansvn always runs z3, but you can hide it with the script21:03
Workbliasorry me is zleepy so it kind of hurts when i try thinking ;)21:10
Workbliawould it be difficult to give me a zombie version ? ;)21:10
bskahanwhat release are you using?21:11
Workbliai want to look up the f-nality of one form21:13
Workbliabefore commiting and going home21:13
bskahanfrom svn it will always use z321:21
bskahanmake, then ./ will hide zope321:21
Workbliai see21:30
bskahanWorkblia: got it to work?21:33
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Workbliabut what's the password ? ;)21:50
bskahangood question21:51
bskahanor something like that21:52
Workbliamanager is not working too21:53
bskahanhave to log into manage with gandalf, iirc21:54
Workbliabtw how to forward remote "localhost:4005" to my localhost:4005 ?21:54
Workbliassh fridge -L4005:????:400521:55
bskahanwouldn't fridge:4005 work then?21:55
bskahanlocalhost just pulls up fridge pulls up whatever you put in /etc/hosts21:56
Workbliachannel 2: open failed: connect failed: Connection refused21:56
Workbliassh fridge -L4005:fridge:400521:56
bskahanssh fridge -p 4005 to specify a port on ssh21:58
Workblianot that ...22:03
Workbliasomething weird ...22:03
bskahandon't think I understand the question22:06
Workbliame lame ;)22:07
Workbliathank you for help ;)22:10
Workbliai forgot that some servers can use more than one port when communicating22:10
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rstai'm interested in learning about the relationship objects in SchoolBell - has anyone here been involved with that part of the code?22:22
bskahanrsta: what are you trying to do?22:27
Workbliacan't help you in any way22:27
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bskahanbringing up the dc.* conversation again23:03
bskahanthe more I think about dc.creator, the more I think it will be useful in schooltool23:04
bskahandc.creator and dc.modified reffering to the record of /person/joe23:05
th1aReferring to the record.23:05
th1aI think I see what you're saying.23:05
bskahanfor tracking who modified what, when23:05
bskahanI was initially in the DC is only for documents camp23:06
bskahanbut /persons/joe really is a document23:06
bskahan(moreso in schooltool)23:06
bskahanits a piece of a "student record"23:06
bskahanat least23:06
th1aBut whether or not you use Zope3's DC machinery is perhaps irrelevant.23:06
th1aIf it is an easy way to do it, fine,23:06
th1aif it is harder it doesn't actually gain you much, if anything.23:07
bskahanI'm not sure its easier/harder23:07
th1aIt is probably a toss up.23:07
bskahanas much as existing/not existing23:07
th1aThe main thing, I guess, is not introducing anything that is logically inconsistent.23:07
th1aThe tricky place is where you're getting close to content objects.23:08
* tvon is of the "anything can be content" camp23:09
th1aJust to make sure that there isn't confusion between the dc:creator of the paper and the dc:creator of the assessment of the paper.23:09
bskahanthe assesment would have its own dc.* wouldn't it?23:10
th1aRight, but it might confuse the user if the UI is unclear.23:10
th1aIt just requires some caution.23:10
* bskahan nods23:10
th1aYou might have cases (and this isn't something we'd be working on directly anyhow) where one person is creating a file object to upload someone else's work.23:11
th1aActually, I guess that's the very reason Zope3 explicitly has the Dublin Core stuff, isn't it.23:12
bskahanone of those places DC sucks a bit23:12
* bskahan nods23:12
th1aSo you can explicitly say that the creator of this document isn't the person who uploaded it.23:12
bskahancreator, publisher, and contributors23:13
th1aSo now that I've successfully circled around to the starting point.23:13
bskahanthe DC stuff is useful23:13
bskahanwe just have to make sure its used logically, and consistent across schooltool apps23:13
bskahanplone doesn't do a spectacular job with using DC23:14
bskahanbecause everything gets "creator" assigned to the user uploading23:14
bskahanwe can improve on that23:14
th1aPerhaps we shouldn't use the DC machinery if we don't intend the user to be able to explicitly se it.23:14
th1aset it.23:14
th1aOr we should allow the user to change it.23:15
bskahanI think a use policy would be good, and could make the DC hidden from the user23:15
th1aIf the secretary is entering data created by someone else...23:15
bskahanthen the secretary is the dc.publisher posiibly23:16
th1aSee, this isn't making things easier.23:16
bskahanif they assign an author, that person becomes the dc.creator23:16
bskahanfrustrating, most of the DC data is useful23:17
bskahanyou'd want to know, nearly all the dc info about most objects on the site23:18
* bskahan is reading through to figure out why his annotations are broken23:19
th1aIs there a practical application you're confronting now?23:20
bskahanno, just reading dc source23:20
bskahanrelated to something else23:20
th1aWell, we don't have to make a final decision until we move onto working on SchoolTool proper.23:21
bskahanjust occurred to me23:21
bskahanfigured I'd throw it out there23:21
th1aIt's related to how we're going to handle event logging.23:22
th1aHave you looked at
bskahanI want a backend for epiphany bookmarks23:27
th1aI need to have a clearer explanation of how SchoolTool facets relate to faceted browsing like this.23:27
tvon"no locally stored bookmarks"... would be nifty23:27
bskahanyou could browse groups like that23:31
bskahanvia relationships, not facets23:31
bskahaneg., jonnie -> 9th grade & bio1, in bio1 -> jonnie, susie, bill, bill -> algebra2 with steve who's in 10th grade and in the chorus group with susie from bio123:33
bskahaneventually I see how you could do something similar with facets, but I'm not sure there's much there now23:35
bskahanit would come into some of the higher level school oriented features23:35
rstabskahan: i'm interested in developing a relationship object system for other forms of content23:36
th1aSuch as?23:36
rstacategorized content23:36
bskahanhonor roll23:36
th1arsta: what kind of content?23:37
rstawell starting with blog type content23:37
th1aAnd tracking relationships between posts, like trackbacks?23:38
bskahanthe concept of "honor roll, fall 2005" could be implemented as a group, but it could also be done as facets on the students who are in it (really it would be both because if facetedrelationshipevents)23:38
bskahanrsta: have you looked at the schoolbell.relationship package23:39
bskahanyou may be able to use it directly23:40
th1abskahan:  Using facets just to indicate membership?  Are those facets without attributes, essentially?  This is where I get confused about facets, still.23:40
th1aAre there facets at all in the Z3 SchoolBell yet?23:40
bskahandon't believe so23:40
bskahanI'm not sure there will be23:41
th1aWe haven't actually figured out how they relate to annotations, right?  They're pretty similar, right?23:41
bskahanthey're more complex than annotation23:41
bskahanI'm guessing POV is waying the benefit they give over facets23:41
th1aWe may need an explanation from SteveA.23:41
rstabskahan: that's what i'm hoping - haven't looked at the package yet though23:42
rstais SchoolTool/SchoolBell all in Zope3 yet?23:42
bskahanrsta: progress(tm)23:42
tvonSchoolBell is all z3 in SVN23:43
bskahanyou can add a schoobell application to a Z3 instance23:43
tvonschooltool z3 work has not begun yet23:43
bskahannot all the features from schoolbell 0.9 are working with zope323:43
bskahanbut they're getting there23:43
bskahanrsta: have we spoken about a Z3 weblog in the past?23:44
bskahanI've talked to someone about it23:44
rstabskahan: probably not... but some of the SchoolBell features are very similar to what i've been working on23:45
bskahanmight poke around #zope3-dev during the week, I know 1 or 2 people who want to work on a Z3 weblog system23:45
bskahanth1a: about the honor roll23:46
bskahanyou could have add a facet to the student that indicates when they were on the honor roll, rather than having to search through group memberships23:47
bskahanthe easiest way to create that facet (in schooltool) would be to do it as a side effect of the relationship event23:48
bskahanI beilieve teacher is the only thing that works that way currently23:49
th1aThat seems overly belt and suspenders.23:50
th1aTo the point of being confusing.23:50
rstawhat is a facet?23:50
bskahanrsta: a way to add additional information to an object in schooltool23:51
th1aYou can define facets as chunks of metadata and add them to objects.23:51
th1aBut as you can probably tell from the discussion, their use is somewhat mysterious.23:51
bskahansimilar to annotations in zope3, but I think the big difference is that annotations are intended for metadata and facets where intended as an extension method23:51
th1aYeah, the extension method is what is hard to understand.23:52
bskahanI could be wrong about the intent, but that's my interpretation23:52
rstawhat about using a relationship and a different type of object?23:52
th1abskahan: No, I think you're right.23:52
bskahanth1a: dynamic facets wouldn't be an appropriate use of annotations, for example23:53
bskahanrsta: you could do it that way, but I think using the infomation wouldn't be as simple23:54
bskahanand its wouldn't take advantage of the many-to-many feature of relationships23:54
th1arsta:  It isn't clear to me what you can do with the original SchoolTool facets that you couldn't do with annotations and relationships.23:55
tvonI thought facets were going out the window in favor of annotations?23:55
rstath1a: not sure what exactly an annotation is in this context, but i think i agree23:56
bskahantvon: I think so, but now that I thought about it, how do we add back demographics?23:56
tvonannotations :)23:56
bskahan(I can think of a few ways, none of them involve annotations ;))23:56
tvonan object holding the appropriate information (PersonDemographics() or something)23:57
tvonslapped into an annotation23:57
bskahan'slapped' is where that strikes me23:57
tvonmy z3-foo isn't up to par yet though, so I'm not sure23:58
tvonslapped, placed, whatever :)23:58
rstacan any SchoolBell modules be used outside of Z3?23:58
bskahanI think it gets back to the adapter-oriented foo from the z3 tutorial23:58
bskahanrsta: ical parser probably23:58
bskahanmost other things probably at least require z3 libs installed, but could be used outside z3 otherwise23:59

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