IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2005-02-16

mgedminall schoolbell's unit and functional tests pass again with the latest zope 300:15
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mgedminmy standalone app spike is broken, though00:22
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mgedminwoohoo, yet another calendaring server:
th1aI've got it running here.02:06
th1aI was a bit bummed when I saw that today.02:08
mgedminthey've got good PR02:11
mgedminit's all over the blogosphere02:11
tvonno kidding02:11
th1aNat Friedman is a rock star.02:11
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mgedminwe have some advantages, though02:11
mgedminschoolbell is cross-platform, hula at the moment is linux-only02:11
tvonwould be nice if there was a z3 mailer out there somewhere02:11
mgedminschoolbell has iCal over WebDAV today, for hoola it is still planned02:12
th1aTheir calendaring isn't that far along.02:12
tvonwhats it written in?02:12
th1aOn the other hand, we're going to have to start working on things other than calendaring soon, anyhow.02:12
tvonwe have plans on doing a contact manager at some point02:13
tvonwell...that makes it sound pretty simple :)02:13
th1a"We" meaning Etria?02:13
th1aTheir calendar is oriented around creating meetings.02:14
mgedminit looks like hula is written in C02:14
th1aThere's some C++ in there.02:14
th1aAnd I can't imagine there won't be mono eventually.02:15
mgedminby the way, has anyone tried schoolbell on zope 3 lately?02:15
tvonsince the srichter merge?02:15
mgedminwe fixed all unit and functional tests just before finishing work today02:16
tvonit seems to work fine... z3schoolbell broke here in what I think is an unrelated way02:16
mgedminI noticed that z3schoolbell broke02:16
tvonon hotshot.stats?02:16
mgedmindue to the merge02:16
mgedminre hotshot.stats -- apt-get install python2.3-profiler02:16
mgedminit's a debian/ubuntu issue02:16
tvonhave it, no love02:16
tvonyeah, figured it was ubuntu02:17
mgedminit turned out wasn't DFSG-free, so it was moved into a separate package and placed in nonfree02:17
tvonoh, ignore me, that did fix it02:17
mgedminhowever z3schoolbell tries to import getServicesManager from, and fails02:17
tvonstupid...was testing in 2.4 prompt02:17
tvonah, I've progressed to your traceback02:18
th1atvon:  Are you guys ever going to check in some code?02:18
tvonwell it runs fine in z302:18
tvonth1a: yes02:18
th1aThat's good.  I worry.02:18
tvonI know, I'm sorry we arent' more communicative02:18
tvonare the ZMI actions going to be in the final UI?02:19
* mgedmin thinks we need more PR02:19
tvonview/metadata/etc... I know they won't be there like that exactly, but I noticed the calendar views have them too02:19
mgedminthe open-source world is thirsty for a good calendaring server02:19
tvonwondering if I should bother moving them or not02:19
mgedminmaybe we could get tons of contributors...02:19
tvonmgedmin: I think a SB 1.0 announcement on /. will do a lot02:20
mgedmintvon, fell free to get rid of zmi_views02:20 least it will get a nice anti-zope flame thread going02:20
mgedminwe should resurrect the daily/weekly/monthly/yearly icons on calendar pages02:20
th1aI agree that we need more PR, and I'm going to work on that more seriously once SB 1.0 is out.02:21
tvonI'm tweaking the ui bits right now02:21
th1aGiven the rather extreme nature of the current changes it isn't the best time to try to draw in new people.02:22
mgedminth1a, but do we have to wait for SB 1.0?02:22
mgedminperhaps we could attract interested developers by publishing sneak previews etc02:22
th1aActually, I think it is time to work up the buzz among Zope 3 developers.02:22
th1aI was going to mention that to you.02:22
th1aBut having two separate implementations in one package (or a 0.9 that is quite different than 1.0 internally) seems pretty confusing to the general population.02:23
* mgedmin nods02:23
th1aI was going to suggest that you write an email to the Zope3-dev list and invite people to check out what we're doing.02:24
mgedmingood idea, actually02:26
mgedminI will try to overcome come up with something tomorrow02:26
th1aSchoolBell will be the biggest publically available Zope 3 application, right?02:27
tvonmost interesting at least02:28
mgedmincould be02:28
mgedminlaunchpad is also interesting, but it is not publically available at the moment02:28
mgedminby the way, tomorrow is a national holiday in Lithuania02:29
mgedmindo not be surprised by the lack of checkins02:29
th1aOK.  What's the occasion.02:29
mgedminStatehood Day02:29
tvonshould logins be working?02:29
mgedminRepublic of Lithuania was established on Feb 16, 191802:29
mgedmintvon, don't they?02:30
mgedminalga was working on authentication02:30
mgedminmy understanding was that if you create a schoolbell person with a username and a password02:30
mgedminthen you should be able to use schoolbell's login form to log in as that user02:30
tvonlemme try a fresh Data.fs02:30
mgedminhttp basic auth might interfere with that02:31
tvonOkay, it works fine02:32
* tvon continues to borrow from the Plone UI02:32
* mgedmin slightly dislikes plone's boxy look02:33
* tvon agrees02:33
tvonespecially after looking at Hula...I want to spice SB up a bit02:33
th1aHula's pretty plain.02:33
tvonbut, I'm mostly borrowing layout02:33
th1aPerhaps cleaner.02:33
tvonth1a: is the default install the same as the screenshots on the site?02:34
th1aThey don't try to lay out the events spatially.02:34
th1aIt is just a list, as far as I can tell.02:34
mgedminI just fixed z3schoolbell.py02:47
mgedminhowever reports a test failure02:47
mgedminI removed schoolbell-data.fs, and all tests passed02:50
mgedminbut I reran and one test failed again02:50
mgedminperhaps something is wrong with the database clearing hack in z3schoolbell.py02:50
mgedminhmm02:51 has 11 open connections with a pool_size of 702:51
mgedmina couple of zope3 DatabaseOpenedEvent subscribers leak ZODB connections02:59
mgedminsporadic failures are gone03:01
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mgedmineek, my laptop is running out of RAM03:09
mgedminwhy do zope 3 tests need 400 MB of RAM to run???03:10
mgedmin409, to be precise03:11
mgedminI was running ./ -pv zope in Zope3/03:11
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tvonz3 confusion... how might I get the url to the authenticated users calendar in tal?03:30
mgedmintvon, one moment03:35
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mgedmintal:define="authenticated_sb_person request/principal/schoolbell:person"03:36
mgedmintal:attribute="href authenticated_sb_person/calendar/@@absolute_url"03:37
tvonmgedmin: thanks03:37
mgedminauthenticated_sb_person will be None if the logged in user is a zope 3 principal, or if no one is logged in03:38 already has the 'request/principal/schoolbell:person' bit03:38
tvonDo we have a plan for dealing with z3 principals?03:38
tvondo we care?03:39
mgedminI would like schoolbell's login form to be able to work with z3 principals03:39
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jdubmorning dudes05:38
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th1atvon:  I'm going to do a demo for some teachers at LinuxWorld tomorrow, and I just noticed something.06:18
th1aI created an event in a location, but the event doesn't show up on the location's calendar.06:19
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tvonpytz is in the z3 source tree now18:49
mgedminjinty will be happy, I think18:53
tvonI'm stuck on a busted ftest here.  I changed the main page macro and I'm getting a big ol traceback on login.txt... however the '?' line is the Content-Length18:55
tvon- Content-Length: ... vs + Content-Length: 252918:55
tvonThe ellipsis there is correct, yes?18:56
tvonmy changes are here:
mgedminignore that, the diff generator is not smart enough19:01
tvonignore the ftest error?19:02
mgedminignore that diff line19:02
mgedminI found it best to debug ftests errors like this by removing most of the ftest19:03
mgedminand then adding it back a couple of lines at a time19:03
mgedminuntil I know which lines cause the failure19:03
tvonah, so the '?' on the Content-Length isn't really the issue?19:03
mgedminno, it's a red herring19:04
mgedminSet-Cookie is at fault here19:04
* mgedmin looks at the changes now19:05
mgedminyou only changed the template, right?19:05
mgedminit could be that there was a change made to Zope 3 that now causes functional doctests to include cookie setting headers in the output19:05
mgedminI will try running that test on a clean checkout19:05
tvonIt passes on a clean checkout here19:06
mgedminthen I would like to know which of your changes causes the cookie to be set19:06
mgedmincould you paste the full test output?19:07
mgedminftests pass for me in a clean checkout19:08
tvonI reverted my 1 line change to login.txt btw19:10
tvonhrm, shouldnt have19:11
tvonOkay, this is based on the diff I pasted before:
tvonthe <p> tag line matches with this one19:12
mgedminthe first important diff is the Set-Cookie header19:13
mgedmintry adding Set-Cookie: ... to the ftest and see if it passes now19:13
tvonno question mark, still fails19:16
mgedminyes, please19:18
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mgedminI see, it does not find the 'User: Unauthenticated User' text in the output19:19
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tvon|x31connection crapped out there fora moment19:19
tvon|x31 is with the set-cookie.  it still fails19:19
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tvonahhh,I know what that is19:20
mgedminyou changed page macros19:20
tvonyeah, moved the User....gah19:20
mgedminyou need to remove the 'User: Unauthenticated User' bit from the ftest19:20
mgedminafaics you page macros do not show the title of the principal if it is not a schoolbell person19:21
mgedminwhich is, perhaps, not good19:21
mgedminas now there won't be an indication whether you are logged in as a zope manager, or not19:21
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* tvon reads logs19:36
tvonNo, the macros entirely ignore ZMI users... could put something somewhere to indicate if it is a ZMI user19:37
mgedminyes please19:39
mgedminI think just showing request/principal/title would be enough19:39
tvonhrm.. it's going to display 'Unauthenticated User' for anon views for the time being19:45
tvonreally I just think "Unauthenticated" is a bit too tech for most people19:48
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mgedminhide itm then19:52
mgedminI only want titles of authenticated users19:52
mgedmineven if they are not schoolbell persons19:52
mgedminthere should be a way to determine if request.principal is an authenticated user or not19:52
mgedmindo any of zope3 templates distinguish between them?19:53
tvonnot that I'm finding19:59
tvoner, it has to20:02
mgedminit does that in view code20:04
mgedmin        if IUnauthenticatedPrincipal.providedBy(self.request.principal):20:05
tvonah, rotterdam20:05
tvonwas looking at zopetop20:05
mgedminlook at src/zope/app/security/browser/loginlogout.txt20:05
mgedminok, I suggest the following20:06
mgedminfor now, just display principal/title unconditionally20:06
mgedminI will add a function to the schoolbell TALES namespace20:06
mgedminthen you can modify view_macros to check20:06
tvonSounds good20:06
mgedminby the way, does tal:attributes="href person/calendar/@@absolute_url" work in page templates?20:08
mgedminI think it should, but there might be missing security declarations or other snags20:09
mgedminso if you've already used it in your view macros, and saw that it works, I'd be happy to hear the confirmation20:09
tvonyup, works fine20:09
mgedminok, I will use it as an example in a docstring of SchoolBellAPI20:11
tvonk, it's going in20:15
tvonzmi views removed, personal toolbar improved20:16
tvongoing to walk a dog, bbiab20:16
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mgedminI love unit tests!20:25
mgedminI always say that when I make an incredibly stupid mistake in my code, and tests catch it20:25
mgedmintvon, schoolbell:authenticated is now checked in20:26
* mgedmin accidentally blew up the Zope3 subdir and now has to wait until svn up brings it back20:28
* mgedmin looks at tvon's changes20:37
mgedminblack user name on dark red background is barely visible20:38
mgedminI wonder if I can paste screenshots to
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tvonmgedmin: shift-reload it, the color is set in CSS20:47
tvon(its white)20:47
* mgedmin feels stupid20:49
mgedminI prefered when username was displayed above the red bar, though20:49
mgedminnow it looks like one of the links20:49
mgedminonly the font is different20:49
tvonits going to link to the user page20:50
tvonI just forgot to actually do it20:50
mgedminis it going to be in the same font as the other links?20:51
tvonso did you want Anonymous displayed for anonymous? or nothing?20:51
mgedminI don't much care20:52
mgedminas long as I can distinguish anonymous from zope sample manager20:52
tvonthe differene with ':authenticated' is that it handles the ZMI users as well?20:52
mgedminperhaps this should be documented somewhere20:52
mgedminnot:request/principal/schoolbell:authenticated --> anonymous20:53
mgedminrequest/principal/schoolbell:person -> schoolbell user20:53
mgedminneither -> regular zope user20:53
* mgedmin thinks for a moment20:53
mgedminthere is something called 'principal annotations' in zope20:53
mgedminperhaps it should be used to store schoolbell's user preferences20:54
mgedminthen it would be possible to, e.g., use an LDAP user source20:54
mgedminon the other hand, principals which are not schoolbell users will not have calendars20:54
mgedminthey might have permissions to alter calendars of schoolbell groups/resources, though20:55
tvonthe ZMI vs Schoolbell user thing confuses me a bit20:56
mgedminZope has this notion of 'principals'20:57
mgedminthere is an UnauthenticatedPrincipal20:58
mgedminyou can define your own principals in ZCML files20:58
mgedminyou can define principal folders in ++etc++site20:58
mgedminand schoolbell registers a Zope 3 utility that lets schoolbell persons authenticate as Zope 3 principals20:58
mgedminprincipals are primarily used for security20:59
mgedmina principal is granted a number of permissions20:59
tvonso the SB persons can auth as Z3 principals, but not visa versa?21:00
mgedminSB persons can auth as Z3 principals21:00
mgedminthe question whether Z3 prinipals can auth as SB persons is meaningless21:00
mgedminI think21:00
mgedminbecause there is no such thing as "authenticating as a SB person"21:01
* mgedmin got confused himself21:01
mgedminok, to use the zope 3 security machinery21:01
mgedminsome bit of code has to call request.setPrincipal(principal)21:01
mgedminwe have a bit of code that checks for a username & password stored in a session21:02
mgedminfinds a schoolbell user with that username21:02
mgedminchecks his password21:02
mgedmincreates a temporary Principal object that has a reference to the schoolbell Person object21:02
mgedminand calls request.setPrincipal(temporary_principal_object)21:03
mgedminalga could explain this so much better21:03
mgedminhe was working on authentication21:03
mgedminI can't claim I grok Zope 3 auth21:03
mgedminI see one important use case for a Zope 3 principal defined in zcml/wherever21:04
mgedminwhat if I forget the manager's password?21:04
mgedminit would be nice to be able to define an emergency user and set its password somewhere on the file system21:04
mgedminso that the sysadmin that has access to the server running schoolbell can change the emergency user's password21:05
tvonz2 has a way to do that at least, and I've had to use it before21:05
mgedminand reset manager's password21:05
* mgedmin nods21:05
mgedminthat's exactly what I was thinking about21:05
tvonback to :authenticated..21:06
mgedmindo you have questions?21:07
tvon(authenticated && person) == authed user, (!authenticated && !person) == ZMI user, (!authenticated && person) = anon?21:07
mgedmin(authenticated && person) == authed user, (!authenticated && !person) == anon, (authenticated && !person) = ZMI user21:08
mgedmin(person is not None) implies authenticated21:08
mgedminso, !authenticated -> anon, person -> authed user, authenticated && !person -> ZMI user21:08
tvonah, okay21:08
mgedminI just noticed that weekly, monthly, and yearly calendar icons are the same21:12
mgedminthey all use week.png!21:12
tvonyeah, noticed that... I'll take care of it21:13
mgedminit's a bug in view_macros.pt21:13
mgedminthey all explicitly specify week.png21:13
mgedmintvon, why did you put "My calendar" into the red bar (we need a name for it) instead of the navigation menu?21:20
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tvonI'm thinking of it as a personal toolbar21:28
tvonwell.. left column is "site navigation" and toolbar is "tools specific to me"... but we could put it back in the left nav21:29
tvonred bar == toolbar though, as far as terminology goes21:29
tvonbtw: missing '>' at end of app/browser/
mgedminwhat are tools in schoolbell?21:34
mgedminand what should site navigation box contain?21:34
mgedminthe "Top" is a stopgap measure21:35
mgedminyou can already go to the very top by clicking on the schoolbell logo21:35
tvonjust added that21:35
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* jinty starts to download the latest hoary livecd because 0.9 finally made it to hoary21:38
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tvongoing to paste in what I said while I was unknowingly offline21:54
tvonOkay, in my mind there is "site navigation" that doesnt change much depending on who is looking at it, there are "context actions" (like adding the viewed person to new groups), and "user tasks"21:54
tvon"user tasks" are things you can prefix with 'My ' for the most part (my calendar, my preferences..)21:54
tvonthere is nothing preventing all of this from going inthe left nav, I just think it's sloppy to put it *all* there21:55
tvonbut for SchoolBell we don't have a lot going on in the left nav without it.. maybe Groups/People/Resources21:55
tvonfor SchoolTool there are of course more tasks and site navigation items, but I suppose we will have a whole new set of templates for that21:55
mgedminit might be a good idea to keep the navigation box short22:01
mgedminso that actions do not disappear too far down22:01
mgedminwe could also put calendar navigation into that box22:01
mgedminheh, jwz on "groupware":
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tvonk, on a normal network now.. sorry for poofing off and on there22:55
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tvonshould a ZMI users logout link just be tal:attributes="href string:/@@logout.html" ?23:09
tvonor should the normal schoolbell @@logout.html work for that eventually?23:10
* jinty notices his download is complete, fires up his makefile and prays23:19
tvonwhatcha makin?23:23
jintyLiveCD! based on hoary and 0.923:24
jintyaarrgh! makefile died23:25
tvonmetadata or no, I think groups and resources need descriptions23:26
* mgedmin was playing around with javascript collapsable blog entries on
mgedminI think just @@logout.html should eventually work for ZMI users too23:43
mgedminif it turns out to be infeasible, then will be the time to add complexity to page templates23:44
mgedmindescriptions for groups and resources sound like a reasonable thing to add23:44
mgedmingo for it23:44
tvonI can't think of a good use for descriptions on persons23:45
mgedminI think just adding a Text field to IResource and IGroup will automatically add it to add/edit forms23:45
tvonah, lovely23:45
mgedminthen it's just a line or two in the display templates23:45
tvonyay zope23:45
mgedmin"Hello, my name is foo and I usually work on frobnicating calendars in blah blah blah.  Oh, and here's my calendar."23:46
mgedminprobably not a very convincing use case for IPerson.description23:46
mgedminyesterday I had a thought that the top-level page should be customizable23:46
mgedminso that when you go to http://calendar.mycompany.intranet/23:47
mgedminyou see "Calendars for MyCorp Inc. etc."23:47
mgedmininstead of a generic welcome message with three links23:47
tvonis there a base Z3 document type at the moment?23:48
tvonTTW editable23:48
mgedminI don't think so23:48
bskahandon't want to put the community calendar back on the front page?23:48
tvonthough, in 0.9 we have the public calendar as the pseudo-front page23:48
mgedminbskahan, right, I had forgotten about that23:48
* mgedmin really should start using 0.923:49
bskahando either of you have plone manager access to
bskahanwanted to create a wiki page for usability brainstorming23:49
* mgedmin looks around for th1a23:50
bskahanuseful applications of dynamic javascript in the calendar, etc23:50
mgedminI might have manager access -- I am not completely sure about that23:51
tvonFYI, I'm ditching the 'h1' slot and naming it 'content-header' or something that makes more sense23:51

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