IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-01-25

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tvonis down intentionally?04:54
th1aNot to my knowledge.04:54
tvonI think its been down a while04:59
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mgedmin_Anthony Baxter, the Python release manager says this about timezones:16:12
mgedmin_`anthonyregebro: Really, really, really: Use UTC everywhere, and convert to a timezone at display-time.15:4916:12
mgedmin_`anthonyTimezones are only for display.16:12
mgedmin_`anthonyYou will find your code is much saner and much more robust.16:12
* tvon nods16:14
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tvonmgedmin: have you looked into z3 generations much yet?16:33
tvonI'm wondering if we should go ahead and create a migrations/ directory with scripts for each iteration16:34
tvonand maybe toss a method into main.prepareDatabase that checks what version we have and what migrations need to be done16:35
mgedminI have looked at the generations proposal a while ago, but not recently16:37
mgedminit sounds like a good idea16:38
mgedminnew_application_object = upgrade0_8to0_9(old_application_object)16:38
jintybskahan: my problem last night boils down to one question, what happens when schooltool 0.9 starts up and finds a 0.7 database? Is this different from what happens when 0.9 finds a 0.8 database? (hmm.. ok, 2)16:42
bskahanat the moment its not different16:44
bskahanthat's something I want to change16:44
mgedminI wish we had added an attribute application_root_object.db_version = '0.8' when we released 0.816:44
tvonyeah, having the version in there would be nifty16:44
mgedminbut back then we thought db backwards compatibility was not important before 1.016:45
tvonI think generations solves that16:45
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bskahanin schooltool.main there's the choke point between 0.6 and 0.7, I want to add one between 0.7 and 0.816:45
bskahanunless we know that it always works16:45
jintybskahan: so, in otherwords, 0.9 is compatible with databases from 0.7 and 0.8?16:46
bskahanthat's why I want to add something16:46
jintybtw: if you add a number that has to be changed at release time, pleas make sure I know about it16:47
bskahandon't think there's anything like that16:47
* jinty goes to find out what happens to /vawhen 0.16:48
jintyok, so 0.9 will be compatible with 0.8, but not 0.9?16:49
jintychange second 0.9 to 0.716:49
bskahancompatible is a bad word16:49
bskahanthere's some degree of migration from 0.8 to 0.916:50
bskahanbut some data will be lost16:50
* mgedmin dreams about a functional test for 0.8 to 0.9 migration16:50
jintyand 0.7 > 0.9 is a lost cause?16:50
bskahanso far16:51
bskahanunless it magically worked from 0.7 -> 0.816:51
jintydoubt that...16:51
* mgedmin imagines a small Data.fs created with 0.8 checked into the repository, and a python script that makes a copy of that Data.fs, starts the server, and then verifies that the conversion succeeded. The script is not run by default when you do 'make ftest' as it could be time consuming16:52
* jinty dreams of packages not including zope 3;)16:54
* tvon dreams of ponies and butterflies16:57
tvonDid we come to a decision IRT X3.0 vs X3.1?16:58
tvonIIRC it seemed clear that we had to use 3.0 if we wanted to get the package in where we want to get it in (eg, Ubuntu main)16:58
tvonin which case, are there z3 packages for debian at the moment?16:59
mgedminI would prefer 3.1, but if it is not released in time, I have no qualms about going back to 3.017:00
jintyhow much work would it be?17:01
mgedminnot much, I hope17:01
mgedmindid zope 3.0 have a working pluggable authentication service?17:02
mgedminwe were planning to base schoolbell's authentication on that17:02
mgedminif we can't, we will have to find another solution17:02
tvon3.1 has some nice additions that aren't in 3.0 as I understand it.  It will be hard to not use them17:03
jintyit would also be nice to keep options open.17:03
* jinty doesn't like the complaining part of release manager17:04
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bskahanmgedmin: pau wasn't released with 3.017:08
bskahannot sure if that means it didn't work17:08
mgedminhow can it work if it isn't there?17:18
bskahanit was in subversion17:19
bskahannot sure why it didn't get released17:19
mgedminI do not like that zope 3.0 subversion differs from zope 3.0 release tarball17:21
tvonheh, yeah.  I saw some discussion about that on z3-dev, did they "fix" that?17:21
bskahanpau got renamed today17:23
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bskahanso using svn for development might be a pain to back down to 3.0 for a release later17:23
mgedminif we decide to stick with 3.0, we should change the svn:externals property to point to the 3.0 branch soon17:24
* bskahan nods17:24
bskahanI think we have to17:25
mgedminif jinty tells me that there is no chance to get schoolbell 1.0 in ubuntu without switching to 3.0, I will do that now17:25
bskahanthe impression I got was that 3.1 will release well after the end of february, but I could be wrong17:25
jintywoah! schoolbell will be in ubuntu, the question is whether it should be in supported or not17:26
bskahanwhat is ubuntu's EOL?  18 months?17:26
tvonCan it get into 'main' using a z3 svn snap?17:26
th1aI don't think we're going to be ready to get in main.17:27
jintytvon: there is no 'main' in ubuntu, supported or universe17:27
tvonjinty: then by 'main' I mean 'supported'17:27
th1aI don't think we will be ready to be supported.17:28
* mgedmin nods17:28
* jinty nods17:28
th1aWe should think longer term.17:28
tvonOkay, then 3.0 is a moot point I think17:29
jintya moment tvon: schoolbell 1.0 packages will contain a lot of zope17:30
jintylater, the schooltool 1.0 packages will come and need to use schoolbell modules and zope17:31
jintybut the two zopes will be different if we continue as now.17:31
jintythen things get very messy.17:32
th1aWe'll have to put out SchoolBell 1.1 packages when Zope 3.1 comes out.17:32
bskahanaren't we going to run into debian versioning problems again that way?17:32
jintyIm trying to avoid that.17:33
jintyth1a: so what you are saying is that schoolbell 1.1 and schooltool 1.0 are released out when zope 3.1 is released?17:36
th1aI'm just brainstorming here.17:36
bskahanwhat was the target date for ST 1.0?17:36
th1aZope 3.1 should be out long before ST 1.0 (September 2005).17:37
* bskahan nods17:37
th1aAnd really, SchoolTool is the greater priority in the long run.17:37
jintywill there be releases of schooltool in between, i.e. 0.10 ...?17:38
jintyand these will need a copy of the schoolbell and zope modules around17:39
th1aWe will release "SchoolTool Calendar" in the spring, which will just be SchoolBell plus the existing timetable and attendance functionality.17:39
th1ajinty:  I imagine so.17:39
th1amgedmin understands how the parts will fit together better than I do.17:40
jintymgedmin: proposal, only increment the zope trunk revision on releases of schoolbell.17:42
jintyand ship zope in schoolbell only17:43
th1aI do think we'll standardize on 3.1 for a while.17:46
th1aMy impression is that there are a lot of improvements in 3.1.17:46
th1aEnough to make it worth the bother, but after that we should be more sane.17:46
bskahanI agree with that assesment of 3.1, but I'm concerned about it not being released when schoolbell 1.0 comes out17:49
* jinty thinks he should relax a bit. Maybe drink less coffee....17:50
th1aThat is the problem.17:50
jintyis there an ETA for 3.1?17:50
bskahannot really17:50
th1aBut I don't want to spend time rewriting our Z3.0 code to use features in Z3.117:50
th1aThis is why SchoolTool originally wasn't dependent on Zope 3 :-)  Too much of a moving target.17:51
th1aHowever, I'm much more worried about getting to where we need to be in six months.  If we carry bloated .debs for a few months, it is ok with me.17:52
th1aAnd I'm not worried about getting out of Debian unstable in the next few months.17:53
th1aWe're just unstable.17:53
th1aAt this point.17:53
jintyI agree, with the bloat comes complexity and bugs, I have proved it.17:54
bskahan3.1 thread17:54
th1aI'll defer to mgedmin's judgment about whether or not we should use 3.0 or 3.1 right now.  He knows way more about it than me.17:55
* mgedmin reading backlog for past 40 minutes18:26
mgedminI'd like to defer to jinty's judgment18:33
mgedmin3.1 would be nicer, but I don't think 3.0 will be too bad18:34
bskahanmgedmin: new_person.calendar = old_person.calendar will work?18:34
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* jinty will think about it a while and give an answer later.18:35
mgedminbskahan, let me think a bit18:35
mgedminyou'd also have to also do new_person.calendar.__parent__ = new_person18:36
mgedminiterate over all events, find those that have an owner attribute, and replace them18:37
mgedminsame for context18:37
mgedminit would be simpler to just do18:38
mgedminfor event in old_person.calendar:18:38
mgedmin    if event.owner: event = event.replace(owner=old_to_new_object_map[event.owner]18:38
mgedmin    if event.context: event = event.replace(owner=old_to_new_object_map[event.context]18:38
mgedmin    new_person.calendar.addEvent(event)18:38
mgedminassuming you have a dict 'old_to_new_object_map' that contains all persons and resources at least18:39
mgedmin(there was a bug in my second if statement)18:39
jintyassumption 1: zope 3.1 will be out before schooltool 1.018:42
jintyassumtion 2: we are not trying to be in any kind of stable/supported distro before schooltool 1.018:43
jintythen we can continue moving towards zope 3.1.18:44
jintybut, I need some stability for the packaging.18:44
jintyspecifically I need schooltool releases to be compatible with the zope and schoolbell libraries in the previous schoolbell release18:45
jintyTherefore I would propose to freeze the zope external revision between schoolbell releases. Until 3.1 comes around, then stick with that.18:46
jintyfor a while.18:47
th1aThat sounds reasonable to me.18:47
jintyAnd this will only need to start from the release of schoolbell 1.0.18:50
jintygreat mgedmin?18:51
mgedminsounds reasonable19:00
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th1aTime to go dig out again, they plowed under the corner in front of my house last night.19:58
* tvon thinks th1a is just building snow forts19:58
tvon"dig out the car", indeed19:59
jintyDo we have to copy *.js files to the package as well?20:02
mgedminI think so20:03
jintyoh dear20:04
jintypoint of information: all of the functional tests pass if the schoolbell.js file is missing. but the web interface is broken.20:07
tvonmhm, whoops20:08
* bskahan misses the battery applet from ubuntu warty20:13
tvoncpufreq got some new icons20:22
tvonas did volume applet20:22
jintykudos, I think the new ui looks really good.20:31
* jinty will be going home soon and not able to be around tomorrow20:32
jintyjust in case someone was thinking of releasing 0.920:33
bskahanjinty: thanks20:34
bskahanmgedmin: do you want to add a database version attribute now?20:40
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mgedminbskahan: yes20:48
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