IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2005-01-17

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th1aOK, looks like we are all here.18:00
bskahanHey everyone18:00
th1aI got an email from Jeff Waugh this morning.18:01
tvonirt ubuntu?18:01
th1aHe's the Hoary release manager.18:01
th1aWe've been trying to nail down what we'd need to do to get into the Hoary release.18:02
th1aBasically, we'd have to do a feature freeze by Feb. 28.18:03
th1aIn terms of calendaring features, I'm willing to go with whatever we've got at that point.18:03
th1aThe question is how far into the Zope 3 work will we be at that point?18:04
* jinty thinks feature freeze == -rc218:04
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th1aWhat do you mean jinty?18:04
bskahanI think we're looking at 0.10 or 1.0 for Hoary, right?18:05
th1aSorry, this would be 1.0.18:05
tvonThis is all to get 1.0 into Hoary, right?18:05
tvonand there will be no 0.10 then I take it?18:05
tvon(just to be clear)18:06
jintywell, "feature freeze" means no new unstable stuff going in, which is exactly what the release candidates should be18:06
algaI'm very sceptical that we can do it.18:06
th1aalga:  So am I.18:06
tvona 0.10 for hoary would be an alternative, if its doable to squeeze in a stable release before 1.018:07
th1atvon:  yes.18:07
th1aAlthough I'm not sure a 0.10 would go in Hoary main.18:07
mgedminbut 1.0 would?18:07
mgedminwhat is the difference?18:07
tvonthere are many lesser developed packages in hoary.  Granted it might be the difference between universe and main.18:08
jintyubuntu gives a promise of support for the stuff in main18:08
tvonwhich I guess is the point18:08
jintya 1.0 release sounds more like we would support it18:09
bskahanuniverse is just pulled from debian unstable18:09
bskahanif I understand correctly18:09
th1aAnd the 0.10 release would still be in the middle of an architectural overhaul.18:10
jintybskahan: yes, among other sources18:10
bskahanhoary is almost less of a target platform than Debian (Sarge) and Redhat/Suse18:10
bskahanin terms of what I expect to see in school deployments18:11
bskahanat least in the US18:11
th1aWell, we have certain organizational priorities...18:11
mgedminstill, schooltool on ubuntu live cd is nice for demos18:11
* bskahan agrees18:11
jintyFor whatever we release as 1.0: We have to answer the question would we be able to support it in the medium term (2-3 years)?18:12
jintymgedmin: work in progress18:12
th1aWe'll have to support it.18:12
th1aSo... we've got alga's estimate of 48 man-days for Zope 3 views.18:13
th1aI'll need to know how many man-days POV can give the project between now and the end of February.18:14
mgedminwe're thinking about an alternative path18:15
mgedmininstead of working on schooltool code base18:15
th1aTo views?18:15
mgedminwe could create a new schoolbell package18:15
mgedminand move components from schooltool to schoolbell18:15
mgedminconverting views to zope3 as we move the components18:15
mgedminsince schoolbell does not need everything from schooltool18:16
mgedminwe would have less views to convert18:16
th1aI like that.18:16
th1aI would like SchoolBell to _not_ have extra stuff in it.18:16
* mgedmin too18:16
algawe're rewriting the proposal along these ideas now18:16
jintymgedmin: schoolbell module == schoolbell source package?18:17
algajinty: not exactly, but yes18:18
mgedminI think, eventually, yes18:18
th1aI'm going to start putting the whole timeline together on GNOME Planner:
bskahanwe use that internally18:19
th1aAnd it doesn't blow up on you?18:20
jintyth1a: Could you pencil in a release candidate 1 on 28Feb and a final version 2 weeks later (If the work can be done by then)18:21
bskahanthe sql backend isn't production ready, otherwise we could share one DB18:21
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th1ajinty:  That's what I'd like to see.18:21
jintyperhaps we can also divide features into critical/nice to have18:22
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* mgedmin will curb his urge to refactor every internal detail and will focus on getting the schoolbell functionality moved to the new package and ported to zope318:22
jintydefinition: critical - no release without it.18:22
mgedminis "no dependency on Twisted" critical?18:23
th1aI think.18:23
mgedmin(I think it is, but it could be argued that end-user does not care)18:23
jintymgedmin: support18:23
th1aI don't want 1.0 to be in the middle of a transitional state, architecturally.18:24
bskahanfrom the 'support it for 2 -3 years'18:24
tvonI think the end user doesnt care but we don't want to support that18:24
th1aAnd attracting developers is the underlying motivation for creating SchoolBell.18:24
th1aSo it should make sense under the hood, too.18:24
mgedminby the way, what is support -- security bug fixes, regular bug fixes, troubleshooting user problems on the mailing list, all of the above?18:25
tvongood question18:25
* jinty thinks18:25
th1aI don't think any of the additional calendaring features are "critical."18:26
bskahandate format18:26
bskahanand time zone18:26
* jinty debian stable version = security bugfix only (minimal patches)18:26
mgedminsame for ubuntu18:26
jintysame people, ame philosophy18:27
bskahanth1a: time zone, because we need it here.  date format because people in the US won't use it without AM/PM18:27
th1aOK.  But regardless, you guys (Etria) should have time to do that stuff.  The time crunch is on POV's Zope 3 work.18:28
* bskahan nods18:28
tvonPOV was going to do TZ.  Was there a specific plan in mind for it?18:29
mgedminnot really18:29
mgedminI think etria can do it18:29
mgedminwe should really coordinate a lot on irc18:29
jintycritical feature: full database upgradability18:29
tvonwhich makes the twisted question somewhat moot18:30
mgedminjinty, I think we have decided that partial upgradability is enough18:30
jintyfrom 1.0?18:30
mgedmin(partial from 0.9 to 1.0)18:30
mgedmin(full from 1.0 to all future versions)18:30
mgedminbskahan, tvon: what are your usual working hours?18:31
bskahan10am EST - 7pm EST18:31
mgedminEST is what UTC offset?18:31
mgedminthat's 17:00 to 02:00 EET18:32
th1aWe might start needing to set our alarms earlier.18:32
bskahanone of us usually works earlier and one later, but thats the window we're both here18:32
th1aI knew it would come to this.18:32
th1aSooner or later.18:33
tvonWe should all just live off of UTC :)18:33
mgedminwe usually sit in the office to 22:00 EET (18:33
mgedminthat's 3 pm EST if I'm not mistaken18:33
mgedmin50% overlap is not too bad18:33
bskahanat least one of use can start work by 15 EET normally18:34
* bskahan nominates tvon18:34
tvonof course18:35
tvonmgedmin: when do you start normally?18:35
tvonor when is POV generally available on IRC?18:35
mgedminit varies18:35
mgedminlately I've been trying (not always successfully) to start earlier18:36
mgedminbut it is really no problem to start later :-)18:36
th1aOK, so while POV is working on their revised proposal, figuring out if we can possibly meet this deadline, let's talk about what Etria needs to do now.18:36
jintythe merge to get 0.9 out the door18:37
th1aWhat's the current status of migrating the UI branch to the trunk?18:37
tvonSome of what we do will depend on what POV is putting aside in favor of the Z3 merge18:37
bskahanI need a day to fix the ftests18:37
th1aLet's assume for the moment that POV will only be able to work on Z3 stuff.18:37
th1aThat seems like a safe assumption.18:38
tvonI figure what we do will depend on what POV won't be able to due to the z3 work18:38
bskahanthe merge is otherwise done, everything works in the web interface and those tests pass18:38
jintywould it help stop the churn if POV worked on a branch until 0.9?18:38
mgedminjinty, can you just ignore the src/schoolbell subdirectory when releasing 0.9?18:38
th1aI think that's the idea.18:38
mgedminthen we can start copying things into src/schoolbell and not touch anything outside it18:39
mgedminuntil 0.9 is released18:39
jintymgedmin: yes18:39
jintyjust leave it out of the tarballs?18:39
th1aOK, then first priority for Etria is to get 0.9 out the door.18:39
th1aThat means adding the "minimal" db upgrade hooks.18:40
th1aAnd doing the "minimal" SchoolTool UI work.  Making sure features don't disappear between SchoolTool 0.8 and 0.9.18:41
mgedminjinty, yes18:41
mgedminthat may be tricky18:41
mgedminas far as I understand, all changes in the ui branch were merged, so schooltool is now schoolbell18:41
mgedmin(e.g. the root group is renamed to 'community')18:42
* bskahan nods18:42
bskahanwhy does that make it tricky?18:43
* tvon figured the s/root/community/ was fine for schooltool anyways18:43
mgedmindoesn't schoolbell's ui hide functions that were available in schooltool 0.8?18:43
bskahanthought you were talking about the renaming of the root group18:44
mgedmin<th1a> And doing the "minimal" SchoolTool UI work.  Making sure features don't disappear between SchoolTool 0.8 and 0.9.18:44
mgedminotoh you had plans to use separate page template directories for schooltool 0.9 and schoolbell 0.9, no?18:44
mgedminso maybe that's not too tricky18:44
th1aIt doesn't seem tricky.18:45
bskahanI think we're ok18:45
SteveAth1a: just talking to james troup about the schooltool server18:45
bskahanafter doing schooltool UI work we diverge more from the shared UI than we did this time18:45
bskahanschooltool UI work will involve replacing references to 'groups' with 'classes', 'forms', 'teams' etc18:46
th1aAt the risk of incurring the wrath of jinty, I'd really like to jam this into 0.9, because it is a pretty big omission:
algath1a: according to our estimates, we should be done in 4 weeks18:48
algathis leaves us 1.5 weeks to do something else18:49
bskahanth1a: ok18:49
bskahanI hate the current placement of the iCal link, we'll move it to the content well and make context based18:49
th1aalga:  Is that just views, or everything Z3 related on
tvonwe were going to add in an icon to link to the claendars listed in the merged calendars portlet, there might be enough room to squeeze in an ical icon as well18:50
bskahanso the link is to whatever calendar your looking at, not "whoevers looking's calendar"18:50
jintyth1a: :) the 0.9 release looks more and more like it will be about the dame time as 1.018:50
mgedminth1a, everything, that I can see18:51
mgedminwe will have schoolbell that runs on top of zope 3 with no trace of twisted18:51
mgedminwe will not yet have schooltool that runs on top of zope 318:51
tvonif we want to squeeze out 0.9 we could split the zpt directories for st/sb so that st UI looks pretty much like it did in 0.818:51
bskahantvon: I don't think the difference is substantial enough for that18:52
th1atvon:  I'm ok with that.18:52
th1amgedmin:  So we'll have a SchoolBell that can be installed into a Zope 3 app as you describe on the wiki page?18:53
th1aSteveA:  Any news on the server?18:53
mgedminth1a, yes, although I think it is more important to have a standalone schoolbell that does not require end users to play with Zope 3 management views to set up18:54
th1aAnd we'll be able to do both?18:55
mgedminnote: we plan to rip out RESTive views from schoolbell (or, rather, not port them to zope 3 during this milestone)18:55
mgedminthey are not necessary for a calendaring server18:55
mgedminth1a, ideally, yes18:56
tvonthey proide some interesting possabilities with xmlhttprequest in the UI though18:56
th1aCould you use part of that 1.5 weeks to put the RESTive views in?18:56
mgedmingood point18:57
th1aIt's just that our architecture doesn't make much sense without the REST api.18:57
tvoner, "they provide".  I'm having keyboard issues here18:57
th1aWe go to a lot of trouble to create it, and it is the most innovative part of the design.18:58
SteveAth1a: there is a server.  it is set up and running.  the admin-to-be of this server and james troup need to talk about the level of access / admin required on it and that kind of thing.18:58
mgedminit is an integral part of schooltool, yes18:58
mgedminI thought having two slightly diffent RESTive APIs for SchoolTool and SchoolBell might be confusing18:58
mgedminI hadn't thought about client-side scripting with them in schoolbell18:59
th1aSteveA:  How should I get in touch with him?18:59
th1amgedmin:  This is also an introduction to our cool platform to developers, so I'd like SB 1.0 it to include the major features of the platform.19:00
jintyAbout zope3, we must plan that there is no zope3 package for 0.9 or 1.0. But I don't want to include all of zope 3 in the package. Can someone send me a list of the minimum required top level modules?19:01
bskahanI have to run19:01
mgedminth1a, you have convinced me19:02
SteveAhe is elmo on irc here.  or mail james.troup at canonical.com19:02
th1abskahan: Right.  Our hour is up.19:02
th1aSo I should expect a propposal from POV?19:02
mgedminmy understanding is this: pov now starts working on zope3 migration by moving components into src/schoolbell; pov does not work on 0.9 release requirements, but provides advice on irc/email19:03
mgedminwe will send you the proposal today, after some final polishing19:04
th1amgedmin:  Cool.19:04
tvonBrian expects to be ready for a 0.9 on friday.  thats with ST UI fixes, ftests and the restive work19:04
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mgedminjinty, top level required modules should be those that are included in src/ in schoolbell-ui branch or in earlier versions of schooltool19:04
mgedminjinty, don't listen to me19:05
th1atvon:  Let's do a short contract that's just this transitional stuff, last week's work and this week's work.19:05
tvonth1a: thats fine.  We'll do one for 0.9 wrap-up and one for 1.0 work19:05
th1aOK.  You're all excused ;-)  Thanks, folks.19:07
tvonalright, I have to split as well.  I'll send you the 0.9 contract tomorrow19:07
th1aI have to take my car to the shop.  TTYL.19:07
tvonbye all19:07
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mgedminjinty, my suggestion: recursively grep schooltool sources for 'from zope', take the list of packages that we import directly, then look at DEPENDENCIES.cfg files inside those zope 3 packages19:08
mgedmineverything that schooltool 0.8 had + new packages from zope19:09
jintyIf i run the functional test, will i be sure i have them all?19:09
mgedminzope 3 has a dependency tool of some sort19:09
mgedminI don't think our functional tests are very complete :(19:11
jintyoh dear!19:11
mgedminhowever unit tests will catch all missing dependencies19:11
jintyok - then that. I will have to make tarballs by hand this time:(19:12
SteveAth1a, mgedmin: ping19:24
mgedminSteveA, pong19:25
SteveAi've asked elmo (james troup) to pop onto this channel19:25
SteveAhe will come here in 30 mins19:26
mgedminwhat's the plan?19:27
mgedminwho is going to administer schooltool's server?19:27
SteveAjames proposed to me that he and the rest of the canonical admin team only have root on the server19:31
SteveAsomeone from schooltool gets a user account on there19:31
SteveAwould that work?19:31
* mgedmin shrugs19:33
mgedminwill I have to do any system administration on that server, or will someone else do it?19:33
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th1aAh,  I won't be here.19:40
th1a"someone" usually means me.19:41
th1aUnless mgedmin wants it.19:41
th1aI at least would like to be able to install Zope products.19:41
th1aI should be able to handle the whole thing, though.19:42
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SteveAmgedmin: so, assume that tom will do that admin.  can you work out with elmo what level of access tom needs?19:58
mgedminplone user + enough filesystem access to download and untar plone products20:00
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elmomgedmin: steve told me to talk to you and tom hoffman - is he around, or shall I just talk with you?20:09
mgedmintom hoffman is not here now, so there's only me20:09
mgedminI'm the current sysadmin on schooltool servers20:09
mgedmintom hoffman manages the plone instance20:09
mgedminwhat's the plan?20:10
elmoI dunno, I was going to ask you that :)20:10
mgedminI was afraid of that :)20:10
elmofirst of all.. what are your hardware requirements?  and desires?20:10
jintyone day we might have some live cd's - ubuntu based. Somewhere to put them would be nice.20:11
mgedmincurrently resides on a 2.8 GHz P4 with 1GB RAM20:11
mgedminthere's also a roundup instance ( that steve set up and I haven't gotten around to moving it to the new server20:12
mgedminI do not think we want to move the subversion repository (
mgedminah, I forgot mailman for mailing lists20:13
mgedminquestion: who is going to set up these things (zope+plone, roundup, mailman) on the new server?20:14
elmohmm, can you list what services you have and what you want to move?20:15
* mgedmin wishes it will not be he20:15
elmozope+plone ==> website?  moving?20:15
mgedminservices: web (plone), bug tracker (roundup), mailing list (mailman), source control (subversion)20:16
mgedminwe want to move everything except subversion20:16
elmowhy not subversion?20:16
mgedminat least that's my understanding20:16
mgedminbecause it is right in my office and checkouts are fast :)20:16
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mgedminI have no strong objections to moving subversion20:16
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* mgedmin is not the person that wants to move everything20:17
* mgedmin would be happy if he didn't have to do anything extra20:17
mgedminoth, /me will be happy if he will not have to administer services any more20:17
elmowhat about the demo stuff?  stevea was talking about a demoserver?20:18
mgedminright, I had completely forgotten20:18
elmodemo instance of school tool I mean20:18
mgedminwe have an ancient version of schooltool running in a user mode linux instance20:18
elmooh, and do you guys have any stats on bandwidth usage?20:19
mgedminI don't think so20:20
elmobut I assume you don't have like an OC-3 anyway, so it can't be that much?20:20
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mgedminsteve would know20:21
mgedminI'm just sysadmining the machines because steve doesn't have time for that20:21
mgedminwe have apache logs, so bandwidth stats can probably be reconstructed20:22
mgedminbut I never found the time to set up webalizer or something20:22
elmono prob20:23
mgedminoh, I had forgotten20:26
mgedminwe have an ancient zope3 instance at checkins.schooltool.org20:26
elmodoing what?20:27
mgedminand irc logs on produced by supybot and a python log->html script20:27 shows subversion checkins20:27
mgedminit is not essential20:27
elmoyou want to run an irc bot on the new machine?20:27
mgedminI'm just listing out all schooltool related services that I can think of20:28
mgedminviewcvs on source.schooltool.org20:28
mgedmina cron script that does nightly source snapshots and scp's them to a server, where they are forgotten (earlier they used to be available on the web)20:29
mgedminlater we moved to a different machine and decided nightly snapshots weren't urgent20:30
mgedminwe had a schooltool meeting in london, and bounced around ideas about subversion commit hooks that run test suites20:30
mgedminbut this is not implemented yet20:30
mgedminI think now I've listed everything schooltool related that I can think of20:31
mgedminoh, there are nightly backups ;)20:31
* mgedmin wishes stevea would say which of those things have to be moved20:32
elmosteve's gone20:35
elmoanyway, ok, I now have an idea of the services at least..20:37
elmooh, yes, how much disk space are you guys using?20:37
mgedminthese services are distributed on three different machines20:37
mgedminlet me see20:37
mgedmin0.5 gig for the website (Data.fs wasn't packed for ages)20:38
mgedmin4 gigs for schooltool demo, although thats a 0.5 gb UML disk image + 3 backup copies of earlier versions of that, that can be deleted20:39
mgedmin60 megs for subversion repository20:39
mgedmin~25 megs mailman archives20:41
mgedmin3 megs roundup20:41
elmook, so basically not much :-)20:41
elmocool, thanks.. I'll need to discuss stuff with Steve some more I guess20:45
mgedmindo you know my email?20:45
mgedminin case you have any questions and I'm not on irc20:45
elmohmm, think so, yep20:47
mgedminno problem20:47
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mgedminunpleasant side effect of having use-commit-times = yes in ~/.subversion/config21:08
mgedminif you modify a file and later do svn revert, it restores the timestamp as well, and python thinks the corresponding .pyc file is up to date, even though it isn't21:09
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