IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-01-11

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* bskahan concludes gvimdiff is more useful than svn merge05:14
tvonth1a: ayt?07:55
tvonWhen is the event that you want to demo the Atom Notes in?07:55
bskahanhey tom09:45
bskahanjust sent you a planet.schooltool tarball09:45
th1aI see.09:45
* th1a just woke up after being stricken with some kind of bug this evening.09:46
* bskahan is heading to bed shortly09:47
th1aI just got a headache and _really_tired_.  Nothing too horrible.09:47
bskahanover now?09:47
bskahanI always assume short illnesses are some form of food poisoning ;)09:48
th1aUh... apparently.  Now I have to try to go back to sleep.09:48
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jintymgedmin: ayt?18:56
jintyabout depending on zope.18:57
jintyIve been in contact with the zope3 maintainer18:57
jintywho is graciously going to split up the zope package into pieces18:58
jintythe interfaces are already a separate package,18:58
jintybut what other pieces of zope will/are we going to need18:58
mgedminthe tarball of zope x3 3.0.0 release contains a lot of separate pieces inside18:59
mgedminwith explicit dependency descriptions in zpkg config files18:59
mgedminbut those bits might be much too granular for debian packages18:59
mgedminre: your question: that is not finalized yet18:59
mgedminprobably all of zope 319:00
mgedminwe will not depend on things like buddyfolder or z3checkins that are currently bundled with zope 319:01
jintyok, rephrase, what pieces can he definately leave out?19:01
mgedmindo we need to answer this now?19:01
mgedminthe zope 3 transition is not yet finished19:02
mgedminwe can't tell exactly which bits of zope 3 we will find useful and which bits we will leave19:02
mgedminas a rule of thumb, I think it is safe to say that we will not depend on things that are add-ons to zope 319:02
mgedmin(e.g. zwiki)19:03
mgedminwe will support zwiki (tom wanted a demo of that), but schooltool will not break if zwiki is not present on the system19:03
mgedminthings that are not parts of zope 3 core (although it is hard to define what the core is)19:03
jintyOk, so basically we depend on "core zope" if there is such a thing.19:04
mgedminto clear up any misunderstandings, we will depend on things that are within zope.app19:04
jintyand add ons like zwiki/ZEO/z3checkins/buddyfolder can be left out19:04
mgedmin(there is a clear sepearation in zope: things outside are reusable without the rest of zope and must not depend on things within
jintyok, That sounds good. Do you mind if I send a log of this conversation to the zope maintainer?19:05
mgedminno problem19:09
mgedminhave you seen yet?19:09
jintyno - but then I am always a little slow:)19:10
jintyAh! - very nice!19:11
* mgedmin is very proud19:11
jintySolves a big problem of mine that I cannot be online a lot. Thanks!19:12
jintyHow fast does it refresh?19:12
mgedminevery 5 minutes19:13
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mgedminif you strip the .html you should get a plain-text log file that is updated constantly19:13
th1amgedmin: Did you announce that to the list?19:14
jintysomple and very usefull - cool19:14
* th1a is updating the link on the SchoolTool website.19:15
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SteveAth1a: look at the "generations" stuff in zope3 for upgrading zodb schemas and code21:37
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mgedminth1a, I didn't21:45
mgedmingood idea21:45
mgedminbtw I mentioned z3 generations (with a link) during yesterday's meeting21:45
th1aWe'll be using them post SB 1.0, I assume.21:46
th1aIs this in Zope 3 yet?21:46
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mgedminit might be best to officially declare that SB 1.0 is generation 1 in the database21:47
mgedminafter that, we will increment the generation number for each schooltool/bell release and add migration scripts to the code21:47
th1aThe question is, what's the most expedient hack to provide minimal upgrades from 0.8 to 0.9?21:48
mgedminschooltool or schoolbell?21:48
mgedmindoesn't matter21:48
mgedmina few judiciously placed class attributes and __setattr__ methods21:49
mgedminplus some code in Server.ensureAppExists (if I remember the class and method name correctly)21:49
th1aIs it still fairly easy if SchoolBell 0.9 comes from the trunk?21:49
mgedminI'm not sure21:50
mgedminit might be harder21:50
th1aSooner or later we're going to have to switch to the more Z3 oriented code, which I imagine is a rougher transition.21:50
mgedminI'm not following you21:51
mgedminare you saying that SB 1.0 should support upgrades from 0.8 and 0.9?21:51
mgedminI don't understand what "minimally" means in this context21:52
th1aMove your persons, groups, resources and their calendars.21:52
th1aIt doesn't seem like anyone is seriously using SchoolBell in production.  Except maybe you guys.21:53
mgedminok, if we don't care about absences, event log utilities, relationships, timetables, etc, etc21:53
mgedminthen it is not so difficul21:53
mgedminthen it is not so difficult21:53
mgedminand the easiest way is to write a conversion script in ensureAppExists21:53
mgedminthat would recreate new objects with data extracted from old objects21:53
mgedminrather than trying to add missing attributes etc. in old objects21:54
mgedminit would be safer21:54
mgedminnote that when we first write such a conversion function21:54
mgedminwe should stick in a new attribute with explicitly stating the database version21:55
mgedminso that in future releases do not need to guess whether the data format is from 0.8 or 0.921:55
mgedminzope 3 generations is one way to do that21:55
mgedminrather, it is a standartized zope 3 framework to do that21:56
mgedminso that zope 3 apps do not need to reimplement the common bits of this framework (storing versions somewhere, calling appropriate functions for data conversion)21:57
mgedminif SB 0.9 comes from the trunk, we /could/ start using generations21:57
mgedminhowever that might delay the release21:57
th1aThe current plan is to use the trunk, iirc.21:58
* mgedmin is thinking about unknown risks because he has never actually used z3 generations, only read about them21:58
th1aI'd rather have this delay 0.9 than 1.0.22:00
mgedminI see your point22:00
th1aPlus it gets increasingly more likely that people will start using SchoolBell.22:01
mgedminshould SB 1.0 support partial migration for 0.9 (just peoples, groups, resources and calendars)22:02
mgedminor should it support full db migration?22:02
mgedminthe difference is mostly in implementation, I think22:02
th1aI say partial is enough.22:03
th1aUnless it wouldn't take much additional time to do full.22:03
mgedminlet me see if I understand the current sb 0.9 plan right:22:04
mgedmin- merge sb 0.9 changes to trunk22:04
mgedmin- add partial migration from 0.822:04
mgedmin- release sb 0.922:04
th1aI should post that to the list to make sure Jinty's on the same page.22:05
mgedminthis poses some questions22:05
mgedminschoolbell 0.8 and schooltool 0.8 were almost the same thing (different wording and logo, that's it)22:05
mgedminschoolbell 0.9 hides a lot of schooltool functionality22:06
mgedminI do not thing merges to schooltool trunk that remove schooltool functionality are ok22:06
mgedminwe will have solved that problem (sharing of code + adequate separation of user interfaces) in sb 1.022:07
th1aWell, we can also wait until Etria makes basic updates the SchoolTool UI before we upload SB 0.9 and ST 0.9 to Debian.22:07
mgedminthat implies two branches in the repository22:08
mgedminone for schooltool (trunk), one for schoolbell22:08
mgedminor maybe not22:08
mgedminperhaps it would be sufficient to have a different set of page templates22:08
mgedminif we could share all the view code, things would be simpler22:08
mgedminjinty yesterday wanted to separate python files from page templates for packaging reasons22:09
th1aThat's what we've had in mind.22:09
mgedminif we did that, then we could accomodate both schooltool and schoolbell with different uis in the same subversion branch (i.e. trunk)22:09
mgedminhowever there are some differences in python files (e.g. renaming the 'root' group to 'everyone')22:10
mgedminthe change of plans for schoolbell 0.9 makes us solve some problems earlier than we anticipated22:11
mgedminand probably in a different and temporary way from the final solutions22:12
mgedminbecause the final solution will take some time to implement22:12
th1aYou mean using the trunk?22:12
th1a(as the change of plan)?22:12
mgedminthe original plan was "branch schooltool into schoolbell-ui, make some changes, release for christmas"22:12
mgedminnew plan is "merge into trunk, solve the problem of accomodating the now schooltool and schoolbell UIs, add backwards db compatibility code, release"22:13
th1aThere are lots of Debian packaging side effects that I didn't take into account in the original plan.22:13
mgedminneither did I22:14
th1aI don't think this is causing any time to be wasted.22:14
mgedminprobably not22:14
th1aJust dealing with a few things now instead of later.22:14
mgedminunless later we will want to deal with those things in a slightly different way ;)22:15
th1aNot between 0.9 and 1.022:15
mgedminmy vision for schoolbell 1.0 and schooltool 1.0 is this22:16
mgedminwe have two top-level packages instead of one: schooltool and schoolbell22:16
mgedminschoolbell contains everything that is needed for schoolbell 1.0 (calendars, persons, resources, etc.)22:17
mgedminschooltool contains everything that is needed for schooltool 1.0 except for those bits that are already present in schoolbell22:17
mgedminmodules within the schooltool package may (and will) depend on modules within the schoolbell package, but not the other way around22:17
th1aHm.  Hadn't thought of it that way.22:18
mgedminso schooltool will contain absences, timetables, etc.22:18
mgedminwe will use zcml for defining views22:20
mgedminso we will be able to say that schooltool and schoolbell use the same view class for, say, a person's info page, but with different page templates22:21
th1aHm.  Remember that SchoolTool will eventually be doing much, much more than SchoolBell.22:22
mgedmineventually schoolbell will be the #1 calendaring solution for zope3 apps22:23
mgedminand schooltool will be a big zope 3 app that uses schoolbell for its calendaring needs22:23
mgedminI still need to think about the difference between "schoolbell as an application" and "schoolbell as a collection of libraries for calendaring"22:24
bskahanafter merging back to trunk can we use Zope layers to seperate out the UIs?22:24
mgedminideally the first (app) should be just a small addition to the second (libs)22:24
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bskahanthat was the impression I ot from steve22:24
mgedminperhaps just a single file + a python script that can be run from the command line to start up the server22:25
mgedmins/just a single file/just a single zcml file/22:25
mgedminbskahan, trunk does not use zope 3 views yet22:25
mgedminso you cannot use zope 3 layers right now22:25
* bskahan nods22:26
mgedminyou will be able to do that before we release sb 1.022:26
* mgedmin should really commit the currently smallish 'schoolbell' package that he extracted from schooltool during the ubuntu conference22:26
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