IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2005-01-04

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th1aunimauro: hello17:16
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th1aSteveA:  I've received a question about my PyCon submission:17:37
th1a"(I'd like to know) whether the facet objects correspond to the concept of faceted classification."17:37
th1aI think the answer is yes.17:38
th1aAlthough the formal definitions of "faceted classification" are somewhat opaque.17:39
vinscia partner for schooltool?
th1aI have some connections at Stanford, although I don't know any of those people.17:53
th1aTim Mansfield probably knows those people.17:53
th1aBut yeah, that's our target market in the US.17:54
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vinsciI have no idea what that project is about - it was just a chance encounter on Google on an unrelated search. Could be worth lookingo into, though.17:55
th1aThat's pretty much the scene I come from, although on the East coast instead of the West coast.17:55
th1aThe center of school redesign has shifted from Brown University/Providence (where I am) to Stanford University in the past ten years.17:57
vinsciok, just wanted to make sure you're aware of them ;-)17:58
tvon|x31Howdy folks17:58
th1aHi.  Looks like everyone is here.17:59
bska|mobileHi everyone18:00
vinscibtw, here in Finland the school administration market is pretty much owned by a single small company that concquered the market over the previous 10 years. You may want to evaluate their software for ideas to borrow. They're
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th1avinsci:  thanks for the tip18:00
vinsciapparently they're doing very well, they bought a small skyscraper the other year and they're only something like 30 persons...18:01
vinsciwhich is slightly annoying of course, as it's all taxpayers money :)18:01
th1aWe will all be rich soon enough :-)18:02
vinscilol :)18:02
algath1a: perhaps you could lead the meeting?18:03
algawhat's our agenda?18:03
th1aWell, the impetus yesteday was gintas' questions about merging the schoolbell branch back into the trunk.18:04
th1aSo I want to make sure we know how we're handling SchoolBell vs. SchoolTool going forward.18:05
algaand who :-)18:05
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th1aWell, these are the kind of things that I don't understand very well, so I need to get you guys talking to each other.18:06
th1aIs there any reason not to merge them back together soon?18:06
bska|mobileeverything from schoolbell probably should be in schooltool as well18:07
mgedminI agree18:07
bska|mobilethe trick is in the other direction18:08
gintasanother thing I asked Tom yesterday about was whether the 'schoolbell-ui' branch is "the" SchoolBell branch18:08
gintasI thing you said it wasn't, right, Tom?18:08
th1aThat's my understanding.18:08
gintasmine too18:09
*mgedmin thought this was the temporary schoolbell 0.9 release branch that was to be merged back into the trunk asap18:09
tvonright, thats how I understood it18:09
th1aOK.  So we all agree!18:09
mgedminthat depends on how gintas understands 'the schoolbell branch'18:09
th1aThat's a more complicated question.18:10
mgedminto me 'the schoolbell branch' implies that this is a long living branch, and not something that will be merged and discarded after the next release18:10
gintaswhen I said "the schoolbell branch", I had a fork in mind, which would not be merged into trunk18:10
mgedminand I do not think we want to continue development on two branches in parallel18:10
mgedminso there seems to have been a misundestanding18:11
mgedminthat is now cleared18:11
*mgedmin looks around18:11
mgedminit is a pity that jinty isn't here18:11
th1aWell, my vision is that we're going to put out SchoolBell 1.0 and then focus our attention on SchoolTool indefinitely.18:11
gintasit's just that the branch has been around for so long that I started to suspect that it's going to stick around18:12
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bska|mobileI think we can start merging it back next week18:12
mgedminin my understanding SchoolBell 1.0 will be a SchoolBell-on-Zope3 rather than SchoolBell-on-Twisted18:13
gintaswhy next week?18:13
gintasjudging from my small experiment that I did yesterday, merging the branch is a matter of a few hours18:14
th1aI'm assuming SchoolBell-on-Zope3 will be ready for SchoolBell 1.0.18:14
bska|mobilefixing averlays, anonymous users, and test coverage18:14
tvonthe actual merge will be relatively simple, its just a matter of getting 0.9 out the door before then18:15
gintasdo you want to release the branch as 0.9?18:15
tvonthats what I thought was going to happen18:16
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*bska|mobile punts to th1a18:16
gintasdo you think that our changes in trunk are not worth integrating?18:16
mgedmingintas, the whole point of that branch was to avoid our changes in trunk18:16
tvonI'm also saying SchoolBell 0.9, not SchoolTool 0.918:16
mgedmin(our zope3 restructuring changes, that is)18:17
mgedmin(some bugfixes perhaps should be merged)18:17
th1aSorry... phone call.18:17
gintasAh, so we don't want Zope3 restructuring stuff in SchoolBell 0.9.  Thanks for clarifying18:18
th1aWell, by the time the rest of 0.9 is ready the Zope3 stuff might be done.18:18
mgedminI hope 0.9 will be ready sooner18:19
th1aWhat's the timeframe on the Z3 stuff?18:19
mgedminthere is a lot of Zope 3 stuff that needs to be done18:19
tvonwe were thinking Friday18:19
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mgedminwe're only about to wrap up the first stage18:19
tvonfor 0.918:19
th1aOh.  The first stage isn't a usable point?18:19
algaI think the things we have in the trunk are stable enough to be released18:19
mgedminit is a usable point18:19
mgedminit is not, however, the final point18:20
gintasI think it is18:20
gintasthat's why I was a bit surprised18:20
th1aWhen will the first phase be done?18:20
mgedminalso friday18:20
algaAFAIU the last thing we have to do is the zope 3 views spike18:21
algait will not produce any releaseable code, only information18:21
algaplans for future18:21
algaI am doing it in a separate branch18:21
gintasmgedmin, alga: do you intend to finish migration to ZPublisher till Friday?18:22
mgedminwe intend to finish the spike18:22
algano, but our current state stands on its own18:22
mgedminactual migration is not planned for this iteration18:22
algaone problem with it though is that it requires all of Zope318:22
gintasok then, so what's wrong with the current state of the trunk?18:23
algaexcept a dependency on zope.app18:23
th1aSo at the end of this first phase of Z3 transistion, we're still going to be dependent on Twisted, right?18:23
algaI'm pretty optimistic that twisted can be thrown out in a matter of couple of weeks18:24
tvonis trunk run the same way? eg ./ ?18:24
algain the next iteration18:24
bska|mobiledoes it make sense for us to merge on Monday then?18:25
bska|mobilesince stage 1 will be finished friday?18:25
algais it worth waiting till monday?18:26
bska|mobiledon't have to18:26
algaI'm fine with it, but keep in mind that not a lot is going to change, so it's your call18:26
th1aIt doesn't sound like it makes much difference either way.18:26
bska|mobilecould probably do it friday18:26
bska|mobilebut I'd like to have the weekend to try out trunk18:27
tvonI mean, we could do it now but we have more work to do before schoolbell 0.9 is ready so I think it makes sense to wait18:27
gintaswe will probably still want to isolate and merge bugfixes18:28
algaso, the release will be cut on the schoolbell-ui branch?18:29
*bska|mobile is confused now18:29
algain that case, the bugfixes merge is necessary18:29
algaotherwise, not18:29
th1aI think the point is we're merging before the release.18:30
algathe dependency on Zope3 does not scare you?18:30
mgedminah, I thought otherwise18:30
algait might scare jinty ;-)18:30
mgedminpackaging becomes more complicated18:30
mgedminand the benefits of using Zope 3 are not fully realized yet18:31
algamaybe it makes sense to merge after the release18:31
mgedmin(e.g. the twisted dependency is not yet removed)18:31
th1aThat's a good point.18:31
th1aWe'll have to straighten out the packaging issues sooner or later.18:31
tvonI thought we were still merging after the release. 18:32
th1aBut I guess the only person who feels strongly about this stuff is jinty.18:32
th1aMerging after the release will make him happy.18:32
th1aWould everyone be ok with merging after the release, then?18:33
*bska|mobile nods18:34
gintasI thought that Brian was suggesting to merge on Monday and the release is on Friday?18:34
Aisteth1a: did you see SteveA's message to you?18:34
th1aSo Etria will sync up bugfixes, etc.18:34
th1aAiste:  yes, but I haven't had a chance to chat with jdub yet.18:34
Aisteok, just checking, in case you missed it :)18:35
gintasdarn, I'm having some latency problems ;(18:35
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th1aSpeak of the devil.18:36
th1aGlad you could make it jinty.  Sorry I didn't give you much notice.18:36
th1aSo... what's Etria's timeline for 0.9?18:37
th1aWe also need some kind of SchoolTool 0.9 that's released at the same time.  It is ok with me if it is pretty much identical to SchoolBell.18:39
th1aWe'll add the school-related features back into the interface for SchoolTool 0.10.18:39
tvonA schooltool 0.9 without some of the schooltool 0.8 features?18:40
mgedmindo we really need SchoolTool 0.9 that is really SchoolBell 0.9?18:40
mgedminif it is just a matter of debian packaging18:40
tvonI mean "yeah, thats my question too"18:40
mgedminperhaps jinty could simply change debian/control to suppress the schooltool* packages18:41
mgedminand then change it back for 0.1018:41
mgedmin(or, rather, make the change on the branch and then not merge it to trunk)18:41
th1aIf there is some way we can avoid putting out SchoolTool 0.9, I'm ok with it.18:42
mgedminI don't think I know enough about debian to know if what I proposed would work or not18:43
tvonwell, we do have till Friday to see how schooltool works with the new ui bits18:43
th1aWell, we can work that out with jinty later.18:43
th1aSo we need to start thinking about the next contracts.18:44
th1aI think I might like POV to do a little work on the access control.18:46
tvonbtw, I'm getting a missing module in trunk, "_zope_proxy_proxy"18:46
tvonwhen trying to run the server18:46
tvonor tests18:46
mgedmintvon, known issue, let me see if I have committed the fix or not18:46
tvonmgedmin: okay18:46
jintysorry, here now. opened the window and left it.18:47
algath1a: we'll be migrating to Zope 3 security machinery, that'll be a major security rework18:47
th1aIn the next phase?18:47
algaIt can be delayed if needed18:47
th1aNo, I'd rather do it sooner.18:48
algaWe'll have to integrate our ACLs with it somehow18:48
jintymgedmin: I think it could work, but worry about how the archive management scripts of debian will treat it.18:48
mgedmintvon, committed18:48
tvonmgedmin: thanks18:48
algawhat work on access control did you have in mind, actually?18:48
th1aWell, there's this:
th1aRight now private events aren't visible to other people, even if they have "edit" permission, which means that they'll overwrite events that they can't see.18:49
algathat is a bug IMO, it should be working18:50
th1aOh.  So if you have edit permission you should see private events now?18:50
algait should be that way, but is not :-)18:51
algaI imagine the fix won't be a big deal18:52
th1aI'm going to write up some of the more complex use cases for schools that we'll need to start accounting for.18:52
jintymgedmin: Actually, now that I think about it there was once a schoolbell-ssl binary package in the archive that automacically dissapeared when a new source package without it was uploaded. Perhaps because I was conflicting against it - but I'm not sure.18:53
algath1a: also, there's that groupware use case, where a group's calendar must be composed out of calendars of members, not the other way around.18:54
algaa different kind of groups...18:54
algawe discussed it a bit18:55
mgedminjinty, I don't think we want schooltool 0.8 to disappear...18:55
algaI don't remember if we came up with a simple solution of how to implement it18:56
jintymgedmin: I don't either...18:56
algabecause there's already an awful lot of complexity, details to keep in mind in the calendaring code18:56
SteveAth1a: in faceted classification each facet of an item is one way in which it classified in a particular subject area.  With facets in schooltool, each facet of an object models in software the object's responsibilities (and encapsulates its data) for a particular role that object plays in the schooltool system and in the real world system we're modeling with it.18:56
th1aalga: I don't think that groupware use case is going to be in 1.0.18:57
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*mgedmin finds out that ^W does *not* delete a word18:57
th1aSteveA:  the proposal is at but I'm not sure you can get to it without a login.18:58
SteveAth1a: however, in schooltool, the relationships and group membership systems, and how these can imply there being different facets on each side of a relationship are closer to the spirit of faceted classification.  That is, navigating through the "relationship space" of schooltool is similar to looking up objects by faceted classification.18:58
mgedminbtw that groupware use case is
tvonth1a: nope18:59
SteveAth1a: send it to me by email if you want me to read it.18:59
th1aSteveA:  right...  sent.19:00
tvonSpeaking of issues, I think 145 might be related to how twisted serves up static files (
tvonnot entirely sure how to approach it19:00
mgedmintvon, can you reliably reproduce the problem?19:01
tvonA related problem exists with mozilla, where images placed with css do not always show up19:01
mgedminI have experienced the mozilla image problem, but was unable to reproduce it at will19:02
tvonmgedmin: Any reloads with konqueror or safari seem to only get partial css.  It's pretty consistant19:02
tvonyeah, its not "always", just "frequently"19:02
tvonbut it does not happen when the pages are served up via apache19:02
mgedminanything interesting in schooltool's web-access.log?19:03
SteveAth1a: this takes me back to my grad student days ;-)19:03
gintasby the way, Tom, just that I don't forget - I remember that you saying that the wxWidgets client needs to be removed before the next release19:05
tvonmgedmin: no, the images that are not showing up do appear in the access log19:06
th1aI want to start clearing out deprecated stuff.19:06
mgedminI agree that wxClient should not be distributed with schoolbell19:06
tvonthat needs to die19:07
gintasTom, I know, but you'll have to tell someone to do it (or do it yourself) if you want it done ;)19:07
th1aI'll have to tell someone who didn't pour his heart and soul into it?19:07
mgedminhowever I think that as long as we have the RESTive interface, a single example of a fat client is useful, even if it does not support all the features of schooltool19:07
th1aIt is useful to developers.19:07
tvonit should be packaged like that then, I think19:08
tvoneg, installed into /usr/share/doc/...19:08
*mgedmin likes schooltool/examples19:08
tvonthe "functional, but not feature complete fat client example"19:09
th1aI think we've covered what we need to cover.  Anything else pressing?19:09
algaWhat do you think about a day for bug squashing, code review, fixing up stuff19:10
bska|mobileI like that idea19:11
algawhen do you think it would make sense to do it?19:11
bska|mobileafter the merge?19:12
bska|mobileso we go over changes?19:12
bska|mobilefrom the Zope 3 work, etc19:12
algaI think it should be done before the release19:12
th1aYeah, before the release.19:12
algathat's the whole point, actually19:12
bska|mobileok, thursday, 15:00 UTC19:13
algasounds fine19:13
jintymgedmin, tvon, just put whatever you want in /user/share/doc/schooltool/examples in its own directory, but please not under /doc19:13
algawe'll be there till ~19:00 UTC19:13
th1aYes, the one thing I forgot is a general exhortation for the two teams to talk to each other more.19:14
SteveAhow often do we have an all-hands meeting?19:14
*bska|mobile commits to getting up before its dark in LT19:14
gintasby the way, I wanted to ask about Notes19:14
th1aSteveA:  not on a regular basis.  I was thinking we should start.19:15
SteveAhave a 1 hour all-hands meeting each week19:15
gintasdo Notes really have to be almost first-class objects in SchoolTool and connected by relationships?19:15
bska|mobilein retrospect, having the Obj Container is excess, having them associated by relationships I like though19:16
th1aThey have to have a URL for the REST interface.19:16
gintasdo you plan to assign the same note to multiple objects?19:16
bska|mobilewe talked about that actually19:17
gintasThen I think that relationships are excessive19:17
algado you intend the note to live longer than/separately from the notandum?19:17
bska|mobileclassrooms 1 2 and 3 all have whiteboards19:17
bska|mobilealga: no19:17
algathe point is, they should have been annotations, not separate objects19:18
th1aThat's too complicated to actually be used, I think.19:18
algamaking a facet to store annotations seems like the right way to do it19:18
mgedminalga, gintas: do you want notes to be refactored before the schoolbell 0.9 release? if not, then maybe we could discuss the design of notes (and residences and perhaps guardians) in another meeting?19:19
gintasno there's a fair share of relationship configuration boilerplate19:19
gintasmgedmin, I don't feel very strongly about that refactoring19:19
th1aI do feel strongly about having notes working properly by SchoolBell 1.0.19:19
gintasI just wanted to find out if there were reasons for using relationships19:20
tvonif there is a grand pre-1.0 list out there, we should put the notes redesign on it19:20
algaseems fine to me19:20
th1aI need to make that list.19:20
gintashow about using
th1aI agree with SteveA that we should have a weekly meeting, at least when both teams are working.19:21
tvonsounds good to me19:21
th1aHow is this time on Monday?19:21
algathis time == 17:00 UTC?19:21
alga15:00 UTC?19:22
th1aThe time we started? 16:00 UTC?19:22
algaSeems fine to me19:22
alganext semester we might have lectures overlap with that, so we might need to renegotiate19:22
*mgedmin is confused19:22
*mgedmin is confused by alga's answer, actually19:23
*alga aggrees with 16:00 UTC19:23
th1aA standing meeting 16:00 UTC on Monday.19:23
*mgedmin agrees with 16:00 UTC19:23
*bska|mobile nods19:23
SteveAand, make it 1 hour strictly19:23
gintasfine with me19:23
SteveAstart 16:00 sharp.  end 1700 sharp19:23
tvonsounds good19:23
algasomeone should be responsible for the agenda, too19:24
SteveAi'd wondered how to pronounce "th1a"19:25
SteveAnow i know19:25
th1aThere's a pronounciation?19:25
algaand what would it be?19:25
th1aalga:  I'll handle the agenda.19:25
SteveAthanks tom ;-)19:26
th1aI'm afraid I don't get it.19:26
gundeesomeone = zumwun19:26
th1aAh.  thanks.19:26
bska|mobilesetting up a projectwide schoolbell server?19:27
bska|mobile^future meeting agenda items19:27
SteveAcool -- dogfood19:27
algawe have one set up already19:27
bska|mobilecould you create users for us19:28
mgedminany preferred usernames?19:28
mgedmintvon, which one -- "tvon" or "heh"?19:28
*mgedmin ducks19:28
tvon(that was a chucke, not a username)19:28
SteveAtvon: that's the button on a universal remote?19:29
gintassee, he said "heh" two times and "tvon" only once, so make it "heh"19:29
tvonuh oh19:30
*mgedmin tries to remember the manager's password (hint: it's not "schooltool" any more)19:30
bska|mobileone down19:30
jintyme too - me too---> jinty19:31
th1amake me 'hoffman'19:31
mgedminok, created.  username == password[-1] + password[:-1] (unless I mistyped, in which case try password[1:] + password[0])19:35
*mgedmin is tired19:35
mgedminpassword == username[-1] + username[:-1]19:35
mgedminif anyone can't log in, tell me and I'll just set the password to username without fancy rotations19:36
th1amgedmin:  my fancy rotation doesn't seem to work.19:40
mgedminth1a, try with password == username now19:40
th1aI'm in.19:41
bska|mobileworks here19:41
tvonI'm good, thanks19:41
th1aAll set now.19:42
tvona SchoolTool group perhaps?19:42
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mgedminaargh, ^W19:43
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algaAArgh, Alt-F4 :-)19:44
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mgedmindoes anyone know how to enable emacs-style key bindings for input boxes in GNOME?19:45
mgedminI had it configured on my laptop, but my laptop is in repairs today19:45
tvonmaybe in gconf editor, I believe it was taken out of the UI preferences in 2.6-ish19:46
algaBut ^W is not kill-word in Emacs19:46
bska|mobileI thinks19:46
mgedminit is in bash and readline19:46
mgedminor isn't it/19:46
gintasit is19:46
*bska|mobile is confused19:47
mgedminperhaps it was an xchat keybinding19:47
bska|mobilekill word is ^] w19:47
*mgedmin is a vim user19:47
mgedmin:help i_^W19:48
tvonthats what gnome needs, modal input boxes19:48
mgedminsomeone once integrated vim into evolution as a bonobo component19:48
tvonI wish theyd finished, I'd use it.19:49
tvonI think it died out with evo 2.x19:49
*tvon also uses vim19:49
*mgedmin still uses mutt + vim for emails19:49
mgedminanyway, I was going to say "I'll create the SchoolTool group and give you all modify access to its calendar"19:50
mgedminwhen I accidentally closed the tab19:50
tvonah, cool19:51
tvonoh hey, is there any objection to an svn:propset svn:ignore *.pyc on the repo?19:51
tvonit makes 'svn st' easier to read19:51
mgedminI have that in my global-ignores, so I don't much care ;)19:51
*mgedmin notices missing icons19:53
mgedminthe icons reappeared after a page reload... same bug?19:53
mgedminthe version running on does not use CSS to place images19:54
tvonkhtml is a bit more drastic since it craps on the CSS files themselves19:54
mgedminjust simple <img src="/person.png" alt="Person" />19:54
tvongecko seems to handle the css fine but sometimes misses some images19:54
tvonimg tags should work fine19:54
tvonits images placed by CSS that have issues I believe19:54
tvonthat might be a different issue19:55
*mgedmin is done with the group setup19:55
jintyth1a: back to the release discussed when I first joined IRC?19:57
mgedminI predict that "proper timezone support" will be wishlist #1 soon19:57
th1amgedmin:  good point.19:58
th1ajinty: yes?19:58
jintyok, So my understanding is that this friday etria will finish up.19:58
jintybut that the schooltool-ui branch does not have some things that schooltool-0.8 had19:59
jintymissing features19:59
th1aWe've only worked on SchoolBell.19:59
th1aMore or less.20:00
jintySo the crux of the problem is that it is diffucult to put these features back, and also difficult/dangerous to release only schoolbell 0.8 in debian/ubuntu.20:01
jintydangerous -> the dissapering packages mentioned before20:01
th1aWell, it isn't so much that features need to be put back, as much as it will take a bit of time to integrate the old features into the new UI.20:02
th1aAnd I'd like to get the SchoolBell release out ASAP.20:02
jintyIs is necessary that SchoolBell appear in debian/ubuntu?20:03
mgedminjinty, what if you submit a new schooltool source package that only builds schooltool-*.debs (take the old source and just increment debian releast) + create a new schoolbell source package?20:03
mgedminbut maybe that's too much trouble20:04
jintyAlso, new source packages have to wait for ftp master approval - About a month if he likes you.20:04
mgedminuh oh20:05
th1aWe could hold off on the .deb's until the SchoolTool contract is done.20:05
th1aMy prime concern is getting into Ubuntu.  SteveA just gave me the name of the guy to talk to at Canonical about it.20:05
bska|mobilecan we go from 0.8 debs to 0.10 debs and do 0.9 as a tarball only release?20:05
jintyAnd he likes people that don't waste archive space/bandwidth20:05
mgedminperhaps unofficial downloadable 0.9 debs would be enough/20:06
*bska|mobile nods20:06
th1aI am going to work more on Win/Mac versions.  I should be able to have something ready for 0.9.20:06
th1aSomething to test, at least.20:06
jintyIt's uninstallable in ubuntu anyway. due to the python 2.3 dependency20:06
bska|mobileit works on ubuntu20:07
tvonbeen running it with 2.4 since ubuntu made the switch20:07
mgedminworks in warty, is uninstallable in hoary, afaiu20:07
jintydevelopment branch?20:07
tvonI dont know about the debs, but both Brian and I run Hoary here20:07
mgedminit is a dependency problem with debian packages20:08
*bska|mobile nods20:08
mgedminhas anyone tried to run schooltool on python2.4?20:08
bska|mobileyes, I test it on both20:09
tvonI've been working with schoolbell on 2.4 without any problems20:09
bska|mobile2.3 and 2.420:09
jintyAnyone know perl well? (Dirty question:)20:11
bska|mobilepretty things, come from oysters?20:11
jintycompletely a mystery20:11
jintyi agree20:11
mgedminI have done some perl in the past20:12
bska|mobilewe're going to grab lunch and coffee, anything else for now?20:13
jintycould you have a look at /usr/bin/dh_python and see how it gets the deps?20:13
jintyspecifically why it excludes python2.420:13
jintyI just can't get it.....20:14
mgedminwhere does it do that?20:15
bska|mobileI have, my @python_allversions = ('1.5','2.1','2.2','2.3','2.4');20:15
mgedminsame here20:15
SteveAth1a: btw, jeff waugh lives in australia20:16
jintyI think it greps the source for #! /usr/bin/env pythonx.y20:16
jintyor - it does, but I dont understand where the result ends up.20:17
th1aSteveA:  i.e. jdub?20:17
SteveAth1a: yes20:18
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tvonWe should get the logbot in here for future meetings...for easy community access22:11
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