| th1a | srichter: I think we need to loop over list(section.members) perhaps instead of just section.members | 00:10 |
|---|---|---|
| th1a | Nope. | 00:12 |
| srichter | that would make no sense | 00:21 |
| th1a | I know.. I'm grasping at straws here. | 00:22 |
| srichter | did you change the code back to the way we had it when we ran the test? | 00:23 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5568: | 00:34 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Implemented context-sensitive help. Provided one help screen for person containers. It is simple and thus really easy to use. So now someone just has to write the help screens. :-) | 00:35 |
| th1a | I didn't chnge the code back. | 01:10 |
| th1a | srichter: What's that line of code you were using to kick Zope to the debugger? | 01:26 |
| pcardune | th1a: you wouldn't happen to know where the attribute "contentName" is defined for all the objects that use simple_add.pt? | 01:31 |
| th1a | 'fraid not. | 01:31 |
| th1a | pdb.set_trace | 01:33 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5569: | 06:21 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Implemented Tom's final suggestions. | 06:21 |
| srichter | th1a: are you there? | 06:23 |
| th1a | Yes. | 06:24 |
| srichter | ok, I am about to write up the next stories | 06:24 |
| th1a | Excellent. | 06:24 |
| srichter | you basically want me to implement the grade book right? | 06:24 |
| th1a | I should go over the documentation one more time. | 06:24 |
| th1a | Yes. | 06:24 |
| srichter | can you give me the basic requirements? | 06:25 |
| th1a | Where do I find out how to write online help files? The README I presume? | 06:25 |
| th1a | Ok, bear in mind this is the first iteration, so we're not trying to accomplish everything at once. | 06:25 |
| srichter | there is an example in st.person.browser/configure.zcml | 06:25 |
| srichter | that's why I am asking | 06:25 |
| srichter | I guess I pan to do a gradebook a la Blackboard | 06:27 |
| th1a | Hm... you can't actually view Quicktimes, can you? | 06:27 |
| srichter | nope | 06:27 |
| srichter | though I have crossover office, which might work | 06:28 |
| th1a | Just for yahoos, see if any of the examples here will run: http://www.atomiclearning.com/powergrade | 06:28 |
| th1a | Any luck? | 06:32 |
| srichter | it worked in kaffeine, but pic is not right | 06:32 |
| srichter | I am trying quicktime | 06:33 |
| th1a | Well, it isn't a big deal. | 06:35 |
| th1a | Anyhow, I've never actually used an online gradebook, so you have a better idea of the basic features than I do. | 06:35 |
| srichter | ok, I'll write something up | 06:36 |
| th1a | If they had PowerSchool videos too, I might shell out the $80, but they don't. | 06:36 |
| srichter | are we still meeting on Thursday? | 06:36 |
| th1a | Ah, yes. Mako's meeting is in the evening. 6:00, so we can meet late morning - afternoon if it is ok with you. | 06:36 |
| srichter | yep, sure | 06:37 |
| th1a | So it turns out that there is something weird about expanded calendars. | 06:37 |
| th1a | I had to do "events = list(calendar.expand(first, last))" | 06:37 |
| th1a | To get the data generation to work. | 06:38 |
| th1a | It would loop through the events for the first student, and then it would show 0 events for the rest of them. | 06:38 |
| th1a | Until I make events a list. | 06:38 |
| srichter | mmh, probably the iterator is not correctly implemented | 06:39 |
| th1a | I can't get the workflow set up right for the test. | 06:40 |
| th1a | Do you think I should just make it a functional test? | 06:40 |
| srichter | well, that's what I would do ;-) | 06:43 |
| th1a | Should I make an ftest directory? | 06:44 |
| th1a | I'm never sure where to put these things and point the test runner at them. | 06:44 |
| srichter | actually an ftest is no good, since it would test the complete generation | 06:45 |
| th1a | Oh, blast. | 06:45 |
| th1a | I knew there would be some problem. | 06:45 |
| srichter | yeah, setting up workflows is pretty complex, though it is probably done somewhere already | 06:46 |
| th1a | They use some stubs, which I can't use. | 06:47 |
| th1a | But yeah, I can pull it together. | 06:47 |
| th1a | It is just an immense amount of setup :-( | 06:48 |
| srichter | yep | 06:48 |
| th1a | Also, now that we're producing the full amount of data, it swamped my computer :-( | 06:48 |
| srichter | I think you do not need to setup everything, only the workflow utility | 06:48 |
| srichter | he he | 06:48 |
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| th1a|inux | ComponentLookupError: (Activity(u'explanation.explain'), <InterfaceClass zope.wfmc.interfaces.IParticipant>, u'.attendanceAdmin') | 06:50 |
| th1a | That's what I'm getting now. | 06:50 |
| th1a | So it looks like I have to do the whole nine yards. | 06:51 |
| srichter | yeah, you have to setup the participant for the activity | 06:52 |
| srichter | I wonder whether you should just execute the ZCML file | 06:52 |
| th1a | Can I? | 06:52 |
| srichter | sure | 06:52 |
| th1a | Will mgedmin scold me ;-) | 06:52 |
| srichter | probably ;-) (he he) | 06:53 |
| th1a | What would I have to do? | 06:53 |
| srichter | basically do: | 06:55 |
| srichter | from zope.configuration import xmlconfig | 06:55 |
| srichter | xmlconfig.file('.../configure.zcml', package=...) | 06:55 |
| th1a | Did you test your help window popup on Mozilla? | 06:56 |
| th1a | It isn't working right for me. | 06:56 |
| srichter | nope | 06:57 |
| th1a|inux | My main window goes blank, with this in the URL slot: javascript:window.open('http://localhost:7080/persons/@@index.html/++help++/@@contexthelp.html','Context Help','height=400 ,width=600 ,resizable=1 ,scrollbars=yes ,location=no ,status=no | 06:58 |
| th1a|inux | ,toolbar=no ,menubar=no') | 06:58 |
| srichter | isn't window.open the oldest JS API | 06:58 |
| th1a | Don't ask me. | 06:58 |
| th1a | konqueror is very blue. | 06:59 |
| srichter | blue? | 07:00 |
| th1a | Just the default welcome screen is jarring with all the Ubuntu human brown. | 07:00 |
| srichter | :-) | 07:01 |
| srichter | http://www.mozilla.org/docs/dom/domref/dom_window_ref76.html | 07:02 |
| srichter | btw, the code works in my firefox | 07:04 |
| th1a | It does the same thing in both of mine. | 07:05 |
| th1a | Works in Safari. | 07:05 |
| srichter | oh, you mean that it also opens a blank screen | 07:06 |
| srichter | besides the real window | 07:06 |
| th1a | I thought the main screen was going blank. | 07:07 |
| srichter | right | 07:07 |
| srichter | I saw that too | 07:07 |
| th1a | Yes. | 07:07 |
| th1a | That's a bug. | 07:07 |
| srichter | I am trying onClick | 07:07 |
| srichter | well, it's really a FF bug | 07:07 |
| th1a | So when I load that ZCML file, what do the package and context arguments mean? | 07:16 |
| srichter | ignore context | 07:18 |
| srichter | package is the package the ZCML file is in | 07:18 |
| th1a | So "attendance" | 07:18 |
| srichter | yes | 07:18 |
| th1a | Do I need to use os.path to open the file correctly cross-platform? | 07:19 |
| srichter | no, I think the relative path should be fine | 07:21 |
| srichter | so just enter 'configure.zcml' | 07:21 |
| th1a | ../configure.zcml right? | 07:21 |
| srichter | no, just configure.zcml | 07:22 |
| th1a | OK. | 07:22 |
| srichter | because it is relative to the package you specify | 07:22 |
| th1a | Hm. OK. | 07:22 |
| th1a | This is making me feel retarded. | 07:29 |
| th1a|inux | ZopeXMLConfigurationError: File "/home/hoffman/Desktop/schooltool/src/schooltool/attendance/configure.zcml", line 6.2 | 07:29 |
| th1a|inux | ConfigurationError: ('Unknown directive', u'http://namespaces.zope.org/zope', u'class') | 07:29 |
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| th1a | I'm doing "import schooltool.attendance" and "xmlconfig.file('configure.zcml', package=schooltool.attendance) | 07:32 |
| th1a | srichter: Any thoughts before I give up and take a bubble bath? | 07:41 |
| jinty | hi th1a, I saw that we are on for a snapshot tomorrow | 07:42 |
| th1a | Ah, ready as we'll ever be. | 07:42 |
| jinty | ok, then, tomorrow night, when I wake up again | 07:42 |
| srichter | th1athat's right | 07:43 |
| jinty | btw, i'm also stealing your jumpto portlet | 07:43 |
| th1a | Huh? | 07:43 |
| th1a | Tomorrow night whose time? | 07:43 |
| th1a | Which night? | 07:43 |
| th1a | Is it morning? | 07:43 |
| th1a | Now? | 07:43 |
| jinty | my time, in about 16 hours | 07:44 |
| th1a | That sounds perfect. | 07:44 |
| th1a | Thanks jinty. | 07:44 |
| jinty | well, it'll be both day and night for me;) seems I am nocturnal now | 07:44 |
| jinty | oops! just looked at the logs, schooltool nightly tarball failed | 07:45 |
| th1a | Figures. | 07:45 |
| jinty | srichter: waa! | 07:45 |
| jinty | failed in: schooltool/app/browser/ftests/help.txt | 07:46 |
| srichter | what failed? | 07:46 |
| srichter | it passed for me | 07:46 |
| srichter | oh, you know what? | 07:46 |
| jinty | ERROR: File | 07:46 |
| jinty | +"/home/jinty/releases/schooltool/tst/lib/python/schooltool/app/browser/ftests/h+elp.txt", line 28, in help.txt | 07:46 |
| jinty | ERROR: Failed example: | 07:46 |
| jinty | ERROR: 'Context Help' in manager.contents | 07:46 |
| jinty | ERROR: Differences (ndiff with -expected +actual): | 07:46 |
| srichter | I forgot to add the dependency zope.app.renderer | 07:46 |
| jinty | ERROR: - True | 07:46 |
| jinty | ERROR: + False | 07:46 |
| jinty | is zope.app.renderer in 3.2? | 07:47 |
| srichter | of course | 07:47 |
| srichter | it is there forever | 07:48 |
| srichter | it is required for the full onlinehelp | 07:48 |
| jinty | sorry, never noticed;) | 07:48 |
| srichter | and apidoc of course | 07:48 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * srichter committed revision 5570: | 08:26 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Improved help screen for Mozilla. Made the HTML more simple using tables. I jsut hate, hate div's + CSS 2. | 08:26 |
| srichter | th1a: did you start on the gradebook already? | 08:52 |
| th1a | srichter: Not beyond some planning. | 09:06 |
| th1a | I put my ideas into that presentation I've been working on. | 09:07 |
| srichter | ok | 09:23 |
| srichter | yeah, except that this is pretty advanced | 09:24 |
| srichter | for now I am sticking to very simple garding items and grades | 09:24 |
| srichter | th1a: so grade items can be added to sections only? | 09:35 |
| srichter | or should we be able to add grading items to courses as well? | 09:36 |
| th1a | You would only grade a section. | 09:42 |
| th1a | But a section requirement is a sub-class of the course requirement. | 09:43 |
| srichter | ok, that's what I thought | 09:45 |
| srichter | th1a: the gradebook will not have to handle trimesters, etc. right? | 09:48 |
| srichter | s/trimesters/terms | 09:57 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * vidas committed revision 5571: | 12:40 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Excluded current day from the real time attendance sparkline. | 12:40 |
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| srichter | what's Tom's site for creating user stories? | 15:24 |
| srichter | ok, found it | 15:25 |
| srichter | would have never guessed that though | 15:25 |
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| erchache | im making using schoolbell on spanish | 17:29 |
| pcardune | srichter: I'm having trouble using the CookieTreeView, it wants all nodes to be adaptable to IUniqueID, but only non persistent objects can be adapted | 17:46 |
| pcardune | how should I get around this? or am i totally lost? | 17:47 |
| srichter | mmh, that seems strange | 17:53 |
| srichter | all IContained or ILocation objects should be working | 17:53 |
| erchache | bye | 18:01 |
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| erchache | hi again! | 19:40 |
| erchache | i put view permission to my calendar and doesnt run with unautheticated users...why? | 19:44 |
| erchache | permission control are stable? | 19:44 |
| erchache | th1a|linux: ey....with openoffice and gimp are very easy to make manuals.... | 19:51 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * pcardune committed revision 5572: | 20:09 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Initial addition of requirement browser views. This includes views for adding, editing, and looking at requirements trees structures. | 20:09 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * pcardune committed revision 5573: | 20:40 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: made the few changes mgedmin suggested | 20:40 |
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| * mgedmin waves back at povbot | 20:46 | |
| srichter | huh? | 20:47 |
| * srichter remembers that he set his client to ignore povbot <grin> | 20:47 | |
| mgedmin | povbot mentioned my name | 20:48 |
| povbot | mgedmin: Error: "mentioned" is not a valid command. | 20:48 |
| pcardune | ha ha | 20:49 |
| mgedmin | I suddenly understand why you ignored it | 20:49 |
| mgedmin | my irc nickname differs from my user account name | 20:49 |
| mgedmin | so my irc client doesn't ring a bell for each of my commits | 20:49 |
| srichter | mgedmin: well, I am also reading the commits via the MAiling List anyways, briefly looking through the code, so that I really do not need the notifications | 20:52 |
| srichter | mgedmin: do you know where Tom is? | 20:53 |
| mgedmin | no | 20:53 |
| srichter | ok | 20:53 |
| srichter | mgedmin: what score system do you use in Lithuania? | 20:57 |
| srichter | A, B, C, D, F? | 20:57 |
| srichter | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6? | 20:57 |
| srichter | 5, 4, 3, 2, 1? | 20:57 |
| mgedmin | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | 2 and 3 are almost never used | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | 1 usually means you gave in a blank test paper | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | things like that | 20:58 |
| srichter | so 10 is the best? | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | yes | 20:58 |
| srichter | ok | 20:58 |
| pcardune | sweet... you get one whole point for nothing | 20:59 |
| mgedmin | well, it drags your average score down | 20:59 |
| mgedmin | 5 is the lowest passing grade | 20:59 |
| mgedmin | or is it 4 | 20:59 |
| mgedmin | or 6? | 20:59 |
| mgedmin | whatever | 20:59 |
| mgedmin | 4 is the lowest passing grade in schools; 5 is the lowest passing grade in universities | 20:59 |
| mgedmin | (says ignas, who is sitting next to me) | 21:00 |
| srichter | ok :-) | 21:00 |
| mgedmin | also, in universities you sometimes get subjects that are not graded | 21:00 |
| mgedmin | and you either pass (įskaityta) or fail (neįskaityta) | 21:00 |
| srichter | right, you have those here too | 21:00 |
| srichter | those are pass/fail courses | 21:00 |
| srichter | students can also choose to take a class pass/fail | 21:01 |
| srichter | mgedmin: but you cannot get a 7.8 for example, right? | 21:01 |
| srichter | meaning those grades are true integers | 21:01 |
| mgedmin | yes | 21:02 |
| srichter | ok, makes sense | 21:02 |
| mgedmin | sometimes you get a 7-, indicating that you barely qualified for a 7 | 21:02 |
| mgedmin | but for all intents and purposes it is a 7 | 21:02 |
| srichter | I see | 21:03 |
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| srichter | there he is | 21:03 |
| th1a | Hey. | 21:03 |
| srichter | I am done writing up the gradebook stories | 21:03 |
| th1a | My Mac client dies periodically, and I forget to restart it. | 21:04 |
| srichter | I am only not sure how you want to handle extra credit. | 21:04 |
| th1a | Architecturally? | 21:04 |
| srichter | well, should EC scores be separate grading items? | 21:04 |
| th1a | Mathematically? | 21:04 |
| th1a | How else would you do it? | 21:04 |
| srichter | mathematically they are tricky too ;-) | 21:04 |
| th1a | You mean extra credit not directly attached to an assignment? | 21:05 |
| srichter | well, whenever I give extra credit I add it to the score of the relevant assignment | 21:05 |
| srichter | well, I do not have those cases in my classes, but I imagine others do? | 21:05 |
| th1a | Presumably. | 21:06 |
| srichter | ok, so I add this to the story | 21:06 |
| th1a | Does this affect the underlying design, or is it just something we have to figure out eventually? | 21:06 |
| srichter | how to count them mathematically is very difficult too | 21:06 |
| srichter | something that we have to figure out eventually | 21:06 |
| th1a | OK, I say punt for now. | 21:07 |
| srichter | it would simply be an additional flag, nothing serious | 21:07 |
| srichter | ok | 21:07 |
| th1a | This is the kind of thing where having partner schools helps limit the possibilities. | 21:07 |
| srichter | right | 21:07 |
| srichter | th1a: and we are on for Thursday, right? | 21:08 |
| th1a | Yes. | 21:08 |
| th1a | I'm just off to a slow start today for various reasons. | 21:08 |
| srichter | late night? | 21:08 |
| srichter | (I only slep 2.5 hours last night ;-( ) | 21:08 |
| th1a | Not more of a late night than usual. | 21:09 |
| srichter | th1a: ok, I am gonna send you the first draft of the proposal. | 21:18 |
| th1a | OK. Thanks. | 21:19 |
| srichter | sent | 21:32 |
| srichter | ok, I have to have a nap, so talk to you later | 21:33 |
| th1a | srichter: ttyl. | 21:33 |
| * mgedmin sees tty1 | 21:34 | |
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| jelkner | sorry i'm late | 23:04 |
| jelkner | pcardune: how are we doing? | 23:04 |
| jelkner | anybody here? | 23:05 |
| pcardune | good | 23:05 |
| jelkner | i notice dave isn't here today | 23:05 |
| pcardune | I was just starting the schooltool server and my computer needs more memory | 23:05 |
| pcardune | at least not yet | 23:05 |
| jelkner | i only have one topic for today... | 23:06 |
| jelkner | namely: what is the time line for having an installable version of cando 2006? | 23:06 |
| pcardune | we've been saying april | 23:07 |
| jelkner | because until i have something to look at, i can't really contribute much more | 23:07 |
| jelkner | so do we even need to meet weekly at this stage? | 23:07 |
| pcardune | oh well, you can do svn checkouts hourly! | 23:07 |
| jelkner | do they run? | 23:08 |
| pcardune | yep | 23:08 |
| jelkner | oh | 23:08 |
| jelkner | that's a different story then | 23:08 |
| jelkner | since my role is as customer, i need to begin testing releases whenever you tell me they are ready | 23:09 |
| pcardune | well, i think you should (as customer) look at doctests | 23:09 |
| jelkner | if i started using the svn version now, would i and a few brave student testers be able to use the system? | 23:09 |
| pcardune | no, at this point there isn't anything new to use from an enduser point of view | 23:09 |
| pcardune | you could use it if you and the students testers were at a python prompt :) | 23:10 |
| pcardune | but I don't think that's what you mean | 23:10 |
| pcardune | i only just began implementing new browser views | 23:11 |
| jelkner | let me put it this way: what (if anything) do you need from me now? | 23:11 |
| pcardune | i believe if you do a checkout now, you will see a Virginia Competencies link, that takes you into the requirement browser views which I wrote yesterday | 23:12 |
| pcardune | I could use some specific user stories oriented towards the user interface | 23:12 |
| pcardune | now, with the power of viewlets, we can super integrate cando into schooltool. It would be handy to know if you have any specific requests regarding that | 23:12 |
| jelkner | my first user story is that i want students to be able to create portfolios | 23:13 |
| pcardune | already in the plans is for a person's page (when you click on your name in the top right) to show a list of competencies with grades etc. | 23:13 |
| pcardune | I guess what I really want from you are functional tests | 23:14 |
| jelkner | i don't know how to create them? | 23:14 |
| jelkner | could you give me an example of one? | 23:15 |
| pcardune | they are *very* easy to create. except for a tiny bit of overhead, they are just a bunch of function calls that interact with a fake browser | 23:15 |
| pcardune | sure | 23:15 |
| pcardune | http://svn.schooltool.org/cando/trunk/src/cando/browser/ftests/scoresystem.txt | 23:17 |
| jelkner | cool! | 23:18 |
| jelkner | so my homework is to look this page over until i understand what is going on | 23:18 |
| pcardune | or if you want to see one made by srichter, who writes better doctests than i do, check out http://source.schooltool.org/svn/trunk/schooltool/src/schooltool/level/browser/README.txt | 23:18 |
| jelkner | and to ask mitchell any questions i have ;-) | 23:19 |
| ffsnoopy | haha, ill try | 23:19 |
| jelkner | ok, i have a few practical questions, and then we can call this meeting to a close... | 23:19 |
| pcardune | this is especially good because srichter has been working on a tutorial system that reads the doctests and executes them right in front of you, in a real browser | 23:19 |
| jelkner | 1. i have a machine (cando.yhspatriot.net) which is setup for running yorktown's cando instance | 23:20 |
| jelkner | i only have one student who is really doing anything with it at the moment, since i want to use cando for student portfolios, and i'm waiting for the new version to test that | 23:21 |
| jelkner | ooops, too many words, where is the question? | 23:21 |
| jelkner | should i dist-upgrade to dapper? | 23:21 |
| jelkner | (there's the question! ;-) | 23:21 |
| pcardune | dapper? | 23:21 |
| jelkner | dapper is the next ubuntu release | 23:22 |
| jelkner | it comes out in april | 23:22 |
| jelkner | but i could run it now | 23:22 |
| pcardune | ok, that's what i thought... go right ahead | 23:22 |
| jelkner | since that is the release on which schooltool 2006 will run | 23:22 |
| jelkner | that way we can be testing on our target platform | 23:22 |
| ffsnoopy | is it stable enough? | 23:23 |
| jelkner | it runs fine | 23:23 |
| jelkner | but things break now and then, of course | 23:23 |
| jelkner | but thats the point of a development release | 23:23 |
| pcardune | well, as long as python is the same, and zope doesn't have any problems related to C code or something, it should work exactly the same | 23:23 |
| jelkner | here's the thing | 23:24 |
| jelkner | we want to get cando into the schooltool release that will come with dapper | 23:24 |
| jelkner | (thla: is that correct?) | 23:24 |
| jelkner | i'm still not sure how all this works | 23:25 |
| pcardune | why though? | 23:25 |
| pcardune | the only reason i can imagine is publicity | 23:25 |
| jelkner | no, that's not the reason | 23:25 |
| jelkner | the reason is simplicity | 23:25 |
| pcardune | for who? the enduser would only need to do another apt-get install cando | 23:25 |
| jelkner | 'apt-get install cando' is all you need | 23:26 |
| jelkner | for the users | 23:26 |
| jelkner | not if we don't get it into the repository | 23:26 |
| jelkner | right now we are using a special little repository that jinty created for us | 23:26 |
| jelkner | once we have things in the main repository, 'apt-get install cando' will work for all ubuntu users | 23:27 |
| jelkner | just like 'apt-get install schooltool' already does | 23:27 |
| pcardune | can't it be added to the repository after dapper is released? | 23:27 |
| jelkner | not until the next release | 23:28 |
| jelkner | dapper+1 | 23:28 |
| jelkner | which comes out in october | 23:28 |
| jelkner | and we may really be looking at dapper+1 | 23:28 |
| jelkner | i haven't figured all that out yet | 23:28 |
| jelkner | we need to talk to tom (who seems not to be present) and jinty about this | 23:29 |
| pcardune | so the main issue is that we don't have the connections/resources to get it into dapper, | 23:29 |
| jelkner | let's back up a minute | 23:30 |
| jelkner | we have another issue | 23:30 |
| jelkner | "cando" can not be trade marked (dave and i already checked on this) | 23:30 |
| jelkner | so we are going to need to rename it | 23:30 |
| pcardune | oh boy | 23:30 |
| jelkner | cando was a good name | 23:31 |
| jelkner | but we weren't the first to use it :-( | 23:31 |
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| ffsnoopy | i noticed that too | 23:31 |
| jelkner | my question is this: do we need a name at all? | 23:31 |
| ffsnoopy | whats the fun if it doesnt have one? | 23:32 |
| jelkner | it does have a name, schooltool | 23:32 |
| jelkner | which is already trademarked | 23:32 |
| ffsnoopy | ... | 23:32 |
| pcardune | right... but... this is not schooltool | 23:32 |
| pcardune | it is a schooltool *addon* | 23:32 |
| ffsnoopy | if you want to throw out some creativity, then thats fine keeping it schooltool | 23:32 |
| ffsnoopy | but im with paul on this one | 23:32 |
| pcardune | not all schools will want this functionality | 23:33 |
| jelkner | true | 23:33 |
| jelkner | but most will | 23:33 |
| jelkner | and it is being written as a variation on the gradebook, yes? | 23:33 |
| pcardune | yeah | 23:33 |
| jelkner | so really, it is schooltool competency tracking | 23:34 |
| jelkner | just like we have a schooltool grade book | 23:34 |
| ffsnoopy | would it be infringement if we kept cando, but not trademarked? | 23:34 |
| jelkner | we need to ask tom | 23:34 |
| jelkner | if cando is the name of our addon to schooltool, maybe we can | 23:35 |
| pcardune | but "competency tracking" is very open ended... schooltool with *virginia* competency tracking makes more sense, and only virginia schools want that | 23:35 |
| jelkner | not at all | 23:36 |
| jelkner | OSHA wants competency tracking | 23:36 |
| pcardune | basically, if we make the competency tracking package/framework general enough to be for a wider audience, then it wont have the things virginia needs | 23:36 |
| jelkner | ?? | 23:36 |
| pcardune | for example, only in virginia do they care about flagging a competency as "sensitive" | 23:37 |
| pcardune | right now, that's hard coded, you can't get cando, without a "sensitive" flag | 23:37 |
| pcardune | I mean, I like your idea, it just means that someone is going to have to flesh out what competency tracking is very carefully | 23:38 |
| pcardune | so that it works for everybody | 23:38 |
| jelkner | we did that last week | 23:38 |
| jelkner | my contention is that we can't make it work for "everybody" | 23:38 |
| jelkner | we can only make it work for our customers | 23:38 |
| ffsnoopy | you dont want to think too much about generalities | 23:39 |
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| ffsnoopy | so yes, it should be specific | 23:39 |
| jelkner | the whole xp philosophy is that we will get the best software by taking care of our customers real needs | 23:39 |
| jelkner | my needs are general enough already | 23:39 |
| jelkner | so that whatever we come up with can be modified later to meet specific needs of other customers | 23:40 |
| pcardune | your needs are fine, the portfolio can have it's own package within schooltool, that's something I could see everyone wanting | 23:40 |
| jelkner | (particularly those willing to pay ;-) | 23:40 |
| pcardune | I think the main problem is the customer, if the customer is one person, who is relatively flexible on the way they do things, it will work | 23:41 |
| jelkner | the customers at present are: | 23:41 |
| jelkner | 1. dave welsh | 23:41 |
| jelkner | (and all those he represents) | 23:41 |
| jelkner | 2. me | 23:41 |
| pcardune | but if it is a huge bureacracy, we can't say, "competency ids are too arbitrary to be useful, so you will have to live without them" | 23:41 |
| jelkner | 3. tom hoffman (since it needs to work with the gradebook) | 23:41 |
| jelkner | you shouldn't need to make the customer live without anything the want if they are willing to spend the needed resources to get it | 23:42 |
| jelkner | i don't understand | 23:42 |
| jelkner | s/the/they | 23:43 |
| jelkner | th1a: tom, are you here? | 23:43 |
| pcardune | well, you know that record sheet that the state of virginia wants teachers to keep | 23:43 |
| pcardune | SCR i think we called it | 23:43 |
| jelkner | the scr | 23:43 |
| jelkner | student competency record | 23:44 |
| jelkner | yes, what about it? | 23:44 |
| pcardune | well what happens when each enduser has a different format for their SCR that includes different kinds of data | 23:44 |
| jelkner | ok, i'm glad you brought that up | 23:44 |
| jelkner | the xp philosophy says, no big design up front | 23:45 |
| jelkner | instead we get real software meeting real needs at every step of the process | 23:45 |
| jelkner | we might not have a situation like you describe until schooltool 2008 | 23:45 |
| jelkner | or whenever | 23:46 |
| jelkner | in the mean time you solve the problems of the customer you have | 23:46 |
| jelkner | and you do the simplest thing that works | 23:46 |
| jelkner | later you may decide: now we have 4 customers with 4 different reporting forms | 23:46 |
| pcardune | well, I guess it's really up to you and tom to decide | 23:47 |
| jelkner | it now makes sense to make reporting forms plug in modules | 23:47 |
| jelkner | but at this point we don't need the extra weight of plug-in modules for forms | 23:47 |
| jelkner | since we only have one form | 23:47 |
| jelkner | keep things as simple as possible | 23:48 |
| jelkner | (but no simpler ;-) | 23:48 |
| jelkner | this is a huge project | 23:48 |
| jelkner | it will be in development for years | 23:48 |
| jelkner | that's why i am so concerned about good practices | 23:48 |
| pcardune | the thing is, schooltool, right now, is in the phase of "gosh, we really need plugins for this" | 23:49 |
| jelkner | fine, then the customer for that is tom | 23:49 |
| pcardune | ok then | 23:49 |
| jelkner | so you get user stories from him on that | 23:49 |
| jelkner | it is his story | 23:50 |
| jelkner | i wish he was here for this | 23:50 |
| pcardune | ok, that's fine i guess | 23:50 |
| jelkner | you sound unconvinced | 23:50 |
| jelkner | (the "i guess" gives it away ;-) | 23:51 |
| pcardune | well, it's just in that the way I have been doing things has been in a really specific manner | 23:51 |
| jelkner | explain | 23:51 |
| pcardune | like, in cando, the new package that uses the requirement framework is called "virginia" | 23:51 |
| pcardune | and the subclass of Requirement is called VirginiaCompetency | 23:52 |
| jelkner | that sounds good | 23:52 |
| pcardune | I did that, in the code, to make the distinction that these data types were specific to the way virginia deals with competencies | 23:52 |
| jelkner | fine, they are at present | 23:52 |
| jelkner | so what's the problem? | 23:53 |
| pcardune | working with stephan, i learned that it is very important for class attributes to be representative of the attributes universally used for that object | 23:54 |
| jelkner | for polymorphism's sake, yes? | 23:54 |
| pcardune | for example, its bad to have a bunch of keyword arguments in a constructor since they are not required. keywords should more often than not be annotations and have nothing to do with the main component | 23:55 |
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| jelkner | hi jinty! | 23:56 |
| pcardune | what you've been saying makes me think I should scrap the virginia module, and just right views for adding annotations to the Requirement object | 23:56 |
| jelkner | let me ask you this: why did you decide on a virginia module? | 23:57 |
| jelkner | does it make it easier for you to impliment the user stories you are working on? | 23:57 |
| pcardune | because I thought it was a very specific and concrete form of the requirement framework | 23:58 |
| jelkner | will using it make it easier for you to get me running code? | 23:58 |
| jelkner | if the answer is yes, then keep it for now | 23:58 |
| jelkner | i'll look into the functional tests during the week | 23:59 |
| pcardune | well, i'll think about it | 23:59 |
| jinty | hey jelkner | 23:59 |
| pcardune | implementation that is | 23:59 |
| jelkner | hey jinty! | 23:59 |
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