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| pcardune | srichter: If I'm making a viewlet for the Person page, should i put the viewletManager configuration and interface with all the other ones? or in the person package? | 16:24 |
|---|---|---|
| mgedmin | pcardune, where is the viewlet manager used? | 16:26 |
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| pcardune | only on the Person page | 16:27 |
| mgedmin | if it is only used in a template that in turn is only used on persons | 16:27 |
| mgedmin | I suggest you define the viewlet manager in schooltool.person.browser | 16:27 |
| pcardune | ok, it's just that the other ones are defined in a skin.py file, should i make the same in schooltool.person.browser? | 16:28 |
| srichter | pcardune: viewlet manager goes into the person package | 16:28 |
| pcardune | ok | 16:28 |
| srichter | the viewlets go into the package they belong | 16:29 |
| srichter | or a glue package, which we have not defined well yet | 16:30 |
| th1a | OK, time to start the meeting. | 16:31 |
| th1a | Everyone awake? | 16:32 |
| srichter | yep | 16:32 |
| * mgedmin is | 16:32 | |
| ignas | yep | 16:34 |
| * mgedmin hungry :( | 16:34 | |
| th1a | OK, so we'll be doing a snapshot tomorrow. | 16:34 |
| th1a | jinty unfortunately couldn't make it. | 16:34 |
| th1a | His question is "Are all the generations that need to be done done?" | 16:35 |
| srichter | as far as I know, yes | 16:36 |
| srichter | (on my side) | 16:36 |
| srichter | but of course we will not figure this out until people really try it on their data | 16:36 |
| th1a | It doesn't seem to me that this release has a lot of changes that would require generations. | 16:36 |
| srichter | it has all the restructuring :-) | 16:37 |
| srichter | that's a lot! | 16:37 |
| th1a | So does everything have to be converted from, say, "app.person" to "person.person"? | 16:38 |
| srichter | yes | 16:38 |
| alga | eek! | 16:39 |
| alga | smells like pre-namegeddon zope 3 | 16:39 |
| th1a | But you tried to do all of that? | 16:39 |
| srichter | there is a generation for that | 16:39 |
| srichter | yep | 16:39 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:39 |
| th1a | Any known generational issues on POV's side? | 16:40 |
| mgedmin | I cannot think of any | 16:40 |
| th1a | OS. | 16:41 |
| th1a | OK. | 16:41 |
| th1a | Since this is just a development snapshot, it isn't a big deal anyhow. | 16:41 |
| th1a | Comparatively. | 16:42 |
| th1a | So srichter and I got sample data generation going for attendance data. | 16:42 |
| th1a | It was an interesting experience. | 16:42 |
| alga | it is part of our proposal, I suppose | 16:43 |
| alga | how do we go about that? | 16:43 |
| th1a | Well, we uncovered some problems, so | 16:43 |
| th1a | maybe it will all be a wash. | 16:44 |
| alga | A wash? | 16:44 |
| th1a | It will all come out even in the end. | 16:44 |
| alga | *nod* | 16:44 |
| th1a | So we discovered that | 16:44 |
| th1a | a) srichter's laptop only has 512mb, rather than 1gig, as he thought; | 16:45 |
| th1a | b) generating the sample data for 1 semester requires several times that much memory, even when committing the data to the ZODB regularly; | 16:46 |
| alga | (perhaps we should make sample data scalable down?) | 16:46 |
| th1a | c) the ZODB ballooned to about 750mb. | 16:46 |
| srichter | about 800 MB ;-) | 16:46 |
| alga | aha | 16:46 |
| th1a | c) being the biggest problem. | 16:46 |
| alga | so our current attendance storage is impractical | 16:46 |
| srichter | I think there are some obvious improvements | 16:47 |
| th1a | We only ran it once, and it was a slightly unrealistic set. | 16:47 |
| alga | suggestion: what if we ditch the persistent workflows? :-) | 16:47 |
| srichter | (a) we tested with 50% tardies, none of which gets resoved (that means a lot of WF instances, which is not realistic) | 16:47 |
| th1a | Right. | 16:47 |
| ignas | true | 16:47 |
| srichter | (b) only store tardies and not the attendence | 16:48 |
| th1a | So if the persistent workflows are costly, it is an unrealistic example. | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | how many attendance records did you generate? | 16:48 |
| ignas | is there something like a ZODB profiler | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | (I suppose that's n_students * n_sections_per_day * n_days) | 16:48 |
| ignas | that tells how much space what classes take | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | ignas, actually, there is | 16:48 |
| mgedmin | you have to fish it out of Google, of course | 16:49 |
| srichter | 1000 students * 6 sections per days * about 80 days | 16:49 |
| th1a | More precisely, store or log the attendances without creating separate objects (create a dictionary of successful attendances). | 16:49 |
| srichter | now that we can iterate through all active object instances in the ZODB, writing a small profiler ourselves will be easy | 16:49 |
| th1a | We'll need something like that. | 16:51 |
| th1a | But we should also be able to get a pretty good idea by trying different combinations of sample data and checking the differences. | 16:51 |
| srichter | to see how the iteration through the DB works, see evolve5.py | 16:52 |
| mgedmin | what's the size of a pickled AttendanceRecord? | 16:52 |
| srichter | we have not got that far | 16:52 |
| srichter | we spent a lot of time getting the generation of attendance to work and then waiting for the output :-) | 16:52 |
| srichter | I have a 792 MB Data.fs on my laptop that I could upload for inspection | 16:53 |
| th1a | srichter and I spent a fair amount of time observing his laptop's swapping alogrithms in action. | 16:53 |
| ignas | reminds me of trying out schooltool with darcs ... | 16:54 |
| mgedmin | 512 bytes | 16:54 |
| srichter | I'll also note that my laptop takes 116 seconds to start ST with that Data.fs used; | 16:55 |
| srichter | mgedmin: wow, that seems big for the amount of attendance records we have | 16:55 |
| srichter | well, anyways, I am not sure why Tom wants to record positive attendance at all | 16:55 |
| srichter | because not having an entry is a state too | 16:56 |
| th1a | I'll refer to the "attendance records being subpoenaed for a trial" case. | 16:56 |
| mgedmin | the pickle looks like this: | 16:56 |
| mgedmin | "ccopy_reg\n__newobj__\np0\n(cschooltool.attendance.attendance\nSectionAttendanceRecord\np1\ntp2\nRp3\n(dp4\nS'status'\np5\nS'PRESENT'\np6\nsS'section'\np7\ng0\n(cpersistent\nPersistent\np8\ntp9\nRp10\nsS'datetime'\np11\ncdatetime\ndatetime\np12\n(S'\\x07\\xd6\\x01\\x07\\x0e\\x16\\x00\\x00\\x00\\x00'\np13\ncpytz\n_UTC\np14\n(tRp15\ntp16\nRp17\nsS'period_id'\np18\nS'P1'\np19\nsS'late_arrival'\np20\nNsS'duration'\np21\ncdatetime\ntimedelta\np22\n(I1\nI0\nI0 | 16:56 |
| mgedmin | \ntp23\nRp24\nsS'explanations'\np25\ng0\n(cpersistent.list\nPersistentList\np26\ntp27\nRp28\n(dp29\nS'data'\np30\n(lp31\nsbsb." | 16:56 |
| mgedmin | a lot of references to module and class names | 16:56 |
| srichter | yep | 16:57 |
| th1a | SchoolTool records may be used to prove a student was in class. | 16:57 |
| mgedmin | and 800 megs is not too high a price to pay for that "may" ;) | 16:57 |
| th1a | So we have to have a positive indication, not just a lack of negative. | 16:57 |
| srichter | yeah, but if you ask SchoolTool. it says: Okay, I have no entry, so I tell the user the student was there | 16:57 |
| th1a | Teachers don't always take attendance. | 16:58 |
| srichter | ok, I see a problem ..... right, I just noticed that :-) | 16:58 |
| ignas | we can track unknown and absent | 16:58 |
| th1a | Look, there are a lot more efficient ways to store this data anyhow. | 16:58 |
| ignas | the rest will be presents | 16:58 |
| srichter | true | 16:58 |
| mgedmin | ignas, the set of unknowns is infinite | 16:58 |
| th1a | If we have to, it is acceptable to only *log* attendances. | 16:59 |
| th1a | But couldn't we also create a dictionary of attendances for each kid? | 16:59 |
| mgedmin | anyway, it is a problem that can be solved | 17:00 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:00 |
| alga | Shall we move on to the next item on the agenda? | 17:01 |
| th1a | I should be able to have the test data in the snaphot. I'll work on it today. | 17:01 |
| th1a | Make it more realistic. | 17:01 |
| alga | Anyway, we have some news here. | 17:01 |
| th1a | And perhaps limit it to a month ;-) | 17:01 |
| th1a | alga: Go ahead. | 17:01 |
| alga | mgedmin and ignas will be working on SchoolTool from now on till the end of this contract | 17:02 |
| th1a | That's good news. | 17:02 |
| alga | /me and vidas will be joining once we're done with our other commitments | 17:02 |
| alga | erm... | 17:03 |
| th1a | Or perhaps it is bad news. | 17:04 |
| alga | we took a look at our corkboard and chose homeroom related things as the next stories to go | 17:04 |
| th1a | Depending on what I should have been expecting. | 17:04 |
| mgedmin | that reminds me; when we're done with the meeting's official agenda, I'll have some questions about the homeroom attendance form | 17:04 |
| th1a | Yes, we need to discuss a couple things. | 17:05 |
| th1a | About that form. | 17:05 |
| th1a | The only other thing on the agenda would just be any other loose ends about the release, like we should probably add 2006 to the copyright info. | 17:06 |
| th1a | Any thing else spring to mind that should be done? | 17:06 |
| th1a | If not, then perhaps mgedmin and I should discuss the attendance form. | 17:08 |
| mgedmin | no last minute things come to mind | 17:08 |
| th1a | OK. What are your questions then, mgedmin? | 17:09 |
| mgedmin | the whole workflow (there's that word again) from the user's perspective | 17:10 |
| mgedmin | when a user defines a timetable with the tt wizard | 17:10 |
| mgedmin | he can mark one period per day as the homeroom period | 17:10 |
| th1a | Yes. | 17:10 |
| mgedmin | later some section might or might not be scheduled in that period | 17:10 |
| mgedmin | I suppose homeroom attendance is taken in groups | 17:10 |
| mgedmin | and I suppose there is more than one such group in the whole school | 17:11 |
| mgedmin | am I right? | 17:11 |
| th1a | I'm not sure what you mean by "in groups." | 17:11 |
| mgedmin | does everyone in the school collect in one big big room, and have their attendance taken at the same time? | 17:12 |
| mgedmin | or are there smaller groups meeting in different rooms with different teachers taking homeroom attendance? | 17:12 |
| th1a | They are regular class-sized groups. | 17:12 |
| th1a | In separate classrooms. | 17:12 |
| th1a | Usually. | 17:12 |
| mgedmin | will these groups correspond to some section in SchoolTool? | 17:13 |
| th1a | Precisely. | 17:13 |
| mgedmin | good | 17:13 |
| mgedmin | how do I tell that section from other, ordinary sections? | 17:13 |
| th1a | Because they take place during the homeroom period. | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | yay | 17:14 |
| mgedmin | so the 'Attendance' links in calendar views will take the user either to the section attendance form, or to the homeroom attendance form | 17:15 |
| th1a | Sincere yay or sarcastic yay. | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | depending on whether that period is a homeroom period or not | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | that was a sincere yay | 17:15 |
| th1a | Yes, that is right. | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | actually, I suppose I can use the same URL for both attendance forms | 17:15 |
| mgedmin | and modify our traverser to dispatch to the appropriate view | 17:16 |
| mgedmin | ok, this gives me a clear idea of what needs to be done | 17:16 |
| th1a | It might be desirable to use the same URL, so it could be bookmarked. | 17:16 |
| mgedmin | I have no more questions right now | 17:16 |
| mgedmin | bookmarkable urls for attendance forms aren't possible right now | 17:16 |
| mgedmin | 'cause the url contains a date | 17:16 |
| th1a | Oh, right. | 17:16 |
| mgedmin | maybe if you just go to '/attendance' | 17:17 |
| mgedmin | it could find out the nearest meeting time | 17:17 |
| mgedmin | (for some definiton of nearest) | 17:17 |
| th1a | Could we make the sparkline not add the current period, so it shows the 10 previous days? | 17:17 |
| th1a | But not the current one? | 17:18 |
| mgedmin | that should not be hard | 17:18 |
| th1a | srichter and I briefly showed the form to some folks from the school in Boston we might be working with. | 17:20 |
| th1a | They thought that they'd want to be able to mark a student tardy without making them absent first. | 17:20 |
| alga | of course they would | 17:21 |
| th1a | It just depends on whether you're really taking attendance in real time or somewhat retrospectively. | 17:21 |
| ignas | with some modifications to the workflow it should be doable ... | 17:22 |
| ignas | but we would need some intermediate state | 17:22 |
| ignas | that dispatches to absent/tardy | 17:22 |
| ignas | dependin gon the workflow specific data (a string or date) | 17:22 |
| th1a | ignas: Why would we need an intermediate state? | 17:23 |
| ignas | because workflow must begin somewhere, at the moment it starts out as an unexplained abscence | 17:23 |
| th1a | So couldn't checking "tardy" just make it skip through two steps? | 17:24 |
| th1a | Or is that bad form? | 17:24 |
| ignas | why do we need a workflow then ? | 17:24 |
| ignas | if we are not sticking to it | 17:24 |
| ignas | we can do that though | 17:24 |
| alga | right. making it in the view is easy enough | 17:25 |
| th1a | I guess the current workflow is maybe overly tied to the process of realtime attendance, which is the only time you want to create absences and convert them to tardies. | 17:26 |
| ignas | in this case wqe have only one participant so i guess doing 2 steps of workflow in one click | 17:26 |
| ignas | is not wrong | 17:26 |
| th1a | I've always been planning that there would also have to be a separate form optimized for retrospective entry of attendance, particularly for schools that don't have computers in every classroom. | 17:28 |
| th1a | That would definitely have separate checkboxes for absences and tardies. | 17:28 |
| srichter | the answer is that the view should do the first two workflow items for you, when tardy was marked | 17:28 |
| th1a | OK, that's an hour. | 17:30 |
| th1a | Thanks everyone! | 17:30 |
| th1a | It will be nice to give people a look at what we've been up to. | 17:30 |
| * th1a bangs the virtual gavel. | 17:31 | |
| srichter | oh, btw, going to the school gave me a reality check | 17:31 |
| srichter | I think once we get closer to having functionality, we should release something fairly often | 17:32 |
| * th1a wonders what srichter's view of reality was. | 17:32 | |
| th1a | "Release" in the sense of having our partners give us feedback. | 17:32 |
| mgedmin | issues.schooltool.org is overflowing with feedback | 17:33 |
| srichter | that we need a truely easy interface | 17:33 |
| srichter | and that we need to get feedback as much as possible | 17:33 |
| srichter | mgedmin: yeah, but I would like really structured feedback, that is also prioritized, etc | 17:36 |
| srichter | we are interested in the feedback from our partners more than anyone else too | 17:37 |
| th1a | Unfortunately we have/need both retrospective and prospective feedback. | 17:37 |
| srichter | right | 17:38 |
| th1a | Once the current POV contract is done, I'll let you decide how you want to sequence calendar bugfixing and more attendance work. | 17:38 |
| mgedmin | (it's not that I want to do bug fixing, it's that I feel guilty about not fixing bugs) | 17:39 |
| mgedmin | (or not having enough time to offer for schooltool work) | 17:40 |
| mgedmin | (or not finding enough time to write my master's thesis) | 17:40 |
| mgedmin | speaking of time, I'll die if I don't get some food soon | 17:40 |
| srichter | yep, time to go to the gym | 17:42 |
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| pcardune | th1a: I went ahead and refactored the person page (i.e. st/persons/someguy/@@index.html) to use viewlets. Should I commit my changes, or should i send someone a diff to look at first? | 18:46 |
| th1a | I'd say commit it. | 18:47 |
| th1a | If people have changes, that's why we use a version control system ;-) | 18:47 |
| pcardune | ok, will do | 18:47 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: * pcardune committed revision 5566: | 19:13 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Refactored person's page to use viewlets for information like courses, sections, groups, etc. | 19:13 |
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| erchache | hi | 20:25 |
| erchache | where i can get irc chats logs? | 20:25 |
| th1a | Ah, I meant to ask that myself. It seems that povbot has been down. | 20:25 |
| th1a | Er, um, actually, I guess povbot is here. | 20:25 |
| th1a | But the logs don't seem to be updated for the past couple weeks. | 20:26 |
| erchache | when next release of schooltool/schoolbell be avalaible? | 20:26 |
| th1a | The next production release... not sure. | 20:26 |
| erchache | dont talk about this today? | 20:27 |
| th1a | There will be a development snapshot tomorrow, but that's not something that will be usable. | 20:28 |
| erchache | and when? | 20:29 |
| mgedmin | what? | 20:29 |
| th1a | We haven't been working on calendaring. | 20:29 |
| mgedmin | th1a, irclogs are up to date | 20:29 |
| erchache | ok | 20:30 |
| th1a | Oh... you're right. | 20:30 |
| th1a | I see what confused me... aside from the fact that I was looking at 2:00 AM. | 20:31 |
| th1a | Never mind. | 20:31 |
| th1a | erchache: They're at http://source.schooltool.org/irclogs/ | 20:31 |
| mgedmin | pcardune, thanks for the viewlet refactoring | 20:32 |
| mgedmin | (although I'd be much happier if you committed the unit tests for the viewlets as well) | 20:32 |
| th1a | Ah, good point. I'd be happier, too. | 20:32 |
| erchache | well...more critical bug are recursive events | 20:36 |
| erchache | i cant add events more long than 1 month :-S | 20:38 |
| erchache | and are on schooltool and schoolbell :-P | 20:38 |
| erchache | a structural bug! | 20:38 |
| mgedmin | ignas convinced me to spend 10 minutes to set up a trac instance for SchoolTool | 20:39 |
| mgedmin | here it is: http://source.schooltool.org/trac/ | 20:39 |
| mgedmin | the timeline and the source browser are nice | 20:39 |
| mgedmin | we don't really need the wiki, roadmap and the issue tracker | 20:40 |
| erchache | perhaps | 20:40 |
| erchache | but for external users can be useful | 20:40 |
| erchache | you know? | 20:40 |
| th1a | I'm afraid I'd rather move to Malone. | 20:40 |
| mgedmin | (that is, we already have the equivalent of things on www.schooltool.org and issues.schooltool.org) | 20:40 |
| erchache | jejejejeje....all on my job are using gforge | 20:41 |
| erchache | and i say....trac must will be better.....install it instead gforge | 20:42 |
| erchache | nothing....dont hear me | 20:42 |
| mgedmin | I never used trac much | 20:42 |
| mgedmin | the wiki is nice | 20:42 |
| mgedmin | the timeline is very very nice | 20:42 |
| erchache | has a very very fast grow user number | 20:42 |
| mgedmin | the roadmap is inconvenient (you can't define milestones or components through the web without some extra plugins) | 20:42 |
| erchache | everybody speak that on next year must be better than gforge | 20:43 |
| th1a | I need to do this: | 20:46 |
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| th1a|edubu | xpdl_dir = os.path.dirname(__file__) | 20:48 |
| th1a|edubu | package = xpdl.read(open(os.path.join(xpdl_dir, 'promotion.xpdl'))) | 20:48 |
| th1a|edubu | Except the xpdl file is in the parent directory. | 20:48 |
| th1a|edubu | How do I get the parent directory properly? | 20:50 |
| mgedmin | os.path.dirname() | 20:52 |
| mgedmin | one more time | 20:53 |
| th1a | Oh, do it twice. | 20:53 |
| th1a | Knew it had to be something obvious. | 20:53 |
| mgedmin | actually, os.path.dirname(os.path.dirname(__file__)) might not work if __file__ is in the current directory | 20:54 |
| mgedmin | os.path.normpath(os.path.join(__file__, os.pardir, os.pardir, 'promotion.xpdl')) | 20:54 |
| mgedmin | might be more reliable | 20:54 |
| mgedmin | (although I think we use the dirname(dirname(...)) trick in a few places) | 20:54 |
| th1a | I'll give it a shot. | 20:55 |
| mgedmin | in the long term we should use pkg_resources from setuptools | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | so that people can build a schooltool egg | 20:58 |
| mgedmin | http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/PythonEggs | 20:58 |
| th1a | Yes, that seems like the next big thing. | 20:59 |
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| pcardune | \me just looked at python eggs and thinks they are awesome | 21:06 |
| pcardune | woops... wrong slash | 21:07 |
| mgedmin | I just wish setuptools made it into the stdlib by the time 2.5 is released | 21:08 |
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| povbot | /svn/commits: * pcardune committed revision 5567: | 22:11 |
| povbot | /svn/commits: Updated tests for the various viewlets used on a Person's page. Obsolete methods from PersonView were removed, in otherwords, all of the methods were removed | 22:11 |
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| th1a | A little post I just wrote about adapters: http://tuttlesvc.teacherhosting.com/wordpress/?p=31 | 22:27 |
| pcardune | that's a great subtitle by the way | 22:30 |
| mgedmin | gaah, my firefox is broken | 22:30 |
| mgedmin | I hate Flash | 22:31 |
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| mgedmin | th1a, what happened to Planet SchoolTool? | 23:00 |
| mgedmin | "Last updated: August 24, 2005 04:05 AM" | 23:00 |
| th1a | It broke. | 23:00 |
| th1a | Something very strange happened on that server, which I've never quite figured out. | 23:01 |
| th1a | Lots of things got randomly corrupted on August 24. | 23:01 |
| th1a | I could probably bring it back to life by reinstalling it. | 23:02 |
| th1a | I'll try to do that. | 23:02 |
| th1a | I guess I should really put it on the new server. | 23:02 |
| th1a | It has never quite risen to the top of the to-do list. | 23:03 |
| mgedmin | If you might want to take a look at http://planetplus.python-hosting.com/ | 23:05 |
| mgedmin | or maybe not: "The code is currently pre-alpha but works and is actively being developed. | 23:06 |
| mgedmin | " | 23:06 |
| mgedmin | although web-based administration sounds very interesting | 23:06 |
| th1a | Is Planet in python? I've forgotten. | 23:06 |
| mgedmin | I might want to take a look at planet plus | 23:06 |
| mgedmin | yes, Planet is written in Python | 23:06 |
| * mgedmin yawns and looks at his warch | 23:07 | |
| th1a | Ah. Yes. | 23:07 |
| mgedmin | trac's timeline could use a sparkline | 23:09 |
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| *** mgedmin has quit IRC | 23:11 | |
| th1a | srichter: I'm stuck trying to get this attendance sample data test setup right so I don't get a ComponentLookupError for IProcessDefinition. | 23:16 |
| *** Aiste has joined #schooltool | 23:27 | |
| th1a | I think I should just use a functional test for the sample data. | 23:31 |
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| th1a | srichter: It looks like performance isn't really an issue in the sample data generation anymore. | 23:36 |
| th1a | At least on my box it is just flying along, and not eating memory at all. | 23:36 |
| th1a | Weird. | 23:36 |
| th1a | Our first version of the loop must have been more profoundly inefficient than we thought. | 23:38 |
| th1a | Hm. Ok, so my Data.fs is only 72MB as well. I'll kick the absence rate back up to 50% and see what happens. | 23:41 |
| srichter | th1a: what was your absence rate? | 23:47 |
| th1a | 20% | 23:47 |
| srichter | huh, interesting | 23:48 |
| th1a | Something completely weird was going on before. | 23:48 |
| th1a | I have it committing every 100 sections again and it is just ripping along. | 23:49 |
| th1a | No memory leakage at all. | 23:49 |
| srichter | cool | 23:51 |
| th1a | It says 104 seconds to generate the section attendance in CPU time. | 23:51 |
| srichter | for 80%? | 23:52 |
| srichter | or for 50%? | 23:52 |
| th1a | 50% | 23:52 |
| srichter | mmh, strange indeed | 23:53 |
| th1a | Well, there is a little more strange behaviour actually. | 23:54 |
| th1a | Te attendance data doesn't actually seem to be there! | 23:54 |
| th1a | Ah! | 23:54 |
| th1a | Er. | 23:55 |
| srichter | he he | 23:56 |
| th1a | Something is very wrong. | 23:56 |
| th1a | It is only doing one student per section. | 23:57 |
| th1a | No wonder it is working so well. | 23:57 |
| srichter | I sent you exactely what I had | 23:57 |
| th1a | We changed the loops without actually trying it. | 23:58 |
| th1a | I'm not blaming you ;-) | 23:58 |
| srichter | ohhh, darn | 23:59 |
| srichter | ok | 23:59 |
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