| th1a | alga: That's bskahan's work. | 00:02 |
|---|---|---|
| th1a | I'll have to figure out how to integrate that into a Plone page. | 00:04 |
| bskahan | th1a: it should pretty much drop in, I was just too lazy to upload all the images and change the href paths | 00:13 |
| th1a | OK. | 00:16 |
| th1a | What we really need is the photo album product installed on the site. | 00:17 |
| th1a | Then it will be easier to upload batches of screenshots. | 00:17 |
| th1a | I've avoided nagging mgedmin about dealing with Plone administration. | 00:17 |
| th1a | Here's an interesting tidbit: SchoolMation was an Open Source product but has ceased to be unfortunately because of abuse of the GPL license. We are not happy about this but are forced to do it | 00:18 |
| th1a | I wonder what they mean by "abuse of the GPL?" | 00:24 |
| alga | hm | 00:25 |
| th1a | "People using our product without giving us money?" | 00:26 |
| alga | seriously? they died because of that? | 00:32 |
| alga | fell victim to misunderstood open source advocacy | 00:33 |
| th1a | It is still available with a commercial license. | 00:33 |
| th1a | And they'll do a "shared source" thing on request. | 00:33 |
| th1a | I sent them a query as to what the "abuse" was. | 00:33 |
| alga | Tom, there's one more important bit of functionality missing from SB 1.0 | 00:44 |
| alga | i18n | 00:44 |
| FarcePest | i think the page for 1.0 says they didn't have time to finish it | 00:44 |
| alga | yep | 00:44 |
| alga | I just think it should be added to the SB 1.1 stories | 00:46 |
| * bskahan agrees | 01:05 | |
| bskahan | "abuse of the GPL" == "Woops, we didn't know someone else could go and sell it" | 01:06 |
| bskahan | speaking of the GPL | 01:06 |
| bskahan | will SchoolTool third party applications be required to be GPL | 01:07 |
| FarcePest | http://www.schoolmation.com/schoolmationweb/main/smguides/SM_datafields.pdf | 01:09 |
| FarcePest | i would paste in the relevant section, but i seem to be having trouble with the google cache | 01:11 |
| bskahan | heh | 01:11 |
| FarcePest | A number of application pages within SchoolMation Version 2.0 are now encrypted | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | because of third-party companies who, before we took these measures, have misused | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | and illegally taken our open source code outside of the scope of the GPL it was issued | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | under. Some are now trying to inappropriately sell SchoolMation code under their own | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | brand. Some companies have added functionality of their own while others have not. | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | We are trying to stop companies such as these from abusing us and it is not our | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | attempt to try and hide code from our valued customers. If you need to change code in | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | the system then please contact us and we will try as best we can to supply a version to | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | you that has the pages unencrypted that you need to change. Please do not ask for | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | entire application to be unencrypted, as we cannot do this. We want to empower you | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | as much as we can and obviously we want you to be happy with SchoolMation. Its | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | roots are open source and we will honor this as much as possible as long as we do not | 01:12 |
| FarcePest | leave this new version open to abuse. | 01:12 |
| bskahan | interesting | 01:15 |
| FarcePest | yeah, sounds like their issue wasn't with adhering to the GPL, it was other people not adhering, and for whatever reason, deciding not to take legal action | 01:17 |
| alga | copyright violation, stricly speaking | 01:34 |
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| th1a | Regardless, if these really are violations of the license or copyright they'd have other legal recourse. | 02:00 |
| bskahan | also, the old source is still covered by the GPL | 02:06 |
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| th1a | Nonetheless, a useful bit of info for the paper I need to finish tonight. | 02:06 |
| th1a | FarcePest: Thanks for tracking down the longer explanation. | 02:06 |
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| bskahan | another thing that I think is good to target for STC 1.0 | 02:32 |
| bskahan | http://issues.schooltool.org/issue217 | 02:32 |
| bskahan | making the basic find dialog work | 02:32 |
| bskahan | after 1.0 we probably need a beefier find system | 02:32 |
| bskahan | but I can't imagine getting "find by Name or Username" is that hard | 02:33 |
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| * bskahan sees nothing about registering with "Find" in srichter's book though | 02:44 | |
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| skel_home | =] | 02:48 |
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| ignas | our office is a sleepy placde | 12:32 |
| ignas | place | 12:32 |
| ignas | i wonder why ;) | 12:32 |
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| * jinty yawns | 13:37 | |
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| bskahan | is there any reason schoolbell.app.browser.app.PersonAddView has a __used_for__ but GroupAdd and ResourceAdd don't? | 14:58 |
| ignas | 2 bugs for you ! :) | 15:04 |
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| ignas | bskahan, isn't __used_for__ just a marker ? | 15:04 |
| * bskahan nods | 15:05 | |
| ignas | add 2 more :) | 15:05 |
| bskahan | just wondering if there's a reason we're using it someplaces not others | 15:05 |
| bskahan | I did ;) | 15:05 |
| ignas | and look at the brand new issues in issues.schooltool.org ;) | 15:05 |
| bskahan | I got the mail :-P | 15:06 |
| * bskahan assigns one to tvon | 15:06 | |
| ignas | got a bug? share it with your friend! | 15:07 |
| bskahan | well, I had 2, would be impolite not to share, don't want to offend him | 15:08 |
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| bskahan | gintas: is that data.fs from schoolbell-server or z3? | 15:53 |
| bskahan | oops, ignas | 15:53 |
| ignas | server | 15:56 |
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| bskahan | thanks | 15:56 |
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| th1a | bska|mobile: Have you ever seen metric sized paper in the US? e.g., A4 size? | 17:11 |
| th1a | For reasons not clear to me this guy in Italy wants me to send him a paper copy of my submission, in A4 size, but I'm not spending my day looking for A4 size paper. | 17:13 |
| th1a | Well, I'll look in one place... | 17:13 |
| bska|mobile | th1a: I'd try office depot/staples | 17:14 |
| * bska|mobile wouldn't look much further | 17:14 | |
| th1a | I'll drive over to Staples. | 17:14 |
| bska|mobile | call first | 17:15 |
| bska|mobile | since there's a good chance they don't have it | 17:15 |
| th1a | I was thinking call first, but the phone call might drive me crazy. | 17:15 |
| * bska|mobile adds metric paper sizes to his "SaneMeasurements" crusade | 17:15 | |
| bska|mobile | heh | 17:15 |
| th1a | "A4, it is a size of paper." | 17:15 |
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| th1a | No, not a color... | 17:16 |
| th1a | etc... | 17:16 |
| bska|mobile | yeah | 17:16 |
| th1a | Plus, Starbucks next door. | 17:16 |
| bska|mobile | oh, well, in that case | 17:16 |
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| th1a | Plus, can only write papers early in the morning, so I went to sleep at 5:00 AM. | 17:17 |
| th1a | Balances you yesterday's afternoon nap. | 17:17 |
| bska|mobile | ? | 17:18 |
| bska|mobile | http://people.csail.mit.edu/people/thouis/mb-full.png | 17:20 |
| bska|mobile | Marcus Baines Line | 17:20 |
| tvon | eh? | 17:21 |
| bska|mobile | small line at 2:45 | 17:22 |
| bska|mobile | indicates the current time | 17:22 |
| bska|mobile | only shows up on the current day | 17:22 |
| tvon | ah | 17:22 |
| bska|mobile | in day and week view | 17:22 |
| tvon | been thinking about that sorta thing. I think to do it well we would need either autorefresh or a js ticker | 17:22 |
| bska|mobile | hrm | 17:23 |
| bska|mobile | that could be cool, but I'm not sure that having it set on load isn't useful | 17:23 |
| bska|mobile | s/could/would/ | 17:23 |
| bska|mobile | seen some js sliders that could do it | 17:23 |
| bska|mobile | really slick, would only reload the DOM for the 1 or 2 <div class="hour">s that are affected | 17:24 |
| bska|mobile | gmail style | 17:25 |
| bska|mobile | tvon: got rendering mostly working, except that early events (9am UTC) show up 'appropriately' positioned off the top of the page | 17:26 |
| bska|mobile | and, more exciting, daylight savings time works | 17:26 |
| tvon | cool | 17:27 |
| tvon | bska|mobile: did you pass the modified time to expand? | 17:27 |
| bska|mobile | yeah | 17:27 |
| tvon | odd | 17:27 |
| bska|mobile | the code that figures out the day's range isn't localized | 17:28 |
| tvon | oh, you mean that things before 8am show up in the wrong place? | 17:28 |
| bska|mobile | so the first event is 09:00, the page doesn't know to show that as 04:00 but the event knows its 04:00 | 17:28 |
| bska|mobile | yeah | 17:28 |
| * tvon nods | 17:29 | |
| bska|mobile | so its positioned at 04:00 | 17:29 |
| bska|mobile | relative to daystart = 08:00 | 17:29 |
| bska|mobile | somewhere around the browser menu bar | 17:29 |
| tvon | thats what they get for scheduling crap so early | 17:30 |
| * bska|mobile agrees | 17:30 | |
| * bska|mobile removes support for events before 8am local | 17:31 | |
| tvon | heh | 17:31 |
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| bska|mobile | tvon: should look at zope.i18n | 17:35 |
| bska|mobile | not directly useful atm, but good to know | 17:35 |
| bska|mobile | should have used (should use) that for date/time format | 17:36 |
| bska|mobile | could change the date/time preferences to short/long rather than cryptic geeky strings | 17:39 |
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| alga | th1a: ayt? | 17:51 |
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| tvon | anyone know what 209 is about? | 18:07 |
| tvon | er, 219 | 18:07 |
| tvon | the evolution thing from ignas | 18:07 |
| tvon | ah, nm | 18:08 |
| * bska|mobile nods | 18:08 | |
| alga | tvon, bska|mobile: when you you plan to start working on schooltool calendar 1.0? | 18:12 |
| alga | what are we gonna do about code layout etc. | 18:12 |
| bska|mobile | alga: we have some SB 1.1 things that we can do without worrying about StC layout | 18:14 |
| alga | but when do you plan to start SC? | 18:14 |
| bska|mobile | for StC 1.1 I had some ideas about code layout, but they could be complete cracj | 18:14 |
| bska|mobile | hopefully by monday | 18:14 |
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| alga | next week? | 18:15 |
| bska|mobile | yes | 18:15 |
| alga | I hope same here | 18:15 |
| bska|mobile | possibly next wednesday, depending on some SB 1.1 things | 18:15 |
| alga | OK, we'll see then | 18:15 |
| bska|mobile | I made an experimental ST source tree that basically lets you run schoolbell as schooltool with a pretty small schooltool.app.app and schooltool.app.main | 18:17 |
| bska|mobile | I'm not sure if that's a good starting point or not | 18:17 |
| bska|mobile | but it uses all the schoolbell objects and views by copying the schoolbell zcml files into the schooltool tree | 18:18 |
| bska|mobile | then as we diverge from schoolbell we can change the schooltool zcml to refer to schooltool.* ojects and views | 18:19 |
| alga | probably that's the right way to start | 18:19 |
| alga | we'll need special person and group objects | 18:19 |
| alga | to hang stuff on | 18:19 |
| * bska|mobile nods | 18:19 | |
| alga | and a new app object | 18:19 |
| alga | but the schoolbell config might be just included, not copied | 18:20 |
| bska|mobile | I don't know enough about zcml precedence | 18:21 |
| bska|mobile | eg., if we include schoolbell/browser/configure.zcml from schooltool/browser/configure.zcml then want to use a View from schooltool.app.browser for an object from schoolbell.app | 18:22 |
| bska|mobile | assuming we can say that schooltool/app/browser/configure.zcml has precedence | 18:23 |
| bska|mobile | that would work | 18:23 |
| * bska|mobile tries timeformat with zope.i18n | 18:29 | |
| bska|mobile | it doesn't really work well for US | 18:29 |
| bska|mobile | US we really only use hh:mm[:ss] and h:mm[:ss] [am|pm] | 18:30 |
| bska|mobile | neither of which is supported by en_US.xml | 18:30 |
| bska|mobile | or, en.xml actually | 18:31 |
| * tvon returns | 18:32 | |
| tvon | whats it support? | 18:32 |
| tvon | i18n/locales/data/en.xml ? | 18:35 |
| th1a | alga: I'm back. | 18:35 |
| bska|mobile | yeah | 18:35 |
| bska|mobile | it looks like it should | 18:35 |
| alga | th1a: what do we want for SC 1.0? | 18:35 |
| alga | basic timetabling? | 18:35 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 18:36 |
| bska|mobile | but I have it working and it doesn't render what I'd expect from the xml definition | 18:36 |
| alga | th1a: what about timetable exceptions? | 18:36 |
| th1a | I think we should get rid of timetable exceptions entirely. | 18:36 |
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| bska|mobile | th1a: even for snowdays, etc | 18:36 |
| bska|mobile | holidays | 18:37 |
| alga | really? as I programmer, I rejoice, but it looks like a needed piece of functionality | 18:37 |
| th1a | Holidays aren't timetable exceptions as such. | 18:37 |
| alga | s/as I/as a/ | 18:37 |
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| th1a | Well, the larger point is that we need to decide if we're going to express lots of other things as separate events or tied to timetable events. | 18:38 |
| th1a | For example, if I create an assignment due a certain class period, is that a separate calendar event, or is that somehow directly tied to the timetable? | 18:38 |
| bska|mobile | assigment-due would be an event I think | 18:39 |
| bska|mobile | maybe with a relationship to the section/section-calendar-event when its due | 18:40 |
| bska|mobile | from a UI perspective, it doesn't have to look like its seperate | 18:40 |
| th1a | That's probably true. | 18:41 |
| bska|mobile | eg., teacher goes to course timetable, create "assignment" for this class period | 18:41 |
| bska|mobile | but the assignment is some type of event itself | 18:41 |
| bska|mobile | well, the assignment-due is sometype of event | 18:42 |
| th1a | Anyhow, I think that if we keep the timetable itself static and express exceptions, related events, etc. as calendar events, we and our application will be much saner. | 18:42 |
| th1a | Assume that the use case for the timetable is the same as for the paper timetable you get at the beginning of the year. | 18:42 |
| th1a | You look at it for the first week or so, then put it away once you know where you're going. | 18:43 |
| bska|mobile | don't holidays work as exceptions though? | 18:43 |
| alga | no | 18:43 |
| alga | there is a schoolday calendar for that | 18:43 |
| bska|mobile | ah | 18:43 |
| bska|mobile | ok | 18:43 |
| alga | but if a teacher is sick, and the lesson is dropped, | 18:44 |
| alga | it's an exception | 18:44 |
| th1a | :-0 We don't do that in the US. | 18:44 |
| th1a | What do you mean exactly? | 18:44 |
| bska|mobile | the lesson is reschuled to the next time the teacher is here, or the subsitute 'teaches' it | 18:45 |
| alga | yeah | 18:45 |
| th1a | Yeah what? | 18:46 |
| tvon | hehe | 18:46 |
| alga | that's a timetable exception | 18:46 |
| alga | if you want to represent the rescheduling properly in the students' calendars, you need it | 18:46 |
| th1a | I don't understand what the necessary behavior is. | 18:46 |
| alga | :-) well, ok then :-) | 18:47 |
| th1a | I've got a 1:00 class on Tuesday and I'm taking a nap, I mean, I'm sick. | 18:48 |
| th1a | What's supposed to happen in the timetable? | 18:48 |
| alga | the admin reschedules your lesson to when you're going to be available | 18:48 |
| alga | and that is represented on the student's calendars | 18:48 |
| alga | he "deletes" the particular instance of the tt event | 18:49 |
| alga | and creates a new, ordinary calendar event | 18:49 |
| th1a | So I'm saying we don't really need to "delete" the original tt event. | 18:50 |
| alga | let it stay there? | 18:50 |
| alga | OK, if you think so. Makes life a lot easier for us | 18:51 |
| th1a | A lot of this comes down to the question of whether or not we expect a student or teacher to use the timetable overlay as part of their regular view. | 18:51 |
| th1a | If the timetable view is not going to automatically integrate a variety of up to date info, it is just clutter. | 18:51 |
| th1a | I think we should assume that people won't have it on most of the time. | 18:52 |
| bska|mobile | I'm not sure how much "Assignment", "Test" type stuff we plan on getting into StC | 18:53 |
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| th1a | Zero. | 18:53 |
| bska|mobile | I would think those things would show on the timeable | 18:53 |
| th1a | They're events. | 18:53 |
| bska|mobile | event's in the class calendar | 18:54 |
| th1a | Yeah. | 18:54 |
| bska|mobile | er | 18:54 |
| bska|mobile | section | 18:54 |
| bska|mobile | would the section inherit the timetable? | 18:54 |
| bska|mobile | eg., should the section calendar show every section meeting | 18:54 |
| th1a | That would just be clutter for the user. | 18:55 |
| bska|mobile | convient for the teacher, for setting the assignment event time to the section meeting time | 18:55 |
| th1a | Well, we should be able to do that via the UI. | 18:56 |
| th1a | The only hard part is if we want the assignment event time to change if there is a change in the schedule. | 18:57 |
| th1a | And we can easily avoid doing that for a year. | 18:58 |
| th1a | alga: I still have no clue how the attendance system works, so I'm not sure if timetable exceptions were necessary for that. | 18:59 |
| alga | attendance was not integrated with timetables | 19:01 |
| alga | afair | 19:01 |
| alga | or was it? | 19:02 |
| alga | I think you could just run a roll call, and the results would be recorded with current time | 19:03 |
| alga | so that the school administration could chase up and account for each case of absence | 19:04 |
| th1a | OK. That'll probably need to be tightened up a bit, when we get to it. | 19:04 |
| alga | what d oyou mean by "in a time-based schema, each period's slot is implicit"? | 19:07 |
| alga | period names are like "9:00" or "9:00-9:45"? | 19:08 |
| th1a | I noticed that didn't make any sense. | 19:10 |
| th1a | Note that I the chart I sent with the proposal originally was the wrong one. | 19:10 |
| th1a | I sent the right one a minute later. | 19:11 |
| th1a | Sorry about that. | 19:11 |
| th1a | Let me resend to make sure you have the right one. | 19:12 |
| th1a | Sent. | 19:14 |
| alga | I was looking at the simplified one | 19:15 |
| alga | the problem with it is that it mostly represents the steps in the UI | 19:15 |
| alga | not the innards of the system | 19:15 |
| th1a | Well, you guys know how that works, not me ;-) | 19:15 |
| alga | from what I see, we can use the existing timetabling code, just simplify the views | 19:16 |
| th1a | I don't think we need to change the innards in any obvious way. | 19:16 |
| alga | ok | 19:16 |
| alga | there's that one wart with day templates mapped by weekday | 19:16 |
| th1a | Right. I'm not anticipating a major overhaul. | 19:16 |
| alga | that needs to go at some point | 19:16 |
| th1a | Day templates mapped by weekday? | 19:17 |
| alga | remember your use case that all periods are shorter on Wednesdays? | 19:17 |
| th1a | Right. | 19:17 |
| alga | day template is a mapping of period id -> time slot | 19:18 |
| bska|mobile | tvon: +1 on the toolbar change | 19:18 |
| alga | that should really be part of the implementation of a timetable model, not in the interface | 19:19 |
| alga | so that people can define their own tt model with their peculiarities | 19:19 |
| alga | and their own views for it too... | 19:20 |
| th1a | That sounds reasonable. | 19:20 |
| alga | that's a good use case for a demo plugin, btw | 19:20 |
| th1a | I'll still need to be able to set up that schedule for our school here. As long as I can do that I'll be happy (although I'm assuming it won't be in SC 1.0). | 19:21 |
| alga | btw | 19:22 |
| th1a | Just keep in mind that a primary goal is making simple schedules simple to create. | 19:22 |
| th1a | And hard schedules possible. | 19:23 |
| alga | I had a thought yesterday, that there's too many confusing versions | 19:23 |
| alga | SB 1.0, SC 1.0, ST 0.9 | 19:23 |
| alga | ST 1.0 | 19:23 |
| alga | confusion | 19:23 |
| th1a | I know... | 19:23 |
| bska|mobile | StC | 19:24 |
| bska|mobile | SB | 19:24 |
| bska|mobile | ST | 19:24 |
| alga | St. C. | 19:24 |
| * bska|mobile nods | 19:25 | |
| bska|mobile | anything but SC | 19:25 |
| th1a | Warty, Hoary. | 19:25 |
| alga | what's wrong with SC? | 19:25 |
| bska|mobile | SC, SB, ST | 19:25 |
| alga | cool | 19:25 |
| alga | systematic :-) | 19:25 |
| alga | SA, SB, SC | 19:25 |
| alga | , ... , ST | 19:25 |
| bska|mobile | eek, we have a way to go | 19:26 |
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| alga | th1a: what kind of timetable entry view for the whole school do you want? | 20:54 |
| alga | the same like in 0.9? | 20:54 |
| th1a | Timetable entry view? | 21:03 |
| alga | yes | 21:04 |
| th1a | What does that view do? | 21:04 |
| alga | erm, afaiu you designed it with mgedmin | 21:04 |
| alga | the view to enter the whole school timetable | 21:05 |
| th1a | The timetable schema? | 21:05 |
| alga | no, the actual timetable | 21:05 |
| alga | computed some other way | 21:05 |
| th1a | What does the actual timetable look like? | 21:06 |
| alga | hm | 21:06 |
| alga | I can't start 0.9 right now | 21:07 |
| th1a | What does one do at this view? | 21:07 |
| alga | but that was a view where the school secretary could import the timetable for each teacher, or each group, in some CSV format | 21:07 |
| th1a | Oh, ok. | 21:07 |
| th1a | Well, we still need a view to allow an individual student's schedule to be entered (which I know is a foreign concept to you Lithuanians). | 21:08 |
| alga | mhm | 21:09 |
| alga | it automatically puts a person into certain groups, right? | 21:09 |
| th1a | Right. | 21:09 |
| th1a | This'll be a little different because we will have the concept of sections and courses in STC 1.0. | 21:10 |
| alga | how do you tell the system when these groups have lessons? | 21:10 |
| alga | what's a section and what's a coursE? | 21:11 |
| th1a | alga: I have to go mail this paper to Italy. bbiab. We need to work this out at length, either in a half hour or tomorrow sometime. | 21:12 |
| alga | ok | 21:12 |
| alga | then I suspend work on the proposal for now | 21:12 |
| th1a | Understood. | 21:14 |
| bska|mobile | alga: a "Course" is something like "First Year Algebra" currently with just a title and description, but eventually with requirements, etc | 21:15 |
| bska|mobile | a "Section" is one meeting group of a "Course" | 21:15 |
| bska|mobile | the Section is a group, with a calendar, memebers (students and teacher(s)) | 21:16 |
| bska|mobile | I haven't figured out where Courses should be stored or how they relate programmatically to Sections | 21:17 |
| bska|mobile | a Course could be a group of sections, but the Course shouldn't really be ICalendarOwner | 21:18 |
| alga | thanks, bska|mobile | 21:23 |
| alga | we lacked a lot of terms like that when we were designing the timetabling engine | 21:23 |
| * bska|mobile pokes th1a | 21:24 | |
| bska|mobile | soon we'll have a whole glossary | 21:24 |
| bska|mobile | ;) | 21:24 |
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| th1a | Yeah, yeah... | 21:53 |
| th1a | alga: Do you want to pick this up now or tomorrow? | 21:54 |
| th1a | Tomorrow, apparently. | 22:07 |
| * bska|mobile notes its 10pm in LT | 22:08 | |
| th1a | I'm not complaining. | 22:08 |
| th1a | Just asking. | 22:09 |
| bska|mobile | ;) | 22:09 |
| * bska|mobile is consumed by time differences | 22:09 | |
| th1a | I guess I went to bed at noon Lithuania time. | 22:10 |
| bska|mobile | heh | 22:11 |
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