IRC log of #schooltool for Wednesday, 2013-07-24

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replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:31
replaceafillsorry i'm late (i'm at the mall)16:31
th1aAre you late?16:31
th1ahi replaceafill, menesis, yvl.16:31
replaceafilli'm not? :)16:31
yvlgood morning16:32
th1aI'm looking right now at an email from Aubrey in South Africa -- she's the person with the mobile app.16:35
th1aI should get you guys caught up with that...16:35
th1aSo they actually have a working prototype.16:36
th1aI'll forward you some screenshots.16:36
th1aHaving a nice Android app UI would be great ofc.16:37
th1aWe're getting a sense of where each side is coming from.16:37
th1aThey have Java developers (as opposed to, say, PHP guys), so helping them get started doing some API work themselves seems like a reasonable idea.16:39
th1aThe next step, essentially.16:39
th1aIf this really gets rolling it would certainly be worth some of our time.16:39
th1aAnyhow, I'll forward the latest email, and expect that we might need some emails and/or a chat explaining essentially the REST branch yvl just made.16:40
th1aThat's what I've got.16:43
yvlnot much happened since yesterday16:44
yvltalking with you actually cleared things up a lot16:44
th1a(with your report?)16:47
yvlyes :)16:47
th1aOK.  We want this to be *close* to finished in a week to fit it in the next release.16:48
th1aIt is by its nature a loose-endy kind of task.16:48
th1aAre we plausibly on track for that?16:49
yvlI'd say yes16:50
yvlvery plausable16:50
th1aOK.  Good.16:50
th1aSo let's aim for that.16:50
yvlfinished - no, but close to finished makes sense16:50
th1aOK.  Thanks yvl.16:51
replaceafillplease bear with me, i kind of feel a delay in the messages appearing here16:52
replaceafillth1a: i have a question for you16:52
replaceafilllast time when we said we were going to revisit the layout view16:53
replaceafillyou said you wanted some journal options hard-wired there16:53
replaceafillcan you give some details on that?16:53
th1aAh, yes.16:54
replaceafillor do you want me to set up something so we can discuss looking at it?16:54
* replaceafill listens16:54
th1aRemind me exactly where you are in your queue?16:55
th1aFinished everything else and back to report card?16:55
replaceafillah yes sorry16:55
replaceafilli finished jelkner's request on images16:56
replaceafillwe're going to meet this afternoon16:56
replaceafilland i'm going to show him that16:56
replaceafillbut i'm pretty much done with it16:56
replaceafilland i'm back to the report card work, on my notes, the next thing was the layout view16:56
replaceafilland i have that comment about the journal options there16:57
th1aOne issue is that we need to probably just have a checkbox to include homeroom ("Day") attendance.16:57
th1ai.e., not per-course.16:58
th1aAnd we have to decide where to put that in the layout.16:58
th1aUnderstand the point?16:59
replaceafillcheckbox below the items maybe?16:59
th1aI'm worried more about the REPORT layout.17:00
th1aI'm sure you can find a place in the form.  ;-)17:00
replaceafillah, you mean where to put it in the pdf17:01
th1aYeah, not quite sure how to lay it out.17:01
replaceafilla new table is all i can think of right now17:02
th1aI guess partly because I kind of want to put it near the top but I don't want it to be that promenent.17:02
th1aIt could just have a subhead and a line of data at the end after the courses.17:03
th1aDays: 90;  Absent/Excused: 3; Absent/Unexcused etc.17:04
replaceafillgot it17:04
th1aTry that.17:04
replaceafillsame format we use for the grades table, right?17:04
replaceafilli mean, style17:05
th1aYeah, but I don't think it needs a table header.17:05
th1aWell, maybe each row is a term?17:05
replaceafilland we show the term title?17:06
replaceafillin the first column?17:06
th1aMakes sense.17:07
replaceafillok, i get it17:07
replaceafilli'll start with something and ping you to see it17:07
th1aOK.  I don't know if we have to update the per-course journal choices in the layout.17:08
th1aI don't think that's changed.17:08
replaceafilli was thinking if you want the excused/unexcused parts there?17:09
replaceafillright now it only has absent (which should be absences btw) and tardies17:09
th1aAh, yes.17:10
replaceafillok, i'll add those17:11
replaceafillthat's all i had17:12
th1aWell, I'm still mulling over attendance...17:12
th1aI guess let's just keep it simple.17:13
replaceafilllet's at least see how it looks17:13
th1aFor each course just have the option of total absences/class meetings.17:13
th1aIt seems like we can only offer a simple option or the choice of a whole row for attendance.17:13
th1aBecause the way it is laid out, it won't work to just add a bunch more attendance data to the row with the grade data.17:14
th1aThis report is groaning under the weight of data...17:15
replaceafillso, the hardcoded tardies/absences move out of the grades part, correct?17:15
th1aMaybe it just needs an attendance row.17:15
replaceafillabove or below the comments?17:15
th1aWell, we're mulling.17:15
th1aI think we should keep this minimal and stick with Vinny's concept.17:18
th1aWhich would mean the option of a single field per course that would be total attendances for the year.17:18
th1aActually, the problem here is that people don't put this much attendance data in a report card.17:19
replaceafilli don't have vinny's pdf at hand, but i remember him just put days_present/days_total, riht?17:20
th1aYeah, but it isn't even that easy for us to calculate days_total.17:20
th1aLet's just keep the option for one field of total absences.17:21
th1aFor the year for the (linked) sections.17:21
th1aAbs: 417:21
th1aIf anyone wants more they can complain.  ;-)17:21
replaceafillso, no excused/unexcused difference then17:22
replaceafilljust absences17:22
th1aThe way this is laid out, there isn't room to start explaining data.17:23
th1aWe can allow more in the grid-oriented version.17:23
replaceafilli'll see some iterations coming, so i'll be bugging you with updates again :)17:24
replaceafilland since i'm in the mall, i'll go look for buying an external monitor ;)17:25
* replaceafill done17:25
menesisI was busy with another project, and have not yet started releasing17:26
th1aOK.  Have you talked to Laurynas about having time for SchoolTool for the next month or so?17:28
menesisyes, I am sharing between two projects17:29
menesishe promised to press me to work on schooltool because deadlines are close17:30
th1aOK, good.17:31
th1aThanks menesis.17:32
th1aThanks guys.17:32
th1aSee you Monday.17:32
th1aHave a good week/end.17:32
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:32
replaceafillthanks everybody17:33
yvlthanks guys17:33
yvlsee you Mon17:33
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jelknerpgulley, to speed things up, i'll go and paste the agenda items now...21:54
jelkner1. Teacher updated scores should not be overwritten by machine generated ones.21:55
jelkner2. Gradebook worksheet improvement - who does it and when?21:56
jelkner3. Rolling out the students can request individual practice feature.21:56
jelkner4. Chrome js bug preventing skills associations to quiz items.21:57
jelkner5.  Work flow for evaluating students who take a quiz long after the21:57
jelknerrest of the group.21:57
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replaceafillgood afternoon jelkner pgulley21:58
pgulleyafternoon replaceafill!21:58
jelkner6. Loading new skills sets brakes all previous skills associations.21:58
jelknerGood afternoon replaceafill!21:58
jelknerI just pasted the agenda, to help me focus.21:58
jelknerThe first 5 items were loaded before you joined21:59
jelknercan you see them?21:59
jelkneror should i paste them again?21:59
replaceafillhhmm no, let me get the logs21:59
jelkner1. Teacher updated scores should not be overwritten by machine generated ones.21:59
jelkner 2. Gradebook worksheet improvement - who does it and when?21:59
jelkner 3. Rolling out the students can request individual practice feature.21:59
jelkner 4. Chrome js bug preventing skills associations to quiz items.21:59
jelkner 5.  Work flow for evaluating students who take a quiz long after the21:59
jelkner rest of the group.21:59
jelkner 6. Loading new skills sets brakes all previous skills associations.21:59
replaceafillok, thanks :)21:59
jelknerwe should aim to keep this short22:00
jelkner(there is work to be done! ;-)22:00
replaceafillah ok, sure22:00
jelknerbut we need to figure out how to prioritize22:00
jelknerquick question on 4.22:00
jelkneris that something pgulley should just do?22:00
jelknersince it is the only thing that makes this not usable from chrome22:01
replaceafillno, that one is done22:01
replaceafilli just need to look for that branch22:01
jelknercause it was still there a few minutes ago22:01
jelknerwhen i tried it22:01
replaceafilli mean, i have to deploy it in your instance22:01
replaceafilland commit the fix to trunk22:01
replaceafillbut 4 is done22:02
jelknerok how about we talk about 122:02
jelkneri need that next22:02
jelknerand pgulley wants to run something by you.22:02
pgulleyreplaceafill, we had spoken about this one, I just wasn't sure22:02
pgulleyIt would be as simple as setting the evaluator on auto-updated evaluations to "None", or some such22:03
replaceafillwhat about using the last evaluator to compare?22:03
replaceafillif the last evaluator is not None, the feature skips that cell22:03
pgulleythat's what I thought22:03
pgulleyI was just uneasy about setting that to None-22:03
pgulleyI've had nightmares about the bugs it could cause22:04
replaceafillwell, it is right now22:04
pgulleyCurrently, the logged in user is set as the evaluator when 'update skills' is run.22:04
pgulleyunless that's changed?22:04
pgulleyregardless, it's a simple thing to fix, if you don't think it would break things.22:04
replaceafillwhat happens when a student answers a quiz deployed to a section?22:05
replaceafillhave you seen the evaluator then22:05
replaceafilli mean, in the answered evaluation22:05
replaceafillit's set to None iirc22:05
pgulleyyes, that part is true.22:05
pgulleybut the evaluation we'd be checking isn't the answered evaluation, it's the evaluation containing the skill data22:06
replaceafillimho it's the same thing22:07
replaceafilland gradebook history supports that22:07
replaceafilli'd say is the fastest route to that22:07
replaceafilland a good/strong test for that would allow refactoring later22:08
replaceafillif any issue comes up22:08
pgulleyokay, perfect. That's that.22:08
jelknernext issue...22:08
replaceafilljelkner, can you describe what the improvement means?22:09
jelkner 6. Loading new skills sets brakes all previous skills associations.22:09
replaceafilloh sorry22:09
replaceafillnever mind22:09
jelknerwhich improvement?22:09
replaceafillnever mind22:09
replaceafilli thought we were going to 2.22:09
jelkneri'm not sure what order to take these in22:09
jelknerand some of them are related22:09
jelknerlet me back up a minute...22:10
jelknerwhen we started this Summer's work, we said the "big story" was student initiated practice.22:10
jelknerwhile i would still love to see that at some point, i'm realizing there are even more pressing matters that may have to be resolved first.22:11
jelknerthe success of our effort depends on expanding the pilot next year.22:11
replaceafilli understand22:11
jelknerso i've been talking to my colleagues a lot about what they need to use ST as their SIS.22:11
jelknerthat's where the gradebook story comes from22:12
jelknerSean mentioned it to me on Monday when I met with him.22:12
jelknerWe are using worksheets to separate quizzes from homework from projects, etc.22:12
jelknerWe need a more powerful summary sheet22:12
jelknerthat allow us to produce a final grade from weighted worksheets22:13
replaceafillbut if i understand your request correctly, weightable worksheets are not enough?22:13
jelknerwe need that by Fall.22:13
jelknerweightable worksheets are enough22:13
jelknerbut we don't have them, right?22:13
jelknerso that's the issue22:13
jelknerwe need them by september22:14
replaceafilli started on that story though22:14
replaceafilli even remember showing it in a devs meeting22:14
jelknerso maybe we don't need to discuss it here22:14
jelkneri'm only asking because sean brought it up22:14
replaceafillbut from your google doc, i understood differently22:14
jelknerand it is very important to him22:14
jelkner(me too)22:14
jelknerdifferently how?22:14
replaceafilli understood you wanted to produce a final grade based on "a rule"22:15
replaceafilli focused on the "rule" part i guess22:15
jelknerahh yes22:16
replaceafillthat meant custom scoresystem in my head22:16
jelknerthat's because of this use case:  i have quizzes that get a percent22:16
jelknerand projects that get 4, 3, 2, 1, 022:16
jelknerA, B, C, D, E22:16
jelknerso yes, that's an issue22:17
jelknerlet's say tests and quizzes are 50 percent22:17
jelknerand you have a combined "average" of 75 percent22:17
jelknerthat's a C22:17
jelknerbut if you also have a "C" on projects22:18
jelkneryour "average" will be 5022:18
jelknera 222:18
jelknerof 422:18
jelknerwe want a C to be the result22:18
jelknernot a  D22:18
jelknerAnyway, that is less important22:19
jelknerlet's move on22:19
jelkneri'll talk to you more about this later22:19
replaceafilli still *think* a custom score system will solve it22:19
jelknerit will22:19
replaceafillbut i'd have to try it and see22:19
jelkneri'll be more than willing to help you think that through22:19
jelknerok, now the biggest issue...22:20
jelknerevaluations are not "sticky"22:20
jelkneri mean skills22:20
replaceafillyou mean, when you "reload" they're gone?22:20
replaceafillthat's correct22:20
jelknerthis is even more important to solve this summer than student initiated quizzes22:20
jelkneri've already had the unpleasant experience this summer of having to reassociate my quiz items with skills on several occassions22:21
replaceafilli know what you mean22:21
replaceafilland unfortunately, i can't explain the how, not the why :(22:22
jelkneri'm glad now for this unpleasantness, since it helped me focus on the even bigger problem22:22
jelknerthe power of what we are building is in the data22:22
replaceafilli got used to the 2011 way of assigning skills22:22
replaceafillbut it's not like that anymore22:22
jelknera good geometry skills list combined with a rich set of assessment items linked to those skills.22:22
jelknerwe need to somehow "package" that22:23
jelkneri can't have to reassociate the items with the skills each time22:23
replaceafillbut that's basically what happens to your section22:23
jelknerin fact, i need to be able to distribute this work to my colleagues pre-packaged22:23
replaceafillquiz is just following that model22:23
replaceafilli mean, cando is the one resetting the skill22:24
jelknerwell, i'm saying i can't think of anything more important than fixing that somehow22:24
jelknereven if it means we put off student initiated quizzes for another year22:24
jelkneragain, i'm thinking of the pilot22:24
jelkneri go to the arlington mill teachers next year22:24
replaceafilli think you'll need to address th1a on this one22:24
pgulleyjelkner, with all due respect, I'm not sure this problem is really within my scope22:25
pgulleyreplaceafill- when you export quiz items, are skills saved in the exported file?22:27
replaceafillpgulley, no22:27
pgulleycould they be?22:28
replaceafillthat feature was developed way before we attach skills22:28
pgulleyright right, yes.22:28
pgulleyBecause there could be some shuffling around22:28
pgulleythat could preserve those things?22:28
pgulleyI feel like I'm grasping at straws.22:29
replaceafillthe problem with import/export is that assumes you're starting fresh in the *other* system22:29
replaceafillthe original intent of import/export (quiz side) was just to take items from one instance to another22:30
replaceafillto recreate the quiz22:30
replaceafillthings have changed lately22:30
replaceafillwe have skills and images22:30
pgulleySo, what's to be done?22:32
pgulleyif we change the import/export feature to include skills (and images?)22:32
replaceafillthe problem is that you can't assume anything from the other instance22:32
pgulleythen include a failsafe-22:33
replaceafillunless you are willing to say "sorry, i can't import this because you don't have this skill set"22:33
replaceafillor "you need this skill set for this quiz items to work"22:33
replaceafilland how do you identify the skill set?22:33
replaceafillby label22:33
replaceafillby title22:33
replaceafillby id?22:33
replaceafillwhat if it doesn't exist?22:34
replaceafillhow does the user in the second instance knows what exact skill set to import22:34
pgulleyperhaps, set the quizitem's skill to None by default?22:34
replaceafillsee my point?22:35
pgulleyI understand completely the issues here.22:35
pgulleyit's a rats nest.22:35
jelknera steaming pile of dung!22:35
pgulleybut at the same time- something needs to give, no?22:35
replaceafilli mean, it's possible, this is software :)22:35
jelknerbut wade into it we must22:35
replaceafillbut it wouldn't be 100% reliable22:36
jelknerwell, i'm in favor of the unix philosophy here22:36
jelknerif it works for 90% of the cases and its simple enough, let's do it22:36
replaceafilli'd vote for checking ids22:36
jelknerbecause honestly, without skills associted, quiz items don't have much use in this system22:37
replaceafillif the stuff the importer needs doesn't exist, it fails22:37
replaceafillthen the user in the second instance can ask the original user "what do i need to import"22:37
pgulleyIt sort of raises the question of managing imports22:37
replaceafilland jelkner helps the second instance user ;)22:37
jelkneri'll be here next year to do just that ;-)22:38
replaceafillok, skill sets have ids22:38
replaceafillskillsets contain skills22:38
replaceafillskills have ids (or at least __name__s)22:38
jelknerthis is sounding good22:38
replaceafillpgulley, could put that logic in place imho?22:38
jelknerit means later we can evolve skills sets22:39
pgulleyyes- it should be simple.22:39
jelknerbut doing some transformation22:39
pgulley(not touching images, I presume...)22:39
pgulleySo when new skill sets are loaded into the system22:39
replaceafillimages could use the same logic22:39
replaceafillthere's now a link between an image object22:40
replaceafilland a quiz item22:40
pgulleywe export those quizzes, then import the new skills, then reimport the old quizitems (with skill associations still intact).22:40
replaceafillyes, something along those lines22:41
pgulleythen deployed quizzes and answered evaluations also keep those associations?22:42
replaceafillanswered evaluations?!?!22:43
replaceafillwait, we're not exporting grades, right?22:43
pgulleyno no no22:43
pgulleyno no22:43
pgulleyI was speaking before thinking22:44
pgulleythat connection is entierly in code, not in data22:44
jelknergentleman, am i dismissed?22:45
replaceafilljelkner, so, what's the plan? :)22:46
replaceafill1 is decided22:46
replaceafill2. not so much22:46
jelknerthe plan is that the ability to save all the work teacher's do creating these resources trumps all other concerns22:46
replaceafill3 is deferred i think22:47
replaceafill4. i need to deploy that22:47
jelknerso we don't need to talk about student initiated assessments or the other work flow issues until such time as we address this more important story22:47
replaceafill5 we didn't discuss22:47
jelkner5 and 3 are related22:47
jelknerso we defer that too22:47
pgulleywell, sort of22:47
pgulleybut it can still be deferred22:47
replaceafillso i think pgulley should start asap on 1.22:48
pgulleyI'll jump into that stinking pile of dung tomorrow morning22:48
jelknerthanks, gentleman22:48
replaceafillthanks jelkner pgulley22:49
jelknerlet's check in again next week22:49
pgulleythanks, all.22:49
replaceafillpgulley, let me know if you need anything from me22:49
jelknerto see how this shit unfolds22:49
pgulleyreplaceafill, oh don't worry. I will.22:49
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replaceafillpgulley, it's not entirely clear in my head either, so... :)22:49
pgulleyhaha, we'll see how it goes.22:50
replaceafillsee you pgulley22:50
pgulleylikewise, have a good evening!22:51
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