IRC log of #schooltool for Tuesday, 2012-07-31

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aelknerreplaceafill, hey16:51
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replaceafillhey aelkner16:52
aelkneri added the external activity stuff to cando, but i need your watchful eye16:53
aelknerfor the total, i kept the numcomps * 3 logic from the old cando16:53
aelknerfor the percent complete, i just used the number of required comps16:54
aelkneri haven't merged with trunk yet as i expect that i will need to make some changes16:54
aelknerbut i did load it into my demo instance, as manager:16:54
replaceafillyou didn't add ext act for the skills gradebook?16:54
aelknerwhat's that?16:55
aelkneri thought we wanted two activities, one for total, one for percent complete16:55
replaceafillyes, but these are for projects, right?16:55
replaceafilli'm asking about the skills gradebook16:55
replaceafillhe's already able to grade a single student at once16:56
replaceafill(what he wanted yesterday)16:56
replaceafillso he doesn't have to use projects for that anymore16:56
replaceafillbut those should be easy to add anyway16:57
aelknersince we never did anything lke that in the old cando, i'm not sure how that would work16:57
aelknerthe idea always was, adapt the skilldriver to an external activity16:57
replaceafillmaybe i got confused but i think th1a requested 4 ext acts yesterday16:58
replaceafill2 for skills gradebook and 2 for projects16:58
replaceafilli got confused then ;)16:58
replaceafilli just thought we were going to have ext acts for the skills gradebook16:59
replaceafillso you could insert the total or average of the "course" skills16:59
aelknerhow would that look in the add activity form, could you guys call that up please?16:59
replaceafillwithout creating a project16:59
th1aWho am I logging in as?17:00
aelkneri just use that user to make it easier for me to not have to keep logging in and out17:00
th1aI get ForbiddenAttribute: ('description', Project(u'Project1')) when I try to do that, btw.17:00
replaceafillth1a, you need to add /gradebook to the URL17:01
aelknerjust log in and try again17:01
replaceafillit's a bad redirect17:01
th1aI'm just saying...17:01
replaceafillwhenever you want to send people to a gradebook, use:17:01
th1aWell, yes, but it is a bug.17:01
aelkneryes, agreed, the redirect is a bug17:02
th1aWhat do you want me to do, aelkner?17:02
replaceafilli agree17:02
aelknerso go add an activity and look at the form17:02
aelknerbtw, the points at the bottom are confusing for percent complete17:02
replaceafillshouldn't we be in the regular gradebook for that?17:02
aelknerok, th1a, true, you can hit the Gradebook tab at the top17:03
aelknerthen do the ad activity17:03
th1aIt should be % passing, not % complete.17:04
aelknerok, and the logic i used is to devde the number passing by the number of required comps, scored o not17:05
aelkneris that the right logic?17:05
th1aIf there were skills assigned to the course or section they'd have separate entries.17:05
th1aIt sounds like you did the calculation right but are describing something different.17:06
th1aThis is based on the passing score in the score system, right?17:06
aelkneri'll change the title as you suggested17:06
aelknerwhat about the numcomps * 3 logic for the total that i brought over from old cando17:07
aelkneri don't why multiply by 3 before deviding the total, but that's what it was in the old code17:07
aelknerreplaceafill, you had a reason, i'm sure, i just don't know what it was17:07
replaceafillhe requested it that way17:08
aelknerthat's a person, not a reason :)17:08
replaceafilli hit Enter before finishing :D17:08
jelknerall i need now is a total17:08
aelknerth1a, for the total, we add up the scores and devide by number of scored comps * 317:09
jelkneraelkner, no, just add em up17:09
aelknerth1a, you have my permission to tell my brother where to get off :)17:09
aelknerbut seriously, i'll do whatever you guys negotiate17:10
replaceafilli still think we need 2 of these (ext act) for the course skills17:10
jelkneraelkner, read the august 2nd entry17:10
replaceafillor jelkner will have to recreate projects for all his sections17:10
th1aI don't see any reason to divide by 3.17:10
jelkneri don't mind creating a single project17:10
jelknerthat is all the comps17:11
jelknerit is too late in the game this summer to change the practice17:11
jelkneri would happily create a single project with all comps17:11
jelkneras long as the total points (raw) can be displayed17:11
aelknerjelkner, what do you envision putting in the points field when you add the activity?17:12
aelknerthat field, if you remember, allows you to scale the result as you wish17:12
jelkneri could put the total number of points possible17:12
jelknerbut the most important thing is that students (and me) have an easy way to see how close they are to getting the score they want17:12
jelknerit's the merit badge concept dwelsh often talks about17:13
jelknerhere are the skills17:13
jelkneryou need this many points to be an eagle scout17:13
jelknergo get em17:13
jelknerbut it doesn't work if you can't get feedback from the system on your progress17:14
th1aOh, wait.17:14
th1aThis isn't going to work at all, is it?17:14
th1aDoesn't the external activity just pass a % ?17:14
aelknerth1a, depends on how we code it17:14
jelknerth1a pounds the white board... "We're f...d!"17:14
aelkneri carried over the old cando for the total one, that does a percentage17:14
th1aWell, yes, it is software, so it could do anything.17:15
aelknerbut we could change it to just add up the total17:15
th1aBut simply passing an integer isn't useful to the gradebook.17:15
aelknerstill, though, the points field applies a percentage17:15
aelknerso putting 100 in there will make the result come out as the true total17:15
jelkneraelkner, sweet17:15
aelkneranything else will scale it17:16
th1aWhat if it passed a % of total possible points?17:17
jelknergentleman, i need to get back to teaching, but i think my story is clear, yes?17:17
jelkneri need total points17:18
aelknerand you will put 100 in the points field, right jelkner?17:18
jelknerif you tell me17:18
aelknerand you'll use projects?17:18
jelkneri'll do whatever you tell me17:18
th1aWell, I'm a lot more dubious about it at this point.17:19
th1aWe'll think about it.17:19
jelknerth1a, i'm in trouble here17:19
replaceafillth1a, because of the percentage part?17:19
jelknerthe program is almost over17:19
jelknerand students need to see their scores17:19
jelkneri can't wait till next week for that17:19
th1aWe'll hack something together.17:20
jelknerjust get me through august 10th17:20
th1aDo you know the total number of possible points?17:20
th1aIs that not going to change?17:20
jelknerand we can do it the right way by august 27th17:20
jelknerit varies from course to course17:20
th1aI'd say this:17:20
jelknerso does the number of points you need for A, B, C17:20
th1a* jelkner needs to add up the total number of possible points per course.17:21
* jelkner can do that17:21
th1a* jelkner needs to assign each activity the right number of points (same as above)17:21
* jelkner can do that too ;-)17:21
th1a* aelkner needs to pass a % of the total possible points.17:21
th1aIt'll come out right.17:21
th1aIn the future we might make the first two steps optionally automatic.17:22
replaceafillcan i have everybody's attention for a minute?17:22
aelkneri'm all ears :)17:22
replaceafillthe way the projects gradebook work right now, is that if you select a skill to add, it will "copy" the skill into the project17:23
replaceafillso, if jelkner creates projects for his courses, he will be creating "new" skills17:23
replaceafillwith no scores!17:24
replaceafillhe already graded the students17:24
replaceafillif he uses projects now, he will need to grade again17:24
th1aNot for the project.17:24
th1aWhy are we talking about projects?17:24
replaceafillbecause these ext acts work *on* projects17:25
aelknerth1a, did you go to the add activity form?17:25
aelknerit says Project 1 total points17:25
aelknerProject 1 percent complete17:25
aelknerwhich i will be changing to percent passing17:25
replaceafillmy point is that we need to extra acts for "course" skills17:25
replaceafillsorry, two*17:26
replaceafillthat does exactly the same, but taking into account all skillsets in the *skills* gradebook17:26
replaceafillat some point, i started to think i was crazy ;)17:26
aelknerso instead of looping over the skills of a project, a single worksheet17:27
aelknerit will loop over every worksheet in the section's gradebook17:27
aelknercando gradebook, that is17:27
aelknerwhat should the title of the two sources in the drop-down be17:27
aelkner{course title} total points17:28
aelkner" percent passing?17:28
replaceafill"skills gradebook total points"?17:28
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th1aIn all cases it should be % of total points17:29
th1aI'd use the course title.17:29
aelknerthe calculation not is total points divided by (num scored comps * 3)17:30
aelknershould that change to (num comps, period)17:30
aelknerscored or not, no times 317:30
aelknersorry, i meant to say 'the calculation is now...'17:31
aelkneras in that's what i got from the old cando thinking it was relevant17:31
aelkneri can change it, ofc17:31
th1aDoes *3 sound like logical math?17:32
th1aOr some arbitrary VA bullshit?17:33
replaceafillsee 3.17:33
replaceafillit's jelkner's original idea17:33
replaceafilli think 3 is the minimum passing score, iirc17:34
th1aI think he's really going for a modified passing rate score there.17:34
aelknerit is17:34
th1aAnyhow, we're not doing it.17:35
aelknerwe'll divide total score by total num comps, scored or not, right?17:35
aelknerrequired or not?17:36
* th1a sighs.17:37
th1aWhich score are you referring to aelkner?17:37
aelknersorry, by score i mean the thing the user puts in the cando gradebook17:37
aelknerin old cando, a unscored cell was ignored17:38
aelkneri was asking if we should compute the percentage based on all comps, not just scored ones17:38
th1aNo, I mean, we're talking about % of total points?17:38
th1aThe % of total points is % of total points.17:38
th1aIt has to be all of them or it won't work the way jelkner wants.17:39
aelknerrequired or not, right?17:39
aelknerok, that's answers my question17:39
aelknerth1a, replaceafill, i only have a couple of hours to work on this, but i think i can make these changes17:40
aelkneri will merge into trunk before leaving so that replaceafill can make any changes while i'm gone17:40
th1aOK.  Thanks.17:40
aelknerreplaceafill, what's the best way to get from section to skills gradebook?17:52
aelkneri see that the adapter adpats ICourseSkillset17:52
aelknerso skills = ISectionSkills(section and gradebook = ISkillsGradebook(skills)?17:53
replaceafillah no17:53
replaceafillhold on, i'm not sure on the gradebook one17:53
replaceafillthe gradebook one is for skillsets iirc17:54
replaceafillfor icourseskillset17:54
replaceafillisectionskills is the equivalent to iactivities17:54
replaceafillgradebooks act on worksheets17:55
replaceafillgradebook = ISkillsGradebook(skills_worksheet)17:55
aelknerskillsets = ISectionSkills(section)17:55
aelknerfor skillset in skillsets:17:55
aelkner    gradebook = ISkillsGradebook(skillset)17:55
replaceafillfor skill in skillsets.values():17:56
replaceafilljust remember skillsets.values():17:56
replaceafillit's a container17:56
replaceafillbut yes, that's the approach17:56
aelknerso the external activities adapter that now looks for adapters of project to external activity17:57
aelknershould now have a block of code that adapts section to external activity?17:57
aelkneri'm just wondering how you would prefer i register these17:57
aelkneri'll just be adding two more than the ones i already have17:58
replaceafillno strong opinion here17:58
replaceafilli don't hink we need to register by course skillset17:58
aelkneri'll use section since that is the context of the ecternal activities adapter17:58
replaceafillregistering for the whole section is fine with me17:58
replaceafillth1a, i didn't show you yesterday:18:09
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replaceafillselect a student -> Score18:10
th1aI'd not put a save at the top.18:11
th1aLooks wierd.18:11
replaceafillah ok18:12
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replaceafilli just thought that the list could become really long18:12
th1aAnd can we style it to look a bit more gradebooky and less table-y?18:12
replaceafilli tried, but the font size of the gradebook made reading the skills really hard18:13
replaceafilli think jelkner is probably right about "Cancel"18:14
replaceafillmaybe it should be labeled "Done"18:14
replaceafillor we could make the "Save" action to redirect to the section gradebook18:14
replaceafilli was thinking the scr will look exactly like this18:15
th1aPretty much.18:15
replaceafillwill work on that next so i can show it to dwelsh/glenda today18:15
th1aI'd say the "Save" should take you back to the gradebook and we should have some kind of "Save and Next"18:16
th1aOr whatever.18:16
th1aSave and...18:16
th1aI can't remember what language we use.18:16
replaceafillfor going to the next student?18:16
th1aBut there needs to be a cancel.18:16
th1aNext student.18:16
th1aSave and next.18:16
replaceafillgradebook has:18:17
replaceafillSubmit | Next  | Cancel18:17
replaceafillso for cando will be:18:17
replaceafillSave | Save and next | Next student | Cancel18:18
th1aIt should be consistent.18:20
th1aI like Submit | Next | Cancel18:20
replaceafilli remember... let me see18:20
replaceafillah yes18:20
replaceafillif you're in the middle of the list, you get:18:20
th1aMaybe Submit | Submit and Next | Cancel18:21
replaceafillSubmit | Previous | Next | Cancel18:21
th1aOr that.18:21
th1aThat's fine.18:21
replaceafillwe could add Previous | Next buttons for the scr :)18:28
replaceafillthe scr only makes sense in the skills gradebook context, right?18:53
replaceafillnah, it doesn't hurt having it in the projects gradebook :)18:53
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dreichreplaceafill, aelkner, could either of you give me and pgulley schooltool.cando 101?19:26
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replaceafilldreich, i can't today19:30
replaceafillwhat do you need to know?19:31
dreichbasically how the objects work and how we'd go about editing them from an xmlrpc function19:33
dreich(sorry, I know it's a lot to explain)19:33
th1aWhat are you trying to do from the user's point of view?19:33
dreichas of now, just get a list of possible competencies, but then also update users information about them19:39
dreichfirst the list, though19:39
th1aSo... you don't really need to edit them?19:39
pgulleythat depends...19:40
dreichI don't think so19:40
dreichbut i'm not sure exactly what youcha wants19:40
pgulleyif user values for specific competencies are stored in the user objects, then no19:41
pgulleyI don't think we need to be creating competencies, but we definitely need to update them. and if they're stored the other around then we will be editing them.19:41
th1aThis is from pyquiz?19:41
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th1aHow is this different than what jelkner needs?19:43
dreichit's pretty much the same thing, just that youcha is the higher-priority client right now19:45
th1aWith a clear specification the actual implementation should be easy.19:47
replaceafillimho, it would be faster if you come up with some api requirements for the services you need19:47
replaceafilli code them19:47
replaceafilland then explain to you how they work19:47
th1aYeah.  That is no problem.19:47
replaceafillas we did with the gradebook19:47
replaceafill(without the explanation part) :D19:47
th1aYou really don't want CanDo 101.19:48
dreichah, ok!19:49
pgulleycool, that works.19:49
dreichthanks a lot19:49
pgulleyso, we need two things:19:50
pgulleyWe need to be able to get a list of competencies19:50
dreich(ids and names)19:50
pgulleyand then we need to be able to mark a student as competent.19:50
pgulley(or otherwise update their competency)19:51
replaceafillkind of similar to the current gradebook xmlrpc methods, correct?19:52
replaceafilli mean, you need to grade the student in that skill19:52
replaceafillin that section19:52
replaceafillin that term, etc etc :)19:53
dreichyes, exactly19:53
replaceafillwhen do you need these?19:54
replaceafillcould you start with a mock in your views?19:54
replaceafill(same way we do in tests)19:54
dreichyeah, we definitely could, but soon would still be nice19:54
dreichwe'll use that for now though19:54
replaceafillonce you have mocks, please point me to those19:55
replaceafillso i can see how you will use the actual xmlrpc method19:55
replaceafillbut i think i get your idea19:55
replaceafillth1a,, teacher19:56
th1aI hate eunita19:56
replaceafillth1a, do you think we should make the content area to expand19:56
dreichreplaceafill, will do19:57
replaceafilldreich, kk19:57
th1aOh, that's another login bug.19:57
th1a(by the way)19:57
* replaceafill blames our traversers19:58
th1aWell, I'm just saying...19:58
th1aLet's not deploy with them.19:58
replaceafilladding that to the TODO file19:58
th1aThere should be a separate column for label.19:58
replaceafillah ok19:59
replaceafillalso, the old report19:59
replaceafillhad the skill flag in its own column19:59
replaceafilli used color codes instead19:59
th1aYou want the date on one line.  Take out the time.19:59
th1aYou could have the required flag, yes.20:00
replaceafillor we could set css widths for the columns20:00
replaceafillah ok20:00
replaceafillthe old scr was:20:00
replaceafilllabel | flag | title | date | rating20:00
replaceafillalso, the old scr had the rating scale at the top20:01
replaceafilli think we could use the Help group in the sidebar20:02
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th1aUse the sidebar.20:03
replaceafillthe pdf option could go there too20:04
replaceafillonce we have it ;)20:04
th1aUnder reports.20:04
replaceafillth1a, reload20:22
replaceafillreload again :)20:24
replaceafilli think the hover on the rows help20:24
th1aJust make Required a bool.20:25
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th1aWe don't need the whole word in there.20:26
th1aCheck mark is ok.20:26
replaceafillah ok20:26
replaceafilland we put "Required" in the header, right?20:26
aelknerth1a, replaceafill, i pushed the changes to trunk20:27
aelkneryou may want to fine tune something with the calculation after working with jelkner20:27
replaceafillaelkner, kk20:28
replaceafillwill update his instance20:28
aelkneri saw a not about the skills import20:28
th1areplaceafill:  Yes.20:28
aelkneris that going to need a change in
replaceafillif i understood correctly we need to send Lee get_verso.py20:29
replaceafillwith the ability to download and create the xls at once20:30
aelkneryes, we need a command line option for doing all or doing just the download or just using the pickel file20:30
aelknercan this wait until next week?20:30
aelkneri'll be at the monday meeting and will be able to get things done that week20:31
aelknerth1a, if you can hold them off at the upcoming meeting on this, i can get to it first thing monday20:31
aelkneractually, i'll be back able to do stuff this saturday, perhaps that would be a good task20:32
th1aIs there some reason we can't just send him
replaceafilli've never tried from scratch, but i think it could work20:34
replaceafilli've always used it with a cached copy of the pickle20:34
aelknerit's always been a hack with no command line, however, adding one is not a big problam20:35
aelkneri wouldn't, however, send it to Lee as is20:35
aelknerreplaceafill, if you look at it, i wrote code to process the pickel and then call sys.exit20:36
replaceafilli know aelkner20:36
aelknerso you see waht i'm saying about the command line, right?20:37
replaceafilli think we just need a version that works from scratch and generates the xls20:37
replaceafillno command line needed imho20:37
replaceafilljust 'python'20:37
replaceafilland spits verso_skills.xls20:38
aelknerhow about it has a command line for us, but by default, it does all20:38
aelknerso what you said would do all, but adding --no_download would skip that20:39
th1aOK, I'll stall them...20:39
aelknerso i'll do that saturday?  that would allow replaceafill to do other things20:39
replaceafilljelkner's instance updated btw20:40
aelknerth1a, i'll take that as a yes, you dd say you'd stall them, just wanted to confirm20:40
aelkneranyway, i'm not going to bother coming to today's meeting20:40
aelknergotta beat the rush hour20:41
replaceafillhave fun aelkner  :)20:41
aelknerthanks guys, i'll see you at the monday meeting20:41
replaceafillth1a, reload20:42
replaceafilli don't like the checkmarks :(20:42
replaceafillcheckmarks + color coding is redundant, right?20:42
th1aOh, yes, I didn't see that.20:43
replaceafillmaybe i should remove the colors20:43
th1aOne or the other.20:43
th1aI kind of prefer the checkboxes of the two.20:43
replaceafillwe can ask them?20:43
replaceafilli prefer the colors :D20:44
replaceafillmake more sense if we put the Help dialog ;)20:44
replaceafillputting it...20:44
replaceafillreload, help options available now20:49
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th1aWe can ask.20:56
th1aI'm still not entirely sold on the blue.20:57
th1aMaybe it should be yellow.20:57
* replaceafill goes to update the demo instance20:59
replaceafillth1a, do you think we should give users a way to update the rating words in that view?21:58
replaceafillit shouldn't be hard i think21:58
replaceafilljust some JS21:58
th1aIt is part of the score system, right?21:58
replaceafillbut it's hardcoded21:58
th1aWell, it can't be for long anyhow.21:58
th1aSo... no.21:59
replaceafilli always think wrong about these things :D21:59
th1aMakes me feel useful.21:59
th1aBasically we want to go away from these one giant complex reports by using a lot more filtering.  I think Glenda and I are on the same page on that.22:06
replaceafillglad to know :)22:06
th1aIt's pretty obvious once you think about it a bit.22:07
th1aThose reports are pretty horrible.22:07
th1aIn several different ways.  ;-)22:07
replaceafilli'm also glad that i finally understood the whole cluster-course thing :D22:07
th1aPain in the ass.22:07
th1aAlso, Dave always takes me marching in the wrong direction with his implementation ideas.22:07
replaceafillfelt the heat going up a little there :D22:08
replaceafillok, va section report next22:08
replaceafillgoing into the virginia package22:08
replaceafillah, and will clean the validation of the Score student view22:09
* replaceafill goes to get lunch22:12
* replaceafill back22:33
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