IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2012-07-30

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th1aaelkner: ayt?03:05
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th1ahi replaceafill, aelkner, yvl, jelkner.16:33
th1aYou can start, jelkner.16:33
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:33
yvlgood morning16:33
jelknergood morning!16:34
th1aOr maybe jelkner is not ready.16:34
jelkneri am16:34
jelknersorry, a student had a question16:35
th1aOK, go ahead jelkner.16:35
jelkneri sent a few emails last night16:35
jelknerbasically, i wanted to figure if those two features could be used by me this summer16:35
jelkner1. students and teachers can see the total "skills points" earned in a section16:36
jelkner2. teacher can enter all section skills for a student16:36
jelkneri asked if 2 could be accomplished using a project that had all the skills in it16:37
jelknerthat's all i have16:37
replaceafilljelkner, projects "duplicate" skills16:37
th1aBy "this summer" do you mean "this week?"16:37
replaceafillif you have skillA in a skillset16:37
jelkneri do16:37
replaceafilland you add it to a project, it won't be the same skill you see in the "Skills" gradebook16:38
jelknerwow, that's new, right?16:38
jelknerso let me ask this16:38
replaceafilli'm working on it :)16:38
th1awell, that's not exactly the intent.16:38
jelknerwhat if i created a project that had all skills in it16:39
jelknerand made it an external activity to the gradebook16:39
jelknerthen i could get both 1 and 216:39
jelknersince i could update it each day16:39
jelknerand students could see their earned points16:39
th1aFirst off, I don't see a good reason why the view to evaluate a student shouldn't just have all skills for the section.16:39
jelknerme either!16:39
th1aWell, I think we'll do it that way.16:40
th1aShouldn't really be a problem right replaceafill?16:40
jelkner+2 (is there such a thing? ;-)16:40
replaceafillth1a, no16:40
th1aOK.  Do that.16:40
replaceafillth1a, i can add that today16:40
replaceafillshould i replace the current "Score" option with it?16:41
jelknerok, what about 1?16:41
th1aDid you work on the new look for that replaceafill?16:41
th1aThe gradebook-y view?16:41
replaceafillfor students?16:41
replaceafillbut it's again, worksheet-based16:41
replaceafilland it doesn't show "an average"16:41
jelkneri don't need an average16:42
replaceafillthat i think it's what jelkner wants16:42
jelkneri need a total16:42
replaceafilloh sorry, a total :)16:42
jelknerlet me be clear16:42
jelknergive me a minute to paste a web page16:42
jelknerlook at the entry for tuesday, aug 2 from last year16:43
jelkneri will be giving students a scale like this for each of the three classes16:44
jelknerthe numbers will be different16:44
th1aWell, computers are good at adding.16:44
jelknerbut all they need is the number of cumulative skills points16:44
jelknerand the letter grade associated with it16:44
replaceafillth1a, maybe we could add the total to each worksheet in the current student view?16:44
th1aI would note that this is highly ideosyncratic.16:44
jelknerth1a, not if you are really doing skills based evaluation16:45
th1aWhere do you want to see this jelkner?16:45
jelkneranywhere you want to put it16:45
jelknerprovided it is not to hard to find and is updated16:45
jelkneri understand this is not how cando will normally be used16:46
jelknerbut the point total is something i think will be useful to others16:46
th1aYou would be ok putting it in the regular gradebook?16:46
jelknerthat's what i was suggesting16:46
jelknerin fact16:46
th1aaelkner, ayt?16:46
jelknerthat would be the least idosyncratic16:46
th1aMaybe you can work on this.16:47
th1aWe'll come back to it.16:47
jelknersince i'd be defining my use case in terms of the more generally applicable project16:47
th1aAnything else jelkner?16:47
jelknerthat's all i need to get through the summer16:47
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jelknerthanks for your time, gentleman16:48
th1aOK, let's go to aelkner next then.16:48
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aelkneryes, while we're talking student grading16:50
aelkneri managed to fire up an old cando instance and load a sample set of skills16:50
aelkneri noted that we have two student, section grade views16:50
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aelknerone is for updating the evaluations of a student, which is what jelkner was talking about16:51
aelknerthe other is a pdf called the SCR which has the same set of data, only presented as a pdf16:51
aelknerboth of them have all the skills for the section, grouped by competency group16:52
aelknerso that is what they would want in the new cando16:52
aelknerthe one for scoring has a table at the top16:52
aelknera head table with cells that show % rated, completed, etc.16:53
aelknerthe pdf has none of those, but just a long paragragh explaining the purpose of the SCR16:53
aelknerincluding an explanation of the rating scale16:53
aelknerso are we gong to have three views now instead of the two?16:54
aelknerone additional for showing the same info, not updatable, not pdf?16:54
th1aThere is a form, a html report and a pdf report.16:55
aelknerok, that answers my question16:55
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th1aHaven't you been working on the HTML version of that?16:55
aelknernow, replaceafill, are you actively working on the form?16:55
aelknerwe should probably have these three views use a common base class16:56
replaceafillnot yet, we just agreed we're going to create it16:56
aelknerthen perhaps th1a's suggestion about me doing it would be a good idea16:56
aelknerthough i will not be able to do much this week16:56
th1aWhy don't we start with what you've been working on aelkner.16:57
aelkneri will be in arlington next week and could work closely with jelkner on delivering/fixing the form vew16:57
th1aIt should be done by then aelkner.16:57
aelkneras for my report, i missed the meeting thursday, but i did see the email about the changes to the skills views16:58
aelknerso i made those changes, plus changes agreed upon in the wednesday hangout that was just me and david, glenda16:59
aelknerso i closed the book on the skills views for now, adding a bug report for the cyclic relationship crash16:59
aelknerthat occurs if someone adds a child layer or node that causes that cyclic relationship to happen17:00
aelkneri'll need to add filtering the the table views to not have those children in the available table17:00
aelknerbut i'll come back to that after we've handled the more urgent customer needs17:01
aelknerso then i moved onto looking at the old cando for the SCR report17:01
aelkneras i reported above17:02
th1aOK.  So you've not started coding that.17:02
aelknerno, not yet, was just about to start coding the SCR html view17:02
th1aOK, jelkner you still there?17:03
aelkneri guess i should just let replaceafill handle the score view and not worry about reusing code with it17:03
jelkneri am17:03
th1aAre you working tomorrow too aelkner or is that the first day of vacation?17:03
aelknerno, i'm here today, and tomorrow morning, then i'm off on vacation17:03
th1aOK, why don't you do this:17:04
th1aWe've got the general task of reviewing the use case of exporting cando grades to the gradebook.17:04
th1ajelkner:  Does that work at all now?17:04
th1a(I don't think it does)17:04
th1aAs gradebook external activites.17:05
aelknerdid we establich what type of instance jelkner has?17:05
jelknerreplaceafill said no17:05
aelkneris it a buildout of trunk branches?17:05
jelknerreplaceafill set it up17:05
jelknerhe knows17:05
replaceafillth1a, the gradebook has external activities (and the form to create them i think)17:05
replaceafillth1a, we'd need the new cando to provide them17:06
th1aYes, but the CanDo side is probably not hooked up.17:06
* jelkner will check in later17:06
th1aPerhaps aelkner could get that done in a day and a half.17:06
jelkneri need to do teacher stuff now17:06
th1aAnd in the process add the option to export the total points.17:06
aelknerth1a, so shift away from the SCR and look into cando external activities?17:06
aelknermaking sure that cando scores can be exported to gradebook?17:07
aelkneri think that's what you're suggesting17:07
th1aI'd think you can get the external scores done in a day and a half.17:08
th1aProbably not the reports.17:09
aelknerthat sounds like a good idea17:09
th1aYou can ask your brother if you have specific questions (and/or me).17:09
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aelkneri'll let you know if i have any problems, but i think it should be fine17:11
th1aOK, thanks aelkner.17:12
replaceafilli also worked on some dwelsh/glenda's requests17:12
replaceafillat the end of the week i worked on the projects gradebook17:12
replaceafillusing the search pattern we've used for assigning course skills17:13
replaceafillth1a, could you explain the "intent" part when i said we'll be duplicating the skill in projects?17:13
replaceafillso they'll be different from the skills gradebook17:14
replaceafillmaybe i misunderstood something17:14
th1aIt just has to work this way:17:14
th1aIt is a one way relationship.  Scores entered in the project worksheet should show up in the skills worksheet, but not vice versa.17:15
th1aWIll it do that?17:15
replaceafillno, what i've done so far is just copying the skill into the project17:16
replaceafilli even labeled the link "Copy" :D17:16
replaceafillhhmm ok17:16
replaceafillmaybe it's just a matter of adding a subscriber or something17:17
replaceafillto update the skills gradebook grade17:17
th1aYeah, that'd probably do it.17:18
replaceafillanother thing i hit when i was trying to make the skills gradebook look as similar as possible to the projects one17:18
replaceafillwas the bug i commented yesterday17:18
* replaceafill goes get the link17:18
replaceafillplease see the attached screenshot17:19
replaceafilli think that's the way we should solve it17:19
replaceafillalthough later i thought:17:19
replaceafill"if we're displaying intids in the sheet name in the xls, which are unreadable to the user, we could just use 1,2,3,4,..."17:20
th1aOh, shit.17:21
th1aOh, that's just the sheet name?17:21
replaceafillin the xls, yes17:22
replaceafilli was suggesting using intids, for uniqueness and shortness17:22
replaceafillbut we could just use 1,2,3,417:22
replaceafillsince the real title of the worksheet will be in the first cells17:22
th1aWhatever you think is best.17:23
replaceafillah ok, i'll go that way then17:23
replaceafillit's an easy fix17:23
replaceafilli guess that's it from me17:23
replaceafilli'll work on jelkner's form today, right?17:23
replaceafillshould i work on the scr's too?17:23
aelkneryou may as well17:23
aelknerand you can come up with the base class that is used by all three views17:24
* replaceafill done17:24
th1aThanks replaceafill.17:25
yvlI was looking at various loose ends with our long running processes17:25
yvlone thing is to have a working demo, another - run production17:25
yvlI ended up with some scribblings on paper17:26
yvlI'll sort them out and send you a rough outline tomorrow morning17:26
th1aI'm not thinking this will be in the October release, even if it is "done."17:27
th1aDo you agree?17:27
yvlwe might fit that in17:27
yvlor we could shelve it for next release17:28
th1aIt just seems like it would be difficult to test enough.17:28
th1aAnd the bugs could be severe.17:28
yvla lot of testing would fall on "testing sysadmin side"17:28
th1aLike "SchoolTool stopped working."17:28
yvlas in - if configuration is good enough17:28
th1aIt is just too big of a change to jam in.17:29
yvlso, let's just finish up the main loose ends for now17:29
th1aIt isn't a comment on your work -- we just added a LOT of plumbing.17:30
yvlso it could be shelved for several months17:30
yvlthanks, th1a17:30
th1aI wouldn't say "shelved."17:30
yvlbut I do agree that it would be a bit unsafe to release it this soon17:30
th1aSo... don't slow down.  ;-)17:31
yvlok :D17:31
yvlbut I will email you a rough roadmap of what needs to be done17:32
yvlit will also be good for me ;)17:32
yvlas a disciplinary measure :)17:32
th1aOK.  At this point I don't think we're going to have to suck you into CanDo, but we'll see.17:33
th1aThanks yvl.17:33
menesishaven't read the log, oops17:34
menesisi was still busy with philippines17:34
menesisaltough there are only two tasks to be done currently17:34
menesisi looked at what you all were doing on schooltool17:35
th1aWe do need to get the CanDo packaging running.17:35
menesisalso started looking at the cando projects17:36
menesishappy to see no additional dependencies17:36
menesisI plan to start packaging them from wednesday on17:37
th1aOK.  Please.  I don't want that to turn into a severe bottleneck.17:37
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menesisI know17:38
menesisif yvl's work that added many dependencies is not to be merged yet17:38
menesisthen packaging schooltool trunk will not be complicated17:39
yvlmost of them should be already in Ubuntu, FYI17:39
yvlnot that it matters much for this release17:39
th1amenesis:  This definitely does not include yvl's work.17:39
menesisyvl: from what I saw all dependencies are in ubuntu, but still need to adapt the plumbing to be installed in the system17:40
menesisso I'll be ok17:40
menesisth1a: is it OK if finish making packages until Friday morning?17:41
th1aOK, thanks menesis.17:43
th1aSo the traveling part of my summer is over now.17:44
th1aSo I'll be back to my regular hours.17:44
th1aYou guys can send me invoices later in the week.17:44
replaceafillth1a, sorry i kept bothering you on your vacation time last week :)17:45
th1aOK, thanks gentlemen!17:46
yvlthanks guys17:46
th1aHave a good vacation aelkner.17:46
replaceafillthanks everybody17:46
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:46
yvlhave a great week!17:46
aelknerth1a, thanks17:47
aelknergreat week everyone17:47
replaceafillyou need to include schooltool.gradebook in the plugins directory17:50
aelknerah, the slug17:50
aelknercool, thanks17:51
replaceafillbe aware that the Gradebook button clashes the CanDo Gradebook button :)17:51
* replaceafill loves flourish because of that!17:51
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replaceafillth1a, should the new "score all worksheets at once" be available in the gradebook took?18:32
replaceafillor only in cando for now?18:32
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replaceafillhhmm unable to reproduce this:
replaceafilli wonder how did he manage to do it?18:57
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aelknerreplaceafill, don't know what to tell you about that one, seems like it will go away on its own19:15
aelknerbtw, regarding the external activities, i will making the change in schooltool.gradebook19:15
aelknernot in cando, right?19:16
replaceafilli thought we already had ext act in the gradebook19:16
aelknerthe idea is to get external activities set up in the gradebook19:16
replaceafilli remember seeing the journal19:16
aelkneri just need to add cando projects to the available sources drop down19:17
aelknerthing is, i see that you create a project in every section automaticaaly19:17
replaceafillyes, same gradebook approach19:17
replaceafillalthough i guess we need to revise that19:17
aelknerthat's a change from old cando19:17
aelknerthere, it worked based 0n the assignments19:18
replaceafillold assigments (kind of) -> new projects19:18
aelknerbut in this case, we will have all of these default Project1s appearing in the dropdown19:18
aelknerin the old case, only those sections that had assignments would show up19:19
replaceafillusers can rename them ;)19:19
aelknerbut users may not have a need for a project in 95% of the sections, for example19:19
replaceafilli wonder how many of those will use ext act :D19:20
aelknerwell, jelkner is the only customer of it, so far :)19:20
aelkneri guess he will be the one to complain about any sections he definitely does not want projects in19:20
replaceafillbut again, we could revise the "one project automatically created" part of cando19:21
replaceafillwe'd just need a new view saying "you have no projects"19:21
replaceafilland think if we could use the same approach in the gradebook19:21
replaceafilland get rid of that ensureAtLeastOne stuff19:21
th1aaelkner:  Why are you asking replaceafill this?19:22
aelkneri was asking about the external activity source19:22
aelknerin the old cando, only section assignments would show up in the dropdown19:23
aelknernow we don't have assignments, instead projects, but they get autocreated19:23
aelknerthat's a significant behaviour change form the point of view of the user19:23
th1aWhat do you mean autocreated?19:24
aelknerjsut as Sheet1 gets autocreated in the regular gradebook19:24
aelknerProject1 is also getting auto-created19:24
aelknerit happen the first time you ask for the IActivities adapter i believe19:25
th1aI didn't get an email about that bug for some reason replaceafill.19:25
replaceafillth1a, about the duplication one?19:25
* replaceafill goes sees the language of the bug :D19:25
aelknerhere's another thing:19:25
th1aaelkner:  It is just something the user might need to ignore?19:25
aelknerwhen the external activity add form comes up, the cando sources have to appear in the dropdown19:26
aelknerand in order to do that, each section for the user has to be visited19:27
aelknerlooking for the projects in those sections19:27
aelknerin so visiting. all of these Project1 projects will get created19:27
aelknerin the model, then presented to the user as choices19:27
replaceafillwhy aelkner?19:27
th1aYou can only import activities from the same section.19:27
replaceafillif you deploy the ext act in a single section?19:27
aelknerth1a, if that's true, then i'm worried for nothing19:29
replaceafillaelkner, it's worked like that since the beginning iirc19:30
th1aYou're worried about nothing.  ;-)19:30
aelkneryeah, sorry, jumped the gun there19:30
th1aBut yes, basically I think the option should be for:19:30
th1a* total score (as jelkneer wanted)19:31
th1a* % of skills with a passing score or higher (of total number of skills)19:31
th1a* per-project total score19:31
th1a* per-project % (as above)19:32
th1aWe can start there.19:32
replaceafillwhat's the difference between 1 and 3?19:32
aelknerwell wait, don't we have just the one source19:32
aelknerone source per project19:32
replaceafillaelkner, the iexternalactivities adapter could create two sources for a single project19:33
replaceafillor 3 or 4...19:33
replaceafillas long as it assigns unique sources to all of them19:33
replaceafilli mean, ids :)19:33
th1a1 and 2 are for all the skills in the section.19:34
aelkneri'm looking at CanDoExternalActivity right now19:35
aelknerso it adaprts a Skilldriver to IExternalACtivities19:35
replaceafillth1a, ah, the skills gradebook?19:35
aelknerwhose interface is defined to have getGrade(student)19:35
replaceafillaelkner, correct19:35
aelkneri suppose we could expand the interface to have more methods, is that your thinking?19:36
replaceafillaelkner, no19:36
replaceafillsee CanDoExternalActivities19:36
replaceafilldef getExternalActivities19:36
replaceafillit traverses the skilldrivers, right?19:36
replaceafillwhat i'm saying it's that it could produce two external activities instead of just one19:37
replaceafillfor every skilldriver19:37
aelkneri see now19:38
aelknerbut the use intids19:38
aelknerwhich are one per skilldriver19:38
replaceafillyou could use any other method to create the id for the ext act19:39
replaceafilllike prepending source, and so on19:39
aelknerso what have we decided on the new per-project sources:19:46
aelkner1) total score19:46
aelkner2) % of skills passing19:47
aelkneris that it?19:47
aelknerreplaceafill, but i still don't get what IExternalActivity(skillset) does and its getGrade19:49
aelkneri mean, do we need a new implementation of CanDoExternalActivity called something else19:49
aelknerbut provides the same interface19:50
aelkneri'm referring to this inside the for loop:19:50
aelknerexternal_activity = IExternalActivity(skilldriver)19:50
aelknerwould we change that to be an adapter call that receives the tuple of adapters19:51
aelknerand register a new one call CandoExternalPercentComplete?19:51
replaceafillsomething like that, yes19:52
aelknerwhich would also satisfy IExternalActivity, thus having getGrade19:52
aelknerok, good, i'm one the right track then19:52
replaceafillaelkner, imho the big difference between the old and new implementation is that now it should be possible to register multiple external activity adapters for a single source19:54
replaceafillsource = project19:55
replaceafilland the IExternalActivities adapter just looks into those19:55
replaceafillin old cando we only had one :D19:55
replaceafill(external activity)19:55
replaceafillth1a, zyt?20:49
replaceafillth1a, remember we added a Skills Pop-up to list course skills20:49
replaceafilli was thinking if we should add the same for the projects gradebook20:50
replaceafillbut that lists only skills added to the projects20:50
replaceafilli'm just trying to make the gradebooks look uniform btw20:51
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dreichhey, replaceafill?21:01
replaceafillhello dreich21:01
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dreichdo you have a minute?21:02
dreichwe're talking to jeff about pyquiz stuff21:02
dreichand there's a thing or two that would benefit from your attention, I think21:02
dreichwe restructured the system for how subquizzes are taken21:03
dreichand are now having a few failures21:04
dreichof ftests21:05
dreichalso of the site21:05
pgulleythe problem is that they're inconsistant21:06
pgulleyand we can't trace them21:06
replaceafillhave you checked the logs of the server?21:06
dreichthis isn't pushed to the deployment server yet21:07
dreichjust local21:07
replaceafillhow can i help?21:10
replaceafilli don't know how subquizzes work btw21:10
dreichsorry, i think I might have figured it out21:13
dreichjust a minute21:13
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dreichyes, I got it21:21
dreichthanks though!21:21
replaceafillglad to hear :)21:21
dreichit was because i'm scanning by id at a point21:22
dreichbut both the subquiz and the questions within the subquiz had the same id21:22
dreichbecause they were created at the same time21:22
dreicha bit tricky to figure out21:22
dreichfixed now though21:22
th1ahrm... is apparently going through one of its periodic deaths.21:42
th1a(although the web site is still up)21:42
replaceafillhow do you notice the hiccups?21:42
replaceafillbecause i also see the site up21:42
th1aWell, this time I got a bunch of logcheck errors spewing into my mailbox and then the mails.21:43
th1aSo maybe it rebooted?  Or menesis rebooted it?21:43
th1aOr something?21:43
replaceafilli can ssh into it too21:43
replaceafilltop - 14:43:29 up 51 min,21:43
replaceafillit probably was rebooted21:43
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th1aCan you check to see if the disks filled up?21:48
replaceafillit's 74%21:48
replaceafillthat's the first thing i thought :D21:49
aelknerreplaceafill, how do i add a skill to a project?21:56
replaceafillyou can create it21:56
aelknerthe add skill page has XXX in the title21:57
replaceafilli'm cleaning that right now21:57
replaceafilland removing the catalog search21:57
replaceafill(it takes ages to load the page) :(21:57
aelkneri noticed, glad it wasn't just me21:57
replaceafillthat catalog commit was an accident on my part21:57
replaceafillmy bad21:57
aelkneri'm still having the long load time for starting the server21:57
aelknerdo you have any idea why i would have that when using the welsh skills, i.e., many21:58
replaceafillnot really21:58
aelknerit takes about 20 seconds to start cando21:58
replaceafillthe vps takes around 10-15 though21:58
aelknerso, while you're working on the add skill page, how can i get skills added to a project another way?21:59
replaceafillthe second tab21:59
replaceafillhold on, let me get it22:00
aelknerah, cool22:00
aelknerit worked22:00
replaceafillxxx create new skill xxx22:00
aelknerthat will be fine for my purposes, thanks22:00
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