IRC log of #schooltool for Monday, 2012-06-18

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th1ahi aelkner, menesis, replaceafill.16:31
replaceafillgood morning/afternoon16:31
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th1aWould you like to start us off replaceafill?16:33
th1ahi yvl.16:33
yvlhi guys16:33
replaceafilllast week i worked on styling the third-nav for cando16:33
replaceafillusing the whole area for the skillset title16:34
replaceafillyou can see it as teacher001 at
replaceafillalso, i changed the CanDo tab so now it redirects to the skills gradebook, if it's available16:35
replaceafillor to the projects gradebook if the section doesnt have skills assigned16:36
replaceafilli changed the navigators (dropdowns in the left sidebar) to do the same too16:36
replaceafilland i started to change projects to select skills instead of creating them16:37
replaceafillso th1a i think here is where we coulde use the "skill browser widget"16:37
th1aWell, yes.16:38
replaceafillbut i was looking at my notes from the sprint and i couldn't find anything on it16:38
replaceafilldid we discuss it?16:38
th1aNot in any real detail.16:38
replaceafillmaybe we can meet after the meeting to start on that?16:39
th1aI think we have to.16:39
replaceafillone more news16:39
replaceafilli got an email from the ministry of education last week16:39
replaceafillwe were supposed to visit a school in Chalchuapa that will be part of the pilot16:40
replaceafillbut they told me their IT department in charge of their SIS development wants to meet with me16:40
replaceafilli hope they don't want to shut down the pilot :(16:40
th1aEither way they have to be a part of the process.16:41
replaceafillok, i think that's it from me16:41
th1aThanks replaceafill.16:41
replaceafilldoes anyone has an xls we could use to import the verso skills?16:42
replaceafilli'd like to see the third-nav with real verso skillsets16:43
aelkneri can email you the file i generated from the verso db16:44
replaceafillaelkner, please16:44
aelknergive me a moment, i',m emailing tom a set of xls file for a different demo16:45
replaceafillaelkner, sure, thanks16:45
th1aYou're up aelkner.16:46
aelknerreplaceafill, i sent the email, will arrive in a moment16:48
aelknerok, so after trying and then giving up on the copy to clipboard idea, i moved onto creating schooltool.virginia16:49
aelkneri pushed its first version to launchpad16:49
aelknerit works as part of the sandbox i have set up with schooltool as the main package16:50
aelknerbut i was unable to do the make of the package from its own directory16:50
aelknerthe thing on does when one only branches the package and does make16:50
aelknerwhich results in the rest of the dependent packages to get downloaded as eggs16:51
aelknerwell, the cando egg download failed, so i'm guessing we never made a cando egg?16:51
aelkneranyway, that will have to be sorted out when we make a schooltool.virginia package16:52
aelknerbut for now, it works in the sandbox, and i loaded it into my demo instance16:52
aelknerth1a, if you'd like we could try the files together after the meeting16:53
th1aTry which files?16:53
aelknersorry, i sent them to you just now, but perhaps the email hasn't arrived16:53
aelkneri sent it to your gmail, so actually, you should have it already16:54
th1aYou mean, import them?16:54
th1aTest the import?16:54
aelknerbut we should also look at the section_enrollment.xls file together16:54
aelkneroh, and it's not a csv importer anymore, it's an xls importer16:55
aelkneri couldn't use the old code as it was since it used an entirely different set of assumptions16:56
th1aOK, this is the cando specific one.16:56
aelkneryeah, and it has to be imported from the year context16:56
th1aOK, yes we should go over that later.16:57
aelknerthis is the file that we didn't want to insist they change much, so asking them to put the year16:57
aelknerat the top like we do with teachers.xls and students.xls was not something i thought i would do16:57
th1aSeems reasonable.16:57
aelknerit does the section matching (for reimporting) by section title and description16:58
aelknerand it uses the same logic replaceafill used to limit the search of section to that of the cours16:58
aelknerwhich is definitely faster than searching every section in the sections container for title, description match16:58
aelknermenesis, could you please branch schooltool.virginia and run make to see what i mean about the egg error?16:59
aelkneralso, can we update launchpad to allow bzr branch of lp:schooltool.cando as well as lp:schooltool.virginia17:00
menesisno cando egg?17:00
aelknerright now one has to include the schooltool-owners path17:00
aelknermenesis, just do the make and you'll see17:01
aelknermy mistake may be in how i added schooltool.cando to the setup.py17:01
menesisthere are certainly no cando or virginia eggs in our eggs repository17:01
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aelknerwell, that would explain the error i guess17:02
menesisso unless you specify the path to develop = ../schooltool.cando17:02
menesisor add find-links17:02
menesisthe eggs won't be found17:02
aelknerwell, i don't need it for now, i guess we can sort this out when we create the packages17:03
menesisyou can create and egg with 'make release'17:04
menesisand upload with 'make upload'17:04
menesisif you have permissions on . replaceafill should  have.17:05
aelknerare you saying you're not handling the package management issues for these particular packages?17:06
* th1a gets the feeling that aelkner and menesis are not talking the same language.17:07
aelknerperhaps, so i'll just let th1a tell me what he wants me to do specifically17:08
th1aWe need to be able to deliver a small set of customizations to virginia, via a deb.17:08
th1aThat's pretty much it.17:08
aelknerdo you want me to get into deb creating tasks?17:09
aelknerthat was my point17:10
th1aWell, menesis, what does aelkner need to do?17:10
menesisit is the first time I have heard about schooltool.virginia17:10
menesisso no, I am not creating any packages17:11
menesisalso, if you need a schooltool.cando, schooltool.virginia, or any other project, you can create a new project yourself17:11
menesisdon't need me for that17:11
th1amenesis, you're not being helpful at this point.17:12
menesisif you need me to create a .deb17:12
menesisthen ok17:12
th1aThat is the issue.17:12
menesisI will add it to my todo list17:12
menesisbut so far I have done nothing about the new cando17:13
th1aIn the meantime, what does aelkner need to worry about?17:13
th1amenesis:  Yes, we'll have to start worrying about packaging CanDo in general soon.17:13
th1aWithin the next month.17:13
aelknerin the meantime, we can use a sandbox for jelkner's instance, right th1a?17:14
th1aFor jelkner yes.17:14
aelknerbe is our power, alpha user17:14
menesishe uses checkouts or debs?17:15
aelknerwho will be joining the main cte site after the alpha usage this summer17:15
aelknerreplaceafill, you always set jelkner up with a sandbox, right?17:15
replaceafillyes, usually17:15
aelknerit helped you get updates to him faster17:15
replaceafillaelkner, correct17:16
aelknerthat's what i always do17:16
aelknerit's only wth virginia statewide, live in the fall that needs the packages17:16
aelknerbut we will want to give them a beta run with welsh early august17:16
aelknerbut jelkner should be a helpful alpha17:17
th1aOf course.17:17
aelknerok, that's my report, we can go over the demo instance after the meeting17:17
menesisaelkner: I have checked out both schooltool.cando and schooltool.virginia17:18
menesisran make release and make upload17:18
menesisnow the egg of the last revision is on ftp.schooltool.org17:19
aelknerso everything i did worked out ok, that's good17:19
menesisso now `make` will work17:19
aelknercool, thanks17:19
menesisbut of course download the last egg that was uploaded17:20
menesisif you need a nightly build I can add it to buildbot17:20
menesisbut I think a sandbox with the needed branches is better17:21
aelknerthat's what we will do for now, but thanks17:22
th1aOK.  Thanks aelkner.17:22
th1aAnything to report menesis?  Philippines project done for now?17:23
menesismaking a release today17:23
menesisbut there is another two-week sprint for more features17:23
menesisnothing else17:25
th1arelease for us or them?17:25
menesisfor philippines17:27
menesisthen schooltool17:27
th1aOK.  Make sure to get me the release notes.17:27
th1a(for us)17:27
th1aThanks menesis.17:28
yvladded "downloads" to our selenium tests17:29
yvlwas a bit of a PITA, but it works - at least for chrome17:29
yvldidn't do that for the rest though17:29
yvlI'll commit those tomorrow along with some dev instructions17:30
yvlthe plan then is to look into long running processes17:30
yvlthat means some experimenting is in order :)17:30
yvlif that's ok?17:30
th1aI think it is necessary.17:31
* yvl done17:32
* th1a is seriously undercaffeinated.17:32
th1aaelkner:  Can we talk imports in a half an hour?17:32
th1areplaceafill: can we talk in 3 or 4 hours?  Sooner?17:33
replaceafillth1a, your call, i'll be here17:33
th1aI'll be fine once I get some coffee.17:33
aelknerth1a, yes17:34
aelkner11:00, then?17:34
th1aSee you then.17:34
th1aThanks guys.17:34
aelknercya then17:34
* th1a drops the bag of gravel.17:34
aelknerthanks everyone, cya wed17:35
yvlhave a good week, guys17:35
replaceafillthanks everybody17:35
replaceafillaelkner, i got the skills xls, thanks17:35
aelknerreplaceafill, cool, let me know how t works out17:35
aelkneryvl, thanks for getting that file download in for export testing17:35
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th1ahi aelkner.18:07
th1aOK, so we've got this spreadsheet...18:08
th1aDo the student names actually do anything?18:09
aelknerthe following is ignored:18:09
aelknerbuilding name, student and teacher first, last names18:09
aelkneralso, end period18:09
aelkneronly start period is used for building the title18:10
aelknerdwelsh may have some adjustments to this when we meet with him18:10
aelknernow that we have terms, the flourish ui, etc.18:10
aelknerhe will probably have a different feel for what needs to go in the section title and description18:10
aelknerthe important thing is: once we nail them down, it will be costly to change18:11
aelkneri mean, as soon as we go live and need to reimport18:11
th1aThat's their problem.18:12
th1aYou should add start and end term.18:12
aelkneri'll try to elp dwelsh avoid any regrets in his choices18:12
aelknergood that you mentioned that, i was going to point out18:13
aelknerthe term was always in the title, but now we have multiple terms18:13
aelkneryour suggestion to having the start, end term would take away the confusion18:14
aelknerif all the sections that are linked have the same title, that could be easier to like18:14
aelknerbtw, have you already gone ahead and done the imports on my demo instance,18:15
aelknerbecause you sound familiar with the results18:15
th1aI've not done it.  Does it work?18:16
aelknerhow did you know what the section titles had?18:16
aelknerno, we can do the imports now together18:16
th1aAt this point, I'm not trying to guess what Welsh wants and don't really want to get in the middle of it.18:17
aelknerthat's fine, i can handle those details18:17
aelknerit's a waste of your time, more like the stuff that replaceafill will discuss with the SIS guy in El Salvador18:17
th1aWe are, however, going to have to start with the section imports in core again.18:18
aelknerhow's that?18:18
th1aTo be clear, what we've been looking at is just for VA, right?18:19
aelknerthe section_enrollment.xls file goes with the Import VA Sections action link in schoolyear view18:19
aelknerthe rest of the xls files i sent you are standard schooltool core18:20
aelkneri didn18:20
aelknerdidn't send you the skills xls files this time, but we can go over those, too18:20
th1ano, that's fine atm.18:20
aelknerit's the enrollment one that is special to VA18:21
th1aBut for core SchoolTool I think we have to follow through with making separate sheets to create the sections and to add students to them.18:21
aelknerah, good that you mention that, too18:21
aelknerthe old cando import did two things the new one doesn't18:22
aelknerit added persons and it added them to groups18:22
aelknernow that we have the core students and teachers sheets18:22
aelknerwe will require them to use those, thus setting up the groups anyway18:23
aelkneralso, the teachers need to be set up with the teacher_id set18:23
aelknerso that the enrollment importer can match teachers18:23
aelknerthe teachers will have a separate username that looks like email18:24
aelknerbut the students will have the same username as student id18:24
aelknerthe advantage of this choice is that matching teachers was cheep enough18:25
aelknerby building a dictionary of all persons in the teachers group by teacher_id18:25
aelknerbut the students are so numerous, not needing to visit them all is helpful18:25
aelknerit just looks for the username which a just a lookup on the container keys18:26
th1aSo... is there a problem or question here?18:26
aelknerit depends, if you wanted to look at it before we meet with dwelsh18:27
aelknerfor instance, i should change the logic to have all section titles of linked sections be the same18:27
aelkneras you had rightly suggested18:27
aelknerif you'd like to just have me import the files myself and you can then look at the instance18:28
aelkneryou could have a chance to anticipate what welsh might complain about18:28
aelknerit's up to you18:28
th1aWhat is the question?18:30
aelknerwhether you wanted me to present this stuff to you now or for the first time when welsh first sees it wed18:32
th1aYou can present it to Welsh.  I'm going to try to stay out of it.18:32
aelknerok, that's fine18:33
aelknerbut good suggestion about having all the section titles match18:33
aelkneri'll just have to change the logic to include add term matching the the title and description matching18:33
aelknerwhat would you like me to work on next?18:34
aelkneri can look at the file download stuff and look into export functional testing18:34
th1aAs I was saying, splitting section creation and enrollment into two steps.18:35
aelkneroh, that, sorry, i forgot about that detail of last wed hangout, i remember now18:35
aelknerare we sure about that, does that mean no more section reimporting using title, description match18:36
aelkneri'm not sure what we decided there18:36
th1aAh, this is one of those difficult aelkner context switches.18:37
aelknerok, look, the issue is this?18:37
aelknerwe have this enrollment importer for virginia that builds section titles and descriptions18:37
aelknerand only adds new sections if they don't already exists18:37
aelknerin other words it's reimport-capable based on section title, descrption match18:38
th1aNo, not at all.18:38
th1aWe're completely switching context aelkner.18:38
aelknerplease establish what that context is for me18:39
th1aWe're giving VA what they want so we can ignore their process completely now.18:39
aelknerok, so getting back to the general user, ok18:39
aelknerso what were saying about that then?18:40
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th1aSo we're not building titles, descriptions, id's, or any of that.18:40
th1aThey're just columns in the spreadsheet.18:40
aelknerFlatSectionsTable expects ids, yes18:40
th1aSo starting with FlatSectionsTable, we need to take the actual students out.18:41
aelknerand the user sets the titles and descriptions, yes18:41
aelknerah, you want to split up FST18:41
th1aAnd I think we should add start and end terms instead of the previous/next columns.18:41
aelknerah, nice, so no need to match up ids there18:42
aelknerso we have the one sheet that has one row per section, right?18:42
aelknercourses are already a comma-delimitted id list18:43
th1aWell... we have to decide if we want to make them one row per section strictly or have some multi-row things.18:43
th1aLike to allow multiple instructors.18:43
th1aOr we can just use more comma-delimited cells.18:44
aelknerteachers could be comma, yes18:44
th1a(which I'm ok with I think)18:44
aelknerwhat about resources, for building, for instance18:44
aelknerthat could be comma-delimitted18:44
th1aI think that's probably just as easy if not easier for schools to generate if necessary.18:46
th1aDon't you?18:46
aelkneri believe you're right18:46
aelknerthe only thing that leaves is students and timetable18:47
aelknerwe could have that be in a separate table18:47
aelkneror two separate sheets, one for enrollment, one for timetabling18:47
aelknerkeep it cleaner that way?18:47
aelknerso let's take this opportunity to come up with good sheet names18:48
aelknerFlatSectionsTable, my invention, is an unfortunate one18:48
aelknerthe issue was not matching old sections sheets18:49
aelknerthe unfortunate thing about the old sections sheets is that the sheet name matching18:49
aelknerwas defined as 'anything that starts with Sections'18:50
aelknerbecause we haven't deprecated those old sheets, we still need to honor the match18:50
th1aAll Sections ?18:50
aelkneractually, i just checked, it's any sheet name that starts with Section18:51
aelknerthe sample data includes a convention for have Section{Term name}18:52
aelknercome to think of it, i wasn't gong to suggest this before, but perhaps now would be ok18:52
aelknerwe could continue to match Section{*}18:52
aelkneras long as we exclude matching anything else we come up with18:53
aelknerfor the new sections sheets, i mean18:53
aelknerthe only danger, which i now realize is minute, ony thoeretical18:53
aelkneris if the user choses one of the Section{Timeables}, etc. names18:53
aelknerfor an old style sections sheet18:54
aelknerbut we may find that no user ends up using the old sheets18:54
aelknerand even if they do, they'll like choose something other than SectionTimeables or SectionEnrollment18:54
aelknerso what i'm saying is that we can name these sheets anything we want, i'll just fix the old section sheet match logic18:55
th1a"All Sections" ?18:56
aelkneri'm not thrilled with all18:56
aelknerhow about Sections, SectionTimetables and SectionEnrollment?18:56
aelknerno old section sheets will be able to be names as such, problem solved18:57
aelknerno, the second two sheets are simple, right18:57
aelkneryear, term, section id, timetable, day, period18:58
aelknerfor the first one18:58
aelkneryear, term, section id, student id for the second one18:58
aelknerclean, i like it18:59
th1aOK.  I think we're on the same page.19:00
th1aThat's your mission.19:00
aelkneri'll so that next19:01
aelknerbesides making the change to section title for welsh19:01
aelknerwhen we meet with him on wed, be patient with his reaction to the sections view19:01
aelknerthat's where you told him we would improve the ui if we needed19:01
aelknerok, thanks, i should be able to show you the new sheets on wed19:02
th1aCool.  Thanks aelkner.19:07
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replaceafilldo we have xls with "real" cando courses + skills?20:01
replaceafilli mean, like the ones dwelsh has at the ACC20:01
th1aThat maps the skillsets to courses?20:01
replaceafillAuto Body Technology I, etc20:01
replaceafillth1a, could you please fwd those20:02
replaceafilli'm building one from scratch, but it's kind of difficult20:02
th1aOf course.20:03
replaceafillwe have 4 Repairing the Outer Body Panel skillsets20:03
th1aI just have to find it....20:03
th1aYes, I see.20:04
th1aNo, we don't have it.20:04
replaceafillok, i'll keep setting it up manually then20:04
th1aHm... now, do they correspond by course title or something?20:04
th1aNo, for the love of god no.20:05
replaceafilli can identify them by __name__ of the skillset20:05
th1aI think that in theory the "course" in the skill tree has a title that should correspond to the course title.20:05
th1aOr something.20:05
th1aCan't we just ask Welsh about it Wednesday?20:06
replaceafillsure, i just wanted to have something to test projects with20:06
replaceafillsomething "real"20:06
replaceafillit's only like 7 skillsets20:06
replaceafillit's just confusing to do it20:06
replaceafillthat's why i asked20:07
th1aI think we should be able to write a script to do it automagically.20:07
replaceafillah definitely20:07
replaceafillbut that vs setting up manually...20:07
replaceafilli'm done with the auto body techonology skills20:10
replaceafillthat's all i needed20:10
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th1areplaceafill:  Should we discuss skill browsing now, or are you getting ready to go eat?20:26
replaceafillnot really, we can talk now20:26
replaceafilljust let me finish my test course and put it on the vps20:27
replaceafillCanDo tab20:36
replaceafillAdd -> Skill20:36
replaceafilland there's where we need the browser, right?20:37
th1aYes, although we may keep the add functionality around in some form.20:37
replaceafillah ok, we could use a third-nav, like in the gradebook (add activity, add linked column, add external activity)20:38
replaceafillone to create and one to browse20:38
replaceafillbut i have no idea about the best way to "browse" the skills tree20:39
replaceafillor what kind of "widgets" to use20:39
th1aOK, so...20:39
th1aSearch has to be a big part of it.20:40
th1aI agree with welsh that for the most part you don't really want to browse from the root anyhow.20:40
replaceafilland this "widget" has to somehow use the node/layers hierarchy, right?20:41
replaceafill(if they exist)20:41
th1aThat is the problem of course.20:42
th1a I think what we'll need to do is not make it like a tree view but more something that is always focused on the present context.20:42
th1aYou are HERE: parents: children:20:42
th1aNot foo > bar > baz  tree walking (because it isn't a tree)20:43
replaceafillgot it20:43
th1aAnd if we want default starting points, we can grab the document roots.20:44
th1aSo you can start with the search -- this should be somewhat more sophisticated/wide ranging than most of ours.20:45
th1ae.g., looking at the text of the description, etc.20:45
th1aSo maybe you need to set up some catalogs, etc.20:45
replaceafilllooking at every field in the skills, right?20:45
replaceafillok, step 1, search skills only by any fields using just text search20:46
replaceafilli'll start with that and show it to you20:46
replaceafillunless you want to continue discussing the rest of the implementation :)20:47
th1aNo that's a good start.20:48
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